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Backslide, Backslider, Backsliding, etc. not found in N.T.


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  • Independent Fundamental Baptist

A concordance search will reveal that the "doctrine" of "backsliding" is nowhere found in the New Testament.  This is yet another example of "replacement theology", where a doctrine that applies to Israel is misapplied to the Body of Christ.

Hosea 11:7  And my people  [Israel] are bent to backsliding from me: though they called them to the most High, none at all would exalt him.

Hosea 4:16  For Israel slideth back as a backsliding heifer: now the LORD will feed them as a lamb in a large place.

Jeremiah 8:5   Why then is this people of Jerusalem slidden back by a perpetual backsliding? they hold fast deceit, they refuse to return.

Jeremiah 3:14  Turn, O backsliding children, saith the LORD; for I am married unto you: and I will take you one of a city, and two of a family, and I will bring you to Zion:

Jeremiah 3:12  Go and proclaim these words toward the north, and say, Return, thou backsliding Israel, saith the LORD; and I will not cause mine anger to fall upon you: for I am merciful, saith the LORD, and I will not keep anger for ever.

etc.

A "doctrine" for the Body of Christ that is found in Paul's Epistles is the "doctrine" of   Walking in the Spiritsee Romans 8 & Galatians 5

This I say then, Walk in the Spirit, and ye shall not fulfil the lust of the flesh.  Galatians 5:16
For they that are after the flesh do mind the things of the flesh; but they that are after the Spirit the things of the Spirit.  Romans 8:5
A Christian is either "walking in the Spirit" or they are "walking in the flesh". 
There is no reason to take an O.T. Israeli phrase and force it to apply it to the Body of Christ.
Edited by beameup
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So then, only Jews can backslide? That is utter nonsense. When we do what they did we backslide. It has nothing to do with replacement theology, it is simply a word we have adopted to describe a specific situation.

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  • Independent Fundamental Baptist

Hello beameup

I also dislike the false doctrine of "replacement theology"; But I think it mainly applies to transferring promises God made to Israel, to the Church.

As for the idea that "backsliding" is not to be applied to New Testament Saints; I must disagree.  If what we see happening in Corinth wasn’t backsliding, I don’t know what it was.

Also, we see the end results of being a backsliding Christian, in 1 John 2:28....  
"And now, little children, abide in him; that, when he shall appear, we may have confidence, and not be ashamed before him at his coming."

------------------------
As always, I have not arrived yet; So I could be wrong.
So let me know, if you find a flaw in my logic.

 

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1 hour ago, Donald said:

Hello beameup

I also dislike the false doctrine of "replacement theology"; But I think it mainly applies to transferring promises God made to Israel, to the Church.

As for the idea that "backsliding" is not to be applied to New Testament Saints; I must disagree.  If what we see happening in Corinth wasn’t backsliding, I don’t know what it was.

Also, we see the end results of being a backsliding Christian, in 1 John 2:28....  
"And now, little children, abide in him; that, when he shall appear, we may have confidence, and not be ashamed before him at his coming."

------------------------
As always, I have not arrived yet; So I could be wrong.
So let me know, if you find a flaw in my logic.

 

Thanks for your comments, but due to the "culture" of that area, I don't doubt that they simply were not aware that they were "sinning" (as hard as that is for us to believe).  It seems to me that they were simply "feeding the flesh" (and lusts thereof).  To me, there is an obvious omission by the Holy Spirit of the word "backslide/backslider" in the entire New Testament.  Now, there is a "command" doctrine of "walking in the Holy Spirit" which, in 45 years in IFB, I have never heard a single "peep" coming from the pulpit on this "doctrine".

It's not at all unusual for O.T. (Hebrew) "doctrines" to creep slowly into the Body of Christ.  I've even seen the "curses" on Israel applied to the Body of Christ.

If my people, which are called by my name, shall humble themselves, and pray, and seek my face, and turn from their wicked ways;
then will I hear from heaven, and will forgive their sin, and will heal their land.  2 Chronicles 7:14 
Sure doesn't sound like the "Gospel of Grace" to me, but how many times have I heard this applied to the Body of Christ?
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Although we all use the term interchangeably from OT to NT, the actual meaning of the word backsliding has nothing to do with falling into fleshly sin.

It is a word by context that means "turning" from God and it does not apply to anyone born again. It is quite impossible.

This is the reason why it cannot be found in the NT.

We simply misuse the word in our time and apply it to living fully in the flesh.

IMO it probably was propagated on Christians by replacement influence at some point and we just ran with it.

Edited by wretched
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9 hours ago, beameup said:

A concordance search will reveal that the "doctrine" of "backsliding" is nowhere found in the New Testament.  This is yet another example of "replacement theology", where a doctrine that applies to Israel is misapplied to the Body of Christ.

Hosea 11:7  And my people  [Israel] are bent to backsliding from me: though they called them to the most High, none at all would exalt him.

Hosea 4:16  For Israel slideth back as a backsliding heifer: now the LORD will feed them as a lamb in a large place.

Jeremiah 8:5   Why then is this people of Jerusalem slidden back by a perpetual backsliding? they hold fast deceit, they refuse to return.

Jeremiah 3:14  Turn, O backsliding children, saith the LORD; for I am married unto you: and I will take you one of a city, and two of a family, and I will bring you to Zion:

Jeremiah 3:12  Go and proclaim these words toward the north, and say, Return, thou backsliding Israel, saith the LORD; and I will not cause mine anger to fall upon you: for I am merciful, saith the LORD, and I will not keep anger for ever.

etc.

A "doctrine" for the Body of Christ that is found in Paul's Epistles is the "doctrine" of   Walking in the Spiritsee Romans 8 & Galatians 5

This I say then, Walk in the Spirit, and ye shall not fulfil the lust of the flesh.  Galatians 5:16
For they that are after the flesh do mind the things of the flesh; but they that are after the Spirit the things of the Spirit.  Romans 8:5
A Christian is either "walking in the Spirit" or they are "walking in the flesh". 
There is no reason to take an O.T. Israeli phrase and force it to apply it to the Body of Christ.

Doctrine

Correction

Reproof

Instruction in Righteousness

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  • Independent Fundamental Baptist

The context of this post is another example of not rightly dividing God's Word, hyper-dispensationalism.

walking in the flesh and backsliding can be used interchangeably.

And Alan is right, that glorious Psalm 23 is to be used for doctrine, correction, reproof and instruction in righteousness.  Amen! 

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  • Independent Fundamental Baptist

Backsliding is indeed taught in the new testament. Not necessarily the word backslide of any state, but rather words or phrases  such as left thy first love, thou art fallen,idolater, lest he fall, so your minds should be corrupted from the simplicity that is in Christ, and not endure sound doctrine etc. The book of Galatians warns of it.  There is even indications of it for a brother overtaken in a fault.  If you think about it, even Peter is guilty of it when he denied Jesus Christ thrice.

Left thy first love / thou art fallen

Revelation 2 :1 Unto the angel of the church of Ephesus write; These things saith he that holdeth the seven stars in his right hand, who walketh in the midst of the seven golden candlesticks;

Revelation 2 :2 I know thy works, and thy labour, and thy patience, and how thou canst not bear them which are evil: and thou hast tried them which say they are apostles, and are not, and hast found them liars:

Revelation 2 :3 And hast borne, and hast patience, and for my name's sake hast laboured, and hast not fainted.

Revelation 2 :4 Nevertheless I have somewhat against thee, because thou hast left thy first love.

Revelation 2 :5 Remember therefore from whence thou art fallen, and repent, and do the first works; or else I will come unto thee quickly, and will remove thy candlestick out of his place, except thou repent.

Revelation 2 :6 But this thou hast, that thou hatest the deeds of the Nicolaitans, which I also hate.

Revelation 2 :7 He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches; To him that overcometh will I give to eat of the tree of life, which is in the midst of the paradise of God.

Idolater / lest he fall

1 Corinthians 5 :11 But now I have written unto you not to keep company, if any man that is called a brother be a fornicator, or covetous, or an idolater, or a railer, or a drunkard, or an extortioner; with such an one no not to eat.

1 Corinthians 5 :12 For what have I to do to judge them also that are without? do not ye judge them that are within?

1 Corinthians 5 :13 But them that are without God judgeth. Therefore put away from among yourselves that wicked person.

1 Corinthians 10 :1 Moreover, brethren, I would not that ye should be ignorant, how that all our fathers were under the cloud, and all passed through the sea;

1 Corinthians 10 :2 And were all baptized unto Moses in the cloud and in the sea;

1 Corinthians 10 :3 And did all eat the same spiritual meat;

1 Corinthians 10 :4 And did all drink the same spiritual drink: for they drank of that spiritual Rock that followed them: and that Rock was Christ.

1 Corinthians 10 :5 But with many of them God was not well pleased: for they were overthrown in the wilderness.

1 Corinthians 10 :6 Now these things were our examples, to the intent we should not lust after evil things, as they also lusted.

1 Corinthians 10 :7 Neither be ye idolaters, as were some of them; as it is written, The people sat down to eat and drink, and rose up to play.

1 Corinthians 10 :8 Neither let us commit fornication, as some of them committed, and fell in one day three and twenty thousand.

1 Corinthians 10 :9 Neither let us tempt Christ, as some of them also tempted, and were destroyed of serpents.

1 Corinthians 10 :10 Neither murmur ye, as some of them also murmured, and were destroyed of the destroyer.

1 Corinthians 10 :11 Now all these things happened unto them for ensamples: and they are written for our admonition, upon whom the ends of the world are come.

1 Corinthians 10 :12 Wherefore let him that thinketh he standeth take heed lest he fall.

 

so your minds should be corrupted from the simplicity that is in Christ / bewitched you / not obey the truth / fallen from grace

2 Corinthians 11 :1 Would to God ye could bear with me a little in my folly: and indeed bear with me.

2 Corinthians 11 :2 For I am jealous over you with godly jealousy: for I have espoused you to one husband, that I may present you as a chaste virgin to Christ.

2 Corinthians 11 :3 But I fear, lest by any means, as the serpent beguiled Eve through his subtilty, so your minds should be corrupted from the simplicity that is in Christ.

2 Corinthians 11 :4 For if he that cometh preacheth another Jesus, whom we have not preached, or if ye receive another spirit, which ye have not received, or another gospel, which ye have not accepted, ye might well bear with him.

Galatians 3 :1 O foolish Galatians, who hath bewitched you, that ye should not obey the truth, before whose eyes Jesus Christ hath been evidently set forth, crucified among you?

Galatians 3 :2 This only would I learn of you, Received ye the Spirit by the works of the law, or by the hearing of faith?

Galatians 3 :3 Are ye so foolish? having begun in the Spirit, are ye now made perfect by the flesh?

Galatians 3 :4 Have ye suffered so many things in vain? if it be yet in vain.

Galatians 3 :5 He therefore that ministereth to you the Spirit, and worketh miracles among you, doeth he it by the works of the law, or by the hearing of faith?

Galatians 5 :1 Stand fast therefore in the liberty wherewith Christ hath made us free, and be not entangled again with the yoke of bondage.

Galatians 5 :2 Behold, I Paul say unto you, that if ye be circumcised, Christ shall profit you nothing.

Galatians 5 :3 For I testify again to every man that is circumcised, that he is a debtor to do the whole law.

Galatians 5 :4 Christ is become of no effect unto you, whosoever of you are justified by the law; ye are fallen from grace.

Galatians 5 :5 For we through the Spirit wait for the hope of righteousness by faith.

Galatians 5 :6 For in Jesus Christ neither circumcision availeth any thing, nor uncircumcision; but faith which worketh by love.

Galatians 5 :7 Ye did run well; who did hinder you that ye should not obey the truth?

Galatians 5 :8 This persuasion cometh not of him that calleth you.

Galatians 5 :9 A little leaven leaveneth the whole lump.

Galatians 5 :10 I have confidence in you through the Lord, that ye will be none otherwise minded: but he that troubleth you shall bear his judgment, whosoever he be.

Galatians 5 :11 And I, brethren, if I yet preach circumcision, why do I yet suffer persecution? then is the offence of the cross ceased.

Galatians 5 :12 I would they were even cut off which trouble you.

 

not endure sound doctrine /  turn away their ears from the truth

2 Timothy 4 :1 I charge thee therefore before God, and the Lord Jesus Christ, who shall judge the quick and the dead at his appearing and his kingdom;

2 Timothy 4 :2 Preach the word; be instant in season, out of season; reprove, rebuke, exhort with all longsuffering and doctrine.

2 Timothy 4 :3 For the time will come when they will not endure sound doctrine; but after their own lusts shall they heap to themselves teachers, having itching ears;

2 Timothy 4 :4 And they shall turn away their ears from the truth, and shall be turned unto fables.

2 Timothy 4 :5 But watch thou in all things, endure afflictions, do the work of an evangelist, make full proof of thy ministry.

 

overtaken in a fault / fall into condemnation / do err from the truth

Galatians 6 :1 Brethren, if a man be overtaken in a fault, ye which are spiritual, restore such an one in the spirit of meekness; considering thyself, lest thou also be tempted.

James 5:12 But above all things, my brethren, swear not, neither by heaven, neither by the earth, neither by any other oath: but let your yea be yea; and your nay, nay; lest ye fall into condemnation.

James 5 :19 Brethren, if any of you do err from the truth, and one convert him;

James 5 :20 Let him know, that he which converteth the sinner from the error of his way shall save a soul from death, and shall hide a multitude of sins.

 

Peter's denies thrice / curse and to swear , saying, I know not the man / thou shalt deny me thrice

Matthew 26 :57 And they that had laid hold on Jesus led him away to Caiaphas the high priest, where the scribes and the elders were assembled.

Matthew 26 :58 But Peter followed him afar off unto the high priest's palace, and went in, and sat with the servants, to see the end.

