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John81

Rapture and Anti-Christ

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2 minutes ago, Old-Pilgrim said:

I don't think I said anything about Naming the Antichrist, but what I meant was that some people believe that one thing which was instrumental in the reformation was that when the Church Identified the RC church as the manifestation of the enemy of Christ on earth, by mature and engage I mean that Christ might not be coming back until we are ready, as I said ''My main concern is not so much whether Luther believed such a thing or not, but whether it is true or not, if it is true, then we would be indeed co workers with Christ. And it could be that the time scale of the prophecy in Daniel about the church being trodden down and persecuted for a long time might actually depend on how long we take to mature and overcome the world, i.e. the ball might be in our court. I know that is a bit foggy. This would mean that although The Lord knows on what date for example the stone not hewn by hand shall hit the feet of the image, as described in Daniel, that date might not actually be set yet, and might be dependent on how soon the Church matures. Aren't the saints going to be behind the Lamb at Armageddon? so at that point we shall be fully engaged in battle.

 

 

What end-times view do you hold to? That makes a big difference in how a person sees these things.

There are some who believe Christianity will spread strongly around the world and then Christ will return. Those who hold to the pre-trib rapture view see a world heading into great turmoil, the rapture of Christians, the time of tribulation and at the final battle the saints in heaven will join Christ as He defeats the devil and his followers.

Our call today is to grow in Christlikeness, to spread the Gospel, make disciples, and be found living right in the Lord when He comes for us.

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6 minutes ago, Invicta said:

Luther changed his mind on a number of issues.  One source of hearsay of Luther, it is the book, Luther's Table Talk.  It is purported to be sayings that his friends collected while at his table.  They may be true but maybe not. Quite an extensive book.  I think I have a copy somewhere but I have never read much of it. I have not seen it lately so may not have it now.  

 

I may try checking that quote. But as I said before I would go solely by Scripture, the church fathers writings as far as I can see are hearsay, Scripture is the Word of God, weren't they mostly based round Alexandria and probably favored Rome somewhat. I can't really go with the view 'Paul probably told them something which God the Holy Spirit never managed to get into his word, they interpret prophecy in their context, and we in ours, we have a wider spectrum of History to take into account.

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3 hours ago, Old-Pilgrim said:

I may try checking that quote. But as I said before I would go solely by Scripture, the church fathers writings as far as I can see are hearsay, Scripture is the Word of God, weren't they mostly based round Alexandria and probably favored Rome somewhat. I can't really go with the view 'Paul probably told them something which God the Holy Spirit never managed to get into his word, they interpret prophecy in their context, and we in ours, we have a wider spectrum of History to take into account.

Some of the writings "church fathers" were scriptural and some were based on North African and Gnostic heresies. Origen (an Arian) wrote the Hexapla which in reality is the phony Septuagint (aka LXX). There was no Seputagint before or during Christ's days. Origen made it up based on what he thought it would read like. The only evidence of it prior to him was a fable written within the Letter of Aristeas who was an Alexandrian Jew. Of course, all the scholars were suckered into believing it to be true.

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On Sunday, February 14, 2016 at 2:22 AM, Critical Mass said:

This has never been the predominate view of Christians. All the great missionaries of the 18th-19th centuries have been post-millennialists but after the end of the bloodiest century in history, the 20th century, the tide turned. Prior to that time most were a-millennialists. Now you are seeing the emergence of the Pre-wrath scenario where Christians will go through 1/2 to 3/4 of the Great Tribulation. 

The problem lies in the above quoted passage of scripture where Paul seems to suggest that believers will see the man of sin. The problem is is that the man of sin (aka the mystery of iniquity) was already at work in Paul's day. 

Hello CM

>>The problem lies in the above quoted passage of scripture where Paul seems to suggest that believers will see the man of sin. The problem is is that the man of sin (aka the mystery of iniquity) was already at work in Paul's day. <<

If the 'mystery of iniquity' was the same as what some call the 'mystery religion' or the 'wisdom teachings' IE all the various occult secret societies & religion(s), ancient or modern, who follow Lucifer. then the 'mystery of iniquity' would be the spirit and the secretive system which works from the shadows and has always been attempting to enthrone a world leader, the man of perdition would be when The Lord allows them to enthrone a man in such a position and he is made public, once the system is all in place. If you want to see a history of the mystery religion, see Chris Pinto's Documentaries, some of which are on YouTube as whole copies. Megiddo 1 and Megiddo 2-The-New-Age are a good start, or the Mysteries series 1 2&3. To watch the bulk of C Pintos Documentaries would take about 9-12 hours, I would recommend it.

The view that the Pope is 'THE AntiChrist' might be more or less right and I would not dismiss it off hand, but there is more than one major character mentioned in Revelation, there is the Beast, and the false prophet,  But the Mysteries Religion (or the New Age as it sometime gets called is a ancient and persistent spiritual movement which has gained much power in the last few centuries, and it is so subtle and secretive that most either think id doesn't exist or that it in not worthy of investigation. In Megiddo two, as I saw it, it sort of traces how a few people sitting round having a seance here and there has been organized by the Theosophical Society into a influential force, including having a huge influence on the United Nations. The Documentary covers other things as well. I will post a few links here.

