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Concern at church


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Hello everyone.

   I don't normally post, but I do try to follow along when time allows. I have a very heavy burden on my heart for my church, and I am afraid that there might be some false doctrine creeping in.

First of all, let me explain. I was very active in these forums about 10 years ago, and I am sure that there are many of you now who don't know where I stand. First of all let me say that I, as many of you, are 100% KJV. I firmly believe what an IFB would usually believe. I say "usually", because in the last 10 years, I have seen a "pulling away" from these Bible based doctrinal beliefs.

I am going to give you some examples of things that I have seen in this church in the last 2 years. I will also give you a brief history of this church. All that I am asking for is some pastoral guidance and confirmation of what I am seeing and hearing. I have been searching my heart and the scriptures and seeking the Lord's direction in this. So before you say; "go talk to your pastor", let me say that I intend to do just that, but I just want to be sure that I am on the right track in this.

 

Our church was started 10 years ago from scratch. I and my family have known the pastor for about that length of time, and have watched this church grow from a small church plant meeting in a rented conference room, to a church which became self-supporting, independent baptist church. We were members of another local IFB church about 25 miles from this one, and about 2 years ago we believed and still do believe that the Lord was leading us to this church. We have since seen the Lord move our housing and my job location to proximity to this church and we have a genuine burden for the area around our church. Over the past year, I have seen and heard somethings that give me concern. We have a family in our church that is charter members. To be brutley honest, they are not faithful in attendance and they send their children to a christian school that leans more to the charismatic side that to a traditional, KJV christian school. To top it off the husband is a deacon of our church, and in reality his wife runs everything, and it appears that she is running our church also. She gets appointed to different tasks and commitees. Her father has recently become our new song director, and he is a retired IFB pastor but still holds ties to the GARBC. How and why you would want to do that is beyond me and a topic of another discussion some other time. Her family and the pastor and his family have been friends since the beginning. The Bible says that "......ye shall know them by their fruits." Since she seems to be the obvious leader of her home, and apparently the church now, I might be wrong in saying this, but based on doctrinal and scriptural beliefs, there is no way that she is right with God. I firmly believe that is the case with her and her family.

Our pastor has a huge heart for missions. That is a great! But I must say that I have concerns. Although he preaches and teaches from the King James and uses the King James, we are considered a  KJV "preferred" church. Not a KJV "only" church. As I look around to different members in our church, I cannot think of more than a handful of people that are there as a direct result of the ministry of this church. The rest of us, and I include myself and family in this, came from other churches. The majority of them came from a couple of Bible churches that have "really departed the faith" in recent years. With that being, the churches have gone contemporary in doctrine and beliefs.These people, themselves mostly do not use the KJV, or hold to some other standards of and IFB church. (ie: dress) These people are far from being poor financially, and I firmly believe that the church building is God's house and that you should dress like it. I believe that some of these people get dresses better to go out on the town, than they do to God's house. I get it that Wed. night is more of a "casual dress night, but Sunday?? No way!

There have been several different signs that I have seen that thigs are amiss, but I am just highlighting a few of them. Recently, our pastor started teaching the men's Sunday School class with a book entitled: "Feeding Your Soul: A Quiet Time Handbook." First of all, it's wriiten by a woman, Jean Fleming. It might might be fine for a ladies SS class, but not a men's class. Secondly, the author and her husband are part of an organization called "The Navigators". Personally I had never heard of them until now, but from what I have researched online they would not be considered IFB, KJV or anything remotely associated with a IFB Christian. They quote scripture on their website using the NIV, and they seem kind of like the "tree hugger", don't preach hard you might offend someone" kind of mentality.

I invited him and his family to accompany myself and our family in attending an old fashioned prayer conference that is held every year by our old church back home about 3 hours away. It's the kind of prayer conference that has only one purpose; to seek the Lord in both prayer and preaching. There were a total of 12 different preachers who faithfully peach the word with conviction, and passion, and who wholey seek the Lord in all that they do. He kept putting me off as to when and how to go, but 2 weeks later hops on a plane to attend the Bible Conference at Bob Jones. There's another subject. I am not a BJU fan. Once again, that's another argument for another time.

Our theme this year is Matthew 6:33. With all that is going on and all that I have seen, I feel that our pastor is falling into the Kingdom doctrine philosiphy that I see going around now a days. I have heard him mention Ravi Zacharias from the pulpit, and I know that he does listen to the local "christian" radio station  which as far as preaching is concerned does not coinside with your typical IFB doctrine. I know that I need to talk to him about these things and not cut and run to another church. I also feel that this is where the Lord has us, but I really don't know how to approach this. So I am asking you all for your input, prayers, and advise in this matter. I want to see this church on the right path and do not want to be the cause of a church split. If so, it wouldn't be the first time that I have had to call a pastor and talk to him concerning issues. I want to say this, that I have been thorouhly been searching the Lord's direction,and have made sure that my heart was right with him before coming here with this matter. So the question is.......What say ye?

