Rapture and Pregnancy Questions

[Christ Follower]

19 hours ago, wretched said:

Not from the aspect of generality.

Romans 9 demonstrates specific instances where God moved, raised up or put down a person or specific group of people.

It does not convince me one bit that this applies to the average joe.

He is using Jacob and Esau as examples of individuals.

 

John 6:

 

44 No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him: and I will raise him up at the last day.

19 hours ago, wretched said:

 

Most importantly however is the context, if you keep reading the chapter at the end God reveals that all were still given the opportunity of choice. 

No, the context of the chapter is God is sovereign over all things. There is no choice

20 hours ago, wretched said:

He of course knew what they would choose and then hardened them even more to prove His points.

That's not what the texts says 

Romans 9:17For the scripture saith unto Pharaoh, Even for this same purpose have I raised thee up, that I might shew my power in thee, and that my name might be declared throughout all the earth. 18Therefore hath he mercy on whom he will have mercy, and whom he will he hardeneth.

how do you get what you said from this?

 

[John81]

5 hours ago, Invicta said:

 Genesis 18:25 Shall not the Judge of all the earth do right?

Exactly! We have no need to wonder or be concerned over matters the Lord hasn't specifically addressed. God will do right regardless of any of our opinions as to what may or may not be right in a given matter.

[wretched]

4 hours ago, Christ Follower said:

He is using Jacob and Esau as examples of individuals.

 

John 6:

 

44 No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him: and I will raise him up at the last day.

No, the context of the chapter is God is sovereign over all things. There is no choice

That's not what the texts says 

Romans 9:17For the scripture saith unto Pharaoh, Even for this same purpose have I raised thee up, that I might shew my power in thee, and that my name might be declared throughout all the earth. 18Therefore hath he mercy on whom he will have mercy, and whom he will he hardeneth.

how do you get what you said from this?

 

Sorry friend, this is all wrong and is sadly how you have been mislead into interpretation by useless men.

I certainly believe that there is something to predestination but nothing like satan's Calvinism created to turn would be servants of God into good for nothing empty vessels.

Pharaoh is another excellent example disproving this false stand. Pharaoh hardened his own heart long before God showed His Power through him. Pharaoh made the choice after repeated opportunities to believe. God knew it from the foundation of the world and used it in accordance with His Will.

You have been duped my friend so I ask you to abandon this evil false teaching and get on the winning team.

[Christ Follower]

No Wretched, it's you who has been deceived, Scofield has lied to you all,

you see in Exodus 4:21, before Moses actually spoke to Pharoah, God told Moses what he would do...

"And the LORD said unto Moses, When thou goest to return into Egypt, see that thou do all those wonders before Pharaoh, which I have put in thine hand: but I will harden his heart, that he shall not let the people go.

Who hardened Pharaoh's heart? You see how this ties in to Romans 9?

Repent!! And give our Glorious God his due reverence!!!

I didn't quote Calvin, I quoted Scripture. You cling to Scofield with dear life, find me any pre-trib rapture teaching before 1830, you'll be looking a long time my friend

Edited April 9, 2016 by Christ Follower

[No Nicolaitans]

18 minutes ago, Christ Follower said:

find me any pre-trib rapture teaching before 1830, you'll be looking a long time my friend

Oh dear...here we go AGAIN...

22 minutes ago, Christ Follower said:

You cling to Scofield with dear life

You don't know Wretched very well, do you? 

[OLD fashioned preacher]

On 4/5/2016 at 4:39 PM, Ronda said:

Could I please receive responses from those who:
1. Believe in a pre-trib rapture
 

 

50 minutes ago, Christ Follower said:

find me any pre-trib rapture teaching before 1830, you'll be looking a long time my friend

Did you not see the the requested parameters for response for this thread?

OR did you just choose to ignore them?

I'll be awaiting your response to my question.

[Christ Follower]

39 minutes ago, OLD fashioned preacher said:

 

Did you not see the the requested parameters for response for this thread?

OR did you just choose to ignore them?

I'll be awaiting your response to my question.

