Members Genevanpreacher Posted April 12, 2016 Author Members Share Posted April 12, 2016 5 hours ago, Pastor Scott Markle said: Brother Pittman, Do you accept the example of the publican in Luke 18:13-14 who called upon the Lord God to be merciful unto him a sinner, and who was justified before the Lord God thereby? Do you accept the example of the malefactor in Luke 23:42-43 who called upon the Lord Jesus Christ to remember him (with mercy), and who was "saved" thereby? Really??? Is that a foundational point of logic that you hold for all doctrinal promise and precept in God's Word? You do realize that I can provide a number of such promises and precepts from God's Word wherein no specific example is recorded in Scripture as having occurred. For example: 1. The book of the Proverbs provides a number of instructions concerning the discipline of children by their parents with the rod (spanking). Yet I am not aware of a single example of such a practice actually being recorded in Scripture. 2. In James 5:14 one who is sick among the believers of the church are instructed to "call for the elders of the church," that those elders might "pray over him, anointing him with oil in the name of the Lord." Yet I am not aware of a single example of such a practice actually being recorded in Scripture. No, there is not "a made up teaching" if the teaching is actually accurate to the text and context. Even so, I presented my questions concerning Romans 10:13-14, as follows: 1. Does Romans 10:13 grammatically present the calling upon the name of the Lord as something that precedes the being saved? 2. Does Romans 10:13 grammatically present the calling upon the name of the Lord as a requirement for the being saved? 3. Does Romans 10:14 grammatically present the believing as something that precedes the calling upon the name of the Lord? 4. Does Romans 10:14 grammatically present the hearing as something that precedes the believing on the Lord? 5. Does Romans 10:14 grammatically present the preacher's preaching as something that precedes the hearing about the Lord? Did you mean the removal of the comma after the whosoever phrase, such as also in John 3:15, John 3:16, John 4:14, John 12:46, and Acts 10:43 (just to list a few)? I get your point Bro. Scott. But is there somewhere where someone is led to the Lord in a prayer for Jesus to save them? No. Surely after all the generations of church people leading the lost to Jesus by having them call upon his name to save them there should be verses upon which to base that system upon. And if Romans 10:13 is it, I don't think it is true. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Pastor Scott Markle Posted April 12, 2016 Members Share Posted April 12, 2016 (edited) 13 hours ago, Genevanpreacher said: I get your point Bro. Scott. But is there somewhere where someone is led to the Lord in a prayer for Jesus to save them? No. Surely after all the generations of church people leading the lost to Jesus by having them call upon his name to save them there should be verses upon which to base that system upon. And if Romans 10:13 is it, I don't think it is true. Brother Pittman, 1. Our responsibility as believers is to go into the world and to preach and teach the gospel unto lost sinners, as per Matthew 28:19-20 & Mark 16:15. If Romans 10:13 is a part of that Biblical gospel, then we are responsible to preach and teach the truth of that verse unto the lost (just as any other truth of the gospel). 2. I am not exactly certain of the meaning in your question -- "But is there somewhere where someone is led to the Lord in a prayer for Jesus to save them?" (1) Do you mean -- Is there a Biblical example of someone who is instructed to pray unto the Lord to save them? (2) Or, do you mean -- is there a Biblical example of someone who is instructed to repeat after another in praying a prayer unto the Lord to save them? Edited April 12, 2016 by Pastor Scott Markle grammar & layout Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Ronda Posted April 12, 2016 Members Share Posted April 12, 2016 I don't know if this would be considered throwing this off topic or not, but a thought occurred to me when reading all of the responses here. I've listened to countless sermons over my lifetime, and back when I could attend (physically, in person) I was always a little miffed when a "guest pastor" or "special speaker" would neglect to give an altar call at the end of the service. I was always even more upset when the "new" pastor took over at the local church and also neglected to give an altar call most of the time. I am wondering if this upsets anyone else? I am not a proponent of "easy-believe-ism" nor of a "1-2-3-repeat after me" type of message of salvation. I do think that if an altar call is given there should be elders (and in the best case scenario a woman speaking to a woman or a man speaking to a man) to help lead these people to Christ should one feel compelled to come forth for an altar call for salvation. I think those in the position of helping them should be able to show them (people coming forth) Bible verses pertaining to salvation, and that they should be able to explain very well that it's not a "magical" "say this" and "get saved" thing, but is instead a heart AND head belief that Jesus died (willingly) on the cross for ANYONE who will accept His payment for our sin, that He was resurrected thereby defeating death and the grave, so that we too will be resurrected. And also to make certain to bring forth verses showing how there are NO WORKS which "help" us in our salvation in any way, but that Christ did ALL the