Matthew 26 :59 Now the chief priests, and elders, and all the council, sought false witness against Jesus, to put him to death;

Matthew 26 :60 But found none: yea, though many false witnesses came, yet found they none. At the last came two false witnesses,

Matthew 26 :61 And said, This fellow said, I am able to destroy the temple of God, and to build it in three days.

Matthew 26 :62 And the high priest arose, and said unto him, Answerest thou nothing? what is it which these witness against thee?

Matthew 26 :63 But Jesus held his peace. And the high priest answered and said unto him, I adjure thee by the living God, that thou tell us whether thou be the Christ, the Son of God.

Matthew 26 :64 Jesus saith unto him, Thou hast said: nevertheless I say unto you, Hereafter shall ye see the Son of man sitting on the right hand of power, and coming in the clouds of heaven.

Matthew 26 :65 Then the high priest rent his clothes, saying, He hath spoken blasphemy; what further need have we of witnesses? behold, now ye have heard his blasphemy.

Matthew 26 :66 What think ye? They answered and said, He is guilty of death.

Matthew 26 :67 Then did they spit in his face, and buffeted him; and others smote him with the palms of their hands,

Matthew 26 :68 Saying, Prophesy unto us, thou Christ, Who is he that smote thee?

Matthew 26 :69 Now Peter sat without in the palace: and a damsel came unto him, saying, Thou also wast with Jesus of Galilee.

Matthew 26 :70 But he denied before them all, saying, I know not what thou sayest.

Matthew 26 :71 And when he was gone out into the porch, another maid saw him, and said unto them that were there, This fellow was also with Jesus of Nazareth.

Matthew 26 :72 And again he denied with an oath, I do not know the man.

Matthew 26 :73 And after a while came unto him they that stood by, and said to Peter, Surely thou also art one of them; for thy speech bewrayeth thee.

Matthew 26 :74 Then began he to curse and to swear, saying, I know not the man. And immediately the cock crew.

Matthew 26 :75 And Peter remembered the word of Jesus, which said unto him, Before the cock crow, thou shalt deny me thrice. And he went out, and wept bitterly.

 

 

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9 hours ago, Kleptes said:

Backsliding is indeed taught in the new testament. Not necessarily the word backslide of any state, but rather words or phrases  such as left thy first love, thou art fallen,idolater, lest he fall, so your minds should be corrupted from the simplicity that is in Christ, and not endure sound doctrine etc. The book of Galatians warns of it.  There is even indications of it for a brother overtaken in a fault.  If you think about it, even Peter is guilty of it when he denied Jesus Christ thrice.

Left thy first love / thou art fallen

Revelation 2 :1 Unto the angel of the church of Ephesus write; These things saith he that holdeth the seven stars in his right hand, who walketh in the midst of the seven golden candlesticks;

Revelation 2 :2 I know thy works, and thy labour, and thy patience, and how thou canst not bear them which are evil: and thou hast tried them which say they are apostles, and are not, and hast found them liars:

Revelation 2 :3 And hast borne, and hast patience, and for my name's sake hast laboured, and hast not fainted.

Revelation 2 :4 Nevertheless I have somewhat against thee, because thou hast left thy first love.

Revelation 2 :5 Remember therefore from whence thou art fallen, and repent, and do the first works; or else I will come unto thee quickly, and will remove thy candlestick out of his place, except thou repent.

Revelation 2 :6 But this thou hast, that thou hatest the deeds of the Nicolaitans, which I also hate.

Revelation 2 :7 He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches; To him that overcometh will I give to eat of the tree of life, which is in the midst of the paradise of God.

Idolater / lest he fall

1 Corinthians 5 :11 But now I have written unto you not to keep company, if any man that is called a brother be a fornicator, or covetous, or an idolater, or a railer, or a drunkard, or an extortioner; with such an one no not to eat.

1 Corinthians 5 :12 For what have I to do to judge them also that are without? do not ye judge them that are within?

1 Corinthians 5 :13 But them that are without God judgeth. Therefore put away from among yourselves that wicked person.

1 Corinthians 10 :1 Moreover, brethren, I would not that ye should be ignorant, how that all our fathers were under the cloud, and all passed through the sea;

1 Corinthians 10 :2 And were all baptized unto Moses in the cloud and in the sea;

1 Corinthians 10 :3 And did all eat the same spiritual meat;

1 Corinthians 10 :4 And did all drink the same spiritual drink: for they drank of that spiritual Rock that followed them: and that Rock was Christ.

1 Corinthians 10 :5 But with many of them God was not well pleased: for they were overthrown in the wilderness.

1 Corinthians 10 :6 Now these things were our examples, to the intent we should not lust after evil things, as they also lusted.

1 Corinthians 10 :7 Neither be ye idolaters, as were some of them; as it is written, The people sat down to eat and drink, and rose up to play.

1 Corinthians 10 :8 Neither let us commit fornication, as some of them committed, and fell in one day three and twenty thousand.

1 Corinthians 10 :9 Neither let us tempt Christ, as some of them also tempted, and were destroyed of serpents.

1 Corinthians 10 :10 Neither murmur ye, as some of them also murmured, and were destroyed of the destroyer.

1 Corinthians 10 :11 Now all these things happened unto them for ensamples: and they are written for our admonition, upon whom the ends of the world are come.

1 Corinthians 10 :12 Wherefore let him that thinketh he standeth take heed lest he fall.

 

so your minds should be corrupted from the simplicity that is in Christ / bewitched you / not obey the truth / fallen from grace

2 Corinthians 11 :1 Would to God ye could bear with me a little in my folly: and indeed bear with me.

2 Corinthians 11 :2 For I am jealous over you with godly jealousy: for I have espoused you to one husband, that I may present you as a chaste virgin to Christ.

2 Corinthians 11 :3 But I fear, lest by any means, as the serpent beguiled Eve through his subtilty, so your minds should be corrupted from the simplicity that is in Christ.

2 Corinthians 11 :4 For if he that cometh preacheth another Jesus, whom we have not preached, or if ye receive another spirit, which ye have not received, or another gospel, which ye have not accepted, ye might well bear with him.

Galatians 3 :1 O foolish Galatians, who hath bewitched you, that ye should not obey the truth, before whose eyes Jesus Christ hath been evidently set forth, crucified among you?

Galatians 3 :2 This only would I learn of you, Received ye the Spirit by the works of the law, or by the hearing of faith?

Galatians 3 :3 Are ye so foolish? having begun in the Spirit, are ye now made perfect by the flesh?

Galatians 3 :4 Have ye suffered so many things in vain? if it be yet in vain.

Galatians 3 :5 He therefore that ministereth to you the Spirit, and worketh miracles among you, doeth he it by the works of the law, or by the hearing of faith?

Galatians 5 :1 Stand fast therefore in the liberty wherewith Christ hath made us free, and be not entangled again with the yoke of bondage.

Galatians 5 :2 Behold, I Paul say unto you, that if ye be circumcised, Christ shall profit you nothing.

Galatians 5 :3 For I testify again to every man that is circumcised, that he is a debtor to do the whole law.

Galatians 5 :4 Christ is become of no effect unto you, whosoever of you are justified by the law; ye are fallen from grace.

Galatians 5 :5 For we through the Spirit wait for the hope of righteousness by faith.

Galatians 5 :6 For in Jesus Christ neither circumcision availeth any thing, nor uncircumcision; but faith which worketh by love.

Galatians 5 :7 Ye did run well; who did hinder you that ye should not obey the truth?

Galatians 5 :8 This persuasion cometh not of him that calleth you.

Galatians 5 :9 A little leaven leaveneth the whole lump.

Galatians 5 :10 I have confidence in you through the Lord, that ye will be none otherwise minded: but he that troubleth you shall bear his judgment, whosoever he be.

Galatians 5 :11 And I, brethren, if I yet preach circumcision, why do I yet suffer persecution? then is the offence of the cross ceased.

Galatians 5 :12 I would they were even cut off which trouble you.

 

not endure sound doctrine /  turn away their ears from the truth

2 Timothy 4 :1 I charge thee therefore before God, and the Lord Jesus Christ, who shall judge the quick and the dead at his appearing and his kingdom;

2 Timothy 4 :2 Preach the word; be instant in season, out of season; reprove, rebuke, exhort with all longsuffering and doctrine.

2 Timothy 4 :3 For the time will come when they will not endure sound doctrine; but after their own lusts shall they heap to themselves teachers, having itching ears;

2 Timothy 4 :4 And they shall turn away their ears from the truth, and shall be turned unto fables.

2 Timothy 4 :5 But watch thou in all things, endure afflictions, do the work of an evangelist, make full proof of thy ministry.

 

overtaken in a fault / fall into condemnation / do err from the truth

Galatians 6 :1 Brethren, if a man be overtaken in a fault, ye which are spiritual, restore such an one in the spirit of meekness; considering thyself, lest thou also be tempted.

James 5:12 But above all things, my brethren, swear not, neither by heaven, neither by the earth, neither by any other oath: but let your yea be yea; and your nay, nay; lest ye fall into condemnation.

James 5 :19 Brethren, if any of you do err from the truth, and one convert him;

James 5 :20 Let him know, that he which converteth the sinner from the error of his way shall save a soul from death, and shall hide a multitude of sins.

 

Peter's denies thrice / curse and to swear , saying, I know not the man / thou shalt deny me thrice

Matthew 26 :57 And they that had laid hold on Jesus led him away to Caiaphas the high priest, where the scribes and the elders were assembled.

Matthew 26 :58 But Peter followed him afar off unto the high priest's palace, and went in, and sat with the servants, to see the end.

Matthew 26 :59 Now the chief priests, and elders, and all the council, sought false witness against Jesus, to put him to death;

Matthew 26 :60 But found none: yea, though many false witnesses came, yet found they none. At the last came two false witnesses,

Matthew 26 :61 And said, This fellow said, I am able to destroy the temple of God, and to build it in three days.

Matthew 26 :62 And the high priest arose, and said unto him, Answerest thou nothing? what is it which these witness against thee?

Matthew 26 :63 But Jesus held his peace. And the high priest answered and said unto him, I adjure thee by the living God, that thou tell us whether thou be the Christ, the Son of God.

Matthew 26 :64 Jesus saith unto him, Thou hast said: nevertheless I say unto you, Hereafter shall ye see the Son of man sitting on the right hand of power, and coming in the clouds of heaven.

Matthew 26 :65 Then the high priest rent his clothes, saying, He hath spoken blasphemy; what further need have we of witnesses? behold, now ye have heard his blasphemy.

Matthew 26 :66 What think ye? They answered and said, He is guilty of death.

Matthew 26 :67 Then did they spit in his face, and buffeted him; and others smote him with the palms of their hands,

Matthew 26 :68 Saying, Prophesy unto us, thou Christ, Who is he that smote thee?

Matthew 26 :69 Now Peter sat without in the palace: and a damsel came unto him, saying, Thou also wast with Jesus of Galilee.

Matthew 26 :70 But he denied before them all, saying, I know not what thou sayest.

Matthew 26 :71 And when he was gone out into the porch, another maid saw him, and said unto them that were there, This fellow was also with Jesus of Nazareth.

Matthew 26 :72 And again he denied with an oath, I do not know the man.

Matthew 26 :73 And after a while came unto him they that stood by, and said to Peter, Surely thou also art one of them; for thy speech bewrayeth thee.

Matthew 26 :74 Then began he to curse and to swear, saying, I know not the man. And immediately the cock crew.

Matthew 26 :75 And Peter remembered the word of Jesus, which said unto him, Before the cock crow, thou shalt deny me thrice. And he went out, and wept bitterly.

 

 

None of which means the same thing as backsliding in the OT friend.

It is quite impossible for a born again believer to turn from the Living and True God and worship idols again.

Can a born again believer fall into open sin....absolutely.

Can a born again believer repent from the true God and return to idols....absolutely not.

We are used to misusing the term. Noone sealed by the Spirit can backslide (the Bible term backslide, that is)

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All I did was post verses.  I do have some questions though.  Is not the God of Abraham our God?  Isn't Jesus Christ their Saviour as he is ours?  If backsliding, like you suggest, in the old testament equals an impossibility to born again believers today. Then what  are you implying about those believers of the old testament?  Why are they examples to us and why are the things that happened considered ensamples and are written for our admonition?  Can you please explain. 

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25 minutes ago, Kleptes said:

All I did was post verses.  I do have some questions though.  Is not the God of Abraham our God?  Isn't Jesus Christ their Saviour as he is ours?  If backsliding, like you suggest, in the old testament equals an impossibility to born again believers today. Then what  are you implying about those believers of the old testament?  Why are they examples to us and why are the things that happened considered ensamples and are written for our admonition?  Can you please explain. 

Typically the term backslide (in all its forms) is contextually linked to Israel as a whole with a few individual exceptions. And it always referenced adultery against God in their hearts. It never referenced carnal sins.

 

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An Introduction to the Doctrine of Backsliding in the Old Testament
(Prior to its reference in the Old Testament prophets)


1 Samuel 15:11 – “It repenteth me that I have set up Saul to be king: for he is turned back from following me, and hath not performed my commandments. And it grieved Samuel; and he cried unto the LORD all night.”

King Saul is herein presented as an individual who “backslid.”  As such, we learn that “backsliding” is essentially to “turn back from following” the Lord by “not performing” the Lord’s commandments.

1 Kings 14:7-9 “Go, tell Jeroboam, Thus saith the LORD God of Israel, Forasmuch as I exalted thee from among the people, and made thee prince over my people Israel, and rent the kingdom away from the house of David, and gave it thee: and yet thou hast not been as my servant David, who kept my commandments, and who followed me with all his heart, to do that only which was right in mine eyes; but hast done evil above all that were before thee: for thou hast gone and made thee other gods, and molten images, to provoke me to anger, and hast cast me behind thy back.”

King Jeroboam serves as another example of “backsliding.”  As such, we learn that “backsliding” means that an individual does not follow the Lord “with all his heart,” and thus does not obey the Lord’s commandments and do only that which is right in the Lord’s eyes.  Furthermore, we learn that “backsliding” means that an individual does evil in the sight of the Lord and chooses to serve gods other than the Lord, thereby casting the Lord behind his back.  Finally, we learn that “backsliding” provokes the Lord our God unto anger.

