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Genevanpreacher

Is 'Calling Upon The Name of the Lord' salvation?

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OK folks, I was able to move all the posts regarding "asking Jesus to save you", into this new thread that GP started. This means that they are no longer in the other thread that was about repentance. 

The only problem with doing it this way is that Bro. Genevanpreacher's first post in his new thread shows up last in the list.

Hopefully this will not be too confusing. At the very least it will keep all the posts on this subject that have already been posted all in one place.

One good thing about this is that folks won't have to post their stuff all over again. This will allow the conversation to progress from the point we left off in the other thread.

I'm still working at finding out how much I can do as a mod. I would like to move GP's first post in this new thread to the top so it doesn't look like you are coming into the thread in the middle of a topic. I'll see if I can do it without messing everything up. I could use some prayer in this respect. The last thing I want to do is possibly make all the posts go away, or mess up the thread and not be able to undo some terrible mistake. :hide:__________________________________
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I like that you had the ability to talk to a Muslim Donald. As to what you said - it was eye opening to him, I am sure. Your statement that he "ask Jesus to save me" is quite concerning though. 

Calling upon the name of the Lord never saved anyone in the NT nor the OT.

It is by believing with all your heart.

If you look carefully at those verses in Romans 10 you will see what I mean. Because if you believe 'calling upon the name of the Lord' is getting saved, you have 2 salvations in the same chapter.

This is where I don't like most so called 'gospel tracts'. They are not gospel. They are 'say this magical prayer- and POOF you're saved' tracts.

Calling upon the name of the Lord is an 'after salvation' type of characteristic. Not a 'non-believer getting saved' type of characteristic.

Calling upon the name of the Lord is simply praying to the Lord you believe in with all your heart.

Any example from the scriptures of someone getting saved by doing this will of course nullify my statements here.

But there are zero examples.

Let us focus on who Jesus IS - THAT is the Gospel that we believe in.

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Hello Genevanpreacher
I am glad to respond to your concern about my transmission of the Gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ: This is such an important issue, and I always want to be 1000% in line with God’s Word in this area.

You are right, that my Gospel presentation is laced with this phraseology; And this is based upon the rock that I find in Romans 10:13, that I have placed my eternity on.

As you do, I also frown upon that “magical prayer” idea; But as you can see I make it clear that "believing" is what Salvation is all about.

Here is a part of my posted conversation, that explains what I am talking about; Talking to this guy, in the 3rd person, I said.....
“And if Ahmed will believe that Jesus died to pay for his sin and to give him a victory over his sin, than Ahmed can be saved today, by asking Jesus to save him.  This is how Don got saved.”

You notice, how believing comes before calling.
------------------------
Also, your statement that the instruction in Verse 13, is a “post-salvation” instruction, reminds me of the old argument about what happens first at the moment of salvation; Our justification, or the indwelling of the Holy Spirit, or our reconciliation, or our inheritance in Christ, etc.

In reality, all of what we get at salvation, is simultaneous.


Sorry for such a brief response, but it’s after midnight right now and I have other things to do.
Please, lets discuss this further.

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7 hours ago, Donald said:

Hello Genevanpreacher
I am glad to respond to your concern about my transmission of the Gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ: This is such an important issue, and I always want to be 1000% in line with God’s Word in this area.

You are right, that my Gospel presentation is laced with this phraseology; And this is based upon the rock that I find in Romans 10:13, that I have placed my eternity on.

As you do, I also frown upon that “magical prayer” idea; But as you can see I make it clear that "believing" is what Salvation is all about.

Here is a part of my posted conversation, that explains what I am talking about; Talking to this guy, in the 3rd person, I said.....
“And if Ahmed will believe that Jesus died to pay for his sin and to give him a victory over his sin, than Ahmed can be saved today, by asking Jesus to save him.  This is how Don got saved.”

You notice, how believing comes before calling.
------------------------
Also, your statement that the instruction in Verse 13, is a “post-salvation” instruction, reminds me of the old argument about what happens first at the moment of salvation; Our justification, or the indwelling of the Holy Spirit, or our reconciliation, or our inheritance in Christ, etc.

In reality, all of what we get at salvation, is simultaneous.


Sorry for such a brief response, but it’s after midnight right now and I have other things to do.
Please, lets discuss this further.

Indeed the presentation, including the ordering of key points, is very important. When done in person we can have the added benefit of being able to see facial and body expressions and reactions which can help us know their understanding or lack thereof. More importantly, if we are prayed up for witnessing, we have the benefit of the guidance of the Holy Ghost as we present the Gospel.

