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John81

Rapture and Anti-Christ

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4 minutes ago, beameup said:

Daniel's Prophecy is the key.  It lays out a 490 year program, and these can be verified by the Bible and archaeological discoveries.  Now, Daniel breaks everything down into "weeks" of years.  The last "week" is the Tribulation, however, the last 1/2  (3 1/2 yrs) is the "Day of the Lord", "Day of Wrath", "Great Tribulation", "Jacob's trouble" Jeremiah 30:7 

Where in Daniel's 70 weeks does it say the last week is the tribulation? I doesn't of course.

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9 minutes ago, Invicta said:

No you don't understand.  The abomination of tribulation was the Roman armies surrounding Jerusalem as Luke tells us.

Luke 21: 20 ¶  And when ye shall see Jerusalem compassed with armies, then know that the desolation thereof is nigh.
Daniel refers to this: Antiochus returned to attack Egypt and the Roman fleet had got there and the Roman ambassador confronted Antiochus and drew a line in the sand (you may have heard of that expression) telling him that if he crossed that line he would be at war with Rome.

Daniel 11:29  At the time appointed he shall return, and come toward the south; but it shall not be as the former, or as the latter. 30  For the ships of Chittim shall come against him: therefore he shall be grieved, and return, and have indignation against the holy covenant: so shall he do; he shall even return, and have intelligence with them that forsake the holy covenant. 31  And arms shall stand on his part, and they shall pollute the sanctuary of strength, and shall take away the daily sacrifice, and they shall place the abomination that maketh desolate.

The arms were the Roman arms, They they were the Romans Antiochus did not make the sactuary desolate as did the Romans.  Josephus gives only two desolations, the first by the Babyloniand and the second by Rome.  "They" were the Romans Antiochus was not a "They" but a "He".

 


 
 

Like I said, the Romans never committed the "abomination of desolation".  Each time the Temple is polluted by the presence of Gentiles, there must be a ritual cleansing. The abomination committed by Antiochus in 167 BC required the Temple cleansing and it is recorded.  The Romans simply tore down the Temple in 70AD, they did not "desecrate" it. Now, Antichrists armies will be surrounding Jerusalem, and the residents are informed to flee the city.  The Antichrist also sets himself up in the Holy of Holies to be worshipped as God.

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14 hours ago, beameup said:

The "Abomination of Desolation" occurred in 167 B.C., so when Jesus mentions this it has already occurred and his audience knew exactly what he was talking about.  They also knew that he was speaking of yet another "Abomination of Desolation" that would occur in the future.

In 167 B.C. the desecration of the Second Temple (Herod's Temple) by the erection of a Zeus statue in its sacred precincts by Antiochus IV Epiphanes (and sacrificed swine on the altar).  This is referred to by Daniel in chapter 11.   Hanukkah is the celebration of the cleansing of the Temple. And it was at Jerusalem the feast of the dedication [rededication of the Temple following ritual cleansing] and it was winter. John 10:22    The Romans did no such thing.

The FUTURE "Abomination of Desolation" is referred to in Daniel 9:27 & 12:11, 1 Maccabees 1:57 & 6:7, Matthew 24:15-16, Mark 13:14.  Paul refers to this in 2 Thess 2. 

The first "abomination of desolation" is a matter of historical record.  The second has not occurred yet. I do understand.

I didn't think Herod was alive in 167 B.C.

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The command to rebuild Jerusalem and the temple was given by Cyrus.  

Isaiah 44: 26  That confirmeth the word of his servant, and performeth the counsel of his messengers; that saith to Jerusalem, Thou shalt be inhabited; and to the cities of Judah, Ye shall be built, and I will raise up the decayed places thereof:
27  That saith to the deep, Be dry, and I will dry up thy rivers:
28  That saith of Cyrus, He is my shepherd, and shall perform all my pleasure: even saying to Jerusalem, Thou shalt be built; and to the temple, Thy foundation shall be laid.
 