Psalm 44:18 – “Our heart is not turned back, neither have our steps declined from thy way.”

Herein we learn that “backsliding” is first and foremost a matter of the heart, wherein an individual turns back his heart away from the Lord, which then moves that individual to turn back from a walk of obedience in the Lord’s way.

Psalm 78:56-58 – “Yet they tempted and provoked the most high God, and kept not his testimonies: but turned back, and dealt unfaithfully like their fathers: they were turned aside like a deceitful bow.  For they provoked him to anger with their high places, and moved him to jealousy with their graven images.”

Herein we learn of various characteristics in “backsliding.”  First, “backsliding” is to deal unfaithfully with the Lord.  Second, “backsliding” is to turn aside from the Lord.  Third, “backsliding” is to disobey the testimonies of the Lord.  Fourth, “backsliding” is to serve other gods than the Lord.  Finally, “backsliding” will provoke the jealous anger of the Lord.

Proverbs 14:14 – “The backslider in heart shall be filled with his own ways: and a good man shall be satisfied from himself.”

Herein again we learn that “backsliding” is first and foremost a matter of the heart.  Furthermore, we learn that a backslider will reap the corruption of his own corrupt ways.

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15 hours ago, Kleptes said:

If backsliding, like you suggest, in the old testament equals an impossibility to born again believers today. Then what  are you implying about those believers of the old testament?

Brother Kleptes,

I believe that you will find that Brother "Wretched" does NOT believe that Old Testament believers were born again (regenerated by the Holy Spirit of God).  Eternally justified by faith alone?  Yes.  Eternally saved through that justification?  Yes.  Eternally regenerated (born again)?  No.

As such, I believe that you will that in his position Brother "Wretched" believes that Old Testament believers could "fall away" from the Lord "more easily" than New Testament believers, specifically because they were NOT born again (regenerated) as we are.

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1 minute ago, Pastor Scott Markle said:

Brother Kleptes,

I believe that you will find that Brother "Wretched" does NOT believe that Old Testament believers were born again (regenerated by the Holy Spirit of God).  Eternally justified by faith alone?  Yes.  Eternally saved through that justification?  Yes.  Eternally regenerated (born again)?  No.

As such, I believe that you will that in his position Brother "Wretched" believes that Old Testament believers could "fall away" from the Lord "more easily" than New Testament believers, specifically because they were NOT born again (regenerated) as we are.

Spoken like a scholar and a gentleman whether you agree or not :)

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11 minutes ago, wretched said:

Spoken like a scholar and a gentleman whether you agree or not :)

Indeed, Brother "Wretched,"

As you are aware, I do NOT agree with your position on this matter.  Yet it is certainly appropriate for me to be honest and precise when seeking to understand and to handle your position, whether I agree with it or not.

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Brethren,

Paul the Apostle, in dealing with the backslidden saints at Corinth, said, concerning the saints in the Old Testament, "Now these things were our examples, to the intent we should not lust after evil things, as they also lusted. Neither be ye idolaters, as were some of them; as it is written, The people sat down to eat and drink, and rose up to play. Neither let us commit fornication, as some of them committed, and fell in one day three and twenty thousand. Neither let us tempt Christ, as some of them also tempted, and were destroyed of serpents. Neither murmur ye, as some of them also murmured, and were destroyed of the destroyer. Now all these things happened unto them for ensamples [ NOTE:The King James word ensample is more accurate than the modern word example]: and are written for our admonition, upon whom the ends of the world are come. 1 Corinthians 10:6-11

The wise New Testament  saint will look at the samples (or examples), of the Old Testament saint and understand that when he backslides (backslidden saints are the same in the Old Testament as the New Testament), God will  punish them: the biblical word is, "destroy." God's "intent," is to produce a fear of sin, and produce holiness and righteousness in the life of the saint in either Testament. 

God is a Holy and Righteous God and He wants His saints, not only in salvation, but in everyday living, to be Holy and Righteous.

Alan

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9 hours ago, Alan said:

Brethren,

Paul the Apostle, in dealing with the backslidden saints at Corinth, said, concerning the saints in the Old Testament, "Now these things were our examples, to the intent we should not lust after evil things, as they also lusted. Neither be ye idolaters, as were some of them; as it is written, The people sat down to eat and drink, and rose up to play. Neither let us commit fornication, as some of them committed, and fell in one day three and twenty thousand. Neither let us tempt Christ, as some of them also tempted, and were destroyed of serpents. Neither murmur ye, as some of them also murmured, and were destroyed of the destroyer. Now all these things happened unto them for ensamples [ NOTE:The King James word ensample is more accurate than the modern word example]: and are written for our admonition, upon whom the ends of the world are come. 1 Corinthians 10:6-11

The wise New Testament  saint will look at the samples (or examples), of the Old Testament saint and understand that when he backslides (backslidden saints are the same in the Old Testament as the New Testament), God will  punish them: the biblical word is, "destroy." God's "intent," is to produce a fear of sin, and produce holiness and righteousness in the life of the saint in either Testament. 

God is a Holy and Righteous God and He wants His saints, not only in salvation, but in everyday living, to be Holy and Righteous.

Alan

Still wrong Bro Alan. You inserted the word backslidden. Certainly you can see how wrong that is, can't you?? :)

There is not a single passage or mention in the NT which demonstrates a believer turning from the Living God back to or unto idols in their heart. It is quite impossible. You Scripture is not demonstrating this and is out of context.

The evidence in the OT is clear to any wise NT saint. As soon as the memory of the signs, voices, miracles or wonders faded in Israel's mind, so did their faith.

Sadly for some reason you and others insist on doctrine that is not there but be my guest and stay wrong on it.

 

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Is Peters denial just a carnal sin, or was it also rejecting his Saviour?  If you follow the narrative of Peter.  He follows a far off.  He denies saying "I know not what thou sayest." He is again asked. Peter responds by saying " I do not know not the man"  He then is approached the third time. This time instead of only saying this fellow was with Jesus of Nazareth. They also say that his speech is evident that  he is a follower of Jesus. Notice Peter begins cursing and swearing to show a bit of carnality, to try and prove that he knew not the man. In two instances, of denying Jesus Christ,he says I know not the man.  Calling him a man in this context shows that he takes away not only Jesus's  Deity, but  that He also is the Christ, the Son of the Living God.  Peter is the one who revealed that.  This denial shows no acknowledgement at all of Jesus.  That looks like a pretty backslid state. Paul indeed turned his back on the Lord.  Was Peter lost or did he lose his salvation. God forbid.  Peter weeping bitterly shows He knew he what he did was wrong.  Jesus never forsook him. He was however commanded to strengthen the brethren,which was told to him prior to his denial of Jesus. In that very context Jesus told Peter that he would thrice deny that he knows him.  Jesus also commanded Peter to feed his  lambs and sheep.

Matthew 26 :57 And they that had laid hold on Jesus led him away to Caiaphas the high priest, where the scribes and the elders were assembled.

Matthew 26 :58 But Peter followed him afar off unto the high priest's palace, and went in, and sat with the servants, to see the end.

Matthew 26 :59 Now the chief priests, and elders, and all the council, sought false witness against Jesus, to put him to death;

Matthew 26 :60 But found none: yea, though many false witnesses came, yet found they none. At the last came two false witnesses,

Matthew 26 :61 And said, This fellow said, I am able to destroy the temple of God, and to build it in three days.

Matthew 26 :62 And the high priest arose, and said unto him, Answerest thou nothing? what is it which these witness against thee?

Matthew 26 :63 But Jesus held his peace. And the high priest answered and said unto him, I adjure thee by the living God, that thou tell us whether thou be the Christ, the Son of God.

Matthew 26 :64 Jesus saith unto him, Thou hast said: nevertheless I say unto you, Hereafter shall ye see the Son of man sitting on the right hand of power, and coming in the clouds of heaven.

Matthew 26 :65 Then the high priest rent his clothes, saying, He hath spoken blasphemy; what further need have we of witnesses? behold, now ye have heard his blasphemy.

Matthew 26 :66 What think ye? They answered and said, He is guilty of death.

Matthew 26 :67 Then did they spit in his face, and buffeted him; and others smote him with the palms of their hands,

Matthew 26 :68 Saying, Prophesy unto us, thou Christ, Who is he that smote thee?

Matthew 26 :69 Now Peter sat without in the palace: and a damsel came unto him, saying, Thou also wast with Jesus of Galilee.

Matthew 26 :70 But he denied before them all, saying, I know not what thou sayest.

Matthew 26 :71 And when he was gone out into the porch, another maid saw him, and said unto them that were there, This fellow was also with Jesus of Nazareth.

Matthew 26 :72 And again he denied with an oath, I do not know the man.

Matthew 26 :73 And after a while came unto him they that stood by, and said to Peter, Surely thou also art one of them; for thy speech bewrayeth thee.

Matthew 26 :74 Then began he to curse and to swear, saying, I know not the man. And immediately the cock crew.

Matthew 26 :75 And Peter remembered the word of Jesus, which said unto him, Before the cock crow, thou shalt deny me thrice. And he went out, and wept bitterly.

Matthew 16 :13 When Jesus came into the coasts of Caesarea Philippi, he asked his disciples, saying, Whom do men say that I the Son of man am?

Matthew 16 :14 And they said, Some say that thou art John the Baptist: some, Elias; and others, Jeremias, or one of the prophets.

Matthew 16 :15 He saith unto them, But whom say ye that I am?

Matthew 16 :16 And Simon Peter answered and said, Thou art the Christ, the Son of the living God.

Matthew 16 :17 And Jesus answered and said unto him, Blessed art thou, Simon Barjona: for flesh and blood hath not revealed it unto thee, but my Father which is in heaven.

Luke 22 :31 And the Lord said, Simon, Simon, behold, Satan hath desired to have you, that he may sift you as wheat:

Luke 22 :32 But I have prayed for thee, that thy faith fail not: and when thou art converted, strengthen thy brethren.

Luke 22 :33 And he said unto him, Lord, I am ready to go with thee, both into prison, and to death.

Luke 22 :34 And he said, I tell thee, Peter, the cock shall not crow this day, before that thou shalt thrice deny that thou knowest me.

John 21 :15 So when they had dined, Jesus saith to Simon Peter, Simon, son of Jonas, lovest thou me more than these? He saith unto him, Yea, Lord; thou knowest that I love thee. He saith unto him, Feed my lambs.

 

John 21 :16 He saith to him again the second time, Simon, son of Jonas, lovest thou me? He saith unto him, Yea, Lord; thou knowest that I love thee. He saith unto him, Feed my sheep.

John 21 :17 He saith unto him the third time, Simon, son of Jonas, lovest thou me? Peter was grieved because he said unto him the third time, Lovest thou me? And he said unto him, Lord, thou knowest all things; thou knowest that I love thee. Jesus saith unto him, Feed my sheep.

John 21 :18 Verily, verily, I say unto thee, When thou wast young, thou girdedst thyself, and walkedst whither thou wouldest: but when thou shalt be old, thou shalt stretch forth thy hands, and another shall gird thee, and carry thee whither thou wouldest not.

 

Judas Iscariot on the other hand shows a dark contrast to Peter. This man was called a traitor.  Jesus even says he is lost and labels him the son of Perdition.  Peter by evidence throughout the New testament show a man who turned to God. Whereas Judas Iscariot shows a man who turned to himself.  Peter lived for Christ.  Judas Iscariot lived for himself.  Peter died for the sake of Christ.  Judas Iscariot died for the sake of conscience, in which he hung himself.  Peter shows a believer who did a terrible sin and had  Godly sorrow.  Judas Iscariot shows a man who was counted as on of the twelve, lived a lie, a betrayer, and a thief with worldly sorrow.  Peter was backslid and Judas Iscariot a lost man.

 
Matthew 10 :1 And when he had called unto him his twelve disciples, he gave them power against unclean spirits, to cast them out, and to heal all manner of sickness and all manner of disease.

Matthew 10 :2 Now the names of the twelve apostles are these; The first, Simon, who is called Peter, and Andrew his brother; James the son of Zebedee, and John his brother;

Matthew 10 :3 Philip, and Bartholomew; Thomas, and Matthew the publican; James the son of Alphaeus, and Lebbaeus, whose surname was Thaddaeus;

Matthew 10 :4 Simon the Canaanite, and Judas Iscariot, who also betrayed him.


Matthew 26 :20 Now when the even was come, he sat down with the twelve.

Matthew 26 :21 And as they did eat, he said, Verily I say unto you, that one of you shall betray me.

Matthew 26 :22 And they were exceeding sorrowful, and began every one of them to say unto him, Lord, is it I?

Matthew 26 :23 And he answered and said, He that dippeth his hand with me in the dish, the same shall betray me.

Matthew 26 :24  The Son of man goeth as it is written of him: but woe unto that man by whom the Son of man is betrayed! it had been good for that man if he had not been born.

Matthew 26 :25 Then Judas, which betrayed him, answered and said, Master, is it I? He said unto him, Thou hast said.


Matthew 26 :45 Then cometh he to his disciples, and saith unto them, Sleep on now, and take your rest: behold, the hour is at hand, and the Son of man is betrayed into the hands of sinners.

Matthew 26 :46 Rise, let us be going: behold, he is at hand that doth betray me.

Matthew 26 :47 And while he yet spake, lo, Judas, one of the twelve, came, and with him a great multitude with swords and staves, from the chief priests and elders of the people.

Matthew 26 :48 Now he that betrayed him gave them a sign, saying, Whomsoever I shall kiss, that same is he: hold him fast.

Matthew 26 :49 And forthwith he came to Jesus, and said, Hail, master; and kissed him.

Matthew 26 :50 And Jesus said unto him, Friend, wherefore art thou come? Then came they, and laid hands on Jesus, and took him.