The more difficult point is in trying to create or find tracts which are able to express the means of true biblical salvation rather than presenting a "magical" prayer or giving the impression repeating a "sinners prayer" is all that's necessary.

When we are saved, that which comes with salvation is immediately ours. What comes after salvation, hopefully, is growth in Christ.

I applaud your efforts to take great care in this area.

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Hello Genevanpreacher
I am glad to respond to your concern about my transmission of the Gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ: This is such an important issue, and I always want to be 1000% in line with God’s Word in this area.

You are right, that my Gospel presentation is laced with this phraseology; And this is based upon the rock that I find in Romans 10:13, that I have placed my eternity on.

As you do, I also frown upon that “magical prayer” idea; But as you can see I make it clear that "believing" is what Salvation is all about.

Here is a part of my posted conversation, that explains what I am talking about; Talking to this guy, in the 3rd person, I said.....
“And if Ahmed will believe that Jesus died to pay for his sin and to give him a victory over his sin, than Ahmed can be saved today, by asking Jesus to save him.  This is how Don got saved.”

You notice, how believing comes before calling.
------------------------
Also, your statement that the instruction in Verse 13, is a “post-salvation” instruction, reminds me of the old argument about what happens first at the moment of salvation; Our justification, or the indwelling of the Holy Spirit, or our reconciliation, or our inheritance in Christ, etc.

In reality, all of what we get at salvation, is simultaneous.


Sorry for such a brief response, but it’s after midnight right now and I have other things to do.
Please, lets discuss this further.

Yet there it is, brother.

You emphasized that the 'asking Jesus to save him' was the point of salvation. One example of this occuring in the NT?

It does not exist.

So maybe you need to rethink what Romans is saying in the 'calling upon the name of the Lord" section, huh?

Maybe?

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The thief on the cross asked. The woman at the well asked for living water. Blind Bartimaeus asked, Nicodemus asked, The Wild man of Gadarra asked, People met Christ in different ways; what's wrong with asking, bro?

 

Edited by heartstrings

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14 hours ago, heartstrings said:

The thief on the cross asked. The woman at the well asked for living water. Blind Bartimaeus asked, Nicodemus asked, The Wild man of Gadarra asked, People met Christ in different ways; what's wrong with asking, bro?

 

Good points and a caveat to this IMO is that all of your examples above initiated their salvation. Noone goaded, bribed or tricked them into saying a canned little speech (prayer) into the wind. They were in the presence of the Living Word of God and saving faith only comes by the Word of God (either Living or Written).

Repentance is not rocket surgery, it is born of the Spirit via the Word and is supernatural. Give them the Word and pray for them, God will give the increase (not us) 

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16 minutes ago, Ukulelemike said:

When one 'calls upon the name of the Lord Jesus Christ", is this not to ask to be forgiven and saved? To confess the Lord Jesus Christ, is this not, in essence, repentance of heart, in accepting Jesus to be Lord? I think we're way-over-thinking it. It isn't rocket surgery. Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ and confess with you mouth that God hath raised Him from the dead, thou shalt be saved. How can you call upon someone you don't believe in?

Amen and Amen

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7 hours ago, Ukulelemike said:

When one 'calls upon the name of the Lord Jesus Christ", is this not to ask to be forgiven and saved? To confess the Lord Jesus Christ, is this not, in essence, repentance of heart, in accepting Jesus to be Lord? I think we're way-over-thinking it. It isn't rocket surgery. Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ and confess with you mouth that God hath raised Him from the dead, thou shalt be saved. How can you call upon someone you don't believe in?

Your first part sounds 'good', but there is no proof of anyone asking Jesus to save them in the NT anywhere. One verse will prove me wrong. One verse that tells or shows someone praying to Jesus or speaking to Jesus and asking him to save them and him giving them salvation.

I think this a good thought.

Help those reading this to see your references.

None of the references from Heartstrings apply to this question.

Paul and Peter and none of the disciples taught this 'pray and ask Jesus to save you' type of doctrine.

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1 hour ago, Genevanpreacher said:

Your first part sounds 'good', but there is no proof of anyone asking Jesus to save them in the NT anywhere. One verse will prove me wrong. One verse that tells or shows someone praying to Jesus or speaking to Jesus and asking him to save them and him giving them salvation.

I think this a good thought.

Help those reading this to see your references.

None of the references from Heartstrings apply to this question.

Paul and Peter and none of the disciples taught this 'pray and ask Jesus to save you' type of doctrine.

Time seems to be tough lately but can you elaborate on what you mean? I think I know but that ain't good enough for me.

