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Pastor Scott Markle

Brother Cloud & RSS Feed

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I have noticed that the RSS feed has been working as it should for a few months.  (Indeed, I especially noticed because my own "Shepherding the Flock" blog postings are now showing up in the RSS feed.)  However, I have NOT noticed Brother Cloud's RSS feed over the past few weeks.  I was wondering if I myself am simply blind, and cannot see afar off, and have just missed them day after day after day?  Or, if there is some other reason why Brother Cloud's RSS feed is actually not present?

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I have been receiving Bro Cloud's emails for years.  I had not noticed them recently.  Your post Bro Scott made me look to see why,  I receive his emails to an old email account which I have only one or two others that still use it.  When my laptop packed up and I bought a new one, I hadn't added that email account.  I went on my webmail and I am still getting them.  I will have to read them.

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Just now, Pastor Scott Markle said:

I get them in my email as well, which is the reason that I did notice.  Lately, I have not seen the matching RSS feed here on the forum.

I had wondered why there had been no comments on any of his postings but then I would get busy with other things and never get around to actually checking the RSS feed section. Most often I only go by what shows up in the unread content.

Good catch on your part!

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Sometimes I comment on them. Not all the time. Depends on the subject.

We subscribe to the hard copy of O'Timothy as we like to sit down and leave the paper for others to read as well.

O Timothy is one of the best national Christian newspapers/magazines. 

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On ‎3‎/‎25‎/‎2016 at 0:13 PM, Pastor Scott Markle said:

I have noticed that the RSS feed has been working as it should for a few months.  (Indeed, I especially noticed because my own "Shepherding the Flock" blog postings are now showing up in the RSS feed.)  However, I have NOT noticed Brother Cloud's RSS feed over the past few weeks.  I was wondering if I myself am simply blind, and cannot see afar off, and have just missed them day after day after day?  Or, if there is some other reason why Brother Cloud's RSS feed is actually not present?

Is there some form of answer forthcoming?  Or . . .?

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9 minutes ago, Salyan said:

I think Bro. Matt's been pretty busy lately; he doesn't seem to have had much time to spend on OB lately. Unfortunately he's probably the only one that can check on the RSS feeds.

I thank you for responding, and thus for acknowledging the existence of my question.

I understood that Brother Matt was quite busy at present, and thus has not had much time toward the forum lately.

Primarily, I was wondering why other RSS feeds seem to be "feeding" (including my own blog), while Brother Cloud's has not.  Indeed, I was wondering if there had been some decision to discontinue Brother Cloud's "feed."

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20 hours ago, Pastor Scott Markle said:

 Indeed, I was wondering if there had been some decision to discontinue Brother Cloud's "feed."

Not that I've heard of in moderator discussion, at least.

Personally, I wouldn't be against discontinuing it. Bro. Cloud is spot on in a lot of areas, but his teachings about repentance are problematic and his attitude is getting more and more arrogant. I really feel that I can't direct people to his resources anymore lest they be turned off the topic by his attitude.

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2 minutes ago, Salyan said:

Not that I've heard of in moderator discussion, at least.

Personally, I wouldn't be against discontinuing it. Bro. Cloud is spot on in a lot of areas, but his teachings about repentance are problematic and his attitude is getting more and more arrogant. I really feel that I can't direct people to his resources anymore lest they be turned off the topic by his attitude.

What is problematic about the repentance teachings in your opinion?

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I didn't say teaching repentance in general is wrong - cause you're right! It's part of salvation! - just that David Cloud's teaching on it is problematic.

Um... let's see if I can explain this clearly. The reason I used that particular wording is that there's nothing cut and dried to point to - his teachings aren't wrong, per se, just problematic, and the problems I see have arisen primarily out of experience and observation.

You see, a number of years ago, I was reading through his article against lordship salvation (which itself is a twisted view of repentance). In that article, he was teaching against lordship salvation - yet somehow the way he presented repentance came across to me in a very confusing manner. Because of that article, I began questioning my own salvation. I was very young when I was saved - I'm not actually sure when exactly I did get saved. (Before you ask, yes, I have made sure of salvation as an adult and yes, I know I am saved. I still believe that I did get saved when I was quite young, but God has not seen fit to let me know exactly when that was yet!) The crux of the questioning centered around repentance - did I repent enough? did I repent properly?  All that confusion came out of that article - which, confusingly enough, was supposed to be teaching against the very kind of twisted ideas on repentance that it produced. Because repentance is not us ceasing to sin. It is not even promising not to sin. It is simply the change of mind/attitude/worldview that must occur when a sinner realizes that his sin is not okay, that it is separating him from God and deserving of hell, and that he needs and desires Christ's salvation, and turns to Christ for that salvation. Yes, it has the sense of turning from sin, but it is not the actual cessation of sin - for how can a sinner cease to sin? It is not committing to stop sinning in the future (although we know that as a believer, the Holy Spirit will help us to sin less as we walk by faith), for that is the heresy commonly termed 'lordship salvation', and is really a works salvation ("If I do this, stop doing this, I will be saved")