Matthew 27 :1 When the morning was come, all the chief priests and elders of the people took counsel against Jesus to put him to death:

Matthew 27 :2 And when they had bound him, they led him away, and delivered him to Pontius Pilate the governor.

Matthew 27 :3 Then Judas, which had betrayed him, when he saw that he was condemned, repented himself, and brought again the thirty pieces of silver to the chief priests and elders,

Matthew 27 :4 Saying, I have sinned in that I have betrayed the innocent blood. And they said, What is that to us? see thou to that.

Matthew 27 :5 And he cast down the pieces of silver in the temple, and departed, and went and hanged himself.

Matthew 27 :6 And the chief priests took the silver pieces, and said, It is not lawful for to put them into the treasury, because it is the price of blood.

Matthew 27 :7 And they took counsel, and bought with them the potter's field, to bury strangers in.

Matthew 27 :8 Wherefore that field was called, The field of blood, unto this day.

Matthew 27 :9 Then was fulfilled that which was spoken by Jeremy the prophet, saying, And they took the thirty pieces of silver, the price of him that was valued, whom they of the children of Israel did value;

Matthew 27 :10 And gave them for the potter's field, as the Lord appointed me.


Acts 1 :15 And in those days Peter stood up in the midst of the disciples, and said, (the number of names together were about an hundred and twenty,)

Acts 1 :16 Men and brethren, this scripture must needs have been fulfilled, which the Holy Ghost by the mouth of David spake before concerning Judas, which was guide to them that took Jesus.

Acts 1 :17 For he was numbered with us, and had obtained part of this ministry.

Acts 1 :18 Now this man purchased a field with the reward of iniquity; and falling headlong, he burst asunder in the midst, and all his bowels gushed out.

Acts 1 :19 And it was known unto all the dwellers at Jerusalem; insomuch as that field is called in their proper tongue, Aceldama, that is to say, The field of blood.

Acts 1 :20 For it is written in the book of Psalms, Let his habitation be desolate, and let no man dwell therein: and his bishoprick let another take.

Acts 1 :21 Wherefore of these men which have companied with us all the time that the Lord Jesus went in and out among us,

Acts 1 :22 Beginning from the baptism of John, unto that same day that he was taken up from us, must one be ordained to be a witness with us of his resurrection.

Acts 1 :23 And they appointed two, Joseph called Barsabas, who was surnamed Justus, and Matthias.

Acts 1 :24 And they prayed, and said, Thou, Lord, which knowest the hearts of all men, shew whether of these two thou hast chosen,

Acts 1 :25 That he may take part of this ministry and apostleship, from which Judas by transgression fell, that he might go to his own place.

Acts 1 :26 And they gave forth their lots; and the lot fell upon Matthias; and he was numbered with the eleven apostles.

John 17 :1 These words spake Jesus, and lifted up his eyes to heaven, and said, Father, the hour is come; glorify thy Son, that thy Son also may glorify thee:

John 17 :2 As thou hast given him power over all flesh, that he should give eternal life to as many as thou hast given him.

John 17 :3 And this is life eternal, that they might know thee the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom thou hast sent.

John 17 :4 I have glorified thee on the earth: I have finished the work which thou gavest me to do.

John 17 :5 And now, O Father, glorify thou me with thine own self with the glory which I had with thee before the world was.

John 17 :6 I have manifested thy name unto the men which thou gavest me out of the world: thine they were, and thou gavest them me; and they have kept thy word.

John 17 :7 Now they have known that all things whatsoever thou hast given me are of thee.

John 17 :8 For I have given unto them the words which thou gavest me; and they have received them, and have known surely that I came out from thee, and they have believed that thou didst send me.

John 17 :9 I pray for them: I pray not for the world, but for them which thou hast given me; for they are thine.

John 17 :10 And all mine are thine, and thine are mine; and I am glorified in them.

John 17 :11 And now I am no more in the world, but these are in the world, and I come to thee. Holy Father, keep through thine own name those whom thou hast given me, that they may be one, as we are.

John 17 :12 While I was with them in the world, I kept them in thy name: those that thou gavest me I have kept, and none of them is lost, but the son of perdition; that the scripture might be fulfilled.

John 17 :13 And now come I to thee; and these things I speak in the world, that they might have my joy fulfilled in themselves.

John 17 :14 I have given them thy word; and the world hath hated them, because they are not of the world, even as I am not of the world.

John 17 :15 I pray not that thou shouldest take them out of the world, but that thou shouldest keep them from the evil.

John 17 :16 They are not of the world, even as I am not of the world.

John 17 :17 Sanctify them through thy truth: thy word is truth.

John 17 :18 As thou hast sent me into the world, even so have I also sent them into the world.

John 17 :19 And for their sakes I sanctify myself, that they also might be sanctified through the truth.
 

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1 hour ago, Kleptes said:

Is Peters denial just a carnal sin, or was it also rejecting his Saviour?  If you follow the narrative of Peter.  He follows a far off.  He denies saying "I know not what thou sayest." He is again asked. Peter responds by saying " I do not know not the man"  He then is approached the third time. This time instead of only saying this fellow was with Jesus of Nazareth. They also say that his speech is evident that  he is a follower of Jesus. Notice Peter begins cursing and swearing to show a bit of carnality, to try and prove that he knew not the man. In two instances, of denying Jesus Christ,he says I know not the man.  Calling him a man in this context shows that he takes away not only Jesus's  Deity, but  that He also is the Christ, the Son of the Living God.  Peter is the one who revealed that.  This denial shows no acknowledgement at all of Jesus.  That looks like a pretty backslid state. Paul indeed turned his back on the Lord.  Was Peter lost or did he lose his salvation. God forbid.  Peter weeping bitterly shows He knew he what he did was wrong.  Jesus never forsook him. He was however commanded to strengthen the brethren,which was told to him prior to his denial of Jesus. In that very context Jesus told Peter that he would thrice deny that he knows him.  Jesus also commanded Peter to feed his  lambs and sheep.

 

First, please understand that I am not attacking you in any way. I just feel the need to make points from a sensible perspective. You see my friend. It is pretty clear Peter was unconverted prior to Pentecost because Christ had not yet ascended and He had not yet sent the Spirit.

If anyone could have been born again prior to this then CHRIST DIED IN VAIN but the false traditions of men keep reasonable people from seeing these things for some reason.

It is all in black and white and plain English and if you study the Word front to back in the sequence of history that God laid it out in, it makes much more sense than pulling precepts out of historical context to match what you have been falsely taught. Or, even worse trying to imagine passages say something they clearly do not.

Since you bring up Peter, lets see what Jesus said to him: I disagree with your commentary in regard to Peter my friend from a sequential Bible perspective.

Luk 22:32, But I have prayed for thee, that thy faith fail not: and when thou art converted, strengthen thy brethren. Peter's conversion did not occur until after Christ's ascension, ie. Pentecost when the Spirit was poured out upon the earth.

Although Peter and all the apostles had eye-witnessed Christ's Power for nearly 3 years, they were still unregenerate. Their faith was by sight only and not from the new birth yet. Hence as soon as Christ was out of sight, so was Peter's faith.

Time and again this was the case throughout the OT with Israel.

Mat 13:15, For this people's heart is waxed gross, and their ears are dull of hearing, and their eyes they have closed; lest at any time they should see with their eyes, and hear with their ears, and should understand with their heart, and should be converted, and I should heal them.
Mat 18:3, And said, Verily I say unto you, Except ye be converted, and become as little children, ye shall not enter into the kingdom of heaven.
Mar 4:12, That seeing they may see, and not perceive; and hearing they may hear, and not understand; lest at any time they should be converted, and their sins should be forgiven them.
Joh 12:40, He hath blinded their eyes, and hardened their heart; that they should not see with their eyes, nor understand with their heart, and be converted, and I should heal them.
Act 3:19, Repent ye therefore, and be converted, that your sins may be blotted out, when the times of refreshing shall come from the presence of the Lord;
Act 28:27, For the heart of this people is waxed gross, and their ears are dull of hearing, and their eyes have they closed; lest they should see with their eyes, and hear with their ears, and understand with their heart, and should be converted, and I should heal them.

Of the Holy Spirit, Jesus had this to say:

Joh 14:16, And I will pray the Father, and he shall give you another Comforter, that he may abide with you for ever;
Joh 14:26, But the Comforter, which is the Holy Ghost, whom the Father will send in my name, he shall teach you all things, and bring all things to your remembrance, whatsoever I have said unto you.
Joh 15:26, But when the Comforter is come, whom I will send unto you from the Father, even the Spirit of truth, which proceedeth from the Father, he shall testify of me:
Joh 16:7, Nevertheless I tell you the truth; It is expedient for you that I go away: for if I go not away, the Comforter will not come unto you; but if I depart, I will send him unto you.

Acts 2: 1, And when the day of Pentecost was fully come, they were all with one accord in one place.

Acts 2:17, And it shall come to pass in the last days, saith God, I will pour out of my Spirit upon all flesh: and your sons and your daughters shall prophesy, and your young men shall see visions, and your old men shall dream dreams:

I shocks me that intelligent reasonable people are so scared of being labeled dispensational or reformed that they ignore the truths of both groups that meet in the middle in most cases. I personally could care less who labels me this or that. I will not ignore what is clearly detailed and also omitted from the Word to embrace men's fables.

I understand where you get your stand friend, I do. I have heard it for 30 plus years from all over IFB circles but it is simply wrong because it is based on precept.

This is how I determine what is truth and what is imagined by even well intentioned men: If the OT does not say "born again"; "regenerated"; born of the Spirit: new birth, converted. Then it did not exist.  Pretty simple if you think about it.

If the NT does not say "backslide"; backslidden, backslidings, backslider. Then it does not exist for us nor can it; pretty simple if you think about it.

Not sure why folks have to cloud and blend everything together when clearly God never intended for us to or He would have laid it out just as clearly in either Testament.

That is all I am saying, nothing more, nothing less.

 

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Concerning the doctrine of "backsliding," a number of points must be considered:

1.  It should be recognized that the words "backslide," "backslider," "backslidden," "backsliding," etc. are not found at all in the New Testament.  However, it should also be recognized that the point of discussion and debate is not simply over the usage of a set of words in the New Testament, but is over the presence of a particular doctrinal truth in the New Testament.  Although the words themselves are NOT found in the New Testament, is the doctrinal truth found in the New Testament in relation to New Testament believers?

2.  In order to discern correctly if the doctrine of "backsliding" is found in the New Testament, it is ABSOLUTELY necessary that one begin with a determination of the Biblical definition for "backsliding."  Since the doctrine of "backsliding" is first found in the Old Testament, and since the specific terminology of "backsliding" is only found in the Old Testament, it also necessary that an individual discern and determine the Biblical definition for "backsliding" from the Old Testament teaching on the subject.

3.  The discussion and debate of the matter itself actually is over the correct definition, for in this is the differing premises upon which the two opposing sides are built.  The side which holds that the doctrine of "backsliding" IS found in the New Testament for the New Testament believer will define "backsliding" simply as a turning away backward from the Lord in an individual's daily walk and service unto any way that is not the way of the Lord.  The side which holds that the doctrine of "backsliding" is NOT found in the New Testament for the New Testament believer will also define "backsliding" as a turning away backward from the Lord, but will indicate that it is a turning unto a way that is not at all possible for a genuine New Testament believer to engage.  (Note: Brother "Wretched" has indicated this in his definition for "backsliding" as a turning unto idolatrous worship of a false god.)

Now, I myself would hold to the position that the doctrine of "backsliding" is INDEED found in the New Testament for New Testament believers and that it is to be Biblically defined as a turning away from the Lord in an individual's daily walk and service unto any way that is not the way of the Lord.  Furthermore, I would contend that narrowing the definition and doctrine of "backsliding" in the Old Testament only unto a turning away from the Lord unto an idolatrous worship of a false god is not accurate to the whole counsel of God's Word on the subject in the Old Testament.  Finally, I would recognize that many (although not all) who would deny the doctrine of "backsliding" in the New Testament for New Testament believers hold in some manner to the doctrine of "perseverance of the saints," wherein it is spiritually impossible for a genuine New Testament believer ever to depart from a walk of faithful growth and obedience.

Edited by Pastor Scott Markle
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23 minutes ago, wretched said:

If the NT does not say "backslide"; backslidden, backslidings, backslider. Then it does not exist for us nor can it; pretty simple if you think about it.

So then, Brother "Wretched," is it just as simple to recognize that the doctrine of the "tri-unity of God" is not a true Biblical doctrine, since the terminology of "trinity" is not to be found anywhere throughout the Holy Spirit inspired Scriptures at all?

Or, is it just as simple to recognize that New Testament believers should NOT be disciplining their children with the rod (spanking), since that instruction is NOT found as such anywhere throughout the New Testament as an instruction for the New Testament believer, but is only found in the Old Testament?
 

29 minutes ago, wretched said:

This is how I determine what is truth and what is imagined by even well intentioned men: If the OT does not say "born again"; "regenerated"; born of the Spirit: new birth, converted. Then it did not exist.  Pretty simple if you think about it.

So then, Brother Wretched, are you then indicating your belief that the word family of "converting" has a specific doctrinal reference unto the doctrine of regeneration?  (Note: I myself do NOT agree with this position; however, for the sake of the argument, I shall grant it to you in relation to the following.)  If you do hold to this position, then please consider the following Old Testament passages:

Psalm 19:7 -- "The law of the LORD is perfect, converting the soul: the testimony of the LORD is sure, making wise the simple."

Psalm 51:13 -- "Then will I teach transgressors thy ways; and sinners shall be converted unto thee."

It seems to me that the "converting" of "the soul" could INDEED occur in the Old Testament, specifically through the power of God's Holy Word.

Furthermore, the New Testament also employs the terminology of "quickening" for the doctrine of regeneration, as per Ephesians 2:1-10.  So then, is the terminology of "quickening" to be found in the Old Testament?

