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beameup

A city whose builder and maker is God

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By faith Abraham, when he was called to go out into a place which he should after receive for an inheritance, obeyed; and he went out, not knowing whither he went. By faith he sojourned in the land of promise, as in a strange country, dwelling in tabernacles with Isaac and Jacob, the heirs with him of the same promise: For he looked for a city which hath foundations, whose builder and maker is God. Hebrews 11:8-10

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Revelation 21:14  And the wall of the city had twelve foundations, and in them the names of the twelve apostles of the Lamb.
21:19-20  And the foundations of the wall of the city were garnished with all manner of precious stones. The first foundation was jasper; the second, sapphire; the third, a chalcedony; the fourth, an emerald; 20  The fifth, sardonyx; the sixth, sardius; the seventh, chrysolite; the eighth, beryl; the ninth, a topaz; the tenth, a chrysoprasus; the eleventh, a jacinth; the twelfth, an amethyst.

 

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Hebrews 12:22-24 -- "But ye are come [present tense] unto mount Sion, and unto the city of the living God, the heavenly Jerusalem, and to an innumerable company of angels, to the general assembly and church of the firstborn, which are written in heaven, and to God the Judge of all, and to the spirits of just men made perfect, and to Jesus the mediator of the new covenant, and to the blood of sprinkling, that speaketh better things than that of Abel."

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3 hours ago, Pastor Scott Markle said:

Hebrews 12:22-24 -- "But ye are come [present tense] unto mount Sion, and unto the city of the living God, the heavenly Jerusalem, and to an innumerable company of angels, to the general assembly and church of the firstborn, which are written in heaven, and to God the Judge of all, and to the spirits of just men made perfect, and to Jesus the mediator of the new covenant, and to the blood of sprinkling, that speaketh better things than that of Abel."

Notice the writer of Hebrews is addressing the Jews as another group outside the church of the firstborn? This verse is speaking to a group of Jews "in the last days" who are ready to meet the church of the firstborn which is already in heaven on mount Sion. This verse has yet to be fulfilled.

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5 hours ago, Pastor Scott Markle said:

Hebrews 12:22-24 -- "But ye are come [present tense] unto mount Sion, and unto the city of the living God, the heavenly Jerusalem, and to an innumerable company of angels, to the general assembly and church of the firstborn, which are written in heaven, and to God the Judge of all, and to the spirits of just men made perfect, and to Jesus the mediator of the new covenant, and to the blood of sprinkling, that speaketh better things than that of Abel."

1 hour ago, Critical Mass said:

Notice the writer of Hebrews is addressing the Jews as another group outside the church of the firstborn? This verse is speaking to a group of Jews "in the last days" who are ready to meet the church of the firstborn which is already in heaven on mount Sion. This verse has yet to be fulfilled.

False. 

First, Hebrews 12:22-24 was inspired by God the Holy Spirit to be communicated in the present tense ("are come").  Your personal explanation attempts to change that present tense communication into something different, such as -- "shall come," or "are about to come," or "are ready to come," which in every case seeks to push that which God the Holy Spirit inspired as present to be actually for the future.  God the Holy Spirit did not inspired this passage to be a prophetic utterance concerning the future, but inspired this passage to be a factual statement concerning the present.  I myself am absolutely certain that God the Holy Spirit got it correct.

Furthermore, there are only two groups in the statement of this passage that can encompass human believers -- (1) "the general assembly and church of the firstborn, which are written in heaven" and (2) "the spirits of just men made perfect."  Concerning the second of these groups, the phase "just men" can certainly be applied unto any who are justified by and before the Lord God through faith.  However, the phrase "made perfect" would only be applicable to justified individuals who are already in heaven and who have already been made perfect therein.  Thus this group of "the spirits of just men made perfect" would refer to justified individuals who are already dead from this life and thereby in heaven, which would be in unity with the use of the word "spirits" as a designation for them.  As such, any justified individuals that are still alive on the earth, since they could not be a part of the category of "the spirits of just men made perfect," must then be a part of the only other category of justified humans, that is -- "the general assembly and church of the firstborn, which are written in heaven."  It should be noted that these justified individuals are not described as all being in heaven, but only as having their names "written in heaven."

In conclusion then, we understand that this passage was written unto Hebrew believers (being in the epistle to the Hebrews) who were at the very present time of the writing already come "unto the city of the living God, the heavenly Jerusalem," being a part of "the general assembly and church of the firstborn."  Indeed, such an understanding is in perfect unity with the teaching of Ephesians 2:4-6 concerning the believers of the New Testament church -- "But God, who is rich in mercy, for his great love wherewith he loved us, even when we were dead in sins, hath quickened us together with Christ, (by grace ye are saved;) and hath raised us up together, and made us sit together in heavenly places in Christ Jesus."