 

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19 hours ago, Critical Mass said:

There was no Seputagint before or during Christ's days. Origen made it up based on what he thought it would read like. The only evidence of it prior to him was a fable written within the Letter of Aristeas who was an Alexandrian Jew. Of course, all the scholars were suckered into believing it to be true.

Of course there was. Josephus describes it being translated.  It to say it was not.  is wishful thinking on the part of those who have an axe to grind to say it was not in circulation.  At the time of Antiochus Epiphanes there were Helenistic Jews who supported him and they would have wanted the scripture in the language they used.

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23 hours ago, John81 said:

What end-times view do you hold to? That makes a big difference in how a person sees these things.

There are some who believe Christianity will spread strongly around the world and then Christ will return. Those who hold to the pre-trib rapture view see a world heading into great turmoil, the rapture of Christians, the time of tribulation and at the final battle the saints in heaven will join Christ as He defeats the devil and his followers.

Our call today is to grow in Christlikeness, to spread the Gospel, make disciples, and be found living right in the Lord when He comes for us.

Hello John 81, I did reply to your question last night, but it seems to have been lost, I will try again next time if I don't forget.

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On ‎2‎/‎14‎/‎2016 at 1:25 AM, John81 said:

I was born again in 1981 and I came to Christ after seeing the movie "Thief in the Night" at an Assembly of God church my girlfriend at the time talked me into attending. As most know, that film is based upon the pre-trib rapture view. That church held to that view and every Sunday night service was focused upon end-times matters. So most of my early born again learning on the matter was from books and sermons from the 1970s and early 80s. Everything I heard at the time indicated the Anti-Christ would not be known until after the Rapture. Over the past couple of years I'm hearing more and more that Christians will be here when the Anti-Christ takes the world stage and we will know who he is; the Rapture taking place sometime after that.

Why the shift from the predominate view being Christians wouldn't know who the Anti-Christ was because we would be raptured prior to his revealing, to the current view which says the Anti-Christ will be revealed before the Rapture so Christians will know who he is?

Back to the OP - sorry folk, but it's what John was hoping for :)

I grew up through WWII & until the mid 50s knew only the Church of England teaching -
the relevant section of the Apostles' Creed:

6. He ascended into heaven, and sits at the right hand of God the Father Almighty:
7. From thence he shall come to judge the quick and the dead:
.......
1l. The resurrection of the body: 12. And the life everlasting. Amen.

Discussion at school came to the consensus that because Israel was back in the promised land, the return of Christ would take place in the relatively near future.

At university (late 50s) I learned of other views of the second coming, & realised that the Scofield Bible used by some was involved. Basically 2 views were held - pre- & amillennialism. I don't recall dispensationalism being taught. The churches I attended held to the historic amil position.

When we married & moved to London we found the church was teaching dispensationalism. And folk were arguing about the finer points of second coming doctrine. Those folk retired & moved away. Meanwhile, we moved to another church until a new pastor was called who taught the historic amil doctrine. In the 90s I preached through Revelation from the historic amil position. I didn't need to contend, there was broad agreement. 

With the rise of Christian radio, I heard a lot dispensational teaching from American preachers, & realised it was a very significant teaching that many were espousing. Until then it seems that only dubious sects like Brethren & Pentecostals held it. Now, through such publicity as occasioned by the "Left Behind" series it was becoming mainstream.

Back to the OP - all this time I understood antichrist to be the Papacy, after all, Scripture teaches many antichrists, & the reformers & others fleeing Rome knew who their enemy was. Towards the end of the 20th C, various individuals were being named as possible, most of whom are now dead. Russian & Islamic leaders were particularly favoured.

You ask, "Why the shift from the predominate view being Christians wouldn't know who the Anti-Christ was because we would be raptured prior to his revealing, to the current view which says the Anti-Christ will be revealed before the Rapture so Christians will know who he is?"

I don't think your question is valid, as it seems all along dispensational Christians have been looking for a man they can identify as a potential antichrist, who they expect to rise before the supposed rapture but to take power during the trib.

I suspect that depending on which Christian "circle" you are in, you will find various prevalent views. I won't give my view except by popular demand :)

 

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On Tuesday, March 01, 2016 at 11:33 PM, Invicta said:

Of course there was. Josephus describes it being translated.  It to say it was not.  is wishful thinking on the part of those who have an axe to grind to say it was not in circulation.  At the time of Antiochus Epiphanes there were Helenistic Jews who supported him and they would have wanted the scripture in the language they used.

I’ve spent a few hours on this topic reading and listening, and I don’t believe there was a full Pre-Christian Old Testament in Greek and if there was the column in the Hexapla Didn’t contain a copy of it, and the Apostles nor the NT writers and certainly Christ never quoted from it. I mean can you just imagine that God incarnated and visited the earth to redeem mankind and found that the ‘jots tittles’ were lost because all he could find to use was a poorly translated corrupt Greek translation of the Bible? What kind of God do the critical scholars imagine in their hearts?