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So then, Brother "Wretched," is it just as simple to recognize that the doctrine of the "tri-unity of God" is not a true Biblical doctrine, since the terminology of "trinity" is not to be found anywhere throughout the Holy Spirit inspired Scriptures at all?

Or, is it just as simple to recognize that New Testament believers should NOT be disciplining their children with the rod (spanking), since that instruction is NOT found as such anywhere throughout the New Testament as an instruction for the New Testament believer, but is only found in the Old Testament?
 

So then, Brother Wretched, are you then indicating your belief that the word family of "converting" has a specific doctrinal reference unto the doctrine of regeneration?  (Note: I myself do NOT agree with this position; however, for the sake of the argument, I shall grant it to you in relation to the following.)  If you do hold to this position, then please consider the following Old Testament passages:

Psalm 19:7 -- "The law of the LORD is perfect, converting the soul: the testimony of the LORD is sure, making wise the simple."

Psalm 51:13 -- "Then will I teach transgressors thy ways; and sinners shall be converted unto thee."

It seems to me that the "converting" of "the soul" could INDEED occur in the Old Testament, specifically through the power of God's Holy Word.

Furthermore, the New Testament also employs the terminology of "quickening" for the doctrine of regeneration, as per Ephesians 2:1-10.  So then, is the terminology of "quickening" to be found in the Old Testament?

Wow, what a stretch in every part of this post Scott. I am sorry you feel like this.

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Wow, what a stretch in every part of this post Scott. I am sorry you feel like this.

Brother "Wretched,"

No need for you to feel sorry for me, since I was simply following the logic of your own argument.

In your posting above, you presented the following argument:

 

If the NT does not say "backslide"; backslidden, backslidings, backslider. Then it does not exist for us nor can it; pretty simple if you think about it.

(emboldening added by Pastor Scott Markle)

The foundational logic for your above argument is then as follows -- If the terminology of "backsliding" is not in the New Testament, then the doctrine of "backsliding" does not apply to the New Testament.

I then presented two examples of doctrines where in the terminology does not exist, in God's Word at all in the first case and n the New Testament in the second case, in order to illustrate the inconsistency of your argument, as follows:

 

So then, Brother "Wretched," is it just as simple to recognize that the doctrine of the "tri-unity of God" is not a true Biblical doctrine, since the terminology of "trinity" is not to be found anywhere throughout the Holy Spirit inspired Scriptures at all?

Or, is it just as simple to recognize that New Testament believers should NOT be disciplining their children with the rod (spanking), since that instruction is NOT found as such anywhere throughout the New Testament as an instruction for the New Testament believer, but is only found in the Old Testament?

If we follow the foundational logic of your argument above with consistency, we would then get the following:

1.  If the terminology of "tri-unity" is not in the Scriptures, then the doctrine of "trinity" is not Scriptural.  Yet we would not accept this logic, since the doctrine IS in the Scriptures, although the specific terminology of "trinity" is not present.

2.  If the terminology of instruction to "spank" with the rod is not in the New Testament, then the instruction to "spank" with the rod does not apply to New Testament parenting.  Yet again we would not accept this logic, since the doctrine of parenting that IS presented in the New Testament is built upon the foundation of the doctrine of parenting that is presented in the Old Testament.

Even so, I would reject your the foundational logic of your argument against the doctrine of "backsliding" for the New Testament.  Although the specific terminology of "backsliding" is not in the New Testament, the doctrine is indeed taught in the New Testament and that New Testament doctrine is built upon the foundation of the doctrine of "backsliding" that is presented in the Old Testament.

________________________________________________________

Furthermore, in your above posting you presented the following argument against the reality of regeneration in the Old Testament, as follows:

 

This is how I determine what is truth and what is imagined by even well intentioned men: If the OT does not say "born again"; "regenerated"; born of the Spirit: new birth, converted. Then it did not exist.  Pretty simple if you think about it.

(emboldening added by Pastor Scott Markle)

Again, the foundational logic of your argument is as follows -- If the terminology of regeneration is not in the Old Testament, then regeneration did not exist in the Old Testament.

Involved in your argument, you listed a series of terminology that you appear to view as the terminology of regeneration, as follows:

1.  Born again

2. Regenerated

3. Born of the Spirit

4. New birth

5.  Converted

I then focused my attention upon the fifth listing from your list of terminology, the word "converted;" and revealed that such terminology does indeed exist in the Old Testament, as follows:

 

So then, Brother Wretched, are you then indicating your belief that the word family of "converting" has a specific doctrinal reference unto the doctrine of regeneration?  (Note: I myself do NOT agree with this position; however, for the sake of the argument, I shall grant it to you in relation to the following.)  If you do hold to this position, then please consider the following Old Testament passages:

Psalm 19:7 -- "The law of the LORD is perfect, converting the soul: the testimony of the LORD is sure, making wise the simple."

Psalm 51:13 -- "Then will I teach transgressors thy ways; and sinners shall be converted unto thee."

It seems to me that the "converting" of "the soul" could INDEED occur in the Old Testament, specifically through the power of God's Holy Word.

So then, Brother Wretched,

1.  Does the Old Testament teach the converting of the soul through the Law of the Lord, as per Psalm 19:7?

2.  Does the Old Testament teach the converting of sinners unto the Lord, as per Psalm 51:13?

3.  Even so, does the Old Testament teach the doctrine of conversion?

4.  Do you believe that the terminology and doctrine of conversion is Biblically equivalent to the doctrine of regeneration?

If you do believe this, then in accord with Psalm 19:7 & Psalm 51:13 you should acknowledge that conversion/regeneration is INDEED in the Old Testament.


Finally, in my above posting, I presented another terminology listing that the New Testament employs for regeneration (which you did not list in your own listing), as follows:

 

Furthermore, the New Testament also employs the terminology of "quickening" for the doctrine of regeneration, as per Ephesians 2:1-10.  So then, is the terminology of "quickening" to be found in the Old Testament?

The terminology that I added was that of "quickening," and the Biblical support for my claim was Ephesians 2:1-10.  So then, does Ephesians 2:1-10 use the terminology of "quickening" for regeneration?  If it does, then we can follow the foundational logic of your argument again and ask -- Does the Old Testament use the terminology of "quickening"?  If it does, then it could be further argued that quickening/regeneration is INDEED in the Old Testament.

Edited by Pastor Scott Markle
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So then, Brother "Wretched," is it just as simple to recognize that the doctrine of the "tri-unity of God" is not a true Biblical doctrine, since the terminology of "trinity" is not to be found anywhere throughout the Holy Spirit inspired Scriptures at all?

Or, is it just as simple to recognize that New Testament believers should NOT be disciplining their children with the rod (spanking), since that instruction is NOT found as such anywhere throughout the New Testament as an instruction for the New Testament believer, but is only found in the Old Testament?
 

So then, Brother Wretched, are you then indicating your belief that the word family of "converting" has a specific doctrinal reference unto the doctrine of regeneration?  (Note: I myself do NOT agree with this position; however, for the sake of the argument, I shall grant it to you in relation to the following.)  If you do hold to this position, then please consider the following Old Testament passages:

Psalm 19:7 -- "The law of the LORD is perfect, converting the soul: the testimony of the LORD is sure, making wise the simple."

Psalm 51:13 -- "Then will I teach transgressors thy ways; and sinners shall be converted unto thee."

It seems to me that the "converting" of "the soul" could INDEED occur in the Old Testament, specifically through the power of God's Holy Word.

Furthermore, the New Testament also employs the terminology of "quickening" for the doctrine of regeneration, as per Ephesians 2:1-10.  So then, is the terminology of "quickening" to be found in the Old Testament?

Sorry I could not respond to this post properly but don’t you think you are comparing doctrine with incidentals?
The new birth with spanking? Although in this example of spanking the NT does address it but not verbatim.
It would be impossible to repeat every subject in the OT again in the NT. The OT is at least ten times the volume.
What is repeated in both Testaments however is important and it is doctrine: Creation, Adam and Eve, their sin, The Law (although the NT is clear to indicate that the Law is done away in the NT), the coming Messiah, the Virgin birth, the death, burial and resurrection; Salvation by faith through Grace; Even the coming new birth is indicated in Joel (but careful to explain it as future, in the last days and NOT presently in the OT).
 
 

Brother "Wretched,"

No need for you to feel sorry for me, since I was simply following the logic of your own argument.

In your posting above, you presented the following argument:

The foundational logic for your above argument is then as follows -- If the terminology of "backsliding" is not in the New Testament, then the doctrine of "backsliding" does not apply to the New Testament.

I then presented two examples of doctrines where in the terminology does not exist, in God's Word at all in the first case and n the New Testament in the second case, in order to illustrate the inconsistency of your argument, as follows:

If we follow the foundational logic of your argument above with consistency, we would then get the following:

1.  If the terminology of "tri-unity" is not in the Scriptures, then the doctrine of "trinity" is not Scriptural.  Yet we would not accept this logic, since the doctrine IS in the Scriptures, although the specific terminology of "trinity" is not present.

2.  If the terminology of instruction to "spank" with the rod is not in the New Testament, then the instruction to "spank" with the rod does not apply to New Testament parenting.  Yet again we would not accept this logic, since the doctrine of parenting that IS presented in the New Testament is built upon the foundation of the doctrine of parenting that is presented in the Old Testament.

Even so, I would reject your the foundational logic of your argument against the doctrine of "backsliding" for the New Testament.  Although the specific terminology of "backsliding" is not in the New Testament, the doctrine is indeed taught in the New Testament and that New Testament doctrine is built upon the foundation of the doctrine of "backsliding" that is presented in the Old Testament.

________________________________________________________

Furthermore, in your above posting you presented the following argument against the reality of regeneration in the Old Testament, as follows:

Again, the foundational logic of your argument is as follows -- If the terminology of regeneration is not in the Old Testament, then regeneration did not exist in the Old Testament.

Involved in your argument, you listed a series of terminology that you appear to view as the terminology of regeneration, as follows:

1.  Born again

2. Regenerated

3. Born of the Spirit

4. New birth

5.  Converted

I then focused my attention upon the fifth listing from your list of terminology, the word "converted;" and revealed that such terminology does indeed exist in the Old Testament, as follows:

So then, Brother Wretched,

1.  Does the Old Testament teach the converting of the soul through the Law of the Lord, as per Psalm 19:7?

2.  Does the Old Testament teach the converting of sinners unto the Lord, as per Psalm 51:13?

3.  Even so, does the Old Testament teach the doctrine of conversion?

4.  Do you believe that the terminology and doctrine of conversion is Biblically equivalent to the doctrine of regeneration?

If you do believe this, then in accord with Psalm 19:7 & Psalm 51:13 you should acknowledge that conversion/regeneration is INDEED in the Old Testament.


Finally, in my above posting, I presented another terminology listing that the New Testament employs for regeneration (which you did not list in your own listing), as follows:

The terminology that I added was that of "quickening," and the Biblical support for my claim was Ephesians 2:1-10.  So then, does Ephesians 2:1-10 use the terminology of "quickening" for regeneration?  If it does, then we can follow the foundational logic of your argument again and ask -- Does the Old Testament use the terminology of "quickening"?  If it does, then it could be further argued that quickening/regeneration is INDEED in the Old Testament.

I think you are still stretching bro Scott. I understand your opinion on it and think it is the predominant view of most fundamental Bible colleges but I still think it is wrong.

Been a busy day and week, I will answer your questions tomorrow, thanks

I

 

 

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Pastor Scott,

Just to be clear, I have agreed in the past that Scripture does indicate the Spirit’s work in the OT, not only in the inspiration of the writing through the human authors God chose but also the fact that the Spirit did on occasion temporarily indwell both believers and those God wanted to make example of (such as Saul). However, I see nothing that indicates true belief equals the new birth (regeneration) generally speaking in the OT including all the way through the Gospels and up to Pentecost in Acts.

 

The passages you site in Proverbs and Psalms are not compelling to me. IMO, they are unclear and do not match the clear explanations of the new birth as given in the NT. I do not discount Psalms or Proverbs but believe that both these books transcend the Testaments and contain doctrine that is applicable to each Testament but not necessarily to both. Both Law and Grace have equal representation without command to either. God’s fundamental principles that apply to all humanity are contained within both (whether believer or not). I have no wonder as to why they are included in most printings of the NT? I cannot be alone in thinking this way and I think you are more than smart enough to understand why I believe it.

 

I still believe the term backsliding cannot apply to anyone born again.  The term is synonymous with repentance away from God in the heart and does not apply to mere carnal sins. The reason it was an issue in those days was due to the fact that regeneration of the Spirit, His sealing, security and indwelling did not yet exist.

I see nothing clear or nearly conclusive that shows me otherwise in the OT.

 

I think the OT proves throughout that God showed Himself to people in those days through signs, wonders and miracles of all sorts. Including and up through the completion of His written Word and the pouring out of His Spirit over the earth after His Ascension. After these however, all signs, wonders and miracles along with the gifts ceased and do not exist during our times. I think Bible study, reason and common sense prove to us that God does not show Himself physically to us during this age.

 

Think of it this way brother Scott and if you still do not understand or agree, I will let it go.

 

Imagine yourself with all you know through the Spirit and the Word because you are born again and indwelt and have the Spirit which guides you in all truth; imagine yourself as one of the apostles walking with Jesus as Peter did for nearly 3 years, witnessing all the signs, wonders and miracles of our Lord first hand. Knowing (not just from sight but because you are born again and Spirit indwelt) that Jesus is God Almighty….could you possible deny Him as Peter did? Think hard on that please.

 

In addition, please consider the end of each Gospel. Consider how these apostles who walked with our Lord and witnessed all they witnessed first hand, who then hid themselves when Christ was buried. The Bible makes it pretty clear that every single one of them thought in their hearts it was over. Every single apostle believed He was dead and the hopes of the kingdom were shattered. They were all in shock, perplexed and lost their faith almost immediately. Not one of them even believed the Marys when they came and told them the tomb was empty.

 

These men were not born again yet my friend. I know it in my heart.

 

I think you display brilliance in your analysis many times from what I have read but I am still compelled to challenge you on this.

