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MountainChristian

What was Jesus' mission?

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Daniel 9:24 ¶ Seventy weeks are determined upon thy people and upon thy holy city, to finish the transgression, and to make an end of sins, and to make reconciliation for iniquity, and to bring in everlasting righteousness, and to seal up the vision and prophecy, and to anoint the most Holy.

It does not say to bring in the blood on bulls and goats for sin offerings but everlasting righteousness. Everlasting!

Luke 1:32 He shall be great, and shall be called the Son of the Highest: and the Lord God shall give unto him the throne of his father David: And he shall reign over the house of Jacob for ever; and of his kingdom there shall be no end.

The teachers of the law say the kingdom was Jesus' mission on His 1st visit. And that the people rejected Jesus so his mission went unfulfilled. As you can see the Angel said "the Lord God shall give unto him the throne of his father David", not the people shall give him the throne. When the people tried to force the throne on Jesus he refused them because they are not the Lord God. I've wondered if the Devil was using the people to keep Jesus away from the cross.

 

 

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An amillennialist would say that passages like Ezekiel 40-48 are merely 'symbolic' and not literal. They would deny what God has said in His Word.

Augustinian theology rightly belongs in the Roman Catholic Church.

A little leaven leveneth the whole lump

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18 hours ago, beameup said:

I would suggest that Ezekiel 40-48 shows that temple worship will be reinstated and sacrifices reestablished during the Millennium under Messiah.

You are correct. Under the New Covenant during the Millennium the temple and sacrifices will be reinstituted. When did this become hard to believe? These people just toss out any verses that go against IFB teachings or just spiritualize them away. Forget literal fulfillment. Just observe above poster. He's straight out saying Ezekiel 40-48 is wrong because Paul said this over here. No attempt to reconcile the two perceived contradictions is attempted. No need to because his IFB school or church taught differently and no way can they be wrong. I honestly believe most in here don't actually read the bible. They just read portions of the bible that back IFB teachings. Or spend most of their time doing word studies of the "original languages" which are dead for a reason. 

Edited by Critical Mass

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When did the offerings of bulls and goats come to an end? It was at the cross.

Matthew 27:50-51 Jesus, when he had cried again with a loud voice, yielded up the ghost. And, behold, the veil of the temple was rent in twain from the top to the bottom; and the earth did quake, and the rocks rent;

Mark 15:37-39 And Jesus cried with a loud voice, and gave up the ghost. And the veil of the temple was rent in twain from the top to the bottom. And when the centurion, which stood over against him, saw that he so cried out, and gave up the ghost, he said, Truly this man was the Son of God.

Luke 23:45-47 And the sun was darkened, and the veil of the temple was rent in the midst. And when Jesus had cried with a loud voice, he said, Father, into thy hands I commend my spirit: and having said thus, he gave up the ghost. Now when the centurion saw what was done, he glorified God, saying, Certainly this was a righteous man.

Don't try to sow the veil back together.

Hebrews 6:19-20 Which hope we have as an anchor of the soul, both sure and stedfast, and which entereth into that within the veil; Whither the forerunner is for us entered, even Jesus, made an high priest for ever after the order of Melchisedec.

Hebrews 9:1-5 Then verily the first covenant had also ordinances of divine service, and a worldly sanctuary. For there was a tabernacle made; the first, wherein was the candlestick, and the table, and the shewbread; which is called the sanctuary. And after the second veil, the tabernacle which is called the Holiest of all; Which had the golden censer, and the ark of the covenant overlaid round about with gold, wherein was the golden pot that had manna, and Aaron's rod that budded, and the tables of the covenant; And over it the cherubims of glory shadowing the mercyseat; of which we cannot now speak particularly.…...........Hebrews 9:9-12 Which was a figure for the time then present, in which were offered both gifts and sacrifices, that could not make him that did the service perfect, as pertaining to the conscience; Which stood only in meats and drinks, and divers washings, and carnal ordinances, imposed on them until the time of reformation. But Christ being come an high priest of good things to come, by a greater and more perfect tabernacle, not made with hands, that is to say, not of this building; Neither by the blood of goats and calves, but by his own blood he entered in once into the holy place, having obtained eternal redemption for us.

Hebrews 10:19-22 Having therefore, brethren, boldness to enter into the holiest by the blood of Jesus, By a new and living way, which he hath consecrated for us, through the veil, that is to say, his flesh; And having an high priest over the house of God; Let us draw near with a true heart in full assurance of faith, having our hearts sprinkled from an evil conscience, and our bodies washed with pure water.

As you can see the old priesthood of Aaron has been replaced with the priesthood of God's only begotten son, Jesus the lamb of God. This is a new and living way, give up the old carnal way of the Law, come live under Jesus' grace.

 

 

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A Baptist pastor once told us it's a waste of time to discuss interpretation of Scripture with the unsaved. He said we should witness to them, not engage them in matters the unsaved can't grasp anyway, and if they refuse the free gift of salvation in preference of arguing points of interpretation we should shake the dust off our feet and move on.

I think of this with regards to at least three people here who present various means of salvation while making untrue arguments on matters of Scripture in countless threads.

Why the continual casting of pearls before swine?

Why are the false teachers not cast out as Scripture declares?

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On ‎2‎/‎21‎/‎2016 at 10:03 AM, Critical Mass said:

You are correct. Under the New Covenant during the Millennium the temple and sacrifices will be reinstituted. When did this become hard to believe? These people just toss out any verses that go against IFB teachings or just spiritualize them away. Forget literal fulfillment. Just observe above poster. He's straight out saying Ezekiel 40-48 is wrong because Paul said this over here. No attempt to reconcile the two perceived contradictions is attempted. No need to because his IFB school or church taught differently and no way can they be wrong. I honestly believe most in here don't actually read the bible. They just read portions of the bible that back IFB teachings. Or spend most of their time doing word studies of the "original languages" which are dead for a reason. 