The last few years we had a schism develop in our church over the definition of repentance. Our pastor taught repentance as described above (only probably more clearly than I've described it), but a group developed that added... something... to it. (I actually avoided discussing it in detail with them, as it was during that time that I realized I needed to know what I believed in this area regardless of other's teachings. So I avoided talking to any people about it until I could thoroughly study it out in the Scriptures for myself.)  It was like salvation couldn't be simple for them. Repentance needed to be the putting away of all known sin - a great beast of a hurdle that must be crossed before someone could simply trust Christ for salvation. This group caused much division before finally leaving the church. And they were all the staunchest David Cloud supporters in the congregation; they used his materials religiously. After my own experience with the confusion about repentance that his articles caused in my life, I can't help thinking that the connection between David Cloud's writings and the twisted ideas of repentance that group developed cannot be a coincidence.

So there you have it. I cannot unilaterally say that Cloud's writings on repentance are wrong, because I don't know of any spot that I can put my finger on and identify categorically false doctrine. But they are problematic, because something about them has caused confusion and division in my own life and my church.

:twocents:

 

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We discussed this several years ago Salyan, many folks here participated in the discussion then.

 

I do believe you're quite incorrect on both Brother Cloud's attitude and Lordship Salvation and Repentance for salvation.  We can all get prideful from time to time and Cloud is not immune from that sin either.  

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I dunno-I thought his teaching was pretty cut and dry: At salvation, one has a general heart repentance, basically in admitting you're a sinner, one turns in their heart to an attitude of repentance, of turning from that path, to the path of obedience. It is an attitude, an understanding, but nothing more. Once one is saved, then repentance becomes active- because at salvation a person doesn't know all they are to repent of-so as one matures as a believer and learns right from wrong, good from evil, then we actively turn from sin and to good works.

So one is an attitude, of the heart, while the other is active, learning to live for Christ. The first of the heart, the second involving heart and body and mind. In fact I think it's harder to put into words than to believe, which is maybe where the problem lies. as I write about it, it even seems a bit convoluted.

But that's the way I understand it is taught.

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3 hours ago, Salyan said:

I didn't say teaching repentance in general is wrong - cause you're right! It's part of salvation! - just that David Cloud's teaching on it is problematic.

Um... let's see if I can explain this clearly. The reason I used that particular wording is that there's nothing cut and dried to point to - his teachings aren't wrong, per se, just problematic, and the problems I see have arisen primarily out of experience and observation.

You see, a number of years ago, I was reading through his article against lordship salvation (which itself is a twisted view of repentance). In that article, he was teaching against lordship salvation - yet somehow the way he presented repentance came across to me in a very confusing manner. Because of that article, I began questioning my own salvation. I was very young when I was saved - I'm not actually sure when exactly I did get saved. (Before you ask, yes, I have made sure of salvation as an adult and yes, I know I am saved. I still believe that I did get saved when I was quite young, but God has not seen fit to let me know exactly when that was yet!) The crux of the questioning centered around repentance - did I repent enough? did I repent properly?  All that confusion came out of that article - which, confusingly enough, was supposed to be teaching against the very kind of twisted ideas on repentance that it produced. Because repentance is not us ceasing to sin. It is not even promising not to sin. It is simply the change of mind/attitude/worldview that must occur when a sinner realizes that his sin is not okay, that it is separating him from God and deserving of hell, and that he needs and desires Christ's salvation, and turns to Christ for that salvation. Yes, it has the sense of turning from sin, but it is not the actual cessation of sin - for how can a sinner cease to sin? It is not committing to stop sinning in the future (although we know that as a believer, the Holy Spirit will help us to sin less as we walk by faith), for that is the heresy commonly termed 'lordship salvation', and is really a works salvation ("If I do this, stop doing this, I will be saved")