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Brother, I understand your concerns.  Several years ago my husband and I were led to a little church who had an interim pastor.  We immediately took a liking to this man.  He was an excellent Bible teacher. We knew that God wanted us to be there.  We were there for about a year and a half and the interim pastor left the church.  They assembled a pulpit committee and began looking for a pastor.  They were desperate so took the first thing that came along.  This man was reformed in theology.  Hubby was on the pulpit committee and he tried to warn the people, but it was more important that they have a pastor.  They brought him in with an almost unanimous vote (dare I say there were only two who voted nay?) and within six months several people had left because they did not agree with his teaching of reformed theology.  We stayed because we didn't want to be a man-follower (it was very tempting to follow the interim pastor to his new church) and because God had not directed us to leave.  He brought us there for a purpose, and we had to trust in him.  We stayed for probably three more years.  My husband had many conversations with him about reformed ideals.  Several times hubby stumped him with his comments and he would say, "I will have to look into that and get back to you" -- and never once did he come back with a rebuttal for what hubby had pointed out to him.  Eventually God clearly led us away from the church and we are now in a solid, loving IFB church.  I am still not 100% sure why we were at that church for that length of time, but it's not for us to know.

My advice for you is that as long as God directs you to be at this church, that is where you are to be.  The pastor is the head of the church and answerable to God.  Show him respect.  Many times my husband questioned our pastor, but always with respect and in a non-confrontational way.  Most times they ended the conversation agreeing to disagree. Whether you agree with him or not, he should have the respect due his office.  I am reminded of David and King Saul.  David had opportunities to kill Saul, but he knew it was up to God to deal with Saul.  I know many people would have said it was wrong to go to a church that taught reformed theology, but hubby and I both felt it was more wrong to walk away from a situation before having clearly been led of the Lord to do so.

I am sorry to say that if this church is heading down the path you suspect, there is little hope for it.  From what you have said it sounds like the key leaders in the church want to go in this direction, and unless God changes their hearts or removes them, then that is the direction it will go.  Rarely do churches or people turn around once that happens.  Frequently the solid people have to walk away.  But it is important to do it in God's timing and in the right way. 

So, pray about it, and my husband and I will be praying with you.  It is not an easy position to be in.

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Mr. Wilson, when you say this church was started from scratch, do you mean to say that it was not begun under the authority of a sending church?  If so, then it was not a church of the kind that Christ started during his earthly ministry.  Its foundation built on sinking sand and what you see today is the fruit of that lack of firm foundation.  

The scriptures teach that we are to reprove and rebuke sin and told how to do it, not slink away in silence as so many do so as not to upset the congregation.  So if after exhorting and reproving and rebuking them with all longsuffering and doctrine they continue in sin then it would seem to me high time to come out from among them and be ye separate.  Of course, the Holy Spirit and God's Word will give you those cues if necessary.  Pray for them and pray for you continually.

There is no perfect, sinless church; a proud woman can be humbled if she be led by the Spirit and ingrained doctrinal error usually only waxes worse.

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Bro. Wilson,

Here are my thoughts. First, re-read Trapperhoney's post carefully and ponder what was said.

5 hours ago, swathdiver said:

The scriptures teach that we are to reprove and rebuke sin and told how to do it, not slink away in silence as so many do so as not to upset the congregation.  So if after exhorting and reproving and rebuking them with all longsuffering and doctrine they continue in sin then it would seem to me high time to come out from among them and be ye separate.  Of course, the Holy Spirit and God's Word will give you those cues if necessary.  Pray for them and pray for you continually...  ingrained doctrinal error usually only waxes worse.

Swathdiver was correct. The pastor, and the woman, have ingrained doctrinal error.

Any time you get a pastor that is Reformed Baptist you are going to have doctrinal issues that will probably not get resolved. It is hard for me to call that type of pastor a true IFB pastor or church.

Just after I got saved, and went overseas (from January 1972-1974), I started fellowshipping with some "Navigators," and learning from them. The Navigators are ecumenical in spirit and in practice, NIV, and other non-IFB related problems. And, they are careful not to offend anybody that says they are, "Christian."

The likihood of the current pastor straightening out the church to be a true soul-winning, KJV, seperated, New Testament, IFB church is highly unlikely. Probably, the pastor will one day lead the church to part ways with the IFB movement and other churches. It sounds like the pastor is just biding his time until he moves the church in the direction that he wants to move it in.

If there was another true IFB within driving distance of your house and you felt the Lord was with them I would leave your current church and attend the other one. Or, if there was not another church that you felt led to unite with, and you felt called of the Lord to preach, I would start a good IFB church in your area.

May God bless your prayers in this matter with an answer from the Lord.

Alan

 

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First of all, let me clarify, that "by scratch" I mean that it was started under the support of 10 other IFB churches. Our church just became self supporting this year.  I will be the first to admit  that I don't know much about reformed baptist. I usually try to stay away from things that are not doctrinaly sound. So being hit with this is kind of left me searching and praying for guidance. I so much appreciate the council and direction that you all have given me. Keep Praying!!

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Mr. Wilson, after the Lord saved me from my sins I knew I had to attend church.  I didn't know any bible and wasted three years attending Catholic and Rock-n-Roll churches.  Even so, I was maturing and learning to listen and submit to the Holy Ghost and heeded the call to move my family sixty miles north to a sound New Testament Church.  We don't make half the money we once did and suffer daily hardships but all of our children are saved now as is my mother-in-law.  Listen and heed the call when it comes.

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