Members No Nicolaitans Posted April 12, 2016 Members Share Posted April 12, 2016 I was listening to a program yesterday, and the gentleman was talking about the curse that resulted from sin. Rather than taking the opportunity to expound upon sin and its consequences, he instead expounded upon how the results of the curse were actually good for man. Such as... Man would have to work hard...by the sweat of his face. This is actually a good thing, because working hard exercises the body. If we didn't work hard, our muscles would get flabby, and hard work is good for our all-over health. Childbirth would be painful for women. He actually didn't even talk about the pain of childbirth; he just talked about pain in general. Pain is a good thing, because it's a warning sign. If we didn't have pain, we wouldn't go to the doctor to get the treatment we need to get better. There was more, but you get the idea. Maybe this is looking for "every cloud has a silver lining"? I don't know...all I could think of was...if man hadn't sinned, our muscles wouldn't get flabby, our bodies wouldn't need exercise, we wouldn't experience pain, and we wouldn't have to go to the doctor to get better. wretched, OLD fashioned preacher, heartstrings and 1 other 4 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members heartstrings Posted April 12, 2016 Members Share Posted April 12, 2016 My thinking on this, is that if we had no pain, no thorns and thistles, sweaty faces, no trials and tribulations, suffering or death, we would be in a state of Godless utopia. We wouldn't need to pray or even need God at all. So, yes, I think these things can work for our good. The very nature of "nature" (hey..I made that up) hehe, shows us all that, yet nature displays good and perfection too; it teaches us there IS something much better than the troubles we have in this world. Just my .02 I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the LORD do all these things. Isaiah 45;7 1Timothy115 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members No Nicolaitans Posted April 12, 2016 Author Members Share Posted April 12, 2016 Maybe that's what he was talking about. I didn't hear the end of his program, so I don't know how he may have closed it out. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Genevanpreacher Posted October 16, 2016 Members Share Posted October 16, 2016 On 4/12/2016 at 5:04 PM, No Nicolaitans said: I was listening to a program yesterday, and the gentleman was talking about the curse that resulted from sin. Rather than taking the opportunity to expound upon sin and its consequences, he instead expounded upon how the results of the curse were actually good for man. Such as... Man would have to work hard...by the sweat of his face. This is actually a good thing, because working hard exercises the body. If we didn't work hard, our muscles would get flabby, and hard work is good for our all-over health. Childbirth would be painful for women. He actually didn't even talk about the pain of childbirth; he just talked about pain in general. Pain is a good thing, because it's a warning sign. If we didn't have pain, we wouldn't go to the doctor to get the treatment we need to get better. There was more, but you get the idea. Maybe this is looking for "every cloud has a silver lining"? I don't know...all I could think of was...if man hadn't sinned, our muscles wouldn't get flabby, our bodies wouldn't need exercise, we wouldn't experience pain, and we wouldn't have to go to the doctor to get better. My thought here is - we would've been workers anyway. We would just have had better attitudes! Also - pain? Who said we wouldn't have pain? And doctors? What would we need one for? That's a little funny for a guy to preach. I shall insert a 'lol' here - lol. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members ... Posted October 16, 2016 Members Share Posted October 16, 2016 (edited) (Genesis 3:16-19) "Unto the woman he said, I will greatly multiply thy sorrow and thy conception; in sorrow thou shalt bring forth children; and thy desire shall be to thy husband, and he shall rule over thee. {17} And unto Adam he said, Because thou hast hearkened unto the voice of thy wife, and hast eaten of the tree, of which I commanded thee, saying, Thou shalt not eat of it: cursed is the ground for thy sake; in sorrow shalt thou eat of it all the days of thy life; {18} Thorns also and thistles shall it bring forth to thee; and thou shalt eat the herb of the field; {19} In the sweat of thy face shalt thou eat bread, till thou return unto the ground; for out of it wast thou taken: for dust thou art, and unto dust shalt thou return." As far as I can see, working hard and sorrow in childbearing were consequences for sin, not rewards. While I agree that, in our sinful condition, hard work is good for us, it is still a consequence. We must also be careful not to re-write God's words. He said that that He would multiply women's sorrow in childbirth, not pain. For certain, childbirth is a very painful process, but, for all we know, it could have always been meant to be painful. Perhaps that pain would have a more pleasant or joyful experience had we not fallen. It also says that, "in sorrow shalt thou eat of it...." We are not in pain when we eat things we have grown are we? However, even if we did interpret the word "sorrow" as meaning "pain," that would mean that pain already existed before the fall (if God was going to multiply it) and would not have been an outcome (positive or negative) of the fall. I do not believe that we are given any cause to believe that sin is good for us. If it was, I think God would have said, "It is not good for man to be without