When Scholars say that the Apostles quoted the Greek, they say this because they never quoted the Hebrew and at times their quotes resembled the Hexapla, (which was compiled about 200AD) or was it the Hexapla which resembled their quotes? (I think so) just like if I was witnessing the Gospel to you and I said, ‘it says in John that you need to be born again…’, when in actual fact in the AV it says ‘Ye must be born again’, the reason my ‘quote’ is different, isn’t because I quoted some other version which you haven’t yet come across, no it is because I was trying to make a point about the teaching, I wasn’t trying to give you an exact quote, similarly The New Testament writers and the Apostles were using their Hebrew Scripture and their knowledge from it to teach the people. A plain reading of scripture will reveal this to anyone, there isn’t even any need to know what corrupt translations are extant.

Heb 2:6 But one in a certain place testified, saying, What is man, that thou art mindful of him? or the son of man, that thou visitest him?

Paul could obviously speak Hebrew, and the Jews could understand him, as you would expect, Jesus Spoke Hebrew when speaking to Saul, Ac 21:40, Ac 26:14

If Paul or any of the other Jewish converts were writing an epistle to Gentiles, he would not need to use a Greek translation, he would simply write it in Greek himself, doing his own translation when ‘quoting’ the Hebrew Scripture. This is why NT quotes sometimes aren’t exactly like the Septuagint nor are they exactly like the Hebrew source

On Josephus, just so we have an idea what sort of Historian he was

Flavius Josephus fully defected to the Roman side and was granted Roman citizenship. He became an advisor and friend of Vespasian's son Titus, serving as his translator when Titus led the Siege of Jerusalem, which resulted—when the Jewish revolt did not surrender—in the city's destruction and the looting and destruction of Herod's Temple (Second Temple).

,  On his work which talks about this Septuagint ‘‘Josephus omitted certain accounts in the Jewish narrative and even added a Hellenistic "glaze" to his work. For example, the "Song of the Sea" sung by Moses and the people of Israel after their deliverance at the Red Sea is completely omitted in Josephus' text.[5] He does mention, however, that Moses composed a song to God in hexameter—a rather unusual (and Greek) metrical scheme for an ancient Hebrew.[6] Josephus also writes that Abraham taught science to the Egyptians, who in turn taught the Greeks, and that Moses set up a senatorial priestly aristocracy, which like Rome resisted monarchy. Thus, in an attempt to make the Jewish history more palatable to his Greco-Roman audience, the great figures of the biblical stories are presented as ideal philosopher-leaders.’’

Josephus wasn’t so much a Historian as a propaganda minister. So we should not let such characters destort our understanding of the Scriptures of Truth.

Edited by Old-Pilgrim
emph' spelling

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I think most Baptists around here would probably be historic amil and a number of evangelicals as well.   We once had a pastor that believed that but he didn't seem to understand it.  He said he believed that the two witnesses represented the entire church from New Testament times to the second coming, but when I asked him why he believed that, he couldn't answer, Another said you could't take the symbols in Revelation to refer to particular things, just a vague meaning.  As I understand it from those who quote Hendriksen, Revelation is a series of seven prophesies each of them independent and each covering the whole history of the church.  I don't believe that.

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10 minutes ago, Old-Pilgrim said:

I’ve spent a few hours on this topic reading and listening, and I don’t believe there was a full Pre-Christian Old Testament in Greek and if there was the column in the Hexapla Didn’t contain a copy of it, and the Apostles nor the NT writers and certainly Christ never quoted from it. I mean can you just imagine that God incarnated and visited the earth to redeem mankind and found that the ‘jots tittles’ were lost because all he could find to use was a poorly translated corrupt Greek translation of the Bible? What kind of God do the critical scholars imagine in their hearts?

When Scholars say that the Apostles quoted the Greek, they say this because they never quoted the Hebrew and at times their quotes resembled the Hexapla, (which was compiled about 200AD) or was it the Hexapla which resembled their quotes? (I think so) just like if I was witnessing the Gospel to you and I said, ‘it says in John that you need to be born again…’, when in actual fact in the AV it says ‘Ye must be born again’, the reason my ‘quote’ is different, isn’t because I quoted some other version which you haven’t yet come across, no it is because I was trying to make a point about the teaching, I wasn’t trying to give you an exact quote, similarly The New Testament writers and the Apostles were using their Hebrew Scripture and their knowledge from it to teach the people. A plain reading of scripture will reveal this to anyone, there isn’t even any need to know what corrupt translations are extant.

Heb 2:6 But one in a certain place testified, saying, What is man, that thou art mindful of him? or the son of man, that thou visitest him?

Paul could obviously speak Hebrew, and the Jews could understand him, as you would expect, Jesus Spoke Hebrew when speaking to Saul, Ac 21:40, Ac 26:14

If Paul or any of the other Jewish converts were writing an epistle to Gentiles, he would not need to use a Greek translation, he would simply write it in Greek himself, doing his own translation when ‘quoting’ the Hebrew Scripture. This is why NT quotes sometimes aren’t exactly like the Septuagint nor are they exactly like the Hebrew scarce

Flavius Josephus fully defected to the Roman side and was granted Roman citizenship. He became an advisor and friend of Vespasian's son Titus, serving as his translator when Titus led the Siege of Jerusalem, which resulted—when the Jewish revolt did not surrender—in the city's destruction and the looting and destruction of Herod's Temple (Second Temple).