There are a lot of "sheep" that just follow whatever their pastor or "church leader" tells them.  When I stand before the Judgment Seat of Christ, I don't intend on having excuses like "so and so told me, and he is in a "leadership" position, so it must have been true".

These [Bereans] were more noble than those in Thessalonica, in that they received the word with all readiness of mind, and searched the scriptures daily, whether those things were so.  Acts 17:11

Howbeit when he, the Spirit of truth, is come, he will guide you into all truth: for he shall not speak of himself; but whatsoever he shall hear, that shall he speak: and he will shew you things to come.  John 16:13
Edited by beameup

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On 2/15/2016 at 11:42 PM, MountainChristian said:

Matthew 1:21 And she (Mary) shall bring forth a son, and thou shalt call his name JESUS: for he shall save his people from their sins.

The question becomes who is "his people". Some teach this is the Jewish Nation. They are Mary's people and Jesus is Mary's son. What did Jesus say? 

John 3:16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.

Well that would mean everyone is "his people". God owning all the people, Jews & Gentiles.

John 3:18 He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.

Notice how Jesus uses the word "He" making it personal. So Jesus is saying salvation is personal not national. Did Jesus save his people from their sins? Do Jews have the way to Heaven? Do Gentiles have the way to Heaven? Is Jesus the way to salvation?

 

I think we need to understand a two-fold Ministry of Christ when He appeared.

 

First, He fulfilled, under the Law, the Role of Messiah distinct to the Nation of Israel, which is why He could say (twice) He had come to the Lost Sheep of Israel only.

 

Secondly, we see Him fulfill the Role of Savior of the World.

 

There is no question who John refers to in John 1, "His Own" being a reference to Israel. And when we look at Prophecy, we see numerous indications of a Ruler who, in the minds of the people, would establish a Kingdom without end, restoring Israel to her former glory. When that did not happen, even the disciples are despondent and confused as to why Prophecy had not been fulfilled. The problem they had is that while the Kingdom Gospel was preached, understanding of the Gospel of Christ was not yet given, and would not be until the Comforter came. We can look at the disciples' actions when Christ was taken (they scattered), at Peter's denial that he even knew the Lord, and finally their unbelief that He had, as He said...risen from the grave (Mark 16:9-14, for example).

 

On a national basis we know that the Nation did not receive Christ, and that Paul speaks of her as in a state of blindness which will be corrected at a future date. We know that salvation is a personal issue, because it is necessary for men to come under conviction and for themselves yield to God's efforts as He enlightens them to truth. We cannot believe for another man, and we cannot force salvation on men, and we cannot, in our efforts, contribute to man's response to the Truth.

 

The Kingdom Gospel will one day be fulfilled, and that is when "...all Israel shall be saved," because all unbelieving of that nation will perish, and will not enter into that Kingdom prophesied of in both Old and New Testaments.

 

 

God bless.

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9 hours ago, S.T.Ranger said:

First, He fulfilled, under the Law, the Role of Messiah distinct to the Nation of Israel, which is why He could say (twice) He had come to the Lost Sheep of Israel only.

No verses are given. The word only occurs thirty times in the four gospels so it should be easy to find.

Ten times in the book of Matthew. There is no reference to only Israel, in Matthew. Below are the verses, in Matthew.

  1. Mathew 4:10 Then saith Jesus unto him, Get thee hence, Satan: for it is written, Thou shalt worship the Lord thy God, and him only shalt thou serve.
  2. Matthew5:47 And if ye salute your brethren only, what do ye more than others? do not even the publicans so?
  3. Matthew 8:8 The centurion answered and said, Lord, I am not worthy that thou shouldest come under my roof: but speak the word only, and my servant shall be healed.
  4. Matthew 10:42 And whosoever shall give to drink unto one of these little ones a cup of cold water only in the name of a disciple, verily I say unto you, he shall in no wise lose his reward.
  5. Matthew 12:4 How he entered into the house of God, and did eat the shewbread, which was not lawful for him to eat, neither for them which were with him, but only for the priests?
  6. Matthew 14:36 And besought him that they might only touch the hem of his garment: and as many as touched were made perfectly whole.
  7. Matthew 17:8 And when they had lifted up their eyes, they saw no man, save Jesus only.
  8. Matthew 21:19 And when he saw a fig tree in the way, he came to it, and found nothing thereon, but leaves only, and said unto it, Let no fruit grow on thee henceforward for ever. And presently the fig tree withered away.
  9. Matthew 21:21 Jesus answered and said unto them, Verily I say unto you, If ye have faith, and doubt not, ye shall not only do this which is done to the fig tree, but also if ye shall say unto this mountain, Be thou removed, and be thou cast into the sea; it shall be done.
  10. Matthew 24:36 But of that day and hour knoweth no man, no, not the angels of heaven, but my Father only.

Only occurs four times in the book of Mark. There is no reference to only Israel, in Mark. Below are the verses, in Mark.

  1. Mark 2:7 Why doth this man thus speak blasphemies? who can forgive sins but God only?
  2. Mark 5:36 As soon as Jesus heard the word that was spoken, he saith unto the ruler of the synagogue, Be not afraid, only believe.
  3. Mark 6:8 And commanded them that they should take nothing for their journey, save a staff only; no scrip, no bread, no money in their purse:
  4. Mark 9:8 And suddenly, when they had looked round about, they saw no man any more, save Jesus only with themselves.

In Luke we have six times only was used. Again no references we are looking for. Below are the verses.

