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Old-Pilgrim

'ye are fallen from grace'

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Ga 5:1 Stand fast therefore in the liberty wherewith Christ hath made us free, and be not entangled again with the yoke of bondage.
Ga 5:2 Behold, I Paul say unto you, that if ye be circumcised, Christ shall profit you nothing.
Ga 5:3 For I testify again to every man that is circumcised, that he is a debtor to do the whole law.
Ga 5:4 Christ is become of no effect unto you, whosoever of you are justified by the law; ye are fallen from grace.

A Christian can't lose their salvation, if they are actualy saved, but they can fail to stand, and fall from grace and as such Christ will profit nothing, and the Christian can be in a state of worse sinning than they were before they were saved.

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Good verses to show a Pentecostal, Church of God, Holiness, Seven Day Adventist and other Arminianists. If you add works to your faith then you have to keep all the law which would include the animal sacrifices, feast days and pilgrimages to a centralized temple. 

 

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7 minutes ago, John81 said:

What or how many Pentecostals are Arminianists? Thus far, I've never met a Pentecostal who believes a person can lose their salvation.

Say what? They are almost exclusively Arminian. If you don't believe it just ask Jimmy Swaggart. 

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I don't know who you've met, John, but most Pentacostals believe salvation can be lost. My Dad's entire family (except one brother) is pentacostal. In fact, my grandpa was a pentacostal preacher (so is one of my aunts, but we don't talk much about that...) who taught salvation could be lost.

They reject what they call the "once saved, always saved" doctrine in favor of the idea of falling from grace.

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The Galatians fell away from grace by becoming legalistic:

Knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the law, but by the faith of Jesus Christ,
even we have believed in Jesus Christ, that we might be justified by the faith of Christ,
and not by the works of the law: for by the works of the law shall no flesh be justified.  Gal 2:16
 
Paul's solution to not abusing grace: Walk in the Spirit :D
This I say then, Walk in the Spirit, and ye shall not fulfil the lust of the flesh.  Gal 5:16
For if ye live after the flesh, ye shall die: but if ye through the Spirit do mortify the deeds of the body, ye shall live.  Rom 8:13
Edited by beameup

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I don't doubt that some Pentecostals are Arminian, I was just wondering if certain ones are and others not. Are there different groups or "denominations" which lean more one way than the other?

My knowledge of this aspect of Pentecostals is mostly by experience, coming from the Pentecostals I've known well enough to have conversations with. I've not read much or heard many sermons from Pentecostals.

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On Sunday, February 14, 2016 at 2:55 AM, John81 said:

What or how many Pentecostals are Arminianists? Thus far, I've never met a Pentecostal who believes a person can lose their salvation.

Hello John, I went to an AOG for ten years and most of them believed you could lose your salvation. Our Pastor once said that if you go father north (in Scotland) the AOG were more Calvanist, I think the AOG are less rigid or defined by doctrine and so there ismore room for veriety, and so they vary from area to area, and on some topics the AOG are undecided and so let coexist.

Edited by Old-Pilgrim
correction

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On Sunday, February 14, 2016 at 6:25 AM, HappyChristian said:

... They reject what they call the "once saved, always saved" doctrine in favor of the idea of falling from grace.

Hello 'Happy Christian' ''ye are fallen from grace'' is a scripture, of course most here, including myself don't think it is in reference to losing salvation, since that would be un-scriptural. There are only a few things which it could possibly mean, and I won't try and list every possible interpretation, but I think the correct understanding of the passage can be more easily understood in the AV than in many of the translations, and that is, that a Christian can't lose his salvation, but they can fail to STAND. And this can be understood as a Christian who is saved (by grace) but then reverts back to some sort of works in order to 'keep in Gods good books', They don't just hypothetically fall from grace, but in that Christ becomes of ‘no effect’ unto them, they actually fall from all current grace in their lives (so you have a miserable sinning Christian, or a self righteous religious person) but they are still eternally secure, and that by grace as it always was.