work and was the only acceptable perfect sacrifice God accepted for the remission of sins, and that Jesus' righteousness is imputed upon us when we accept/believe upon Him for salvation. This will likely take longer than 2 minutes to discuss unless the person has been going to church or has read the Bible enough to understand these basic things (and in the first church I went to, the elders/and women would take these people who came forth during an altar call to the open side room where they could discuss with a bit more privacy such an important decision). The reason I bring this up is (again) because of the lack of altar calls I've seen (in the past) as well as some of the ones I did see later on which were so short in length that it left me wondering if the person really DID accept and believe upon Jesus for salvation. I don't think it's rocket science, I do think it's uncomplicated enough a child can understand at a certain point, and it does require calling upon Jesus for salvation along with believing He can and does save. So again... I am not into "easy believe-ism", but I would like to know if an altar call SHOULD be given often (if not every time)? And does it bother anyone else when it is neglected? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Genevanpreacher Posted April 13, 2016 Author Members Share Posted April 13, 2016 23 hours ago, Pastor Scott Markle said: Brother Pittman, 1. Our responsibility as believers is to go into the world and to preach and teach the gospel unto lost sinners, as per Matthew 28:19-20 & Mark 16:15. If Romans 10:13 is a part of that Biblical gospel, then we are responsible to preach and teach the truth of that verse unto the lost (just as any other truth of the gospel). 2. I am not exactly certain of the meaning in your question -- "But is there somewhere where someone is led to the Lord in a prayer for Jesus to save them?" (1) Do you mean -- Is there a Biblical example of someone who is instructed to pray unto the Lord to save them? (2) Or, do you mean -- is there a Biblical example of someone who is instructed to repeat after another in praying a prayer unto the Lord to save them? Number (1) Bro. Scott. Number (2) is not even worthy of asking. Thanks. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Genevanpreacher Posted April 13, 2016 Author Members Share Posted April 13, 2016 On 4/11/2016 at 3:42 PM, Pastor Scott Markle said: Brother Pittman, Really??? Is that a foundational point of logic that you hold for all doctrinal promise and precept in God's Word? You do realize that I can provide a number of such promises and precepts from God's Word wherein no specific example is recorded in Scripture as having occurred. I am sorry Bro. Scott, but I thought it was understood we were talking about salvation. Not just about any teaching. Yes I am sure there are plenty of teachings without examples, but we are talking about eternity, not earthy things. Thanks. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Pastor Scott Markle Posted April 13, 2016 Members Share Posted April 13, 2016 (edited) 1 hour ago, Genevanpreacher said: I am sorry Bro. Scott, but I thought it was understood we were talking about salvation. Not just about any teaching. Yes I am sure there are plenty of teachings without examples, but we are talking about eternity, not earthy things. Thanks. Brother Pittman, I do apologize, for I did not understand that you were narrowing this only to the doctrine of salvation. However, I must say that I still would not agree with your foundational premise that an example MUST be recorded in Scripture in order to accept as true a Biblical precept, principle, or promise even in relation to the doctrine of salvation. Rather, I would contend that if God's Word provides a precept, principle, or promise in relation to the doctrine of salvation, that precept, principle, or promise is true simply because God's Word delivered it. 1 hour ago, Genevanpreacher said: Number (1) Bro. Scott. Number (2) is not even worthy of asking. Thanks. Indeed, I would be compelled to agree that there is no possible example in Scripture for the case of my question #2. On the other hand, concerning the case of my question #1, I must ask another question before I can deliver an answer -- Do you believe that Simon the sorcerer was genuinely saved in Acts 8:13, or do you believe that he was a "false believer" in Acts 8:13? (Note: I myself believe that Simon the sorcerer was a genuine believer who was genuinely saved in Acts 8:13; however, I am aware that many do not agree with me on this. Even so, your answer to the above question will have a bearing upon my ability to provide an example in Scripture for the case of my question #1.) Edited April 13, 2016 by Pastor Scott Markle grammar Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Genevanpreacher Posted April 13, 2016 Author Members Share Posted April 13, 2016 19 hours ago, Pastor Scott Markle said: Brother Pittman, On the other hand, concerning the case of my question #1, I must ask another question before I can deliver an answer -- Do you believe that Simon the sorcerer was genuinely saved in Acts 8:13, or do you believe that he was a "false believer" in Acts 8:13? (Note: I myself believe that Simon the sorcerer was a genuine believer who was genuinely saved in Acts 8:13; however, I am aware that many do not agree with me on this. Even so, your answer to the above question will have a bearing upon my ability to provide an example in Scripture for the case of my question #1.) I have no reason to think he wasn't, contrary to popular belief. Pastor Scott Markle 