I'm sorry, I thought this was a Biblical forum?

Without researching, Old Fashioned Preacher, you're probably pastor a church, with no elders, am I correct? You are not use to answering or being accountable to anybody, am I correct?

Edited April 9, 2016 by Christ Follower

[OLD fashioned preacher]

Rhonda started the thread, Rhonda set the requested parameters, I questioned certain restrictions, her restrictions do not violate any OFB rules. Whether I agree or disagree with the parameters is a moot point. I deferred to her request, you WILL do the same or you WILL remove yourself from the thread (or have your posts deleted).

Or to put it another way, anyone coming into this thread is subject to her thread guidelines, how's that for accountability?

[Christ Follower]

I read the guidelines. I was bringing another perspective, which I stated. There are more Biblical perspectives to what she was asking. God's Word is deeper than just a surface level dispensationalism. God's Word addresses such a situation, but not under the guidelines she was asking. Hence, that's why I answered the way I did. 

There is no Rapture of the church.

the Tribulation written of in the Gospels, epistles and Revelation happen in the first century.

There is no reason for Rhonda to concern herself in such matters. And God chooses whom He wills to be saved. It's all in Scripture.

Rhonda if you want to know more, shoot me a pm

Edited April 9, 2016 by Christ Follower

[OLD fashioned preacher]

1 minute ago, Christ Follower said:

I read the guidelines. I was bringing another perspective, which I stated. There are more Biblical perspectives to what she was asking. God's Word is deeper than just a surface level dispensationalism. God's Word addresses such a situation, but not under the guidelines she was asking. Hence, that's why I answered the way I did. 

There is no Rapture of the church.

the Tribulation written of in the Gospels, epistles and Revelation happen in the first century.

There is no reason for Rhonda to concern herself in such matters. And God chooses whom He wills to be saved. It's all in Scripture.

There have been other discussions concerning Calvinism, election, rapture, dispensationalism, etc. She laid out the parameters she desires to keep this discussion within - right, wrong or indifferent. Anything outside of her set parameters if off subject for this thread.

 

Don't bother excusing yourself, find another thread.

[Eric Stahl]

#1 Psalm 139:13-16 Babies are written in God's book before they have arms and legs. We are God's at conception till we are old enough to choose to sin. All God's children will be called up at the rapture.

#2  I believe the unborn children of unsaved mothers still belong to God so will probably be called up too.

Edited April 9, 2016 by Eric Stahl

[Christ Follower]

6 hours ago, Christ Follower said:

I'm sorry, I thought this was a Biblical forum?

Without researching, Old Fashioned Preacher, you're probably pastor a church, with no elders, am I correct? You are not use to answering or being accountable to anybody, am I correct?

I noticed you didn't address this, I'm assuming in correct.

You're use to getting your own way.

[John81]

14 minutes ago, Christ Follower said:

I noticed you didn't address this, I'm assuming in correct.

You're use to getting your own way.

Unless you are looking for a short stay here, antagonizing a Moderator in such a manner is inappropriate,

He made his point clear. The original poster set specific guidelines for those she wanted to hear from on the topic she chose. That's reasonable and we are expected to abide by such. That's just common courtesy and respect.

There are plenty of other threads without restrictions we can post in, or even start our own thread on a particular topic.

Making assumptions and then being pushy about basically nothing can come to no good end and is not Christ honoring.

[Ronda]