The last few years we had a schism develop in our church over the definition of repentance. Our pastor taught repentance as described above (only probably more clearly than I've described it), but a group developed that added... something... to it. (I actually avoided discussing it in detail with them, as it was during that time that I realized I needed to know what I believed in this area regardless of other's teachings. So I avoided talking to any people about it until I could thoroughly study it out in the Scriptures for myself.)  It was like salvation couldn't be simple for them. Repentance needed to be the putting away of all known sin - a great beast of a hurdle that must be crossed before someone could simply trust Christ for salvation. This group caused much division before finally leaving the church. And they were all the staunchest David Cloud supporters in the congregation; they used his materials religiously. After my own experience with the confusion about repentance that his articles caused in my life, I can't help thinking that the connection between David Cloud's writings and the twisted ideas of repentance that group developed cannot be a coincidence.

So there you have it. I cannot unilaterally say that Cloud's writings on repentance are wrong, because I don't know of any spot that I can put my finger on and identify categorically false doctrine. But they are problematic, because something about them has caused confusion and division in my own life and my church.

:twocents:

 

I do not see a problem with anything you went through Salyan (barring the schism in church that is). It was good for you and a wake up call.

I don't think the Bible supports childhood regeneration period. Raise up a child in the way that they should go and when they are old, they will not depart from it. Your childhood experience was seeds sown and watered only. Your repentance (not your exact words but sounds like it means repentance) from your own admittance here came as an adult. A child raised in a fundamental christian home has no other idea of God besides what the born again parents teach, what could you have possibly repented away from in your mind or heart? That fact applies to all children actually. Their beliefs, values and ideas all come from the parents until they hit that wonderful age called puberty. That is when they develop their own ideas and the parents ideas are quickly replaced by their own ideas. Caveat: I only know what I read so don't come back too indigent please.

The schism issue at your church sounds like that small group of people had little understanding of what Cloud was teaching to be honest with you. Hardly Cloud's fault IMO.

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And again I feel the need to point out the "supposed" need that people feel to go outside of their own local church for their spiritual food.

God gave us the church for our learning and edification.

 Ac 20:28 Take heed therefore unto yourselves, and to all the flock, over the which the Holy Ghost hath made you overseers, to feed the church of God, which he hath purchased with his own blood. 

 1Ti 3:15 But if I tarry long, that thou mayest know how thou oughtest to behave thyself in the house of God, which is the church of the living God, the pillar and ground of the truth. 

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Well, Paul at least a couple times went to Jerusalem for clarification and edification on some issues, both for himself and for other churches. While our local church ought to be our primary place for such, we also have our personal Bible reading and study, family devotions, many attend conferences at other local churches, and when the Bible says to Study to shew thyself approved unto God, it doesn't say JUST study the Bible, (or at that time, the epistles and the OT)-I think it is open to studying ALL good writings. Certainly no man is always right, and when we go outside our local church, we ought to be very careful.

But also consider, say, the pastor-he doesn't get to hear preaching at the local church, he IS the preaching at the local church-Bible study is great and the most important, but as you know, even he needs edification from outside, as well.

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There must be some measure of confusion in the way Cloud puts forth matters regarding repentance, at least some of the time. I've noticed there have been several times Cloud has responded to people on this issue. It seems many read his thoughts on this, think he is promoting a form of Lordship Salvation, and write him about it. Cloud answers, saying he doesn't believe in Lordship Salvation but in his attempt to clarify his view of repentance it seems many are yet confused and the cycle repeats itself.

I firmly believe repentance is necessary, too many leave this out. There is a line between those who say repentance means a full turning from sin before one can be saved, and biblical repentance. This line sometimes is blurred. Even trying to explain what Scripture says of repentance can be done in a manner that confuses people.

Cloud says he doesn't believe in Lordship Salvation, but I've read some of his statements on repentance and I can see how some could come away thinking otherwise.

As for Clouds "arrogance" and such; it seems big Cloud supporters don't see it so much, those who like Cloud in general see it but mostly ignore it, but those unfamiliar with him often seem to be hit in the face with it. I've had many people I've pointed to an article by Cloud who said they couldn't get around his arrogance/pride/ego to get anything good from his article.

I like much of Cloud's stuff, especially his older stuff. While I still point some to his older material, I've found it counter productive to point them to his more recent writings.

On the point James raises, while I don't agree with a 100% ban on anything outside what a person gets in their church, I do believe much caution is in order. Outside material shouldn't be a persons main source of learning, which should come from Scripture reading and study and sermons and teachings at their church.