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Psalms 51 :1 To the chief Musician, A Psalm of David, when Nathan the prophet came unto him, after he had gone in to Bathsheba. Have mercy upon me, O God, according to thy lovingkindness: according unto the multitude of thy tender mercies blot out my transgressions.

Psalms 51 :2 Wash me throughly from mine iniquity, and cleanse me from my sin.

Psalms 51 :3 For I acknowledge my transgressions: and my sin is ever before me.

Psalms 51 :4 Against thee, thee only, have I sinned, and done this evil in thy sight: that thou mightest be justified when thou speakest, and be clear when thou judgest.

Psalms 51 :5 Behold, I was shapen in iniquity; and in sin did my mother conceive me.

Psalms 51 :6 Behold, thou desirest truth in the inward parts: and in the hidden part thou shalt make me to know wisdom.

Psalms 51 :7 Purge me with hyssop, and I shall be clean: wash me, and I shall be whiter than snow.

Psalms 51 :8 Make me to hear joy and gladness; that the bones which thou hast broken may rejoice.

Psalms 51 :9 Hide thy face from my sins, and blot out all mine iniquities.

Psalms 51 :10 Create in me a clean heart, O God; and renew a right spirit within me.

Psalms 51 :11 Cast me not away from thy presence; and take not  thy holy spirit from me.

Psalms 51 :12 Restore unto me the joy of thy salvation; and uphold me with thy free spirit.

Psalms 51 :13 Then will I teach transgressors thy ways; and sinners shall be converted unto thee.

Psalms 51 :14 Deliver me from bloodguiltiness, O God, thou God of my salvation: and my tongue shall sing aloud of thy righteousness.

Psalms 51 :15 O Lord, open thou my lips; and my mouth shall shew forth thy praise.

Psalms 51 :16 For thou desirest not sacrifice; else would I give it: thou delightest not in burnt offering.

Psalms 51 :17 The sacrifices of God are a broken spirit: a broken and a contrite heart, O God, thou wilt not despise.

Psalms 51 :18 Do good in thy good pleasure unto Zion: build thou the walls of Jerusalem.

Psalms 51 :19 Then shalt thou be pleased with the sacrifices of righteousness, with burnt offering and whole burnt offering: then shall they offer bullocks upon thine altar.

 

 

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Brother "Wretched,"

You two above posting have put me into a small difficulty.  I have various responses that I desire to make unto various of your comments; however, I am a little uncertain as the correct order in which to present them.  Allow me to begin with a response to the concluding comment of your second posting, since it is a bit more personal, and less doctrinal in nature.

 

I think you display brilliance in your analysis many times from what I have read but I am still compelled to challenge you on this.

1.  I wish to express appreciation for your commendation of my postings over-all.  I simply pray that they will ever bring glory unto my Lord and that they will be good to the use of edifying.

2.  I believe that it can be recognized by most that I am not afraid to be challenged in my position.  However, I believe that it can also be recognized that I am not adverse to defending my position forcefully and thoroughly against those challenges.
 

 
Sorry I could not respond to this post properly but don’t you think you are comparing doctrine with incidentals?  The new birth with spanking?

1.  I do not at all believe that the doctrine of the "tri-unity" of the Lord our God is an incidental.  Nor do I at all believe that the doctrine of godly parenting, of which the doctrine of spanking is an integral part, is an incidental.

2.  Actually, I was not seeking to compare doctrines with one another at all.  Rather, I was seeking to apply the foundational logic of your argument unto various doctrines in order to observe the consistency of that logic.  As I have mentioned above, the foundational logic of your argument was -- If the specific terminology (verbatim) of a doctrine is not found in the New Testament, then that doctrine is not to be applied for the New Testament believer.  Specifically, you demonstrated this foundational logic by claiming that since the specific terminology (verbatim) of "backsliding" was not found in the New Testament, then the doctrine of "backsliding" was not to be applied for the New Testament believer.

Yet in relation to one of my examples, that of the doctrinal instruction to "spanking," you did not follow this same foundational logic with consistency, as follows:

 
The new birth with spanking? Although in this example of spanking the NT does address it but not verbatim.

Indeed, this is exactly the same thing that I would contend for the doctrine of "backsliding" in relation to the New Testament -- The New Testament DOES address "backsliding," but not verbatim.

Furthermore, you presented another argument in order to support your assertion concerning the example of "spanking, as follows:

 
It would be impossible to repeat every subject in the OT again in the NT. The OT is at least ten times the volume.

Indeed, this is exactly the same thing that I was contending when I indicated that the doctrine of "backsliding" in the New Testament, although not presented verbatim, is built upon the foundation of the doctrine of "backsliding" in the Old Testament.
 

 
I think you are still stretching bro Scott. I understand your opinion on it and think it is the predominant view of most fundamental Bible colleges but I still think it is wrong.

Actually, the fundament Baptist Bible college that I attended did NOT teach that Old Testament believers were regenerated.  In fact, this is not the position of most of the fundamental Baptist pastors with whom I have spoken concerning the subject.  Most of those held to a similar position as yourself, that until the Holy Spirit was given for permanent indwelling on the Day of Pentecost, spiritual regeneration did not occur for believers.  Indeed, until the forum I believed that I was in a significant minority by holding to the position that Old Testament believers were regenerated.

(Note: I have more responses to the comments of your second posting above; however, I believe that what I have presented herein is enough for this posting.)

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Brother "Wretched,"

You two above posting have put me into a small difficulty.  I have various responses that I desire to make unto various of your comments; however, I am a little uncertain as the correct order in which to present them.  Allow me to begin with a response to the concluding comment of your second posting, since it is a bit more personal, and less doctrinal in nature.

1.  I wish to express appreciation for your commendation of my postings over-all.  I simply pray that they will ever bring glory unto my Lord and that they will be good to the use of edifying.

2.  I believe that it can be recognized by most that I am not afraid to be challenged in my position.  However, I believe that it can also be recognized that I am not adverse to defending my position forcefully and thoroughly against those challenges.
 

1.  I do not at all believe that the doctrine of the "tri-unity" of the Lord our God is an incidental.  Nor do I at all believe that the doctrine of godly parenting, of which the doctrine of spanking is an integral part, is an incidental.

2.  Actually, I was not seeking to compare doctrines with one another at all.  Rather, I was seeking to apply the foundational logic of your argument unto various doctrines in order to observe the consistency of that logic.  As I have mentioned above, the foundational logic of your argument was -- If the specific terminology (verbatim) of a doctrine is not found in the New Testament, then that doctrine is not to be applied for the New Testament believer.  Specifically, you demonstrated this foundational logic by claiming that since the specific terminology (verbatim) of "backsliding" was not found in the New Testament, then the doctrine of "backsliding" was not to be applied for the New Testament believer.

Yet in relation to one of my examples, that of the doctrinal instruction to "spanking," you did not follow this same foundational logic with consistency, as follows:

Indeed, this is exactly the same thing that I would contend for the doctrine of "backsliding" in relation to the New Testament -- The New Testament DOES address "backsliding," but not verbatim.

Furthermore, you presented another argument in order to support your assertion concerning the example of "spanking, as follows:

Indeed, this is exactly the same thing that I was contending when I indicated that the doctrine of "backsliding" in the New Testament, although not presented verbatim, is built upon the foundation of the doctrine of "backsliding" in the Old Testament.
 

Actually, the fundament Baptist Bible college that I attended did NOT teach that Old Testament believers were regenerated.  In fact, this is not the position of most of the fundamental Baptist pastors with whom I have spoken concerning the subject.  Most of those held to a similar position as yourself, that until the Holy Spirit was given for permanent indwelling on the Day of Pentecost, spiritual regeneration did not occur for believers.  Indeed, until the forum I believed that I was in a significant minority by holding to the position that Old Testament believers were regenerated.

(Note: I have more responses to the comments of your second posting above; however, I believe that what I have presented herein is enough for this posting.)

Good enough Bro. Scott, thanks

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To all,

I do apologize for taking so long in providing my second response in this matter.  First, I was away from home for a number of days, wherein I had not access at all to the forum.  Then, after returning home, I had not time available due to ministry and family responsibilities.

Brother "Wretched,"

On ‎3‎/‎28‎/‎2016 at 4:34 PM, wretched said:

Pastor Scott,

Just to be clear, I have agreed in the past that Scripture does indicate the Spirit’s work in the OT, not only in the inspiration of the writing through the human authors God chose but also the fact that the Spirit did on occasion temporarily indwell both believers and those God wanted to make example of (such as Saul). However, I see nothing that indicates true belief equals the new birth (regeneration) generally speaking in the OT including all the way through the Gospels and up to Pentecost in Acts.

Indeed, I was and am aware of these things concerning your position; and I did and do understand them.  (Note: I would simply challenge you to use the phrase "temporarily fill" for Old Testament believers, instead of the phrase "temporarily indwell," in order to maintain a definite distinction between the indwelling work of the Holy Spirit and the infilling work of the Holy Spirit.)

On ‎3‎/‎28‎/‎2016 at 4:34 PM, wretched said:

The passages you site in Proverbs and Psalms are not compelling to me. IMO, they are unclear and do not match the clear explanations of the new birth as given in the NT. I do not discount Psalms or Proverbs but believe that both these books transcend the Testaments and contain doctrine that is applicable to each Testament but not necessarily to both. Both Law and Grace have equal representation without command to either. God’s fundamental principles that apply to all humanity are contained within both (whether believer or not). I have no wonder as to why they are included in most printings of the NT? I cannot be alone in thinking this way and I think you are more than smart enough to understand why I believe it.

I would agree with you that much of the doctrinal teaching in Psalms and Proverbs transcends and is applicable unto both Testaments.  However, I would be compelled to contend that although some of the doctrine in these two Old Testament books may not have direct application to the New Testament, all of the doctrine in these two Old Testament books DO have direct application to the Old Testament, since they were both written during the time of the Old Testament.

On ‎3‎/‎28‎/‎2016 at 4:34 PM, wretched said:

The passages you site in Proverbs and Psalms are not compelling to me. IMO, they are unclear and do not match the clear explanations of the new birth as given in the NT.

I am uncertain how Psalms 19:7 is unclear -- "The law of the LORD is perfect, converting the soul: the testimony of the LORD is sure, making wise the simple."  The verse present four basic points, as follows:

1.  "The law of the LORD is perfect." -- Do you find this to be unclear in teaching that the truth of God's Holy Word is perfect truth?
2.  "The testimony of the LORD is sure." -- Do you find this to be unclear in teaching that the truth of God's Holy Word is perfectly reliable truth?
3.  "The testimony of the LORD" is able to be "making wise the simple." -- Do you find this to be unclear in teaching that the truth of God's Holy Word is able to make spiritually simple individuals into spiritually wise individuals?
4.  "The law of the LORD" is able to be "converting the soul." -- If you do not find the above three points to be unclear, then how do you find this to be unclear in teaching that the truth of God's Holy Word is able to convert a sinner's soul from ungodliness and unrighteousness unto godliness and righteousness?

On ‎3‎/‎28‎/‎2016 at 4:34 PM, wretched said:

The passages you site in Proverbs and Psalms are not compelling to me. IMO, they are unclear and do not match the clear explanations of the new birth as given in the NT.

You yourself were the one in a previous posting who indicated that the "conversion" terminology of the New Testament was equivalent to the doctrine of regeneration in the New Testament.  (Note: I myself actually do NOT hold to the position that "conversion" terminology is inherently a reference to the doctrine of regeneration in either Testament.)  Furthermore, you yourself were the one in a previous posting who indicated that such "regeneration" terminology could not be found in the Old Testament, which is the very reason that you presented for denying that regeneration occurred for Old Testament believers.

I simply responded to your presentation by pointing out that "conversion" terminology most certainly DID exist in the Old Testament, as per Psalm 19:7 & Psalm 51:13.  If indeed "conversion" terminology is inherently equivalent to the doctrine of regeneration, as you asserted in your previous posting, then you should be compelled to acknowledge that the doctrine of regeneration, as per the "conversion" terminology of Psalm 19:7 & Psalm 51:13, is an Old Testament doctrine.  On the other hand, you COULD correct yourself by acknowledging that "conversion" terminology actually is NOT inherently equivalent to the doctrine of regeneration in either Testament (which is actually the position that I myself hold).  However, if you did correct yourself in this manner, then you could no longer employ the case of Jesus' statement concerning Peter's conversion as an argument that Peter (and the other apostles) were not regenerated before Pentecost.

On ‎3‎/‎28‎/‎2016 at 4:34 PM, wretched said:

I still believe the term backsliding cannot apply to anyone born again.  The term is synonymous with repentance away from God in the heart and does not apply to mere carnal sins. The reason it was an issue in those days was due to the fact that regeneration of the Spirit, His sealing, security and indwelling did not yet exist. I see nothing clear or nearly conclusive that shows me otherwise in the OT.

Indeed, I am aware that you still do not believe that the doctrine of backsliding has application to the New Testament believer.  Furthermore, I am aware that your position concerning the doctrine of backsliding is firmly founded upon your definition for "backsliding."  Finally, I am aware also that your position concerning the denial of backsliding for the New Testament believer is firmly founded upon your understanding for the doctrine of regeneration.

I myself believe that you have developed an incorrect definition for the doctrine of backsliding.  Indeed, I believe that you have developed this incorrect definition by not considering ALL that the Old Testament teaches concerning the subject.  I myself would contend that spiritually going away backward from the Lord in a pursuit after the lusts of the flesh (carnality) certainly IS a part of "backsliding."  Furthermore, I myself believe that you develop an incorrect understanding for the doctrine of regeneration, even in relation to the New Testament (regardless of our differing views concerning the application of regeneration unto Old Testament believers).  As such, I believe that your view of regeneration for the New Testament believer has moved you unto a type of "perseverance of the saints" position concerning daily sanctification.

On ‎3‎/‎28‎/‎2016 at 4:34 PM, wretched said:

Think of it this way brother Scott and if you still do not understand or agree, I will let it go.