If you don't mind

Edited by wretched

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4 hours ago, Genevanpreacher said:

Your first part sounds 'good', but there is no proof of anyone asking Jesus to save them in the NT anywhere. One verse will prove me wrong. One verse that tells or shows someone praying to Jesus or speaking to Jesus and asking him to save them and him giving them salvation.

I think this a good thought.

Help those reading this to see your references.

None of the references from Heartstrings apply to this question.

Paul and Peter and none of the disciples taught this 'pray and ask Jesus to save you' type of doctrine.

Obviously it is true that the exact phrase "ask Jesus to save you" is not in the Bible. But there are many exact phrases that we use that are not in the Bible in their exact wording, yet they are taught in "other words".

Consider the thief on the cross:  Lu 23:42 And he said unto Jesus, Lord, remember me when thou comest into thy kingdom. 

And lastly consider the answer of Jesus to this man:  Lu 23:43 And Jesus said unto him, Verily I say unto thee, To day shalt thou be with me in paradise.

If this is not teaching that he asked Jesus to save him and Jesus did exactly that, then I don't know what is.

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Believing is the point of salvation and that saving faith is always coupled with a call upon the Lord for salvation. Just as a man cannot "say a prayer" to be saved he cannot "believe" and keep silent. Either by calling on the Lord for it, asking for it, acknowledging it, being led in it, or etc. It makes little difference exactly how it is said but that one does call.  

Romans 10:6 But the righteousness which is of faith speaketh on this wise, Say not in thine heart, Who shall ascend into heaven? (that is, to bring Christ down from above:) 7 or, Who shall descend into the deep? (that is, to bring up Christ again from the dead.) 8 But what saith it? The word is nigh thee, even in thy mouth, and in thy heart: that is, the word of faith, which we preach; 9 that if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved. 10 For with the heart man believeth unto righteousness; and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation. 11 For the scripture saith, Whosoever believeth on him shall not be ashamed.12 For there is no difference between the Jew and the Greek: for the same Lord over all is rich unto all that call upon him. 13 For whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved.

Matthew 7:7-9 Ask, and it shall be given you; seek, and ye shall find; knock, and it shall be opened unto you: 8 for every one that asketh receiveth; and he that seeketh findeth; and to him that knocketh it shall be opened. 9 Or what man is there of you, whom if his son ask bread, will he give him a stone?

Romans 8:26 Likewise the Spirit also helpeth our infirmities: for we know not what we should pray for as we ought: but the Spirit itself maketh intercession for us with groaning swhich cannot be uttered.

Edited by John Young

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17 hours ago, wretched said:

Time seems to be tough lately but can you elaborate on what you mean? I think I know but that ain't good enough for me.

If you don't mind

I shall try brother.

In our modern churches, there is this teaching that the Lord requires a person to ask him to save them.

I don't see it in scripture.

All through the Gospels before the cross, no one was required to pray, nor talk to Jesus, and ask him to save them.

All through the books following the Gospels, no one ever prayed to the Lord save them. No where. Yes, the jailor in Acts did ask what he must do to get saved. It wasn't to pray. The eunuch asked why he couldn't be baptized. And others throughout the scriptures were told how to be saved. But never were the lost told to ask or pray for Jesus to save them.

Salvation is by hearing and believing the word of God about Jesus Christ and his sacrifice for the redemption of those who cannot save themselves - which includes his resurrection of course, for only God can come back alive after death. That is what produces a born again child of God. The after effect is a relationship with God by calling upon his name and conversing with God himself. Not calling upon the Lord to save you.

Look up the verses in the OT about calling upon God and you will see that it is a relationship of conversing with God, whom they already believed in. 

It is called prayer.

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In my case the "after effect" happened in about a second or less because I was yelling the name of Jesus before I could get out of the pew, but yes, I'm going to have to say I agree with you. Absolutely. Besides, a mute person would be in trouble if he had to "call" audibly. But that's not the case. Faith and repentance take place in the heart and, also because of this, it is not of "works". But if Jesus comes into a man's heart, I fully believe there will be some kind of outward "after effect".. Happened to me.

...and there will be a change; a new creature, old things passed away, all things become new.

 

 

Edited by heartstrings

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3 hours ago, Genevanpreacher said:

I shall try brother.

In our modern churches, there is this teaching that the Lord requires a person to ask him to save them.

I don't see it in scripture.

All through the Gospels before the cross, no one was required to pray, nor talk to Jesus, and ask him to save them.

All through the books following the Gospels, no one ever prayed to the Lord save them. No where. Yes, the jailor in Acts did ask what he must do to get saved. It wasn't to pray. The eunuch asked why he couldn't be baptized. And others throughout the scriptures were told how to be saved. But never were the lost told to ask or pray for Jesus to save them.