On Josephus, just so we have an idea what sort of Historian he was,  On his work which talks about this Septuagint ‘‘Josephus omitted certain accounts in the Jewish narrative and even added a Hellenistic "glaze" to his work. For example, the "Song of the Sea" sung by Moses and the people of Israel after their deliverance at the Red Sea is completely omitted in Josephus' text.[5] He does mention, however, that Moses composed a song to God in hexameter—a rather unusual (and Greek) metrical scheme for an ancient Hebrew.[6] Josephus also writes that Abraham taught science to the Egyptians, who in turn taught the Greeks, and that Moses set up a senatorial priestly aristocracy, which like Rome resisted monarchy. Thus, in an attempt to make the Jewish history more palatable to his Greco-Roman audience, the great figures of the biblical stories are presented as ideal philosopher-leaders.’’ Josephus wasn’t so much a Historian as a propaganda minister. So we should not let such characters destort our understanding of the Scriptures of Truth.

I am not saying anyone in the bible used it, just that it existed.   In the Romans, Josephus was supporting the legtimate government.  The temple was destroyed because God ordained it.

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On Wednesday, March 02, 2016 at 0:34 AM, Old-Pilgrim said:

Hello John 81, I did reply to your question last night, but it seems to have been lost, I will try again next time if I don't forget.

 

On Tuesday, March 01, 2016 at 0:59 AM, John81 said:

What end-times view do you hold to? That makes a big difference in how a person sees these things.

There are some who believe Christianity will spread strongly around the world and then Christ will return. Those who hold to the pre-trib rapture view see a world heading into great turmoil, the rapture of Christians, the time of tribulation and at the final battle the saints in heaven will join Christ as He defeats the devil and his followers.

Our call today is to grow in Christlikeness, to spread the Gospel, make disciples, and be found living right in the Lord when He comes for us.

Hello John 81, I agree that ‘Our call today is to grow in Christlikeness, to spread the Gospel, make disciples, and be found living right in the Lord when He comes for us’, and perhaps also we are to be ‘Casting down imaginations, and every high thing that exalteth itself against the knowledge of God, and [be] bringing into captivity every thought to the obedience of Christ…….’  2Co 10:5  I think Eschatology is one of the most difficult topics in scripture, and that the church has yet a lot to be taught to it, I believe the Spirit will lead us into all truth. I think what we believe is actually more important than what we do.

On the end times I think the most important thing for us to be concerned about is ‘ what will happen next, is Christ going to return for us or, is the Antichrist going to appear and try to deceive us along with the whole world?

I think Antichrist will appear first, I think he will appear as the centre character of a powerful delusion to all those who refuse to receive the love of the truth. This will be a test for any Christians who are on the earth. I think the mark of the beast will be a literal mark, probably with a microdot RFID chip of some sort-  in order to control people through money.

2Th 2:9-11 Even him, whose coming is after the working of Satan with all power and signs and lying wonders, And with all deceivableness of unrighteousness in them that perish; because they received not the love of the truth, that they might be saved. And for this cause God shall send them strong delusion, that they should believe a lie:

I think there will be a Totalitarian Global Government which will emerge as the culmination of the ages due to the spirit and the mystery of iniquity which has been working since the fall to enthrone Satan as God.

Isa 14:13 For thou hast said in thine heart, I will ascend into heaven, I will exalt my throne above the stars of God: I will sit also upon the mount of the congregation, in the sides of the north:

I don’t think Christianity will spread strongly round the world and somehow rule the government, but I think a ‘church of the world will rise to power along with the new world order in order to deceive the people of the earth, this will be the whore, and the Church of Antichrist.

I also believe that the Resurrection started with Christ first and then every believer since then following in his turn.

Joh 5:24 Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that heareth my word, and believeth on him that sent me, hath everlasting life, and shall not come into condemnation; but is passed from death unto life.

Joh 11:24-26 Martha saith unto him, I know that he shall rise again in the resurrection at the last day. Jesus said unto her, I am the resurrection, and the life: he that believeth in me, though he were dead, yet shall he live: And whosoever liveth and believeth in me shall never die. Believest thou this?


Eph 4:8 Wherefore he saith, When he ascended up on high, he led captivity captive, and gave gifts unto men.

What is commonly called the Exodus with Moses leading the Children of Israel out of Egypt (death) is a ‘type’, ‘shadow’ of the real Exodus, I.E. Christ leading the redeemed out of death (earth) into Heaven.

Lu 9:31 Who appeared in glory, and spake of his *decease* which he should accomplish at Jerusalem.

**Strong's Greek Dictionary
1841. exodos
exodus from 1537 and 3598; an exit, i.e. (figuratively) death:--decease, departing.

I guess this is where the early church got the name ‘Exodus’ for the second book of Moses.

The real Exodus is well underway!