 

Imagine yourself with all you know through the Spirit and the Word because you are born again and indwelt and have the Spirit which guides you in all truth; imagine yourself as one of the apostles walking with Jesus as Peter did for nearly 3 years, witnessing all the signs, wonders and miracles of our Lord first hand. Knowing (not just from sight but because you are born again and Spirit indwelt) that Jesus is God Almighty….could you possible deny Him as Peter did? Think hard on that please.

 

In addition, please consider the end of each Gospel. Consider how these apostles who walked with our Lord and witnessed all they witnessed first hand, who then hid themselves when Christ was buried. The Bible makes it pretty clear that every single one of them thought in their hearts it was over. Every single apostle believed He was dead and the hopes of the kingdom were shattered. They were all in shock, perplexed and lost their faith almost immediately. Not one of them even believed the Marys when they came and told them the tomb was empty.

 

These men were not born again yet my friend. I know it in my heart.

As far as your above question -- YES, I believe that if I were to give myself to walk after my own selfish, sinful flesh, I certainly COULD as a regenerated believer deny my Lord just as Peter did.  Indeed, in my daily walk now, when I am walking after my flesh, I do NOT deny myself, and take up my cross, and follow my Lord.  Rather, when I am walking after my flesh, I DO deny my Lord (in my heart), and take up my own desires, and follow my own way.  When I am walking after my flesh, I do NOT savor and set my affection on the things that be of the Lord, of His kingdom, of His righteousness.  Rather, when I am walking after my flesh, I savor and set my affection on the things that be of myself and of this world.  When I am walking after my flesh, I do NOT yield myself unto God and my members as instruments of righteousness unto God.  Rather, when I am walking after my flesh, I yield myself unto sin and my members as instruments of unrighteousness unto sin.  When I am walking after my flesh, I do NOT walk as a child of light, in righteousness, godliness, and true holiness.  Rather, when I am walking after my flesh, I walk as the children of darkness walk, in the vanity of my mind, fulfilling the desires of my flesh and my mind.  When I am walking after my flesh, I do NOT fulfill the righteousness of my Lord's law; and I am NOT transformed by the renewing of my mind unto the righteous image of my Lord.  Rather, when I am walking after my flesh, I am a rebel against my Lord and against the authority of His righteous law for my life.  Indeed, my spirit may be willing; but my flesh is spiritually weak and wicked.  Indeed, these two are contrary the one to the other, so that I cannot do the things that I would.

As far as Peter is concerned, he did NOT have to fall in that denial.  The Lord Jesus Christ warned him exactly as to the way in which he might prevent his downfall.  Yet the Lord's counsel to him was not that he needed to be regenerated.  Rather, the Lord's counsel was that he needed to pray so that he not be overcome by the temptation, that he needed to quit depending upon himself, but that he needed to depend rather upon the Lord God his heavenly Father.  On the other hand, Peter did NOT heed the Lord's counsel; therefore, he was overcome by the temptation, just as the other disciples were overcome.

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50 minutes ago, Pastor Scott Markle said:

To all,

I do apologize for taking so long in providing my second response in this matter.  First, I was away from home for a number of days, wherein I had not access at all to the forum.  Then, after returning home, I had not time available due to ministry and family responsibilities.

Brother "Wretched,"

Indeed, I was and am aware of these things concerning your position; and I did and do understand them.  (Note: I would simply challenge you to use the phrase "temporarily fill" for Old Testament believers, instead of the phrase "temporarily indwell," in order to maintain a definite distinction between the indwelling work of the Holy Spirit and the infilling work of the Holy Spirit.)

I would agree with you that much of the doctrinal teaching in Psalms and Proverbs transcends and is applicable unto both Testaments.  However, I would be compelled to contend that although some of the doctrine in these two Old Testament books may not have direct application to the New Testament, all of the doctrine in these two Old Testament books DO have direct application to the Old Testament, since they were both written during the time of the Old Testament.

I am uncertain how Psalms 19:7 is unclear -- "The law of the LORD is perfect, converting the soul: the testimony of the LORD is sure, making wise the simple."  The verse present four basic points, as follows:

1.  "The law of the LORD is perfect." -- Do you find this to be unclear in teaching that the truth of God's Holy Word is perfect truth?
2.  "The testimony of the LORD is sure." -- Do you find this to be unclear in teaching that the truth of God's Holy Word is perfectly reliable truth?
3.  "The testimony of the LORD" is able to be "making wise the simple." -- Do you find this to be unclear in teaching that the truth of God's Holy Word is able to make spiritually simple individuals into spiritually wise individuals?
4.  "The law of the LORD" is able to be "converting the soul." -- If you do not find the above three points to be unclear, then how do you find this to be unclear in teaching that the truth of God's Holy Word is able to convert a sinner's soul from ungodliness and unrighteousness unto godliness and righteousness?

You yourself were the one in a previous posting who indicated that the "conversion" terminology of the New Testament was equivalent to the doctrine of regeneration in the New Testament.  (Note: I myself actually do NOT hold to the position that "conversion" terminology is inherently a reference to the doctrine of regeneration in either Testament.)  Furthermore, you yourself were the one in a previous posting who indicated that such "regeneration" terminology could not be found in the Old Testament, which is the very reason that you presented for denying that regeneration occurred for Old Testament believers.

I simply responded to your presentation by pointing out that "conversion" terminology most certainly DID exist in the Old Testament, as per Psalm 19:7 & Psalm 51:13.  If indeed "conversion" terminology is inherently equivalent to the doctrine of regeneration, as you asserted in your previous posting, then you should be compelled to acknowledge that the doctrine of regeneration, as per the "conversion" terminology of Psalm 19:7 & Psalm 51:13, is an Old Testament doctrine.  On the other hand, you COULD correct yourself by acknowledging that "conversion" terminology actually is NOT inherently equivalent to the doctrine of regeneration in either Testament (which is actually the position that I myself hold).  However, if you did correct yourself in this manner, then you could no longer employ the case of Jesus' statement concerning Peter's conversion as an argument that Peter (and the other apostles) were not regenerated before Pentecost.

Indeed, I am aware that you still do not believe that the doctrine of backsliding has application to the New Testament believer.  Furthermore, I am aware that your position concerning the doctrine of backsliding is firmly founded upon your definition for "backsliding."  Finally, I am aware also that your position concerning the denial of backsliding for the New Testament believer is firmly founded upon your understanding for the doctrine of regeneration.

I myself believe that you have developed an incorrect definition for the doctrine of backsliding.  Indeed, I believe that you have developed this incorrect definition by not considering ALL that the Old Testament teaches concerning the subject.  I myself would contend that spiritually going away backward from the Lord in a pursuit after the lusts of the flesh (carnality) certainly IS a part of "backsliding."  Furthermore, I myself believe that you develop an incorrect understanding for the doctrine of regeneration, even in relation to the New Testament (regardless of our differing views concerning the application of regeneration unto Old Testament believers).  As such, I believe that your view of regeneration for the New Testament believer has moved you unto a type of "perseverance of the saints" position concerning daily sanctification.

As far as your above question -- YES, I believe that if I were to give myself to walk after my own selfish, sinful flesh, I certainly COULD as a regenerated believer deny my Lord just as Peter did.  Indeed, in my daily walk now, when I am walking after my flesh, I do NOT deny myself, and take up my cross, and follow my Lord.  Rather, when I am walking after my flesh, I DO deny my Lord (in my heart), and take up my own desires, and follow my own way.  When I am walking after my flesh, I do NOT savor and set my affection on the things that be of the Lord, of His kingdom, of His righteousness.  Rather, when I am walking after my flesh, I savor and set my affection on the things that be of myself and of this world.  When I am walking after my flesh, I do NOT yield myself unto God and my members as instruments of righteousness unto God.  Rather, when I am walking after my flesh, I yield myself unto sin and my members as instruments of unrighteousness unto sin.  When I am walking after my flesh, I do NOT walk as a child of light, in righteousness, godliness, and true holiness.  Rather, when I am walking after my flesh, I walk as the children of darkness walk, in the vanity of my mind, fulfilling the desires of my flesh and my mind.  When I am walking after my flesh, I do NOT fulfill the righteousness of my Lord's law; and I am NOT transformed by the renewing of my mind unto the righteous image of my Lord.  Rather, when I am walking after my flesh, I am a rebel against my Lord and against the authority of His righteous law for my life.  Indeed, my spirit may be willing; but my flesh is spiritually weak and wicked.  Indeed, these two are contrary the one to the other, so that I cannot do the things that I would.

As far as Peter is concerned, he did NOT have to fall in that denial.  The Lord Jesus Christ warned him exactly as to the way in which he might prevent his downfall.  Yet the Lord's counsel to him was not that he needed to be regenerated.  Rather, the Lord's counsel was that he needed to pray so that he not be overcome by the temptation, that he needed to quit depending upon himself, but that he needed to depend rather upon the Lord God his heavenly Father.  On the other hand, Peter did NOT heed the Lord's counsel; therefore, he was overcome by the temptation, just as the other disciples were overcome.

I will address the rest of this at a later date but will say this my friend.

If what I bolded above is true of you then you have a problem:  2Ti 2:12, If we suffer, we shall also reign with him: if we deny him, he also will deny us: There is a myriad of other passages that match this, some our Lord said of the future while on earth, others the apostles reiterated. I believe it is clearly impossible for a born again child of God to deny the Lord regardless of the circumstance.

Just a quick edit, the passage we are disputing was that of Peter's verbal repeated denial of the Lord Jesus and not carnal sins or laziness.

I assume nothing of strangers so if you meant something other than this, you should clarify.

Some of your other responses are unrecognizable to me because they don't match what I said in any way but I will get to them.

thanks for you time

Edited by wretched
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1 hour ago, Pastor Scott Markle said:

As far as your above question -- YES, I believe that if I were to give myself to walk after my own selfish, sinful flesh, I certainly COULD as a regenerated believer deny my Lord just as Peter did.  Indeed, in my daily walk now, when I am walking after my flesh, I do NOT deny myself, and take up my cross, and follow my Lord.  Rather, when I am walking after my flesh, I DO deny my Lord (in my heart), and take up my own desires, and follow my own way.  When I am walking after my flesh, I do NOT savor and set my affection on the things that be of the Lord, of His kingdom, of His righteousness.  Rather, when I am walking after my flesh, I savor and set my affection on the things that be of myself and of this world.  When I am walking after my flesh, I do NOT yield myself unto God and my members as instruments of righteousness unto God.  Rather, when I am walking after my flesh, I yield myself unto sin and my members as instruments of unrighteousness unto sin.  When I am walking after my flesh, I do NOT walk as a child of light, in righteousness, godliness, and true holiness.  Rather, when I am walking after my flesh, I walk as the children of darkness walk, in the vanity of my mind, fulfilling the desires of my flesh and my mind.  When I am walking after my flesh, I do NOT fulfill the righteousness of my Lord's law; and I am NOT transformed by the renewing of my mind unto the righteous image of my Lord.  Rather, when I am walking after my flesh, I am a rebel against my Lord and against the authority of His righteous law for my life.  Indeed, my spirit may be willing; but my flesh is spiritually weak and wicked.  Indeed, these two are contrary the one to the other, so that I cannot do the things that I would.

20 minutes ago, wretched said:

I will address the rest of this at a later date but will say this my friend.

If what I bolded above is true of you then you have a problem:  2Ti 2:12, If we suffer, we shall also reign with him: if we deny him, he also will deny us: There is a myriad of other passages that match this, some our Lord said of the future while on earth, others the apostles reiterated. I believe it is clearly impossible for a born again child of God to deny the Lord regardless of the circumstance.

I assume nothing of strangers so if you meant something other than this, you should clarify.

Brother "Wretched,"

I said exactly what I meant to say. 

Concerning 2 Timothy 2:12, 2 Timothy 2:11-13 is the entire sentence; therefore verse 12 should not be removed from the whole -- "It is a faithful saying: For if we be dead with him, we shall also live with him: If we suffer, we shall also reign with him: if we deny him, he also will deny us: if we believe not, yet he abideth faithful: he cannot deny himself."

1.  Who is the "we" throughout this entire sentence?

2.  In what way does the Lord "deny us," if we "deny him"?

3.  What does it mean that the Lord "abideth faithful" and "cannot deny himself," even if we "believe not"?

1 hour ago, Pastor Scott Markle said:

As far as Peter is concerned, he did NOT have to fall in that denial.  The Lord Jesus Christ warned him exactly as to the way in which he might prevent his downfall.  Yet the Lord's counsel to him was not that he needed to be regenerated.  Rather, the Lord's counsel was that he needed to pray so that he not be overcome by the temptation, that he needed to quit depending upon himself, but that he needed to depend rather upon the Lord God his heavenly Father.  On the other hand, Peter did NOT heed the Lord's counsel; therefore, he was overcome by the temptation, just as the other disciples were overcome.

29 minutes ago, wretched said:

Just a quick edit, the passage we are disputing was that of Peter's verbal repeated denial of the Lord Jesus and not carnal sins or laziness.

Indeed, that is correct.  Yet before the temptation to deny the Lord actually happened, the Lord had counseled and warned Peter while they were in the garden of Gethsemane, "Watch and pray, that ye enter not into temptation: the spirit indeed is willing, but the flesh is weak." (See Matthew 26:41, which is only six verses after Matthew 26:33-35)

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Earlier in this thread (here), I presented An Introduction to the Doctrine of Backsliding in the Old Testament (Prior to its reference in the Old Testament prophets).

In this posting I wish to add a second part, as follows:
 

A Continuation to the Doctrine of Backsliding in the Old Testament
(As per its reference in the Old Testament prophets)

 

Isaiah 1:2-4 “Hear, O heavens, and give ear, O earth: for the LORD hath spoken, I have nourished and brought up children, and they have rebelled against me.  The ox knoweth his owner, and the ass his master’s crib: but Israel doth not know, my people doth not consider.  Ah sinful nation, a people laden with iniquity, a seed of evildoers, children that are corrupters: they have forsaken the LORD, they have provoked the Holy One of Israel unto anger, they are gone away backward.”