  1. Luke 4:8 And Jesus answered and said unto him, Get thee behind me, Satan: for it is written, Thou shalt worship the Lord thy God, and him only shalt thou serve.
  2. Luke 7:12 Now when he came nigh to the gate of the city, behold, there was a dead man carried out, the only son of his mother, and she was a widow: and much people of the city was with her.
  3. Luke 8:42 For he had one only daughter, about twelve years of age, and she lay a dying. But as he went the people thronged him.
  4. Luke 8:50 But when Jesus heard it, he answered him, saying, Fear not: believe only, and she shall be made whole.
  5. Luke 9:38 And, behold, a man of the company cried out, saying, Master, I beseech thee, look upon my son: for he is mine only child.
  6. Luke 24:18 And the one of them, whose name was Cleopas, answering said unto him, Art thou only a stranger in Jerusalem, and hast not known the things which are come to pass there in these days?

Finally we are to John, we see the final ten references. None of them refer to Israel only.

  1. John 1:14 And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us, (and we beheld his glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father,) full of grace and truth.
  2. John 1:18 No man hath seen God at any time; the only begotten Son, which is in the bosom of the Father, he hath declared him.
  3. John 3:16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.
  4. John 3:18 He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.
  5. John 5:18 Therefore the Jews sought the more to kill him, because he not only had broken the sabbath, but said also that God was his Father, making himself equal with God.
  6. John 5:44 How can ye believe, which receive honour one of another, and seek not the honour that cometh from God only?
  7. John 11:49-52 And one of them, named Caiaphas, being the high priest that same year, said unto them, Ye know nothing at all, Nor consider that it is expedient for us, that one man should die for the people, and that the whole nation perish not. And this spake he not of himself: but being high priest that year, he prophesied that Jesus should die for that nation; And not for that nation only, but that also he should gather together in one the children of God that were scattered abroad.
  8. John 12:9 Much people of the Jews therefore knew that he was there: and they came not for Jesus' sake only, but that they might see Lazarus also, whom he had raised from the dead.
  9. John 13:9 Simon Peter saith unto him, Lord, not my feet only, but also my hands and my head.
  10. John 17:3 And this is life eternal, that they might know thee the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom thou hast sent.

The Bible has now told us Jesus never said “Israel Only”. So what did Jesus say?

Matthew 10:5-6 These twelve Jesus sent forth, and commanded them, saying, Go not into the way of the Gentiles, and into any city of the Samaritans enter ye not: But go rather to the lost sheep of the house of Israel.

So we see Jesus telling his disciples they are to go the lost sheep of the house of Israel, and which roads to take. “the way of the Gentiles” means roads. How do we know this “only doctrine does not work? Jesus Himself took the disciples to Samaria in John 4

Matthew 15:21-29 Then Jesus went thence, and departed into the coasts of Tyre and Sidon. And, behold, a woman of Canaan came out of the same coasts, and cried unto him, saying, Have mercy on me, O Lord, thou Son of David; my daughter is grievously vexed with a devil. But he answered her not a word. And his disciples came and besought him, saying, Send her away; for she crieth after us. But he answered and said, I am not sent but unto the lost sheep of the house of Israel. Then came she and worshipped him, saying, Lord, help me. But he answered and said, It is not meet to take the children's bread, and to cast it to dogs. And she said, Truth, Lord: yet the dogs eat of the crumbs which fall from their masters' table. Then Jesus answered and said unto her, O woman, great is thy faith: be it unto thee even as thou wilt. And her daughter was made whole from that very hour. And Jesus departed from thence, and came nigh unto the sea of Galilee; and went up into a mountain, and sat down there.

Jesus tells the Israelis, who He has been sent to, Every plant, which my heavenly Father hath not planted, shall be rooted up,” He then leaves and comes to the Gentiles. She addresses Jesus as “Lord Ben David” which is a clue she may have Jewish roots like the Samaritan woman. (To say she does, is to add to the text.) Addressing not her but His disciples we get vs 24. We now know there is a lost sheep there and that sheep is from the house of Israel. That sheep is Jesus' mission in that location. (To say she hears Jesus in vs 24 is to add to the text.) Now she is worshiping Lord Ben David a very Jewish thing. Jesus does not say she is a dog, nor does He say she is one of the children. (To say one way or the other is to add to the text. I have been guilty of adding to the text in my past. May God forgive me. When others taught she was a dog/Gentile I accepted that teaching and it was wrong.) But Jesus solves her problem and they leave.

To not step on any other verses in the Bible this verse must be seen locally at that one event, other wise we are making other verses false to support the “only” doctrine. True doctrine makes all verses fit together and not prove each other false.

Edited by MountainChristian
, comma

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23 hours ago, S.T.Ranger said:

 

I think we need to understand a two-fold Ministry of Christ when He appeared.

 

First, He fulfilled, under the Law, the Role of Messiah distinct to the Nation of Israel, which is why He could say (twice) He had come to the Lost Sheep of Israel only.

 

Secondly, we see Him fulfill the Role of Savior of the World.

 

There is no question who John refers to in John 1, "His Own" being a reference to Israel.

There was about one hundred and twenty men who accepted Jesus, in Acts chapter one and was waiting for Pentecost. How many of those one hundred and twenty was Gentiles? Were any of them Israelis? Are the disciples who accepted Jesus, Jewish or Gentiles? The Jewish rejection is antisemitism, from the early replacement theology Catholics. They teach disciples but not Jewish disciples.

 

And when we look at Prophecy, we see numerous indications of a Ruler who, in the minds of the people, would establish a Kingdom without end, restoring Israel to her former glory. When that did not happen, even the disciples are despondent and confused as to why Prophecy had not been fulfilled. The problem they had is that while the Kingdom Gospel was preached, understanding of the Gospel of Christ was not yet given, and would not be until the Comforter came.