Any outside material which contradicts, even seemingly, what a persons pastor teaches should be discussed with the pastor for clarification on the matter. Unless a person is a mature Christian, and even then to an extent, it would be wise to ask the pastor for a list of books they believe would benefit them rather than just pulling a book from a shelf somewhere.

Unfortunately, the issue James raises is a serious problem in many churches. It seems some congregations are filled with those who will devour a Rick Warren book (just an example), apply that to their lives, but couldn't give even a basic idea of what their pastor has been preaching on.

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22 hours ago, Ukulelemike said:

Well, Paul at least a couple times went to Jerusalem for clarification and edification on some issues, both for himself and for other churches. While our local church ought to be our primary place for such, we also have our personal Bible reading and study, family devotions, many attend conferences at other local churches, and when the Bible says to Study to shew thyself approved unto God, it doesn't say JUST study the Bible, (or at that time, the epistles and the OT)-I think it is open to studying ALL good writings. Certainly no man is always right, and when we go outside our local church, we ought to be very careful.

But also consider, say, the pastor-he doesn't get to hear preaching at the local church, he IS the preaching at the local church-Bible study is great and the most important, but as you know, even he needs edification from outside, as well.

I agree to a point Mike, but while we are admonished to study to show ourselves approved to God, I think this must revolve around the Scriptures, not the writings of man.  2Ti 2:15 Study to shew thyself approved unto God, a workman that needeth not to be ashamed, rightly dividing the word of truth. 
16 But shun profane and vain babblings: for they will increase unto more ungodliness. 

How many books, movies, programs and popular preachers constitute profane and vain babblings?

While Paul did go to Jerusalem, it was not to hear the preaching. It was to clear up false teaching from heretics that came down from that church. After all, the churches he was representing had been started by the church at Jerusalem. The church at Jerusalem was a solid teaching church. For Paul and the other churches to hear that their originating church now held to a works for salvation position was troubling and needed to be clarified because they were a sister church. This was not a trip to hear someone else preach, it was to clarify doctrinal issues.  Ac 15:24 Forasmuch as we have heard, that certain which went out from us have troubled you with words, subverting your souls, saying, Ye must be circumcised, and keep the law: to whom we gave no such commandment: 
 25 It seemed good unto us, being assembled with one accord, to send chosen men unto you with our beloved Barnabas and Paul, 

Nothing wrong with a pastor going somewhere else to hear preaching and be edified by a brother pastor and church. But I was mainly pointing out the "supposed need" to get solid bible teaching from outside of our local church; as in the case of folks who constantly buy books, watch movies and programs of "so called" popular preachers. This is especially dangerous for newly saved folks who may not be grounded in The Word, it is easy to be led astray in this instance.

If our churches and pastors are doing what God called them to do, there is no need for members to be taught by outside sources. Fellowship between sister churches is a good thing, but our primary learning and teaching should come from our local church.

 Eph 1:22  And hath put all things under his feet, and gave him to be the head over all things to the church, 
 23 Which is his body, the fulness of him that filleth all in all.

 Eph 4:11  And he gave some, apostles; and some, prophets; and some, evangelists; and some, pastors and teachers; 
 12 For the perfecting of the saints, for the work of the ministry, for the edifying of the body of Christ: 
 13 Till we all come in the unity of the faith, and of the knowledge of the Son of God, unto a perfect man, unto the measure of the stature of the fulness of Christ: 
 14 That we henceforth be no more children, tossed to and fro, and carried about with every wind of doctrine, by the sleight of men, and cunning craftiness, whereby they lie in wait to deceive; 
 15 But speaking the truth in love, may grow up into him in all things, which is the head, even Christ: 
 16 From whom the whole body fitly joined together and compacted by that which every joint supplieth, according to the effectual working in the measure of every part, maketh increase of the body unto the edifying of itself in love. 

I am not trying to be contentious here; I am just firmly convinced that our local churches are the place that God has designated to be our source of learning and edification. This is one reason why we are told that the older men should be teaching the younger and the older women should be teaching the younger women. Thus the teaching of the local church has been passed down through the ages intact, as God intended it to be. 

 2Ti 2:1 Thou therefore, my son, be strong in the grace that is in Christ Jesus. 
 2 And the things that thou hast heard of me among many witnesses, the same commit thou to faithful men, who shall be able to teach others also.

Submitted respectfully in love and the spirit of edification in defence of the local church as, "The pillar and ground of the truth."