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28 minutes ago, beameup said:

Like I said, the Romans never committed the "abomination of desolation".  Each time the Temple is polluted by the presence of Gentiles, there must be a ritual cleansing. The abomination committed by Antiochus in 167 BC required the Temple cleansing and it is recorded.  The Romans simply tore down the Temple in 70AD, they did not "desecrate" it. Now, Antichrists armies will be surrounding Jerusalem, and the residents are informed to flee the city.  The Antichrist also sets himself up in the Holy of Holies to be worshipped as God.

The word is desolate not desecrate.  The Romans desolated the temple.  It is still desolate today.

Luke 21: 20  And when ye shall see Jerusalem compassed with armies, then know that the desolation thereof is nigh. 

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2 hours ago, beameup said:

This period is covered in Daniel's prophecy in Daniel 9:24-27.  A major work (book) was done on this by Sir Robert Anderson in the 1800s entitled "The Coming Prince".... FACT  http://www.whatsaiththescripture.com/Voice/The.Coming.Prince.html

Sir Robert Anderson (1841-1918) was converted to Christ at the age of nineteen and almost immediately began to preach in his native Dublin where he trained for a legal profession at Trinity College. He became a respected member of the Irish Home Office and an expert on criminal investigation. In 1888, he was summoned to Scotland Yard, London, to serve as Chief of the Criminal Investigation Department, an office he filled with distinction until retirement in 1896. At his retirement, he was knighted by Queen Victoria; and in 1901, King Edward VII made him Knight Commander. In the midst of all his many duties, he managed to gain a profound knowledge of the Bible, preach in various conferences, and write seventeen books.

There are several references in the Bible which relate to 3 1/2 years, which is the time period of the first half of the Tribulation or the second half (Great Tribulation).  Keep in mind that the 360 day "Babylonian" calendar is used and that there were 3 "decrees" concerning the rebuilding of the Temple in Jerusalem (Ezra, Nehemiah) but only the last one meets all the "criteria" of the prophecy.  Calculations can then be made which gives you the exact date when Jesus presented himself as Messiah, by riding into Jerusalem on a donkey. :)  The last part of the prophecy covers the Tribulation period (a shabuwa` or "seven" - ie: 7 years), which ends "the times of the Gentiles" and ushers in the Millennial Kingdom. The Hebrew shabuwa` is the key (ie: "weeks" of years).

I was loaned Anderson's book several years ago and read it and then found I had it on my computer on a  CD entitled The Master Christian Library.  I had to stop using it as it used Adobe Reader and wouldn't work on any version later the Adobe 4.  If I remember correctly Anderson said that Jesus would come back in mid tribulation and also at the end of the tribulation, and perhaps other times as well.  

Edited by Invicta

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3 hours ago, Matthew24 said:

In my humble, unbiased, and correct opinion, there is a shift in doctrine because the view that the saints will never see the antichrist is easily refuted. 

This addresses part of the questions I've put forth. Could you put forth the Scripture which makes it clear the anti-christ will be revealed before the rapture?

To another point you have raised: when you say there is no Scripture proof of a 7 year tribulation, are you of the view there will be a 3 1/2 year tribulation or another view?

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39 minutes ago, John81 said:

This addresses part of the questions I've put forth. Could you put forth the Scripture which makes it clear the anti-christ will be revealed before the rapture?

To another point you have raised: when you say there is no Scripture proof of a 7 year tribulation, are you of the view there will be a 3 1/2 year tribulation or another view?

Yes I am...but as I have already stated. I don't believe it is 3.5 exact....just over 3.5. not sure after that. 

And there was given unto him a mouth speaking great things and blasphemies; and power was given unto him to continue forty and two months.

And he opened his mouth in blasphemy against God, to blaspheme his name, and his tabernacle, and them that dwell in heaven.

And it was given unto him to make war with the saints, and to overcome them: and power was given him over all kindreds, and tongues, and nations.

 

How long, O Lord, holy and true, dost thou not judge and avenge our blood on them that dwell on the earth?

11 And white robes were given unto every one of them; and it was said unto them, that they should rest yet for a little season, until their fellowservants also and their brethren, that should be killed as they were, should be fulfilled.

 

 

Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;

Who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped; so that he as God sitteth in the temple of God, shewing himself that he is God.