The Good News of the Kingdom and the Good News of Anointed/Christ are the same thing. Anointed/Christ is the King. There is no Kingdom without Anointed/Christ. Without Anointed/Christ all you would have is Kingdom. Was a King born in Matthew 2:2? (Saying, Where is he that is born King of the Jews? for we have seen his star in the east, and are come to worship him.) Did the Kingdom of God come to them? (Matthew 12:28 But if I cast out devils by the Spirit of God, then the kingdom of God is come unto you.) (Luke 17:20 And when he was demanded of the Pharisees, when the kingdom of God should come, he answered them and said, The kingdom of God cometh not with observation: 21 Neither shall they say, Lo here! or, lo there! for, behold, the kingdom of God is within you.) Only people born again are in His Kingdom, that is what within you means. Both Jew and Gentile.

 

We can look at the disciples' actions when Christ was taken (they scattered), at Peter's denial that he even knew the Lord, and finally their unbelief that He had, as He said...risen from the grave (Mark 16:9-14, for example).

 

On a national basis we know that the Nation did not receive Christ, and that Paul speaks of her as in a state of blindness which will be corrected at a future date. We know that salvation is a personal issue, because it is necessary for men to come under conviction and for themselves yield to God's efforts as He enlightens them to truth. We cannot believe for another man, and we cannot force salvation on men, and we cannot, in our efforts, contribute to man's response to the Truth.

 

The Kingdom Gospel will one day be fulfilled, and that is when "...all Israel shall be saved," because all unbelieving of that nation will perish, and will not enter into that Kingdom prophesied of in both Old and New Testaments.

Matthew 24:14 And this gospel of the kingdom shall be preached in all the world for a witness unto all nations; and then shall the end come.

 

 

The gospel of the kingdom is preached in all the before the end. Before all Israel is saved. Israel is saved in the end when Anointed returns. Will they have the Kingdom ready and waiting for Him or will He bring the Kingdom to them?

 

Two gospel doctrine is so evil and from hell it teaches the Jews must live under the law and death, while Gentiles get to live under the law of grace and life. Two gospel teaches the Jews of the Kingdom live under law and never teaches the Jews of the Kingdom live under grace. Always the law and death.

 

One gospel doctrine always gives grace to the Jewish people. Grace to have thier sins forgive the same as gentiles. Grace of our Lord Jesus Christ be with you ALL. See how one gospel works. All can come in. Any man can come in.

 

God bless.

 

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50 minutes ago, MountainChristian said:

 

Please use proper quoting procedure, as I do not have the time to go through posts in which the response is written within another's post and separate all of it.

 

God bless.

Edited by S.T.Ranger

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49 minutes ago, MountainChristian said:

There was about one hundred and twenty men who accepted Jesus, in Acts chapter one and was waiting for Pentecost. How many of those one hundred and twenty was Gentiles? Were any of them Israelis? Are the disciples who accepted Jesus, Jewish or Gentiles? The Jewish rejection is antisemitism, from the early replacement theology Catholics. They teach disciples but not Jewish disciples.

 

So you deny that Christ came unto His Own and His Own received Him not, and that this is a reference to Israel?

 

49 minutes ago, MountainChristian said:

The Good News of the Kingdom and the Good News of Anointed/Christ are the same thing. Anointed/Christ is the King. There is no Kingdom without Anointed/Christ. Without Anointed/Christ all you would have is Kingdom. Was a King born in Matthew 2:2? (Saying, Where is he that is born King of the Jews? for we have seen his star in the east, and are come to worship him.) Did the Kingdom of God come to them? (Matthew 12:28 But if I cast out devils by the Spirit of God, then the kingdom of God is come unto you.) (Luke 17:20 And when he was demanded of the Pharisees, when the kingdom of God should come, he answered them and said, The kingdom of God cometh not with observation: 21 Neither shall they say, Lo here! or, lo there! for, behold, the kingdom of God is within you.) Only people born again are in His Kingdom, that is what within you means. Both Jew and Gentile.

 

No, that the Kingdom of God is within men does not mean we do not distinguish between the references to the "Kingdom of God" in Scripture.

 

There is the visible Kingdom prophesied in Scripture, which would have Christ on an eternal Throne, which has not yet been established. There is the Kingdom of God that is not visible, which is found in both Old and New Testaments, and pertains to those who belong to God by grace through faith.

 

The Good News of the Kingdom pertains specifically to the understanding Israel had in regards to the Prophecy concerning the Kingdom God promises in Prophecy. Understanding and revelation of the Mystery of the Gospel of Christ was not given then, because it was within and under Law that the Lord Ministered prior to His death and the establishment of the New Covenant. That is not open for debate:

 

Romans 16:24-26

King James Version (KJV)

24 The grace of our Lord Jesus Christ be with you all. Amen.

25 Now to him that is of power to stablish you according to my gospel, and the preaching of Jesus Christ, according to the revelation of the mystery, which was kept secret since the world began,

26 But now is made manifest, and by the scriptures of the prophets, according to the commandment of the everlasting God, made known to all nations for the obedience of faith:

 

Paul also clarifies Prophecy here:

 

1 Corinthians 2:6-9

King James Version (KJV)

6 Howbeit we speak wisdom among them that are perfect: yet not the wisdom of this world, nor of the princes of this world, that come to nought:

But we speak the wisdom of God in a mystery, even the hidden wisdom, which God ordained before the world unto our glory:

8 Which none of the princes of this world knew: for had they known it, they would not have crucified the Lord of glory.

9 But as it is written, Eye hath not seen, nor ear heard, neither have entered into the heart of man, the things which God hath prepared for them that love him.