I also think it is noteworthy that we have been raised up and seated with Christ in the heavenly places. So if Jesus Christ is right, and we know that He is, that we are never going to die, and we are seated in heaven, then perhaps it is later that we often think, and we already are far above the governments of the world (by faith) and are to be getting ready to fulfill that which is written…

Ps 149:6-9 Let the high praises of God be in their mouth, and a twoedged sword in their hand; To execute vengeance upon the heathen, and punishments upon the people; To bind their kings with chains, and their nobles with fetters of iron; To execute upon them the judgment written: this honour have all his saints. Praise ye the LORD. This is going back to 2Co 10:5  so we are already joined with Christ and are engaged in The Great Battle, it will however become more apparent as time passes and the Church matures, It is all spiritual through prayer and right thinking and right walking should be a proof to the world, not to God and not even to us, my proof that I am saved is the witness of the Spirit, I suppose growing fruit is a witness to others.

I guess the rapture will be a remnant of Israelites right at the end, after the gentiles have come in.

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33 minutes ago, Old-Pilgrim said:

 

Hello John 81, I agree that ‘Our call today is to grow in Christlikeness, to spread the Gospel, make disciples, and be found living right in the Lord when He comes for us’, and perhaps also we are to be ‘Casting down imaginations, and every high thing that exalteth itself against the knowledge of God, and [be] bringing into captivity every thought to the obedience of Christ…….’  2Co 10:5  I think Eschatology is one of the most difficult topics in scripture, and that the church has yet a lot to be taught to it, I believe the Spirit will lead us into all truth. I think what we believe is actually more important than what we do.

On the end times I think the most important thing for us to be concerned about is ‘ what will happen next, is Christ going to return for us or, is the Antichrist going to appear and try to deceive us along with the whole world?

I think Antichrist will appear first, I think he will appear as the centre character of a powerful delusion to all those who refuse to receive the love of the truth. This will be a test for any Christians who are on the earth. I think the mark of the beast will be a literal mark, probably with a microdot RFID chip of some sort-  in order to control people through money.

2Th 2:9-11 Even him, whose coming is after the working of Satan with all power and signs and lying wonders, And with all deceivableness of unrighteousness in them that perish; because they received not the love of the truth, that they might be saved. And for this cause God shall send them strong delusion, that they should believe a lie:

I think there will be a Totalitarian Global Government which will emerge as the culmination of the ages due to the spirit and the mystery of iniquity which has been working since the fall to enthrone Satan as God.

Isa 14:13 For thou hast said in thine heart, I will ascend into heaven, I will exalt my throne above the stars of God: I will sit also upon the mount of the congregation, in the sides of the north:

I don’t think Christianity will spread strongly round the world and somehow rule the government, but I think a ‘church of the world will rise to power along with the new world order in order to deceive the people of the earth, this will be the whore, and the Church of Antichrist.

I also believe that the Resurrection started with Christ first and then every believer since then following in his turn.

Joh 5:24 Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that heareth my word, and believeth on him that sent me, hath everlasting life, and shall not come into condemnation; but is passed from death unto life.

Joh 11:24-26 Martha saith unto him, I know that he shall rise again in the resurrection at the last day. Jesus said unto her, I am the resurrection, and the life: he that believeth in me, though he were dead, yet shall he live: And whosoever liveth and believeth in me shall never die. Believest thou this?


Eph 4:8 Wherefore he saith, When he ascended up on high, he led captivity captive, and gave gifts unto men.

What is commonly called the Exodus with Moses leading the Children of Israel out of Egypt (death) is a ‘type’, ‘shadow’ of the real Exodus, I.E. Christ leading the redeemed out of death (earth) into Heaven.

Lu 9:31 Who appeared in glory, and spake of his *decease* which he should accomplish at Jerusalem.

**Strong's Greek Dictionary
1841. exodos
exodus from 1537 and 3598; an exit, i.e. (figuratively) death:--decease, departing.

I guess this is where the early church got the name ‘Exodus’ for the second book of Moses.

The real Exodus is well underway!

I also think it is noteworthy that we have been raised up and seated with Christ in the heavenly places. So if Jesus Christ is right, and we know that He is, that we are never going to die, and we are seated in heaven, then perhaps it is later that we often think, and we already are far above the governments of the world (by faith) and are to be getting ready to fulfill that which is written…

Ps 149:6-9 Let the high praises of God be in their mouth, and a twoedged sword in their hand; To execute vengeance upon the heathen, and punishments upon the people; To bind their kings with chains, and their nobles with fetters of iron; To execute upon them the judgment written: this honour have all his saints. Praise ye the LORD. This is going back to 2Co 10:5  so we are already joined with Christ and are engaged in The Great Battle, it will however become more apparent as time passes and the Church matures, It is all spiritual through prayer and right thinking and right walking should be a proof to the world, not to God and not even to us, my proof that I am saved is the witness of the Spirit, I suppose growing fruit is a witness to others.

I guess the rapture will be a remnant of Israelites right at the end, after the gentiles have come in.

Wow friend,

You just a big ole goulash of everything, ain't ya?

I am joking, really but what you posted is not the easiest shot group to follow.