 

25 And he shall speak great words against the most High, and shall wear out the saints of the most High, and think to change times and laws: and they shall be given into his hand until a time and times and the dividing of time.

 

There really isn't a clear verse that says that the antichrist will appear before the rapture. It is only revealed in the chronology of the verses. For example:  Revelation And after these things I saw four angels standing on the four corners of the earth, holding the four winds of the earth, that the wind should not blow on the earth, nor on the sea, nor on any tree.

Who else would the antichrist make war with if there is only unsaved people here? lol

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6 hours ago, John81 said:

What I didn't want at all in this thread was the constant distraction of this, that and the other end time view being presented as an alternative to the pre-trib rapture view. What I was, and still am looking for, is help from those who do hold a pre-trib rapture view (or even a mid-trib rapture view if such pertains to the question at hand).

What position do pre-trib rapture folks here believe to be the Bible truth with regards to when the anti-christ will be revealed. Do you believe the anti-christ will not be revealed until after the rapture, as seems to be what most believed at one time and what I was taught early on, or do you believe the anti-christ will be revealed prior to the rapture so Christians will know who he is?

Brother John,

I am not certain that I wish to engage with the "this, that and the other end time view" controversy that has been happening in this thread.  However, I did wish to answer you question concerning what my position is, being a pre-tribulational rapturist.  I would hold the following "order" of events:

1.  The "mystery of iniquity" being "already" at work. (2 Thessalonians 2:7)

1.  The "falling away." (2 Thessalonians 2:3)

2.  "He who now letteth [withholdeth]" being "taken out of the way." (2 Thessalonians 2:6-8)  (Note: I believe that this one who withholds must be a singular individual (as per the singular pronoun "he") who is empowered by God to hold back the power of iniquity in the world.  As such, I believe that this One is God the Holy Spirit specifically in His role as the permanent Indweller of the New Testament believers of the New Testament church.  Even so, I believe that this will occur at the "our gathering together" unto Christ through the "catching-up," as per 1 Thessalonians 4:13-18.)  (Note 2: I further believe that when the Holy Spirit is "taken out of the way," He will still be present to convict the hearts of unbelievers on the earth thereafter, but that He will no longer permanently indwell believers thereafter.)

2.  The revealing of "that man of sin," "the son of perdition." (2 Thessalonians 2:3)  (Note: I believe that this revealing will occur specifically by the act wherein the "man of sin" will "confirm the covenant with many for one week," as per Daniel 9:27.)

3.  The "day of Christ." (2 Thessalonians 2:2-3)  (Note: I believe that this "day of Christ" is "the great day of His wrath," as per Revelation 6:16-17, that is -- the seven year period of God's judgment upon the whole earth that is commonly called the Tribulation Period.)

4.  The "man of sin" sitting "in the temple of God, shewing himself that he is God," employing "the working of Satan with all power and signs and lying wonders, and with all deceivableness of unrighteousness in them that perish." (2 Thessalonians 2:4, 9-12)  (Note: I believe that this will occur at the mid-point of the seven year Tribulation Period, whereat the "man of sin" will "cause the sacrifice and the oblation to cease, and for the overspreading of abomination" will "make it desolate," as per Daniel 9:27.)  (Note 2: I further believe that this is time at which the Lord God will send forth the "strong delusion," wherein He will cause the lost of the world to believe the lie of the "man of sin" that he is god, as per 2 Thessalonians 2:11-12.)

5.  The "man of sin" being consumed and destroyed "with the brightness" of Christ's Second Coming. (2 Thessalonians 2:8)
 

7 hours ago, John81 said:

Along these lines, does anyone know why there is a shift from the one view to the other?

Concerning this question, I cannot honestly answer it because I myself have not encountered this "shift."

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8 hours ago, John81 said:

What position do pre-trib rapture folks here believe to be the Bible truth with regards to when the anti-christ will be revealed. Do you believe the anti-christ will not be revealed until after the rapture, as seems to be what most believed at one time and what I was taught early on, or do you believe the anti-christ will be revealed prior to the rapture so Christians will know who he is?

Along these lines, does anyone know why there is a shift from the one view to the other?