 

What eye had not seen, and what ear had not heard, and what had not entered into the hearts of men is not "how great Heaven is going to be," as most preachers teach this as saying, but...the Gospel of Jesus Christ.

 

That is the hidden wisdom of God and it was a mystery until revealed by the Spirit of Truth, Who came after Christ departed and we usually view His coming as on the Day of Pentecost.

 

 

50 minutes ago, MountainChristian said:

 

The gospel of the kingdom is preached in all the before the end. Before all Israel is saved. Israel is saved in the end when Anointed returns. Will they have the Kingdom ready and waiting for Him or will He bring the Kingdom to them?

 

Correct. The Gospel of the Kingdom will have its greater application in the Tribulation, and after the Tribulation is over we will see the fulfillment of the Good News of THe Kingdom because the Kingdom prophesied will at that time be established.

 

This is, in Prophecy, specific to Israel, because it is the time when Israel will be restored and all the promises which were not fulfilled during Christ's First Appearing will be fulfilled then.

 

Here is insight to the carnal nature of the minds and hearts of the disciples on the Day of Ascension:

 

Acts 1:4-8

King James Version (KJV)

 

4 And, being assembled together with them, commanded them that they should not depart from Jerusalem, but wait for the promise of the Father, which, saith he, ye have heard of me.

For John truly baptized with water; but ye shall be baptized with the Holy Ghost not many days hence.

When they therefore were come together, they asked of him, saying, Lord, wilt thou at this time restore again the kingdom to Israel?

7 And he said unto them, It is not for you to know the times or the seasons, which the Father hath put in his own power.

But ye shall receive power, after that the Holy Ghost is come upon you: and ye shall be witnesses unto me both in Jerusalem, and in all Judaea, and in Samaria, and unto the uttermost part of the earth.

 

There is good reason why the disciples inquire if He would at that time restore the Kingdom unto Israel...because that is what God has promised to do. It will happen, but not at that time.

 

The disciples are just told that the Prophecy of both John and Christ would be fulfilled not many days hence, that is, that they would be Baptized with the Holy Ghost and forever indwelt by God...

 

...and they ask if He is going to restore the physical Kingdom. Simply amazing.

 

Do you see the difference between the two Kingdoms? The physical, and the Eternal?

 

 

 

50 minutes ago, MountainChristian said:

Two gospel doctrine is so evil and from hell it teaches the Jews must live under the law and death, while Gentiles get to live under the law of grace and life. Two gospel teaches the Jews of the Kingdom live under law and never teaches the Jews of the Kingdom live under grace. Always the law and death.

 

I have no idea how you could possibly conclude that from anything I have said, lol.

 

There is but one Gospel of Christ, and we do well to distinguish between that and the Gospel of the Kingdom, which was specific to Israel alone:

 

Matthew 10:5-7

King James Version (KJV)

5 These twelve Jesus sent forth, and commanded them, saying, Go not into the way of the Gentiles, and into any city of the Samaritans enter ye not:

But go rather to the lost sheep of the house of Israel.

7 And as ye go, preach, saying, The kingdom of heaven is at hand.

 

Matthew 15:22-24

King James Version (KJV)

22 And, behold, a woman of Canaan came out of the same coasts, and cried unto him, saying, Have mercy on me, O Lord, thou son of David; my daughter is grievously vexed with a devil.

23 But he answered her not a word. And his disciples came and besought him, saying, Send her away; for she crieth after us.

24 But he answered and said, I am not sent but unto the lost sheep of the house of Israel.

 

50 minutes ago, MountainChristian said:

 

One gospel doctrine always gives grace to the Jewish people. Grace to have thier sins forgive the same as gentiles. Grace of our Lord Jesus Christ be with you ALL. See how one gospel works. All can come in. Any man can come in.

 

But we aren't speaking about Jews who are saved through Christ, we are speaking of National Israel as opposed to the Church. National Israel has been blinded, and those Jews who believe are part of the Church. While they do not shed their heritage, neither do we equate the Church, which began at Pentecost and consists of Eternally Indwelt Believers who have placed their faith in Christ and His Resurrection...with Israel. Who is the Old Testament picture of the Church, which is the New Testament picture of the One Fold that will dwell in the Eternal State.

 

There is a progression to revelation as well as the understanding God gives men concerning that revelation. We can understand passages like Isaiah 53 in a proper context of Christ as Messiah whereas the Old Testament Saint could not. If you consider the parables of "The Kingdom of God," and consider that in view is the very Kingdom God promised to restore Israel to, you would see that there is a consistency in regards to the Promises of GOd. We distinguish between what is temporal and physical with what is spiritual and Eternal. There will be a physical Kingdom in which the promises the disciples thought would be fulfilled at the time of Christ's coming will be fulfilled (i.e., long life, prosperity, freedom from enemy oppression, lack of enmity between man and animals and animals with other animals, etc.). But they did not understand that the Kingdom Christ would establish would be one from an eternal perspective, and they did not know until it was revealed to them by the Spirit Who came on Pentecost.

 

Colossians 1:25-27

King James Version (KJV)

25 Whereof I am made a minister, according to the dispensation of God which is given to me for you, to fulfil the word of God;

26 Even the mystery which hath been hid from ages and from generations, but now is made manifest to his saints:

27 To whom God would make known what is the riches of the glory of this mystery among the Gentiles; which is Christ in you, the hope of glory:

 

While the context primarily deals with the Mystery of the Gospel in regards to Gentiles (which is also plainly stated in the Old Testament, which did not preclude the ignorance of Israel concerning), but, the siomple fact remains that Paul makes it clear that the Mystery of the Gospel was not revealed in past Ages, but is now made manifest to the Saints. The Mystery has one particular element which is taught by Prophecy, Promise, Christ, and the Apostles...