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21 hours ago, wretched said:

Wow friend,

You just a big ole goulash of everything, ain't ya?

I am joking, really but what you posted is not the easiest shot group to follow.

:D Hee Hee, I guess not, I could just say I probably would not go along with any of the systematic view points which I have heard, and I don't have a nicely rounded off theology on the topic of my own. There are some scriptural difficulties with some of my views, but there are also scriptural difficulties with other Christians end times views. John 5:24 is where I use as a foundational reference, and build from there, we have passed from death to life, we have the inner man which is a new creature and is never going to die, this might be our spiritual body, we are not going to die but rather we are going to exit and put off the body of this death,  Eph 5:14 Wherefore he saith, Awake thou that sleepest, and arise from the dead, and Christ shall give thee light. the verse on 'captivity captive' comes from the psalms and carries the idea of a chain of captives, there is a reference in the psalm abut Exits from death, Ps 68:20 He that is our God is the God of salvation; and unto GOD the Lord belong the *issues* from death.

**Strong's Hebrew Dictionary
towtsa'ah to-tsaw-aw'
or totsaah {to-tsaw-aw'}; from 3318; (only in plural collective) exit, i.e. (geographical) boundary, or (figuratively) deliverance, (actively) source:--border(-s), going(-s) forth (out), issues, outgoings.

As far as I can see most scriptures would point to the resurrection having started when Christ rose and that he led [and is leading] captivity captive. When He rose some of the bodies of the saints rose and came out of their tombs, not all saints just many, my guess is that these would have been those who had most recently died, and would have been a wittiness to the power of God and to the fact of the resurrection having started, just as Christ had taught, Mt 27:52-53 And the graves were opened; and many bodies of the saints which slept arose, and came out of the graves after his resurrection, and went into the holy city, and appeared unto many.

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6 minutes ago, John81 said:

That's an interesting view. Is this something you came to on your own or are there others who lean towards this?

Most of it on my own as far as that is possible, although I did hear a woman speaker once who seemed to hold a similar vie,w. it was a small meeting so i sort of quizzed her a little and she in return quizzed me, and we were thinking alike. some of these scriptures give partial insight, but at the same time raise more questions, sometimes theology tries to minimize the questions in order to come up with a complete theology.

Edited by Old-Pilgrim

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3 minutes ago, Old-Pilgrim said:

Most of it on my own as far as that is possible, although I did hear a woman speaker once who seemed to hold a similar vie,w. it was a small meeting so i sort of quizzed her a little and she in return quizzed me, and we were thinking alike.

Thanks. I don't know if I've ever heard anyone with a view even remotely like this one. If you have any more detail to add I'll look it over.

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Just now, John81 said:

Thanks. I don't know if I've ever heard anyone with a view even remotely like this one. If you have any more detail to add I'll look it over.

Ok I'll have a look and if I have anything else I will try to post it before the weekend.

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On Tuesday, March 08, 2016 at 0:12 AM, John81 said:

Thanks. I don't know if I've ever heard anyone with a view even remotely like this one. If you have any more detail to add I'll look it over.

Hello John, I've been looking over some notes and scripture, and I've probably posted most of the best verses on the topic already, I think some of the things take pondering more than searching, but ill try posting here what I've got. When Scripture talks about Christ's coming, the Greek word used seems to mean 'prescience', and he is coming in great power, we might be standing on earth looking up (very exited) but we will also be with the LORD in heaven as part of the cloud, and so when he appears, we also will appear with him. Col 3:4 When Christ, who is our life, shall appear, then shall ye also appear with him in glory. And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.

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I think if this view were right, earth would need to be the first death.
We were dead
Mt 4:16 The people which sat in darkness saw great light; and to them which sat in the region and shadow of death light is sprung up.
Ro 7:24 O wretched man that I am! who shall deliver me from the body of this death?

We are now raised to life
Joh 11:25 Jesus said unto her, I am the resurrection, and the life: he that believeth in me, though he were dead, yet shall he live:
Joh 11:26 And whosoever liveth and believeth in me shall never die. Believest thou this?
Joh 5:24 Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that heareth my word, and believeth on him that sent me, hath everlasting life, and shall not come into condemnation; but is passed from death unto life.
Joh 5:25 Verily, verily, I say unto you, The hour is coming, and now is, when the dead shall hear the voice of the Son of God: and they that hear shall live.
Joh 5:28 Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice,
 

The Time.

Da 12:2 And many of them that sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake, some to everlasting life, and some to shame and everlasting contempt. Da 12:4 But thou, O Daniel, shut up the words, and seal the book, even to the time of the end..

Re 22:10 And he saith unto me, Seal not the sayings of the prophecy of this book: for the time is at hand.

Joh 5:29 And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation.

The hour is coming, and now is’ I take this to mean that the hour had just then started, also in Revelation there are at least two separate resurrections, one of the wicked and one of the righteous. Re 20:5-6
 
Eph 2:6 And hath raised us up together, and made us sit together in heavenly places in Christ Jesus:
Col 2:12 Buried with him in baptism, wherein also ye are risen with him through the faith of the operation of God, who hath raised him from the dead.
Eph 5:14 Wherefore he saith, Awake thou that sleepest, and arise from the dead, and Christ shall give thee light.