Edited by Pastor Scott Markle

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This section of Hebrews deals with a comparison between Mount Sinai (12:18-21) and Heavenly Jerusalem (12:22-24).

 

Written to "To the general assembly and church of the firstborn", which I would consider to be strictly a Hebrew group (including the Patriarchs).  I would consider vs. 22-24 to be a yet future event (and destination) -- a "reunion" of sorts -- as the "general assembly" is  panēgyris   which is a festal assembly and celebration.

vs. 18: For ye are not come unto the mount [Sinai] that might be touched, and that burned with fire, nor unto blackness, and darkness, and tempest,

vs. 22: But ye are come unto mount Zion, and unto the city of the living God, the heavenly Jerusalem, and to an innumerable company of angels,

Nobody understood this "ye are not come" to mean that everyone addressed in this section of Hebrews actually traveled to Sinai or heavenly Jerusalem.  This passage is expressed in a tense that places "ye are come" (to Heavenly Jerusalem) as if it had already occurred, and as far as God is concerned, it is as-good-as-done.  It is expressed as a "comparison and contrast" between the old system of Moses given at Sinai and the new system of access to God given by Messiah. There will be a "celebratory reunion" of all those Patriarchs of the O.T. with the Messianic Israelis of the New Testament in the FUTURE.  It's really just a simple literary device (comparison and contrast).

Hebrews is directed at encouraging those Messianic Israelis of the New Testament to press ahead to bring about God's Kingdom on Earth (Millennial Reign of Messiah in Israel).  Obviously the writer of Hebrews had a lot of "authority" with the readers of this Epistle, as he addresses them as such. No doubt, the writer was present at the events of the 2nd Chapter of Acts (Pentecost) and witnessed the POWER of the Holy Spirit.

 

 

 

 

 

 
Edited by beameup

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1 hour ago, beameup said:

This section of Hebrews deals with a comparison between Mount Sinai (12:18-21) and Heavenly Jerusalem (12:22-24).

 

 

vs. 18: For ye are not come unto the mount [Sinai] that might be touched, and that burned with fire, nor unto blackness, and darkness, and tempest,

vs. 22: But ye are come unto mount Zion, and unto the city of the living God, the heavenly Jerusalem, and to an innumerable company of angels,

 

 

Indeed.

1 hour ago, beameup said:

 

I would consider vs. 22-24 to be a yet future event (and destination) . . . .

Even though God the Holy Spirit inspired the communication of the passage to be in the PRESENT TENSE ("are come"), not to be a communication in the future tense, such as -- "shall come," or "are going to come," or "are about to come."

1 hour ago, beameup said:

 

I would consider vs. 22-24 to be a yet future event (and destination) -- a "reunion" of sorts -- as the "general assembly" is  panēgyris   which is a festal assembly and celebration.

And somehow the use of the celebratory noun "panegyris" is able to transform the verb from a present tense verb to a future tense verb???  No!!!  Rather, let us understand that "the church of the firstborn" is indeed the church of our Lord Jesus Christ, the New Testament church, as per Colossians 1:18 -- "And he is the head of the body, the church: who is the beginning, the firstborn from the dead; that in all things he might have the preeminence."  Furthermore, let us understand that the celebratory noun "panegyris" reveals that "the church of the firstborn," the church of our Lord Jesus Christ, the New Testament church, is intended by nature to be a relationship of celebration. 

1 hour ago, beameup said:

 

Written to "To the general assembly and church of the firstborn", which I would consider to be strictly a Hebrew group (including the Patriarchs). 

So then, since the only other phrase in Hebrews 12:22-24 that encompasses human believers is the phrase, "to the spirits of just men made perfect," then this phrase must be the one that encompasses all Gentile believers of all time.  Yet as I have presented above, this phrase can only be a doctrinally legitimate reference unto believers who are already dead and who spirits are already perfected in heaven.  Yet when the passage was written with its present tense communication, there were still Gentile believers alive on the earth.  As such, Brother "Beameup's" definition for "the general assembly and church of the firstborn" is contradictory to Biblical reality. 

Even so, I shall continue to hold unto the position that retains grammatical accuracy and Biblical unity, as I presented above; and I shall reject the position that has been manufactured by Brother "Beameup."

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