 

...Christ in us.

And this is not what the disciples were going around preaching, because if they were, then they certainly did not understand it (which begs the question "Did Israel understand?" which is answered with a resounding "No!" because they rejected Christ) and we have the problem of, well, we have just found contradiction in the Word of God. And since the latter is impossible, then it is necessary that we reconcile this so as to clear up the contradiction which exists only in the minds of those who equate the gospel of the Kingdom with the Gospel of Jesus Christ, which was a Mystery, the Hidden Wisdom of God, now made manifest to those set apart unto Him. Which, by the way, is another distinction we can draw: there is a difference between being justified by faith and works and being justified by the Blood (death) of Christ.

 

We do not create "two Gospels" with this distinction, because the two refer to entirely different aspects of the progressive redemption promised to Israel on a temporal level, as well as an eternal. We have Paul's very teaching that Israel, as a Nation, has been blinded through unbelief, and that, when the Redeemer, her Redeemer (which points to the fact Israel was in need of redemption) comes...all Israel will be saved. And this is a matter of simply understanding that when the Millennial Kingdom is established, all unbelievers will have perished, and only born again believing Jews will be left alive.

 

Romans 11:25-27

King James Version (KJV)

25 For I would not, brethren, that ye should be ignorant of this mystery, lest ye should be wise in your own conceits; that blindness in part is happened to Israel, until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in.

26 And so all Israel shall be saved: as it is written, There shall come out of Sion the Deliverer, and shall turn away ungodliness from Jacob:

27 For this is my covenant unto them, when I shall take away their sins.

 

When Israel on a National basis comes under the New Covenant which was promised to them, which God will not renege on, then they will receive the promises of the New Covenant as we have.

 

God bless.

 

 

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7 hours ago, S.T.Ranger said:

Please use proper quoting procedure, as I do not have the time to go through posts in which the response is written within another's post and separate all of it.

 

God bless.

I wonder if you would care to point us to the forum rules where it lays out "proper quoting proceedure".......

 

Your basic arrogance knows no bounds.

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Answering within a quote is a proper and accepted practice on this forum.

If separation of such a reply is a problem, one can isolate items to quote by...

  • Locate the word, sentence, or paragraph that you want to quote.
  • Place your cursor at the beginning of what you want to quote.
  • Hold your left mouse button down, and drag the cursor over until you have highlighted all that you want to quote.
  • Release the mouse button, and a small window will pop up that says "Quote This" (or something similar).
  • Click the words "Quote This".

The quoted selection will then appear in your reply.

To my knowledge and experience, this only works on computers though...not phones...or not my phone anyway...

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I believe this also answers the original question Matthew 3:15 "And Jesus answering said unto him, Suffer it to be so now: for thus it becometh us to fulfil all righteousness. Then he suffered him." 

But, concerning us gentiles, its also prophecy fulfilled...

Isaiah 11:10 And in that day there shall be a root of Jesse, which shall stand for an ensign of the people; to it shall the Gentiles seek: and his rest shall be glorious.

20 And there were certain Greeks among them that came up to worship at the feast:
21 The same came therefore to Philip, which was of Bethsaida of Galilee, and desired him, saying, Sir, we would see Jesus.
22 Philip cometh and telleth Andrew: and again Andrew and Philip tell Jesus.
23 And Jesus answered them, saying, The hour is come, that the Son of man should be glorified.
John 12:20-23

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7 hours ago, S.T.Ranger said:

The Good News of the Kingdom pertains specifically to the understanding Israel had in regards to the Prophecy concerning the Kingdom God promises in Prophecy. Understanding and revelation of the Mystery of the Gospel of Christ was not given then, because it was within and under Law that the Lord Ministered prior to His death and the establishment of the New Covenant. That is not open for debate:

Under the two gospel doctrine, no sins are forgiven until AFTER Jesus has been to the cross. So did Jesus forgive sins before the cross?

Matthew 9:5-6 For whether is easier, to say, Thy sins be forgiven thee; or to say, Arise, and walk? But that ye may know that the Son of man hath power on earth to forgive sins, (then saith he to the sick of the palsy,) Arise, take up thy bed, and go unto thine house.

Mark 2:9-10 Whether is it easier to say to the sick of the palsy, Thy sins be forgiven thee; or to say, Arise, and take up thy bed, and walk? But that ye may know that the Son of man hath power on earth to forgive sins, (he saith to the sick of the palsy,)

Luke 5:23-24 Whether is easier, to say, Thy sins be forgiven thee; or to say, Rise up and walk? But that ye may know that the Son of man hath power upon earth to forgive sins, (he said unto the sick of the palsy,) I say unto thee, Arise, and take up thy couch, and go into thine house.

 

7 hours ago, S.T.Ranger said:

So you deny that Christ came unto His Own and His Own received Him not, and that this is a reference to Israel?

8 Which none of the princes of this world knew: for had they known it, they would not have crucified the Lord of glory.

 

Antisemitism says Jewish people are not part of humanity. Jesus came to all humanity, all need to be saved from their sins. Humanity as a whole rejected Jesus, Jews and Gentiles.

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1 hour ago, DaveW said:

I wonder if you would care to point us to the forum rules where it lays out "proper quoting proceedure".......

 

Your basic arrogance knows no bounds.

 

That's hilarious coming from someone that enters a thread with personal attacks and ignores the OP.

 

That's okay, Dave, from here on out each personal attack will be reported to Moderation, and this certainly qualifies.

 

The purpose of my statement is that I am not going to waste time trying to respond to someone that does not know basic common courtesy on a Debate Forum, but, for you...I'll make an exception.