John81,

I do not see any scriptural teaching that the Christians in the church age will know who the anti-christ is. Please see Pastor Markles above post on the matter as I agree with him and he wrote an better answer than I could write.

To me, and the churches that support me as a missionary, I do not see a shift at all. From what I see, this shift is coming from folks that are pouring the internet with this thinking. For example: Pastor Steven Anderson, brother Kent Hovind, other men who want to be considered IFB, and a multitude of other internet theologians are causing this shift. 

 

8 hours ago, Matthew24 said:

If we all take the bible literally except for when it isn't obviously being figurative then it should be easy to clearly show me a verse that says the tribulation is 7 years.  This is one of the lies that has been taken as a fact by 99% of churches. It isn't found in scripture. Probably shouldn't call it a lie. IMHO it is false that has been believed by most. We are naive.

Matthew24,

You, Invicta, and the other folks who do not believe that the Tribulation Period as depicted is 7 years in length ignore the plain teaching of Daniel 9:27. Pastor Markle proved without a shadow of a doubt the the Tribulation Period is 7 years. Both you and Invicta ignore this inspired scriptual knowledge and want everything said your way. The day you and Invicta can properly believe, correctly interpret scripture with scripture and learn how to rightly divide the scriptures, is the day you will see it.  

6 hours ago, Invicta said:

Where in Daniel's 70 weeks does it say the last week is the tribulation? I doesn't of course.

Invicta,

Daniel 9:24-27 says seven years. Pastor Markle already proved that the number of years that cover the Tribulation Period aas depicted in Revelation chapter 6-19 is seven years in his Daniel 9:27 debate with Covenanter. Just because it does not say it the way you want to say it does not change the truth.

6 hours ago, Invicta said:

Luke 21: 20 ¶ And when ye shall see Jerusalem compassed with armies, then know that the desolation thereof is nigh. 

How could the disciples see it if it was some centuries in the future?

The Lord Jesus was speaking to those Jews alive at the time of the fulfillment of the prophecy.

4 hours ago, John81 said:

This addresses part of the questions I've put forth. Could you put forth the Scripture which makes it clear the anti-christ will be revealed before the rapture?

To another point you have raised: when you say there is no Scripture proof of a 7 year tribulation, are you of the view there will be a 3 1/2 year tribulation or another view?

John81,

According to a close study of the prophecy of Daniel 9:24-27 the time of the Tribulation Period as depicted in Revelation chapter 6-19 is seven years.

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19 minutes ago, Alan said:

Invicta,

Daniel 9:24-27 says seven years. Pastor Markle already proved that the number of years that cover the Tribulation Period aas depicted in Revelation chapter 6-19 is seven years in his Daniel 9:27 debate with Covenanter. Just because it does not say it the way you want to say it does not change the truth.

6 hours ago, Invicta said:

Luke 21: 20And when ye shall see Jerusalem compassed with armies, then know that the desolation thereof is nigh. 

How could the disciples see it if it was some centuries in the future?

The Lord Jesus was speaking to those Jews alive at the time of the fulfillment of the prophecy.


No he wasn't, he was speaking to those who were listening to him.  You are distorting scripture.

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29 minutes ago, Invicta said:


No he wasn't, he was speaking to those who were listening to him.  You are distorting scripture.

Invicta,

You are the one distorting scripture in order to try and disprove the literal events as prophesied by the Old Testament prophets and revealed in the book of Revelation.

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Pastor Markle and Alan I thank both of you for your input which has been helpful. From what I learned in that Assembly of God church I was saved in through every Baptist church I've spent time in and been a member of is the same as you both present.

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8 hours ago, Matthew24 said:

So you believe Daniel is clearer than Revelation?   Get in the NT. The Day of the Lord, Day of wrath = The second coming.   Do a study of the "Day of the Lord" and look at the similarities between Matthew 24, Rev 6 etc.   There isn't any doubt....Gods wrath is poured out on man after the 2nd coming....to end the week. :)

The Tribulation deals with Israel, in that it is the "testing" of Israel (ie: Time of Jacob's Trouble), and at the end, only a "remnant" will be saved.  You could view the Tribulation as a "transition period" between the Body of Christ (Age of Grace) and the Millennial Kingdom with Jesus Messiah on the Throne, in Jerusalem.  Jesus mentions "Daniel the Prophet" and the "Abomination of Desolation" twice - I think we should therefore "pay attention".   Once you have the "key" passage, then you can use other verses to "piece together" the 70th Week of Daniel (ie: 7 year Tribulation). 