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I think this topic is important because the book of Galatians is about a ‘pitfall’ which many Christians can and have fall/en into, (some happily bypass this pitfall in blissful ignorance by simply following Christ in faith) the result is that effectively there is no presence or work of the Holy Spirit in their lives (ouch) I believe this can happen in whole Churches and denominations. The Holy Spirit works in individuals, but if wrong teaching is causing wrong beliefs then it could spread like leaven through a whole group of Christians.

The Holy Spirit can be grieved or quenched, and I guess either of the two could have the same effect, i.e. no Spirit Working in the life of the Christian. But Galatians isn’t about that, but is about the error of trusting in Christ PLUS Moses, Acts 15:5  ‘But there rose up certain of the sect of the Pharisees which believed, saying, That it was needful to circumcise them, and to command them to keep the law of Moses.’ These teachers were ‘Christian’ ex Pharisees, but the result was that Christians would start to doubt the true nature of the Gospel of Grace, and so they would shrink back from faith to perdition. I believe there are many ‘Reformed’ teachers teaching this same type of heresy, minus the circumcision. And they don’t say ‘Except ye be circumcised after the manner of Moses, ye cannot be saved’, but something more like ‘if you are really saved then you will keep the law’, or ‘in order to be sanctified you need to keep the Law’.  Broadly put, I think Lordship Salvation, is a more subtle form of the heresy which the Galatian Church was being taught.

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2 hours ago, Old-Pilgrim said:

Hello John, I went to an AOG for ten years and most of them believed you could lose your salvation. Our Pastor once said that if you go father north (in Scotland) the AOG were more Calvanist, I think the AOG are less rigid or defined by doctrine and so there ismore room for veriety, and so they vary from area to area, and on some topics the AOG are undecided and so let coexist.

Yes, AOG churches vary widely. The AOG church I attended with a girlfriend back in 1981 when I was saved was rather conservative. There was no "tongues speaking", no wild music, no dancing or jumping around, just straight from the Bible preaching, mostly on end-times matters and the need to be saved, living godly and sharing the Gospel.

Then the pastor of that church moved to Texas and the new pastor and his wife came in and they leaned greatly toward the Charismatic side. Very shortly after their arrival a drum set was placed on the platform and a band added to services. The pastor, his wife and a few others were "speaking in tongues" and then several in the congregation began to do so. The new pastor didn't preach straight from Scripture as the old one, but rather gave more of a "happy, story time" sermon with a few mentions of Scripture from a very weak MV.

Even still being a young Christian I knew I didn't want to be there so we stopped attending.

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51 minutes ago, Old-Pilgrim said:

I think this topic is important because the book of Galatians is about a ‘pitfall’ which many Christians can and have fall/en into, (some happily bypass this pitfall in blissful ignorance by simply following Christ in faith) the result is that effectively there is no presence or work of the Holy Spirit in their lives (ouch) I believe this can happen in whole Churches and denominations. The Holy Spirit works in individuals, but if wrong teaching is causing wrong beliefs then it could spread like leaven through a whole group of Christians.

The Holy Spirit can be grieved or quenched, and I guess either of the two could have the same effect, i.e. no Spirit Working in the life of the Christian. But Galatians isn’t about that, but is about the error of trusting in Christ PLUS Moses, Acts 15:5  ‘But there rose up certain of the sect of the Pharisees which believed, saying, That it was needful to circumcise them, and to command them to keep the law of Moses.’ These teachers were ‘Christian’ ex Pharisees, but the result was that Christians would start to doubt the true nature of the Gospel of Grace, and so they would shrink back from faith to perdition. I believe there are many ‘Reformed’ teachers teaching this same type of heresy, minus the circumcision. And they don’t say ‘Except ye be circumcised after the manner of Moses, ye cannot be saved’, but something more like ‘if you are really saved then you will keep the law’, or ‘in order to be sanctified you need to keep the Law’.  Broadly put, I think Lordship Salvation, is a more subtle form of the heresy which the Galatian Church was being taught.

Our pastor will be preaching through the book of Galatians next.

We are in the book of Romans in adult Sunday school and our pastor touched upon some of these matters today. He referred to Galatians, pointed out the difference between Catholic teaching and Christian teaching on faith and works, mentioned some of the differences among some Reformed and other Protestant churches, etc.