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members No Nicolaitans Posted April 14, 2016 Members Share Posted April 14, 2016 22 hours ago, Pastor Scott Markle said: I myself believe that Simon the sorcerer was a genuine believer who was genuinely saved in Acts 8:13 2 hours ago, Genevanpreacher said: I have no reason to think he wasn't, contrary to popular belief. Well then...that makes three! Genevanpreacher and Pastor Scott Markle 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Pastor Scott Markle Posted April 14, 2016 Members Share Posted April 14, 2016 14 minutes ago, No Nicolaitans said: Well then...that makes three! So then, is that "three is the charm;" or is that "three strikes, and we are out"? No Nicolaitans and Genevanpreacher 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Pastor Scott Markle Posted April 14, 2016 Members Share Posted April 14, 2016 (edited) 3 hours ago, Genevanpreacher said: I have no reason to think he wasn't, contrary to popular belief. Well then, for both you and I the case of Peter's instruction to Simon the sorcerer in Acts 8:22 would NOT be a valid case to fulfill your request for an example of one who was instructed to pray unto God for salvation. Even so, I cannot at this time think of any other Scriptural example to fulfill your request. However, my point would have been (for the sake of the argument, if you held to the position that Simon the sorcerer was a false believer in Acts 8:13) the case of Acts 8:22. Indeed, for those who do hold to the position that Simon the sorcerer was simply a false believer in Acts 8:13, they could point to Acts 8:22 as an example to fulfill the request. While that example would NOT actually satisfy you, because you believe that Simon the sorcerer was a genuine believer in Acts 8:13, it could satisfy them that they had provided an example. Edited April 14, 2016 by Pastor Scott Markle added "even so" sentence for 1st paragraph & grammar Genevanpreacher 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Genevanpreacher Posted April 14, 2016 Author Members Share Posted April 14, 2016 This might be a good subject to start a thread on also. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Genevanpreacher Posted April 24, 2016 Author Members Share Posted April 24, 2016 (edited) On 4/13/2016 at 10:07 PM, Pastor Scott Markle said: However, I must say that I still would not agree with your foundational premise that an example MUST be recorded in Scripture in order to accept as true a Biblical precept, principle, or promise even in relation to the doctrine of salvation. Rather, I would contend that if God's Word provides a precept, principle, or promise in relation to the doctrine of salvation, that precept, principle, or promise is true simply because God's Word delivered it. But wouldn't you think there would be ONE experience in the scriptures showing someone praying to Jesus to get saved? (after Jesus' ascension, of course.) I mean, come on, Churches all over America experience 'salvations' from people 'calling upon the name of the Lord' every Sunday! If that's the 'way of salvation' - show proof from the experiences of the early NT Church disciples! Edited April 24, 2016 by Genevanpreacher Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Pastor Scott Markle Posted April 24, 2016 Members Share Posted April 24, 2016 22 minutes ago, Genevanpreacher said: But wouldn't you think there would be ONE experience in the scriptures showing someone praying to Jesus to get saved? (after Jesus' ascension, of course.) I mean, come on, Churches all over America experience 'salvations' from people 'calling upon the name of the Lord' every Sunday! If that's the 'way of salvation' - show proof from the experiences of the early NT Church disciples! Brother Pittman, In a previous posting, I presented the following TWO examples: On 4/11/2016 at 3:42 PM, Pastor Scott Markle said: Brother Pittman, Do you accept the example of the publican in Luke 18:13-14 who called upon the Lord God to be merciful unto him a sinner, and who was justified before the Lord God thereby? Do you accept the example of the malefactor in Luke 23:42-43 who called upon the Lord Jesus Christ to remember him (with mercy), and who was "saved" thereby? So then, what say you? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members John81 Posted April 25, 2016 Members Share Posted April 25, 2016 5 hours ago, Pastor Scott Markle said: Brother Pittman, In a previous posting, I presented the following TWO examples: So then, what say you? In both those examples there was much more going on than just a calling out to the Lord. Unfortunately I know many people who believe they are going to heaven some day because they simply called out to the Lord. Often in a watered down prayer where they called out to Jesus to come into their heart. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members heartstrings Posted April 25, 2016 Members Share Posted April 25, 2016 13 minutes ago, John81 said: In both those examples there was much more going on than just a calling out to the Lord. Unfortunately I know many people who believe they are going to heaven some day because they simply called out to the Lord. Often in a watered down prayer where they called out to Jesus to come into their heart. I called out one word; "JESUS!!" , but I guarantee it was childlike faith, straight from my heart, Jesus was there, God heard it, and the Holy Ghost witnessed. What constitutes a "watered down prayer"/ HappyChristian and 2Tim215 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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