Salvation is by hearing and believing the word of God about Jesus Christ and his sacrifice for the redemption of those who cannot save themselves - which includes his resurrection of course, for only God can come back alive after death. That is what produces a born again child of God. The after effect is a relationship with God by calling upon his name and conversing with God himself. Not calling upon the Lord to save you.

Look up the verses in the OT about calling upon God and you will see that it is a relationship of conversing with God, whom they already believed in. 

It is called prayer.

Ok, I got it GP. That is what I thought you meant and I cannot see it either..

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Just some questions about Romans 10:13 itself:

Romans 10:13 -- "For whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved."

1.  Does Romans 10:13 grammatically present the calling upon the name of the Lord as something that precedes the being saved?

2.  Does Romans 10:13 grammatically present the calling upon the name of the Lord as a requirement for the being saved?

Edited by Pastor Scott Markle

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5 minutes ago, Pastor Scott Markle said:

Just some questions about Romans 10:13 itself:

Romans 10:13 -- "For whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved."

1.  Does Romans 10:13 grammatically present the calling upon the name of the Lord as something that precedes the being saved?

2.  Does Romans 10:13 grammatically present the calling upon the name of the Lord as a requirement for the being saved?

I am not a grammarian by any means Bro. Scott. But in my unlearned opinion Romans 10:13 Means exactly what it says in plain English and nothing more or less.

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19 hours ago, Genevanpreacher said:

I shall try brother.

In our modern churches, there is this teaching that the Lord requires a person to ask him to save them.

I don't see it in scripture.

All through the Gospels before the cross, no one was required to pray, nor talk to Jesus, and ask him to save them.

All through the books following the Gospels, no one ever prayed to the Lord save them. No where. Yes, the jailor in Acts did ask what he must do to get saved. It wasn't to pray. The eunuch asked why he couldn't be baptized. And others throughout the scriptures were told how to be saved. But never were the lost told to ask or pray for Jesus to save them.

Salvation is by hearing and believing the word of God about Jesus Christ and his sacrifice for the redemption of those who cannot save themselves - which includes his resurrection of course, for only God can come back alive after death. That is what produces a born again child of God. The after effect is a relationship with God by calling upon his name and conversing with God himself. Not calling upon the Lord to save you.

Look up the verses in the OT about calling upon God and you will see that it is a relationship of conversing with God, whom they already believed in. 

It is called prayer.

Romans 10:13 ?
For whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord pray shall be saved. (?)

Doesn't your definition negate what you were trying to say?

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1 hour ago, Jim_Alaska said:

I am not a grammarian by any means Bro. Scott. But in my unlearned opinion Romans 10:13 Means exactly what it says in plain English and nothing more or less.

I may be wrong but what I think GP is saying is opposing a verbal head acknowledgement and "sinners" prayer and standing for a true "calling" upon God in the heart that does not have to be verbal per se but it has to be born of the Spirit and from the heart only. There are no examples anywhere of a "sinners" prayer as commonly taught in the IFB sales classes. Certainly the verses you quote are a calling upon God, anyone can see that, but the gist is that it must be a heart calling from inside, whether an outward verbalization occurs or not.

Once the heart calling occurs, then the verbal profession (to others) will come or it was not real.

Have you ever met someone who remembers saying a "sinners" prayer at some point in their life but who never thought to warn their own loved ones of hell?

Have you ever met someone who remembers saying a "sinners" prayer or who has "begun their relationship with Jesus" but when you show them from the Word something about sin like fornication or homo behavior they don't agree with it? Or that women cannot pastor, they don't agree with it?

I have met these types above 1000s of times to one who profess but never changed. They got some religion but never changed. This type of "calling" is what is in opposition here IMO.

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2 hours ago, Pastor Scott Markle said:

Just some questions about Romans 10:13 itself:

Romans 10:13 -- "For whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved."

1.  Does Romans 10:13 grammatically present the calling upon the name of the Lord as something that precedes the being saved?

2.  Does Romans 10:13 grammatically present the calling upon the name of the Lord as a requirement for the being saved?

The very next verse gives your answer. I'm not too good at grammar, but I can compare scripture with scripture. The scriptures say that when one "believes", they "hath" everlasting life and they say that one cannot "call" until they've heard and believed.

John 5:24 Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that heareth my word, and believeth on him that sent me, hath everlasting life, and shall not come into condemnation; but is passed from death unto life.

 

Romans 10:14 How then shall they call on him in whom they have not believed? and how shall they believe in him of whom they have not heard? and how shall they hear without a preacher?