Herein we learn that “backsliding” is to rebel against the Lord, and thereby to forsake the Lord.  Furthermore, we learn that “backsliding” is to pursue the way of sinful iniquity, and thereby to become doers of corruption and evil.  Finally, we learn again that “backsliding” provokes the all-holy Lord God unto anger.

Isaiah 50:5 – “The Lord GOD hath opened mine ear, and I was not rebellious, neither turned away back.”

Herein again we learn that “backsliding” is to rebel against the Lord.

Jeremiah 2:19-20 – “Thine own wickedness shall correct thee, and thy backslidings shall reprove thee: know therefore and see that it is an evil thing and bitter, that thou hast forsaken the LORD thy God, and that my fear is not in thee, saith the Lord GOD of hosts.  For of old time I have broken thy yoke, and burst thy bands; and thou saidst, I will not transgress; when upon every high hill and under every green tree thou wanderest, playing the harlot.”

Herein we learn that “backsliding” is the wickedness of not walking in the fear of the Lord, but of forsaking the Lord and of following after gods other than the Lord.

Jeremiah 2:26-27 – “As the thief is ashamed when he is found, so is the house of Israel ashamed; they, their kings, their princes, and their priests, and their prophets, saying to a stock, Thou art my father; and to a stone, Thou hast brought me forth: for they have turned their back unto me, and not their face: but in the time of their trouble they will say, Arise, and save us.”

Herein we learn that “backsliding” involves turning one’s back against the Lord and pursuing after other gods than the Lord.

Jeremiah 3:6-15 – “The LORD said also unto me in the days of Josiah the king, Hast thou seen that which backsliding Israel hath done?  She is gone up upon every high mountain and under every green tree, and there hath played the harlot.  And I said after she had done all these things, Turn thou unto me.  But she returned not. And her treacherous sister Judah saw it.  And I saw, when for all the causes whereby backsliding Israel committed adultery I had put her away, and given her a bill of divorce; yet her treacherous sister Judah feared not, but went and played the harlot also.  And it came to pass through the lightness of her whoredom, that she defiled the land, and committed adultery with stones and with stocks.  And yet for all this her treacherous sister Judah hath not turned unto me with her whole heart, but feignedly, saith the LORD.  And the LORD said unto me, The backsliding Israel hath justified herself more than treacherous Judah.  Go and proclaim these words toward the north, and say, Return, thou backsliding Israel, saith the LORD; and I will not cause mine anger to fall upon you: for I am merciful, saith the LORD, and I will not keep anger for ever.  Only acknowledge thine iniquity, that thou hast transgressed against the LORD thy God, and hast scattered thy ways to the strangers under every green tree, and ye have not obeyed my voice, saith the LORD.  Turn, O backsliding children, saith the LORD; for I am married unto you: and I will take you one of a city, and two of a family, and I will bring you to Zion: and I will give you pastors according to mine heart, which shall feed you with knowledge and understanding.”

Herein we learn that “backsliding” involves pursuing after other gods than the Lord, which is to be viewed as an adulterous cheating against the Lord.  Furthermore, we learn that the Lord will separate those who “backslide” from His fellowship.  Yet we also learn that those who “backslide” do not cease to be the Lord’s people, but are called by the Lord to return unto Him.  Finally, we learn that those “backsliders” who repent of their “backslidings” and turn back unto the Lord will be mercifully forgiven of their sins by the Lord and will be mercifully restored unto the fellowship of the Lord.

Jeremiah 3:21-22 – “A voice was heard upon the high places, weeping and supplications of the children of Israel: for they have perverted their way, and they have forgotten the LORD their God.  Return, ye backsliding children, and I will heal your backslidings.  Behold, we come unto thee; for thou art the LORD our God.”

Herein we learn the “backsliding” is to pervert one’s way and to forget the Lord.  Yet we also learn that those who “backslide” are called by the Lord to return unto Him.  Finally, we learn that those “backsliders” who do repent and return unto the Lord will be spiritually healed of their “backslidings” by the Lord.

Jeremiah 5:6 – “Wherefore a lion out of the forest shall slay them, and a wolf of the evenings shall spoil them, a leopard shall watch over their cities: every one that goeth out thence shall be torn in pieces: because their transgressions are many, and their backslidings are increased.”

Herein we learn that the Lord our God will judge the “backslider” for his “backslidings.”

Jeremiah 7:22-28 – “For I spake not unto your fathers, nor commanded them in the day that I brought them out of the land of Egypt, concerning burnt offerings or sacrifices: but this thing commanded I them, saying, Obey my voice, and I will be your God, and ye shall be my people: and walk ye in all the ways that I have commanded you, that it may be well unto you.  But they hearkened not, nor inclined their ear, but walked in the counsels and in the imagination of their evil heart, and went backward, and not forward.  Since the day that your fathers came forth out of the land of Egypt unto this day I have even sent unto you all my servants the prophets, daily rising up early and sending them: yet they hearkened not unto me, nor inclined their ear, but hardened their neck: they did worse than their fathers.  Therefore thou shalt speak all these words unto them; but they will not hearken to thee: thou shalt also call unto them; but they will not answer thee.  But thou shalt say unto them, This is a nation that obeyeth not the voice of the LORD their God, nor receiveth correction: truth is perished, and is cut off from their mouth.”

Herein we learn of various characteristics in “backsliding.”  First, “backsliding” is to disobey the authoritative voice and commandments of the Lord.  Second, “backsliding” is to walk after the counsels and desires of one’s own evil heart.  Finally, “backsliding” is to harden one’s self stubbornly against the correction of the Lord.

Jeremiah 8:5-6 – “Why then is this people of Jerusalem slidden back by a perpetual backsliding?  They hold fast deceit, they refuse to return.  I hearkened and heard, but they spake not aright: no man repented him of his wickedness, saying,  What have I done?  Every one turned to his course, as the horse rusheth into the battle.”

Herein we learn that “backsliding” involves a stubborn refusal to repent of wickedness and to return unto the Lord.

Jeremiah 14:7-12 – “O LORD, though our iniquities testify against us, do thou it for thy name’s sake: for our backslidings are many; we have sinned against thee.  O the hope of Israel, the saviour thereof in time of trouble, why shouldest thou be as a stranger in the land, and as a wayfaring man that turneth aside to tarry for a night?  Why shouldest thou be as a man astonied, as a mighty man that cannot save?  Yet thou, O LORD, art in the midst of us, and we are called by thy name; leave us not.  Thus saith the LORD unto this people, Thus have they loved to wander, they have not refrained their feet, therefore the LORD doth not accept them; he will now remember their iniquity, and visit their sins.  Then said the LORD unto me, Pray not for this people for their good.  When they fast, I will not hear their cry; and when they offer burnt offering and an oblation, I will not accept them: but I will consume them by the sword, and by the famine, and by the pestilence.”

Herein we learn that “backsliding” is to wander away from the Lord in the ways of sinfulness.  Furthermore, we learn that the Lord our God will certainly judge “backsliders” and will not hear their prayer for help and deliverance.

Jeremiah 15:6 – “Thou hast forsaken me, saith the LORD, thou art gone backward: therefore will I stretch out my hand against thee, and destroy thee; I am weary with repenting.”

Herein again we learn that “backsliding” is to forsake the Lord and that the Lord will certainly judge “backsliders.”

Hosea 4:16-17 – “For Israel slideth back as a backsliding heifer: now the LORD will feed them as a lamb in a large place.  Ephraim is joined to idols: let him alone.”

Herein we learn that “backsliding” involves pursuing after other gods than the Lord.

Hosea 11:7 – “And my people are bent to backsliding from me: though they called them to the most High, none at all would exalt him.”

Herein we learn that “backsliding” is to not exalt the Lord’s authority in one’s life.

Hosea 14:1-4 – “O Israel, return unto the LORD thy God; for thou hast fallen by thine iniquity.  Take with you words, and turn to the LORD: say unto him, Take away all iniquity, and receive us graciously: so will we render the calves of our lips.  Asshur shall not save us; we will not ride upon horses: neither will we say any more to the work of our hands, Ye are our gods: for in thee the fatherless findeth mercy.  I will heal their backsliding, I will love them freely: for mine anger is turned away from him.”

Herein we again learn that the Lord our God will spiritually heal the “backslidings” of those “backsliders” who repent and return unto the Lord.

Zephaniah 1:4-6 – “I will also stretch out mine hand upon Judah, and upon all the inhabitants of Jerusalem; and I will cut off the remnant of Baal from this place, and the name of the Chemarims with the priests; and them that worship the host of heaven upon the housetops; and them that worship and that swear by the LORD, and that swear by Malcham; and them that are turned back from the LORD; and those that have not sought the LORD, nor enquired for him.”

Herein we learn that “backsliding” involves not seeking after the Lord’s fellowship or enquiring after the Lord’s will.  Furthermore, we learn that “backsliding” involves pursuing after other gods than the Lord.  Finally, we learn that the Lord our God will certainly judge “backsliders” for their “backslidings.”

 

Now, although this Bible study reveals that “backsliding” in the Old Testament involved a pursuit after other gods than the Lord is some cases, it also reveals that “backsliding” did not involve such a pursuit in every case.  On the other hand, this Bible study reveals that “backsliding” in the Old Testament involved in every case a departure from obedience unto the Lord’s authority in order to pursue one’s own way.  This then reveals the essential definition of spiritual “backsliding.”

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On 3/26/2016 at 3:56 PM, wretched said:

It is pretty clear Peter was unconverted prior to Pentecost because Christ had not yet ascended and He had not yet sent the Spirit.

If anyone could have been born again prior to this then CHRIST DIED IN VAIN but the false traditions of men keep reasonable people from seeing these things for some reason.

Agreed,brother Wretched.

On 3/26/2016 at 3:56 PM, wretched said:

Since you bring up Peter, lets see what Jesus said to him: I disagree with your commentary in regard to Peter my friend from a sequential Bible perspective.

Luk 22:32, But I have prayed for thee, that thy faith fail not: and when thou art converted, strengthen thy brethren. Peter's conversion did not occur until after Christ's ascension, ie. Pentecost when the Spirit was poured out upon the earth.

Although Peter and all the apostles had eye-witnessed Christ's Power for nearly 3 years, they were still unregenerate. Their faith was by sight only and not from the new birth yet. Hence as soon as Christ was out of sight, so was Peter's faith.

Agreed, brother Wretched. 

Psalm 19:7 and Psalm 51:13 also speak of conversion, however I would contend it is not the same conversion Peter experienced after Jesus' ascension, and after the Holy Spirit indewlt him... else why would he have had to be converted (if he already WAS)? So again I also contend that the Holy Spirit did not indwell believers in the same fashion in the OT as they do in the NT (after Christ's ascension). That is a topic already discussed. However, it bears mentioning again since it is another example of the difference in the relation of the Holy Spirit in the age of grace. Paul tells us we are "sealed unto the day of redemption" (Ephesians 4:30) and while I am there in that verse it also tells me something else we can do... "grieve" the Holy Spirit. This may be what in today's terms many would call "backsliding", but it IS a different terminology and for a different reason. I agree with brother Wretched's conclusion as to why this is different.  We certainly CAN sin still even after accepting/believing upon Jesus for salvation. Romans 7:15 "For that which I do I allow not: for what I would, that do I not; but what I hate, that do I." and we see that the Holy Spirit is not the ONLY presence dwelling within us: Romans 7:"Now if I do that I would not, it is no more I that do it, but sin that dwelleth in me." But it is clear it is no license TO sin. When we sin we grieve the Holy Spirit, it is not something to take lightly.

When Israel "backslid" to go whoring after other false "gods" He called them backslidden. Jer. 2:19 Thine own wickedness shall correct thee, and thy backslidings shall reprove thee: know therefore and see that it is an evil thing and bitter, that thou hast forsaken the Lord thy God, and that my fear is not in thee, saith the Lord God of hosts. 20 For of old time I have broken thy yoke, and burst thy bands; and thou saidst, I will not transgress; when upon every high hill and under every green tree thou wanderest, playing the harlot. Jer. 3:6 "The Lord said also unto me in the days of Josiah the king, Hast thou seen that which backsliding Israel hath done? she is gone up upon every high mountain and under every green tree, and there hath played the harlot." We know from study that the "high hills" and tree groves were used for idol worship/the worship of false "gods". Jer. 3:14 "Turn, O backsliding children, saith the Lord; for I am married unto you: and I will take you one of a city, and two of a family, and I will bring you to Zion" He uses the terminology of being "married" to Israel, this proves also that the "backsliding" He is referencing is in direct correlation to "adultery" against the one true God by their false idol worship/false "god" worship. God WILL eventually HEAL their "backsliding" as Hosea 14:4 declares, BUT what first must be noted is what He is calling backliding in the first right above (14:3) 3 "Asshur shall not save us; we will not ride upon horses: neither will we say any more to the work of our hands, Ye are our gods: for in thee the fatherless findeth mercy." 4 "I will heal their backsliding, I will love them freely: for mine anger is turned away from him."

2 Cor.1:22 "Who hath also sealed us, and given the earnest of the Spirit in our hearts." We have His Holy Spirit in our hearts, we grieve the Holy Spirit when we walk contrary to what He leads us to do. But again, I agree this is not the same terminology used as was used for Israel, when they "backslid", because it's a different offense, even if it does have similar characteristics,  and even if today's churches refer to ALL offenses against God (once saved) as backsliding, it's different for all the reason brother Wretched brought out,  AND it's different because of Luke 22:32. If Peter had already been converted (by the Holy Spirit's indwelling guidance) he would not have need to BE converted. Peter would not have been able to "grieve the Holy Spirit" before Christ's ascension. I would contend that the proper terminology of what most churches call "backsliding" in the age of grace, SHOULD BE termed "grieving the Holy Spirit". 

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