So at close range we have a lot of verses which talk about the dead passing into life, this is when we receive eternal life, after that we first believed, we have heard the voice of God and have come forth into the light of the day of the Lord.

Then there is the theme of Christ descending into the lower parts of the earth in order to set the spirits free from the belly of the earth (Shoel, Hades, or Hell) depending on what language we use. Old Testament saints all went down into ‘sheol’ after they died. Apart from Enoch and Elijah, nether of whom died. To understand that the saints of old were in hades (hell) is necessary when considering some of the other scriptures on this and also on other more important topics. (hell is a big topic in itself)

Then we have a big picture.
Eph 4:8 Wherefore he saith, When he ascended up on high, he led captivity captive, and gave gifts unto men.
Eph 4:9 (Now that he ascended, what is it but that he also descended first into the lower parts of the earth?
Eph 4:10 He that descended is the same also that ascended up far above all heavens, that he might fill all things.)
Eph 4:11 And he gave some, apostles; and some, prophets; and some, evangelists; and some, pastors and teachers;

This covers Christ from Glory down to the center of the earth and back to Glory, towing us with Him, but most of the details aren't mentioned.

Re 20:12 And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is the book of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works.
Re 20:13 And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works.

I think both passages are about the whole church age. Again most details are not mentioned, I think this covers The Judgment on earth and the saved being found in the book of life of the Lamb.

Heb 11:39 And these all, having obtained a good report through faith, received not the promise: Heb 11:40 God having provided some better thing for us, that they without us should not be made perfect.)

(Talking about ‘more questions’, notice Christ has just come victorious from the lower parts of the earth and is giving Apostles and Teachers as gifts.

1Cor 15 is interesting, is it talking about the new birth or the resurrection from the dead, or both? (sometimes I wish I didn’t have to go to work..)

1Co 15:20 But now is Christ risen from the dead, and become the firstfruits of them that slept.
1Co 15:21 For since by man came death, by man came also the resurrection of the dead.
1Co 15:22 For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive.

1Co 15:23 But every man in his own *order*: Christ the firstfruits; #afterward# they that are Christ's at his coming.
**tagma tag'-mah
from 5021; something orderly in arrangement (a troop), i.e. (figuratively) a series or succession:--order.
##epeita ep'-i-tah
from 1909 and 1534; thereafter:--after that(-ward), then.
This again sounds like an exodus type procession, this same idea comes up in Hebrews somewhere.

I think this verse 23 could be meant as Tyndale translated it, with ‘then’ rather than ‘afterward’, for I don’t think a long period of time in necessarily implied, but rather an order of events, or individual souls joining the exodus.

1Co 15:23 and every man in his awne order. The fyrst is Christ ‘then’ they yt are Christis at his commynge.

1Co 15:35 But some man will say, How are the dead raised up? and with what body do they come?
1Co 15:36 Thou fool, that which thou sowest is not quickened, except it die:
1Co 15:37 And that which thou sowest, thou sowest not that body that shall be, but bare grain, it may chance of wheat, or of some other grain:
1Co 15:38 But God giveth it a body as it hath pleased him, and to every seed his own body.

1Co 15:51 Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed,
1Co 15:52 In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.

So when we are Born Again we leave Egypt, now we are in the desert, when we put off the body of this death we will find that faith gives way to sight, we will see what is, I guess we will be part of the great cloud of witnesses, the clouds of heaven behind our LORD as he comes to Judge the earth.

Heb 12:1 Wherefore seeing we also are compassed about with so great a cloud of witnesses, let us lay aside every weight, and the sin which doth so easily beset us, and let us run with patience the race that is set before us,
Heb 12:22 But ye are come unto mount Sion, and unto the city of the living God, the heavenly Jerusalem, and to an innumerable company of angels,
Heb 12:23 To the general assembly and church of the firstborn, which are written in heaven, and to God the Judge of all, and to the spirits of just men made perfect,

 

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Other interesting Scriptures, perhaps more on Hades, but the resurrection is from death and Hades and the sea. Where exactly is hell, is the dust of the ground synonymous with man of the dust as far as geography goes?

Job 19:25 For I know that my redeemer liveth, and that he shall stand at the latter day upon the earth:
Job 19:26 And though after my skin worms destroy this body, yet in my flesh shall I see God:
Job 19:27 Whom I shall see for myself, and mine eyes shall behold, and not another; though my reins be consumed within me.

Ps 139:13+15 For Thou--Thou hast possessed my reins, Thou dost cover me in my mother's belly… My substance was not hid from Thee, When I was made in secret, Curiously wrought in the lower part of earth.

Lu 16:22 `And it came to pass, that the poor man died, and that he was carried away by the messengers to the bosom of Abraham--and the rich man also died, and was buried;
Lu 16:23 and in the hades having lifted up his eyes, being in torments, he doth see Abraham afar off, and Lazarus in his bosom,

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That's a lot to try and take in. Thank you for putting all that forth.

I'll ask about a few points I'm not clear on.