PS: I believe the verse you referenced is the "Second Coming", which occurs at the end of the 70th Week of Daniel.  It's really not that complicated.

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8 hours ago, Invicta said:

I didn't think Herod was alive in 167 B.C.

Not everyone recognizes "Nehemiah's Temple".  Herod simply "embellished" Nehemiah's Temple.  To be correct, it should be called "The Second Temple".  The "Third Temple" could be erected any day now, within the City of David, as the City of David is under Israeli control.  The Temple Institute has already trained the Kohen (Cohen) and made all the priestly garments.  As well, all of the furnishings and instruments of the Temple have been created (this includes the ashes of the red heifer).

8 hours ago, Invicta said:

Where in Daniel's 70 weeks does it say the last week is the tribulation? I doesn't of course.

You have to do your "homework", like Sherlock Holmes (with the help of the Holy Spirit, of course)

Details.jpg

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8 hours ago, Invicta said:

The command to rebuild Jerusalem and the temple was given by Cyrus.  

Isaiah 44: 26  That confirmeth the word of his servant, and performeth the counsel of his messengers; that saith to Jerusalem, Thou shalt be inhabited; and to the cities of Judah, Ye shall be built, and I will raise up the decayed places thereof:
27  That saith to the deep, Be dry, and I will dry up thy rivers:
28  That saith of Cyrus, He is my shepherd, and shall perform all my pleasure: even saying to Jerusalem, Thou shalt be built; and to the temple, Thy foundation shall be laid.
 

Nope.  Again, you have to look for the "small details", like Sherlock Holmes.  The "key" is: which decree mentions rebuilding the "walls and gates"???

Details.jpg

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The debate itself, over the timing of the revealing of the anti-christ compared to the timing of the rapture isn't new. I recall this issue coming up when Gorbechev came to rule the Soviet Union. There were some claiming the birth mark on his forehead resembled a dragon and was a clear sign Gorbechev was the anti-christ. There was debate back and forth as to whether pre-rapture Christians could know who the anti-christ was during that time, but the predominate view was that the anti-christ would remain unknown prior to the rapture.

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6 minutes ago, John81 said:

The debate itself, over the timing of the revealing of the anti-christ compared to the timing of the rapture isn't new. I recall this issue coming up when Gorbechev came to rule the Soviet Union. There were some claiming the birth mark on his forehead resembled a dragon and was a clear sign Gorbechev was the anti-christ. There was debate back and forth as to whether pre-rapture Christians could know who the anti-christ was during that time, but the predominate view was that the anti-christ would remain unknown prior to the rapture.

Brother John,

Probably??? the difficulty for many is that the specific manner by which the "man of sin" is to be "revealed" is not presented in 2 Thessalonians 2.  Therefore, individuals begin to speculate as to the manner; and in that speculation they find "things" within the current events of the time.  However, I believe that the specific manner for the revelation of the "man of sin" IS provided in Scripture in Daniel 9:27 -- "And he [that is -- "the prince that shall come" from verse 26] shall confirm the covenant with many [among Daniel's people, the children of Israel] for one week."  I believe when that event occurs, then the seven year Tribulation Period (the seventieth week of years) has begun.

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8 minutes ago, Pastor Scott Markle said:

Brother John,

Probably??? the difficulty for many is that the specific manner by which the "man of sin" is to be "revealed" is not presented in 2 Thessalonians 2.  Therefore, individuals begin to speculate as to the manner; and in that speculation they find "things" within the current events of the time.  However, I believe that the specific manner for the revelation of the "man of sin" IS provided in Scripture in Daniel 9:27 -- "And he [that is -- "the prince that shall come" from verse 26] shall confirm the covenant with many [among Daniel's people, the children of Israel] for one week."  I believe when that event occurs, then the seven year Tribulation Period (the seventieth week of years) has begun.