Even in our own churches some of this can come up and cause problems. I've heard Baptists declare things like, "if he was really saved he wouldn't smoke...wouldn't have that one beer on Saturday...wouldn't wear their hair that way...would wear a certain style of suit...would not wear a red dress...etc.

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6 minutes ago, John81 said:

Yes, AOG churches vary widely. The AOG church I attended with a girlfriend back in 1981 when I was saved was rather conservative. There was no "tongues speaking", no wild music, no dancing or jumping around, just straight from the Bible preaching, mostly on end-times matters and the need to be saved, living godly and sharing the Gospel.

Then the pastor of that church moved to Texas and the new pastor and his wife came in and they leaned greatly toward the Charismatic side. Very shortly after their arrival a drum set was placed on the platform and a band added to services. The pastor, his wife and a few others were "speaking in tongues" and then several in the congregation began to do so. The new pastor didn't preach straight from Scripture as the old one, but rather gave more of a "happy, story time" sermon with a few mentions of Scripture from a very weak MV.

Even still being a young Christian I knew I didn't want to be there so we stopped attending.

Yes, although we are not to be following a pastor, since in most setups he is preaching most every week then it is pretty important to have someone who is right for the job, I have left churches based on who the pastor is or rather what is being preached.

2 minutes ago, John81 said:

Our pastor will be preaching through the book of Galatians next.

We are in the book of Romans in adult Sunday school and our pastor touched upon some of these matters today. He referred to Galatians, pointed out the difference between Catholic teaching and Christian teaching on faith and works, mentioned some of the differences among some Reformed and other Protestant churches, etc.

Even in our own churches some of this can come up and cause problems. I've heard Baptists declare things like, "if he was really saved he wouldn't smoke...wouldn't have that one beer on Saturday...wouldn't wear their hair that way...would wear a certain style of suit...would not wear a red dress...etc.

lol, brings back memories, I was once told that 'I should wear a suit on Sunday, I was told this by a lady who was wearing black lipstick (hope she doesn't read this)

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I can see that this new formatt is messed up, it almost looks as if I am answering you before to talk, Or I'm talking to myself. :wacko:

6 minutes ago, Old-Pilgrim said:

Yes, although we are not to be following a pastor, since in most setups he is preaching most every week then it is pretty important to have someone who is right for the job, I have left churches based on who the pastor is or rather what is being preached.

lol, brings back memories, I was once told that 'I should wear a suit on Sunday, I was told this by a lady who was wearing black lipstick (hope she doesn't read this)

I siad 'lol' but this is not funny at the time, it is like a deadly spiritual battle.

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On 2/21/2016 at 2:53 PM, Old-Pilgrim said:

Hello 'Happy Christian' ''ye are fallen from grace'' is a scripture, of course most here, including myself don't think it is in reference to losing salvation, since that would be un-scriptural. There are only a few things which it could possibly mean, and I won't try and list every possible interpretation, but I think the correct understanding of the passage can be more easily understood in the AV than in many of the translations, and that is, that a Christian can't lose his salvation, but they can fail to STAND. And this can be understood as a Christian who is saved (by grace) but then reverts back to some sort of works in order to 'keep in Gods good books', They don't just hypothetically fall from grace, but in that Christ becomes of ‘no effect’ unto them, they actually fall from all current grace in their lives (so you have a miserable sinning Christian, or a self righteous religious person) but they are still eternally secure, and that by grace as it always was.

I would agree with you. Pentecostals, however, believe that falling from grace means losing one's salvation.

On 2/14/2016 at 4:54 AM, John81 said:

I don't doubt that some Pentecostals are Arminian, I was just wondering if certain ones are and others not. Are there different groups or "denominations" which lean more one way than the other?

My knowledge of this aspect of Pentecostals is mostly by experience, coming from the Pentecostals I've known well enough to have conversations with. I've not read much or heard many sermons from Pentecostals.

I have a friend who is pentacostal who claims to believe in eternal security. But she also believes that if one sins badly enough, one loses salvation. How that is eternal security is beyond me, but my point is that many claim to accept eternal security but don't really when questioned deeply.

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