sin." and then would have described how He gave us sin in a similar manner to how He gave Adam a wife. As it stands, Genesis does not recount God gifting us with sin; rather, it recounts us making a conscious choice to willingly engage in sinful disobedience. I believe that God knew that the fall was inevitable simply because of the fact that He gave us free will. Free will is necessary for true love to exist. If I tell you that I love you, the only reason that it means anything to you is the fact that you know that there was always the option of me not loving you. If that option was not there, the fact that I love you would be meaningless. Unfortunately, along with the freedom to make loving and godly choices, comes the ability to make hurtful and evil choices. Even though our fall was inevitable, it does not mean that we should call it good. It reminds me of when Jesus said, (Luke 17:1) "Then said he unto the disciples, It is impossible but that offences will come: but woe unto him, through whom they come!" Edited October 16, 2016 by Brother Stafford Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members ... Posted October 16, 2016 Members Share Posted October 16, 2016 (edited) On 4/12/2016 at 5:49 PM, heartstrings said: My thinking on this, is that if we had no pain, no thorns and thistles, sweaty faces, no trials and tribulations, suffering or death, we would be in a state of Godless utopia. We wouldn't need to pray or even need God at all. This implies that, before the fall, Adam and Eve were living in a godless utopia without the need of God at all. This further implies that, since there will be no sin in Heaven, that it too, will be a godless utopia and that we will have no need for Him. Since such statements are considered heresy in any biblically sound, Christian conversation, would you care to clarify your meaning or recant those things? Edited October 16, 2016 by Brother Stafford Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members heartstrings Posted October 17, 2016 Members Share Posted October 17, 2016 Adam and Eve once lived in a sinless state. Adam had fellowship with God. But when Adam sinned, he died spiritually and all former fellowship was broken. So, now, the human race is in a fallen world full of suffering, tribulations and death. Without these things, it is doubtful that anyone could see their desperate need of a savior. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moderators Ukulelemike Posted October 17, 2016 Moderators Share Posted October 17, 2016 So, exercise is good, so we don't get flabby. Except I would assume that our bodies deteriorating and getting flabby, or sick, or experienceing pain, are a RESULT OF SIN!. So, if we hadn't sinned, we would be employed, in the things of God, and we would not be flabby or experience pain, because those are caused by sin and there would be no sin. It isn't rocket surgery here, folks. Also, Adam was properly employed before sin-he tended the garden. Assumably Eve helped in that. Now I admit, when I look at the beauty of the earth, I am always in awe at it-even here in the desert, there is beauty and abundant life. So I can scarce imagine the same place before the curse effected it: no winter, no snow, no death, and with the exception of the water, ALL of it inhabitable, unlike today when maybe 30% is inhabitable, and much of that is harsh and difficult. ... 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members No Nicolaitans Posted October 17, 2016 Author Members Share Posted October 17, 2016 Revelation 21:4 And God shall wipe away all tears from their eyes; and there shall be no more death, neither sorrow, nor crying, neither shall there be any more pain: for the former things are passed away. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members *Light* Posted March 21, 2017 Members Share Posted March 21, 2017 That is a promising and beautiful passage of scripture (Revelation 21:4). All the suffering and pain in this world, even if it lasts for 100 years, is infinitely smaller than the eternal honor and glory that awaits us. I don't think that we can experience glory and honor in the way the bible describes it without the fall of man, and the existence of pain (physical and emotional). And I don't think that we would know what it truly means to be morally upright or "good" without the existence of evil. The crucifixion of Jesus would seem like nothing more than the triumphant of evil in the world's view, but without it, we as believers may never know what the meaning of the Greatest Love is. There is no love greater than God sending His one and only Son to die for the sins of man. And I don't think there could have been any other way for God to have put His greatest love on display. To them who by patient continuance in well doing seek for glory and honour and immortality, eternal life: (Romans 2:7) And we know that all things work together for good to them that love God, to them who are the called according to his purpose. (Romans 8:28) No Nicolaitans 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members 1611mac Posted March 23, 2017 Members Share Posted March 23, 2017 Conditions prior to the fall are so foreign to us I don't think we can even begin to understand it. For example, I don't think Adam and Even needed to exercise to "keep fit." Their bodies would stay fit and stay "perfect." In an un-fallen world things are perfect. We just are not able to think that way to envision what it was like. In short... we fail to fully appreciate exactly what happened when sin came to mankind. No Nicolaitans 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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