 

God bless.

 

1 hour ago, No Nicolaitans said:

Answering within a quote is a proper and accepted practice on this forum.

If separation of such a reply is a problem, one can isolate items to quote by...

  • Locate the word, sentence, or paragraph that you want to quote.
  • Place your cursor at the beginning of what you want to quote.
  • Hold your left mouse button down, and drag the cursor over until you have highlighted all that you want to quote.
  • Release the mouse button, and a small window will pop up that says "Quote This" (or something similar).
  • Click the words "Quote This".

The quoted selection will then appear in your reply.

To my knowledge and experience, this only works on computers though...not phones...or not my phone anyway...

 

There is no appeal to the "Guidelines" of this forum, I am speaking that personally I will not respond to posts where the member posts within another member's post, which is not, on any forum, proper and accepted practice, but, leads to confusion as to who says what, and in Doctrinal Discussion and Debate, there is no reason to add to the confusion caused by some members.

 

I did find that the quote function allowed for quoting what was written in my post, however, as I said, I am not going to interact with a member that has the habit of doing this. I did respond to his initial post, but in the future, will not do so.

 

God bless.

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1. There is no problem with requesting someone to be a bit more selective in quoting. It does make it easier for one to read. 

2. It didn't hurt to point out that there is no forum rule regarding basic quoting procedure, and though offense might have been taken at the "arrogance" accusation, mayhap the accused needs to reconsider the attitude in which he is posting. High-hattedness does not fly here very well, although we have all at one time or another posted arrogantly. Sadly.

3. If one doesn't want to respond to someone based on the fact that they don't use the kind of quoting procedure that one demands, that's fine, too. But there's more to common courtesy than the quote button...

But this is silliness. Knock it off.  

Report problems to the moderators, please. But don't spam us on a personal vendetta. Just a forewarning.

Now, let's get back to topic. And, please - stop posting long, long posts. It is as difficult to read long, nattering posts to some as it is to read "improperly" quoted parts.

I'd sure hate to lock another thread...

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49 minutes ago, MountainChristian said:

Under the two gospel doctrine, no sins are forgiven until AFTER Jesus has been to the cross.

 

I am not really sure what you are implying with "the Two Gospel Doctrine," because there is but One Gospel of Christ.

 

That the Kingdom Gospel is distinct from the Gospel of Jesus Christ is evident, because (1) the Gospel of Christ is a Mystery not revealed in that Age (the Age of Law) and (2) we do not see the Lord sending His disciples out to preach the Gospel, for they themselves did not know the Scripture that He should rise from the dead:

 

John 20:9

King James Version (KJV)

9 For as yet they knew not the scripture, that he must rise again from the dead.

 

The passage does make the statement they believed, but, what they believed was that Christ's body was gone from the tomb. If one tries to make it say they believed on Christ, then what does one do with the very statement quoted here? It says plainly, they did not know the Scripture that He must rise from the dead...yet."

 

Secondly, sin was in fact forgiven before the Cross, but not on an eternal level:

 

Hebrews 9:12-15

King James Version (KJV)

12 Neither by the blood of goats and calves, but by his own blood he entered in once into the holy place, having obtained eternal redemption for us.

13 For if the blood of bulls and of goats, and the ashes of an heifer sprinkling the unclean, sanctifieth to the purifying of the flesh:

14 How much more shall the blood of Christ, who through the eternal Spirit offered himself without spot to God, purge your conscience from dead works to serve the living God?

15 And for this cause he is the mediator of the new testament, that by means of death, for the redemption of the transgressions that were under the first testament, they which are called might receive the promise of eternal inheritance.

 

 

We cannot equate atonement under the provision given to men in the Ages prior to the establishment of the New Covenant on the Blood (Death) of Christ with the Atonement provided through Christ Himself.

 

Most do that, by the way, because they equate salvation prior to Eternal Redemption being obtained by Christ with atonement provided through the vicarious death of animals.

 

49 minutes ago, MountainChristian said:

So did Jesus forgive sins before the cross?

 

Yes, He was God, He could do that. But every reference you can find of Christ forgiving sin cannot be equated to the remission of sins provided by His Sacrifice.

 

Christ would still need to die for those He forgave.

 

The only conclusion one could draw if they deny that is that there were people who received Atonement apart from the Work of the Cross. And I know it is popularly taught that men were "saved on credit," but, the simple truth is that the Atonement of the Cross became available when Christ actually died on the Cross. There is nothing in Scripture that teaches "salvation on credit."

 

Colossians 1:12-14

King James Version (KJV)

 

12 Giving thanks unto the Father, which hath made us meet to be partakers of the inheritance of the saints in light:

13 Who hath delivered us from the power of darkness, and hath translated us into the kingdom of his dear Son:

14 In whom we have redemption through his blood, even the forgiveness of sins:

 

 

49 minutes ago, MountainChristian said:

Matthew 9:5-6 For whether is easier, to say, Thy sins be forgiven thee; or to say, Arise, and walk? But that ye may know that the Son of man hath power on earth to forgive sins, (then saith he to the sick of the palsy,) Arise, take up thy bed, and go unto thine house.

Mark 2:9-10 Whether is it easier to say to the sick of the palsy, Thy sins be forgiven thee; or to say, Arise, and take up thy bed, and walk? But that ye may know that the Son of man hath power on earth to forgive sins, (he saith to the sick of the palsy,)

Luke 5:23-24 Whether is easier, to say, Thy sins be forgiven thee; or to say, Rise up and walk? But that ye may know that the Son of man hath power upon earth to forgive sins, (he said unto the sick of the palsy,) I say unto thee, Arise, and take up thy couch, and go into thine house.