I guess from what I have written everyone can determine that I am a local church man through and through.  :D 

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Cloud's current statement regarding repentance from 5/20/16 Friday Church News Notes:

PAUL'S DOCTRINE OF REPENTANCE (Friday Church News Notes, May 20, 2016, www.wayoflife.org, fbns@wayoflife.org, 866-295-4143) - In Acts 26:13-20, the Apostle Paul recounted the ministry that Christ had given to him by revelation. He was sent to the Gentiles "to open their eyes, and to turn them from darkness to light, and from the power of Satan unto God" by exhorting them "that they should repent and turn to God, and do works meet for repentance" (Acts 26:18, 20). Consider three lessons from this. First, repentance was at the very heart of Paul's ministry. His objective was not to get men merely to "believe" in Christ in a shallow sense, not just to get them to pray a "sinner's prayer," but to have them experience a radical turning by God's power. Second, we see that repentance must issue in faith (Acts 26:18). Repentance alone does not save; it must be accompanied by faith. In Acts 20:21 Paul described salvation as "repentance toward God, and faith toward our Lord Jesus Christ." Third, repentance results in a change of life (Acts 26:20). Paul preached the same thing as John the Baptist in the matter of repentance (Mat. 3:8). Some preachers today call this doctrine of repentance a "lordship" or even a works salvation, but that is a slander. How can it be wrong to follow Paul's doctrine of repentance? Those who don't like it need to examine their own faith and trade their man-made "quick prayerism" tradition for the pure Word of God. Biblical repentance is not works. It is not a change of life; it is a dramatic change of mind toward God that results in a change of life. Charles Spurgeon wisely commented, "Do you imagine that the gospel is magnified, or God glorified by going to the worldlings and telling them that they may be saved at this moment by simply accepting Christ as their Saviour, while they are wedded to their idols and their hearts are still in love with sin? If I do so, I tell them a lie, pervert the gospel, insult Christ, and turn the grace of God into lasciviousness."  

 

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2 hours ago, John81 said:

Cloud's current statement regarding repentance from 5/20/16 Friday Church News Notes:

PAUL'S DOCTRINE OF REPENTANCE (Friday Church News Notes, May 20, 2016, www.wayoflife.org, fbns@wayoflife.org, 866-295-4143) - In Acts 26:13-20, the Apostle Paul recounted the ministry that Christ had given to him by revelation. He was sent to the Gentiles "to open their eyes, and to turn them from darkness to light, and from the power of Satan unto God" by exhorting them "that they should repent and turn to God, and do works meet for repentance" (Acts 26:18, 20). Consider three lessons from this. First, repentance was at the very heart of Paul's ministry. His objective was not to get men merely to "believe" in Christ in a shallow sense, not just to get them to pray a "sinner's prayer," but to have them experience a radical turning by God's power. Second, we see that repentance must issue in faith (Acts 26:18). Repentance alone does not save; it must be accompanied by faith. In Acts 20:21 Paul described salvation as "repentance toward God, and faith toward our Lord Jesus Christ." Third, repentance results in a change of life (Acts 26:20). Paul preached the same thing as John the Baptist in the matter of repentance (Mat. 3:8). Some preachers today call this doctrine of repentance a "lordship" or even a works salvation, but that is a slander. How can it be wrong to follow Paul's doctrine of repentance? Those who don't like it need to examine their own faith and trade their man-made "quick prayerism" tradition for the pure Word of God. Biblical repentance is not works. It is not a change of life; it is a dramatic change of mind toward God that results in a change of life. Charles Spurgeon wisely commented, "Do you imagine that the gospel is magnified, or God glorified by going to the worldlings and telling them that they may be saved at this moment by simply accepting Christ as their Saviour, while they are wedded to their idols and their hearts are still in love with sin? If I do so, I tell them a lie, pervert the gospel, insult Christ, and turn the grace of God into lasciviousness."  

 

 

Just a little teaser (since I will be away from home for the next few days, and will likely be unable to answer any questions during that time) --

 

I myself do not wholly agree with Brother Cloud's position on repentance as presented in the above article.

 

(However, I myself still would prefer that Brother Cloud's RSS feed might be included on the forum; for I believe that his depth of Bible study, even when I do not fully agree with his conclusions, is very needed within the fundamentalist movement of our time.)

Edited by Pastor Scott Markle

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I personally have been coming to this site less often because I don't see Cloud's feed on here any longer. I believe Cloud makes some great points that should be posted here and discussed.

Edited by MatthewDiscipleOfGod

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