What is your view of our actual physical death? How does that fit in?

Do you believe there is no actual burning hell?

I'm not sure what you mean by we may be here seeing Jesus return but we may be with Him in the clouds at the same time...?

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On Sunday, February 14, 2016 at 2:45 AM, John81 said:

As the OP indicates, I'm referring to those who hold a pre-trib rapture view. The predominate pre-trib view on the issue I raised is changing, which is why I asked the question.

Hello John 81 This might be way out there, but it could be 'the times were in', while on the one hand we have ‘strong delusion..‘ 2Th 2:11 and so we are told,  ‘Take heed that no man deceive you. Mt 24:4 ‘..if it were possible, they shall deceive the very elect.’ Mt 24:24,

there is also the other side of things,

Mal 4:2 But unto you that fear my name shall the Sun of righteousness arise with healing in his wings; and ye shall go forth, and grow up as calves of the stall.
Joh 16:13 Howbeit when he, the Spirit of truth, is come, he will guide you into all truth: …and he will shew you things to come.
2Pe 1:19 We have also a more sure word
of prophecy; whereunto ye do well that ye take heed, as unto a light that shineth in a dark place, until the day dawn, and the day star arise in your hearts:

‘Holding to sound doctrine’, in only good if your doctrine is sound in the first place, other wise it is more important to grow in the faith and in the knowledge of Christ in order to find sound doctrine, much of the error is subtle. Ever since the reformation the enemy has been coming back at the Church, much of the so called reformed theology is so bad that people might not even get saved, or Christians will be hindered by it.

2Pe 3:18 But grow in grace, and in the knowledge of our Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ. Till we all come in the unity of the faith, and of the knowledge of the Son of God, unto a perfect man, unto the measure of the stature of the fulness of Christ: Eph 4:13

So hopefully many Christians who hold to false doctrine which war against the faith, will find grace and light to let them go and so grow in Christ.

But we need the Holy Spirit as Teacher.

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16 minutes ago, John81 said:

That's a lot to try and take in. Thank you for putting all that forth.

I'll ask about a few points I'm not clear on.

What is your view of our actual physical death? How does that fit in?

Do you believe there is no actual burning hell?

I'm not sure what you mean by we may be here seeing Jesus return but we may be with Him in the clouds at the same time...?

Our physical death, our dust returns to dust, but after the suffering whether it be much or little we are with the Lord.

Well to be Honest, I think this whole earth will be cast down to hell, at the end of every 'day' and the smoke of their 'TORMENT' will rise for ever and ever, and the lost men of the world will spring up like grass in the morning and will have their backs bent for ever, chasing the wind and lamenting their lot day and night, and the everlasting gospel will be just that, and the everlasting Victory will forevermore outweigh death. To the increase of His Kingdom their will be no end. There sure is actual fire burning actual flesh, if you Google or Bing it you will find it,  but then the poor soul dies, the fire in Revelation is the tormented soul which gives off the smoke. I believe earth goes on forever, something like this. Ecc 3:14 and the gospel train goes out every year, just like their is a harvest every year, if the stars teach us anything about seasons, it is this, they go on, and on.... But I'm not entirely set in my views on any of these topics.

Being on earth and in heaven at the same time, Jesus at times said he was in the bosom of the father, and was both in heaven and on earth, I think we are being poured out like water into a vessel which is already in heaven, or rather rising like smoke as an offering, but our spiritual will increase and our natural will decrease, like the psalmist put it, Ps 139:18 ...when I awake, I am still with thee, this could mean after he dies.

But I shall put my hard hat on now as I anticipate many hard objects flying my way including the proverbial kitchen sink... :blink:

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3 minutes ago, Old-Pilgrim said:

Our physical death, our dust returns to dust, but after the suffering whether it be much or little we are with the Lord.

Well to be Honest, I think this whole earth will be cast down to hell, at the end of every 'day' and the smoke of their 'TORMENT' will rise for ever and ever, and the lost men of the world will spring up like grass in the morning and will have their backs bent for ever, chasing the wind and lamenting their lot day and night, and the everlasting gospel will be just that, and the everlasting Victory will forevermore outweigh death. To the increase of His Kingdom their will be no end. There sure is actual fire burning actual flesh, if you Google or Bing it you will find it,  but then the poor soul dies, the fire in Revelation is the tormented soul which gives off the smoke. I believe earth goes on forever, something like this. Ecc 3:14 and the gospel train goes out every year, just like their is a harvest every year, if the stars teach us anything about seasons, it is this, they go on, and on.... But I'm not entirely set in my views on any of these topics.

Being on earth and in heaven at the same time, Jesus at times said he was in the bosom of the father, and was both in heaven and on earth, I think we are being poured out like water into a vessel which is already in heaven, or rather rising like smoke as an offering, but our spiritual will increase and our natural will decrease, like the psalmist put it, Ps 139:18 ...when I awake, I am still with thee, this could mean after he dies.

But I shall put my hard hat on now as I anticipate many hard objects flying my way including the proverbial kitchen sink... :blink:

Your interpretations are definitely, how shall I say? "private". I cannot follow much if any of it to be honest friend.

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