 

So the man sick of the palsy was eternally forgiven apart from Christ's Work? He would not have to remain obedient to the Law?

Can we overlook the rest of the voluminous testimony from Christ and the Apostles?

 

Here is another passage that makes it clear that the sins of men were forgiven at the Cross:

 

Romans 3:23-26

King James Version (KJV)

23 For all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God;

24 Being justified freely by his grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus:

25 Whom God hath set forth to be a propitiation through faith in his blood, to declare his righteousness for the remission of sins that are past, through the forbearance of God;

26 To declare, I say, at this time his righteousness: that he might be just, and the justifier of him which believeth in Jesus.

 

 

49 minutes ago, MountainChristian said:

Antisemitism says Jewish people are not part of humanity.

 

How is that relevant to anything I have said?

 

49 minutes ago, MountainChristian said:

Jesus came to all humanity, all need to be saved from their sins.

 

It is not me you argue with:

 

Matthew 10:5-7

King James Version (KJV)

 

These twelve Jesus sent forth, and commanded them, saying, Go not into the way of the Gentiles, and into any city of the Samaritans enter ye not:

But go rather to the lost sheep of the house of Israel.

And as ye go, preach, saying, The kingdom of heaven is at hand.

 

They did not go to the Gentiles and Samaritans, and this is commanded of them by Christ, Who also stated...

 

Matthew 15:22-24

King James Version (KJV)

 

22 And, behold, a woman of Canaan came out of the same coasts, and cried unto him, saying, Have mercy on me, O Lord, thou son of David; my daughter is grievously vexed with a devil.

23 But he answered her not a word. And his disciples came and besought him, saying, Send her away; for she crieth after us.

24 But he answered and said, I am not sent but unto the lost sheep of the house of Israel.

 

So, MC, what is the Lord saying here?

 

50 minutes ago, MountainChristian said:

Humanity as a whole rejected Jesus, Jews and Gentiles.

 

And I agree with that, but, that does not change the fact that Messiah had a specific Role to Israel in His earthly Ministry, and a distinct Role as Savior of the World.

 

If you consider that the Gospel of Christ was a Mystery and not revealed in past Ages, and that His Ministry to Israel was within the framework of the revelation provided to them at that time (the Hebrew Scriptures, the Old Testament), then you will have to acknowledge that Christ ministered under the Law, and did so...because He had not yet established the New Covenant as was promised in the Old Testament.

 

I am really surprised that on an Independent Fundamental Forum that the concept of the distinction between the Kingdoms is not readily known. We see a difference in the Kingdom that was Israel, the Kingdom that will come (restored Israel, in the Millennial Kingdom), the Kingdom which is the rule of God in the hearts of believers, and the Kingdom which will come, the Eternal State.

 

How do you, if you don't mind me asking, reconcile that Christ states "The Kingdom of God is within you," and Paul stating that we have been translated into the Kingdom of His dear Son? Was not Paul a Hebrew of the Hebrews? Does he not distinguish the difference between being a member of Israel and being translated into the Kingdom of Christ?

 

God bless.

 

 

 

 

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10 hours ago, S.T.Ranger said:

That the Kingdom Gospel is distinct from the Gospel of Jesus Christ is evident, because (1) the Gospel of Christ is a Mystery not revealed in that Age (the Age of Law) and (2) we do not see the Lord sending His disciples out to preach the Gospel, for they themselves did not know the Scripture that He should rise from the dead:

So after seeing Jesus rise from the dead and spending about 40 days with Him, they did not know Jesus was going to rise from the dead. On Pentecost preaching Gospel of the Kingdom under one gospel doctrine Peter does know Jesus rose from the dead.

Act 2:23-24 Him, being delivered by the determinate counsel and foreknowledge of God, ye have taken, and by wicked hands have crucified and slain: Whom God hath raised up, having loosed the pains of death: because it was not possible that he should be holden of it.

So if Gospel of the Kingdom includes the Cross and Resurrection like Peter preached it is the Gospel of Christ. One gospel doctrine. 

Under two gospel doctrine, read the cross, then turn back towards the front of the Bible and teach Matthew 10. Yes, after the cross two gospel teaches the eleven disciples never preach the cross and resurrection. "we do not see the Lord sending His disciples out to preach the Gospel, for they themselves did not know the Scripture that He should rise from the dead" 

 

Edited by MountainChristian
spelling error

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Well, let's see.

Heb 9:22 And almost all things are by the law purged with blood; and without shedding of blood is no remission.

So, do we all understand this first point? Good. Then lets move on to the second point.

Heb 10:4 For it is not possible that the blood of bulls and of goats should take away sins.

Still with me so far?

Eph 1:7 In whom we have redemption through his blood, the forgiveness of sins, according to the riches of his grace;

Sins were not washed away before the death of Christ, for anybody. Jew or Gentile.That's why paradise, or Abraham's bosom. A place to wait until those sins that were merely covered temporarily by the blood of animals could be removed permanent by the blood of the Lamb. When Christ ascended to glory to present His worthy sacrifice to the Father, and placed His blood on the mercy seat in the throne room of Heaven, paradise was emptied and all who believed in faith, from Adam to the thief on the cross, entered into their final "rest", Heaven. Their sins were now forgiven, gone, removed, not just covered. The gospel, the "good news" IS Jesus Christ and his finished work, and since there is only one Jesus Christ, there is only one gospel. The Kingdom of Heaven and the Kingdom of God are two different kingdoms, yes, but both are ultimately built on Christ and his finished work, so the "gospel" of each is still the same. One gospel. My Lord and Savior, Jesus Christ. Abraham's Lord and Savior, Jesus Christ. One Gospel.

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