That aligns with my thinking on this.

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15 hours ago, Invicta said:

Luke 21: 20And when ye shall see Jerusalem compassed with armies, then know that the desolation thereof is nigh. 

How could the disciples see it if it was some centuries in the future?

Quite simply, there will be Jewish "disciples" (believers in Yeshua Messiah) during the Tribulation.  In other words, the passage has some "prophetic" aspects to it.  The Antichrist will have "armies" of the world around Jerusalem prior to the "Second Coming".  So, in some respects "history repeats itself".

BTW, there is a difference between "Abomination" and "Desolation".  The "Abomination" was the pollution of the Holy Place within the Temple, as was the case in 167BC.  "Desolation" would be the destruction of the Temple, as the Romans did in 70AD.  An "abomination which makes desolate" would indicate that Temple rituals had to be totally abandoned (Temple vacated) because of the pollution of the Holy Place by Gentiles. see Dan 11 & 12

[during the Tribulation]  And the serpent cast out of his mouth water as a flood after the woman, that he might cause her to be carried away of the flood. And the earth helped the woman [remnant of Israel], and the earth opened her mouth, and swallowed up the flood which the dragon cast out of his mouth. And the dragon was wroth with the woman [remnant of Israel], and went to make war with the remnant of her seed, which keep the commandments of God, and have the testimony of Jesus Christ. Revelation 12:15-17  These Jewish believers will flee Jerusalem, just like those in 70AD.

 

Edited by beameup

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7 hours ago, Alan said:

Invicta,

You are the one distorting scripture in order to try and disprove the literal events as prophesied by the Old Testament prophets and revealed in the book of Revelation.

Actually when I was in a church that taught that, they actually said that Matthew and Mark were referring to a different event than Luke, the former were speaking of a later event and Luke  was referring to the events by the Romans.

Why would Jesus be referring to something thousands of hears ahead when there was a very close event when Jerusalem was surrounded by armies and the Christians actualy understood His words and abandoned the city?.

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Brethren,

The events of Matthew 24 are depicted in the book of Revelation and are not referring to 70 AD when Titus took Jerusalem. Furthermore, I am not going to get into a philosophical debate why the Lord Jesus referred to the events of the last days as depicted in the book of Revelation and not to the events of 70 AD. I tend to avoid debates as they are endless. I do not ask why Jesus did this and not that as I am not a mind reader. I just love the Book as it is written and just want to discover the Riches contained in the Book.

Alan

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15 hours ago, Alan said:

Matthew24,

You, Invicta, and the other folks who do not believe that the Tribulation Period as depicted is 7 years in length ignore the plain teaching of Daniel 9:27. Pastor Markle proved without a shadow of a doubt the the Tribulation Period is 7 years. Both you and Invicta ignore this inspired scriptual knowledge and want everything said your way. The day you and Invicta can properly believe, correctly interpret scripture with scripture and learn how to rightly divide the scriptures, is the day you will see it.  

Your opinion is not humbled, unbiased, or correct. I respectfully disagree. :D

Obviously I'm extremely unintelligent. Anyone that has the holy spirit living inside of them can see this clear teaching that tribulation is 7 years.

27 And he shall confirm the covenant with many for one week: and in the midst of the week he shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to cease, and for the overspreading of abominations he shall make it desolate, even until the consummation, and that determined shall be poured upon the desolate.

Edited by Matthew24

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36 minutes ago, Matthew24 said:

Your opinion is not humbled, unbiased, or correct. I respectfully disagree. :D

Obviously I'm extremely unintelligent. Anyone that has the holy spirit living inside of them can see this clear teaching that tribulation is 7 years.

27 And he shall confirm the covenant with many for one week: and in the midst of the week he shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to cease, and for the overspreading of abominations he shall make it desolate, even until the consummation, and that determined shall be poured upon the desolate.

Just out of curiosity, are you the Google+ Fisher of Men and Fisher of Men Productions? The information for both is the same. If so, on your accompanying YouTube channel (Fisher of Men Productions), there is a video called "Danielle of Truth and Spirit Mime". If that is your channel, may I ask your reason for posting that video?

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