 

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39 minutes ago, heartstrings said:

The very next verse gives your answer. I'm not too good at grammar, but I can compare scripture with scripture. The scriptures say that when one "believes", they "hath" everlasting life and they say that one cannot "call" until they've heard and believed.

John 5:24 Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that heareth my word, and believeth on him that sent me, hath everlasting life, and shall not come into condemnation; but is passed from death unto life.

 

Romans 10:14 How then shall they call on him in whom they have not believed? and how shall they believe in him of whom they have not heard? and how shall they hear without a preacher?

 

So then, let me ask some questions about Romans 10:13 & 14:

1.  Does Romans 10:13 grammatically present the calling upon the name of the Lord as something that precedes the being saved?

2.  Does Romans 10:13 grammatically present the calling upon the name of the Lord as a requirement for the being saved?

3.  Does Romans 10:14 grammatically present the believing as something that precedes the calling upon the name of the Lord?

4.  Does Romans 10:14 grammatically present the hearing as something that precedes the believing on the Lord?

5.  Does Romans 10:14 grammatically present the preacher's preaching as something that precedes the hearing about the Lord?

Or, were you seeking to communicate that the statements and teaching of John 5:24 & Romans 10:14 cancel out the statement and teaching of Romans 10:13?

Edited by Pastor Scott Markle

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7 minutes ago, Pastor Scott Markle said:

So then, let me ask some questions about Romans 10:13 & 14:

1.  Does Romans 10:13 grammatically present the calling upon the name of the Lord as something that precedes the being saved?

2.  Does Romans 10:13 grammatically present the calling upon the name of the Lord as a requirement for the being saved?

3.  Does Romans 10:14 grammatically present the believing as something that precedes the calling upon the name of the Lord?

4.  Does Romans 10:14 grammatically present the hearing as something that precedes the believing on the Lord?

5.  Does Romans 10:14 grammatically present the preacher's preaching as something that precedes the hearing about the Lord?

Or, were you seeking to communicate that the statements and teaching of John 5:24 & Romans 10:14 cancel out the statement and teaching of Romans 10:13?

absolutely not.

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On 4/8/2016 at 5:51 PM, Genevanpreacher said:
9 hours ago, wretched said:

I may be wrong but what I think GP is saying is opposing a verbal head acknowledgement and "sinners" prayer and standing for a true "calling" upon God in the heart that does not have to be verbal per se but it has to be born of the Spirit and from the heart only. There are no examples anywhere of a "sinners" prayer as commonly taught in the IFB sales classes. Certainly the verses you quote are a calling upon God, anyone can see that, but the gist is that it must be a heart calling from inside, whether an outward verbalization occurs or not.

Once the heart calling occurs, then the verbal profession (to others) will come or it was not real.

Have you ever met someone who remembers saying a "sinners" prayer at some point in their life but who never thought to warn their own loved ones of hell?

Have you ever met someone who remembers saying a "sinners" prayer or who has "begun their relationship with Jesus" but when you show them from the Word something about sin like fornication or homo behavior they don't agree with it? Or that women cannot pastor, they don't agree with it?

I have met these types above 1000s of times to one who profess but never changed. They got some religion but never changed. This type of "calling" is what is in opposition here IMO.

Bro. Wretched,

I did understand Bro. Genevanpreacher's position in this matter. I also do not hold with any type of "easy believe" nonsense or silly sinners prayer type of witnessing. I have never been to any IFB sales classes and indeed have never even heard of such a thing. I was saved, taught and called to preach in an Independent Baptist Church.

What I was specifically referencing in my reply was this that Genevanpreacher presented as a challenge:

"One verse will prove me wrong. One verse that tells or shows someone praying to Jesus or speaking to Jesus and asking him to save them and him giving them salvation."

I was in no way advocating the type of so called "soul winning" that I see so prevalent today. I am fully convinced that God, through His Holy Spirit is fully able to convict men of sin and their need for a Savior. God does not need any kind of salesmanship on the part of me or any so called "soul winner".

I do hope that this clarifies my position as well as the real reason for the response I made to Bro. Genevanpreacher.

 

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If we are to call upon Jesus to be saved, what is the call then, but a call to be saved? It doesn't seem that hard. If the end result is being saved, should not the call be to that end? Otherwise what ARE we calling for? A ham on rye, hold the mayo?

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A simple answer Bro. Scott.

You get that simple answer, grammatically or not, by quoting one verse as a true example of someone in the NT doing that very thing.

If there is no verse, there is no 'calling upon the name of the Lord' to get saved.

Men have made up SO many false doctrines, not really doctrines at all, but just like in Galatians 1, they have preached another Gospel, not a real Gospel, but they have perverted the Gospel of Christ.

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