Thank you for upholding the parameters OFP. This was exactly why I laid out the parameters and explained as well the reason for those parameters. I had expected someone (or multiple someone's) to come forth with Matthew 24:19  reasoning, and I also stated I hoped it would not turn into "a debate on the age of accountability, nor the timing of the rapture, nor Matthew 24." (as my original post states).  The exact reason I set the parameters so as to have serious biblical discussion on the original questions, and not to be derailed by a self-proclaimed "partial preterist".  So "Christ Follower" I won't be shooting you a pm (as you suggested I do). I also suggest that you abide by the moderators warning, rather than to attempt to instigate problems. I am of the opinion that you COULD be the "partial preterist" who once was booted off of here???   I have no doubts about the truth in scriptural support for the pre-trib rapture, I don't need to hear/read another opinion from a view that doesn't revere God's word enough to take it literally and reverently in regard to the timing of the rapture (if you can't see the differences in the verses pertaining to the 2nd coming in comparison with the verses regarding the rapture and glorious appearing, I can't help you, only the Holy Spirit can help you comprehend the truth in differences).  Much less from an allegorical/spiritualized position where a person can (and will) twist God's word to mean whatever they want to fit a theory. Again, this is why I set parameter #1 for belief in the pre-trib rapture, and I do hope we can get back to the discussion of the original post within the parameters, and again, thank you OFP for upholding my request in parameters so that the discussion can stay focused on the questions.  As for everyone else who abided by the parameters and contributed to this thread and the original topic, thank you for your input  

[Golgotha]

On 4/5/2016 at 6:39 PM, Ronda said:

### QUESTION #1: Please answer (having met the 4 parameters above) if you believe these unborn babies in the womb will be raptured as individuals.

### QUESTION #2: Now my next scenario is even stranger... it would pertain to an unsaved woman who is pregnant at the time of the rapture... do you think her baby be raptured from the womb?

Wouldn't your question also include the babies that are born?  If you have an answer to that question, then how could it not apply to the unborn?

I am puzzled as to how to approach this topic since you & others have lost babies.  I believe only God knows which baby, unborn or born, are in Heaven with Him.  

My pause is this talk about age of accountability;  Psalm 51:5 cites being shapen in iniquity.  Psalm 58:3 testifies of the wicked going astray as soon as they are born.  So by these two verses, I so not see why believers think that there is an age of accountability.  I am sure there are other verses that would suggest it, but those two seemingly denies it.

But... and there is a but...

Matthew 11:25-27 testifies of the Father revealing His Son to even babes;  that would include even in the womb.  However, John 3:18-21 testifies that the Father knows Whom is seeking Him from those that are not, and that the reasons why sinners do not believe is because the Father knows that they prefer their evil deeds rather than comes to Jesus to be reproved of them and that is why the Father does not reveal His son to those sinners.  ( That does not mean that the sinner will never receive Jesus later on in life, but for those that had passed on to death, it is by His words that those non-believers preferred their evil deeds rather than be reproved of them.

To think of a baby as a captive audience;  parents neglect to share the gospel to the babes or even toddlers because they think they will not understand;  but it is not by a persuasion of a man's speech, but the demonstration of the Spirit & of power is why any one believe.  1 Corinthians 2:4  And since Matthew 11:25-27 testifies that the Father reveals His Son to even babes, parents should feel free to share the gospel & sing Christ honoring hymns even as lullabies like Amazing Grace or How Great Thou Art.

As for the babies in the wombs:

Psalm 139:15 My substance was not hid from thee, when I was made in secret, and curiously wrought in the lowest parts of the earth. 16 Thine eyes did see my substance, yet being unperfect; and in thy book all my members were written, which in continuance were fashioned, when as yet there was none of them. 17 How precious also are thy thoughts unto me, O God! how great is the sum of them!

God knew us before we were even conceived !  And so in that truth, coupled with other truths that the Father knows Whom is seeking Him from those that prefer their evil deeds, any unborn baby that He knows prefer Jesus rather than their evil deeds, He would reveal His Son to them so that they can believe and be saved prior to death or the rapture event.  That would include unborn babies of unsaved mothers.  God is a fair judge after all.

The same applies to babes that have been born & even to tots & toddlers of the saved mother & the unsaved mother.

May our joy abound more when we see those taken too early in life in Heaven to give Jesus Christ all the more praise & thanksgiving, but as it is, we can only hope in Him that we may see our little ones again, and because of Him, our family has gotten bigger.  There will be other little ones awaiting us in Heaven.  

Matthew 12:50 For whosoever shall do the will of my Father which is in heaven, the same is my brother, and sister, and mother.

May Jesus help us to love Him more than others so as to not love others more than Jesus.