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John81

Rapture and Anti-Christ

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Daniel 11 describes the "abomination of desolation" which was a historical fact when Antiochus Epiphanes committed the act in the Holy of Holies.  It's recorded in 1 Maccabees.  

Daniel 12 describes the "abomination of desolation" which will be performed by the Antichrist in the Temple in Jerusalem during the Tribulation.  Daniel 12:11

Matt 24:15 [Jesus speaking] When ye therefore shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, stand in the holy place [Holy of Holies], (whoso readeth, let him understand:)

Mark 13:14 [Jesus speaking] But when ye shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, standing where it ought not, (let him that readeth understand,) then let them that be in Judaea flee to the mountains:

You know that you are a "preterist", and as such, all (or most all) prophecies have already been fulfilledPreterism is part-and-parcel with "Replacement Theology".  Do you also reject the Millennium?  How about the Tribulation?  How about the Rapture?  Do you believe that Revelation is all "symbolic"?

Edited by beameup

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29 minutes ago, Matthew24 said:

Only those courageous enough to question everything they have ever been taught can find truth. Most people are cowards, blinded, unwilling to think that they could be wrong. I'm not saying I am enlightened, just humble enough to look at all information with an open mind....and realizing the bible is the final authority. To me the real key is...

1. Scofield bible and it's doctrines 

If you aren't correct on who the elect is, or who are the real jews, you won't be correct in end times prophecy. 

We have been duped into believing in fairy tales.

Please do tell?

What extra revelation is contained in this scofield Bible?

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54 minutes ago, beameup said:

Daniel 11 describes the "abomination of desolation" which was a historical fact when Antiochus Epiphanes committed the act in the Holy of Holies.  It's recorded in 1 Maccabees.  

Daniel 12 describes the "abomination of desolation" which will be performed by the Antichrist in the Temple in Jerusalem during the Tribulation.  Daniel 12:11

Matt 24:15 [Jesus speaking] When ye therefore shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, stand in the holy place [Holy of Holies], (whoso readeth, let him understand:)

No it wasn't.  There is only one abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, and that was still future when Jesus spoke.  Trouble is you don't understand.

Mark 13:14 [Jesus speaking] But when ye shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, standing where it ought not, (let him that readeth understand,) then let them that be in Judea flee to the mountains:  Exactly " then let them that be in Judea flee to the mountains"  shows that the tribulation was local on Judea.

You know that you are a "preterist", and as such, all (or most all) prophecies have already been fulfilled.   

54 minutes ago, beameup said:

 

I am NOT a preterist.  If you ever read my posts when we had preterists on here you see that I disagreed with them, as it be clearly shewn that preterism was invented by the Jesuits as was futurism.  

and as such, all (or most all) prophecies have already been fulfilled."  I am an historicist which is absolutely different from preterism Preterism is part-and-parcel with "Replacement Theology".Well I don't accept replcement theology either  Do you also reject the Millennium?  In have always believed in historic pre millenniumism but the nonsense that you and others post is beginning to make me question if I was correct or not. How about the Tribulation? Which one?  There are several tribulations mentioned in scripture,  And although you keep saying it is for seven years, the only one scripture gives a time for is 10 days.  How about the Rapture? I beiieve that  we will meet the Lord in the air and the descend with him,  Rapture is not a scriture word, I think it was first used by the Irvingites and their Catholic Apostolic Church, at least that is the earliest I have found, but if you can find an earlier ref before say 1825, I will accept that, Do you believe that Revelation is all "symbolic"?  Mostly yes.  Which shows I am not preterist as they are literalists taking the temple to be the pre AD 70 temple..  Whereas I believe in accordance with Peter and Paul's teaching that the temple is the chursh and the book of Revelation is a progressive history of the church and its tribulations throughout history, mainly by your friends the RCC.    

 

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11 minutes ago, Invicta said:

I am NOT a preterist.  If you ever read my posts when we had preterists on here you see that I disagreed with them, as it be clearly shewn that preterism was invented by the Jesuits as was futurism.  

and as such, all (or most all) prophecies have already been fulfilled."  I am an historicist which is absolutely different from preterism Preterism is part-and-parcel with "Replacement Theology".Well I don't accept replcement theology either  Do you also reject the Millennium?  In have always believed in historic pre millenniumism but the nonsense that you and others post is beginning to make me question if I was correct or not. How about the Tribulation? Which one?  There are several tribulations mentioned in scripture,  And although you keep saying it is for seven years, the only one scripture gives a time for is 10 days.  How about the Rapture? I beiieve that  we will meet the Lord in the air and the descend with him,  Rapture is not a scriture word, I think it was first used by the Irvingites and their Catholic Apostolic Church, at least that is the earliest I have found, but if you can find an earlier ref before say 1825, I will accept that, Do you believe that Revelation is all "symbolic"?  Mostly yes.  Which shows I am not preterist as they are literalists taking the temple to be the pre AD 70 temple..  Whereas I believe in accordance with Peter and Paul's teaching that the temple is the chursh and the book of Revelation is a progressive history of the church and its tribulations throughout history, mainly by your friends the RCC.    

 

So historic pre-millennialism means, what? A literal future thousand year reign of Christ, or an allegorical  not-really 1000 years reign of Christ on earth, that started in the first century AD, and has been more than 1000 years and Christ is not reigning on earth and the Devil still is free to tempt the nations and definitely NOT sealed up?

Trinity is not found in the Bible, either, but the idea is, the same as the idea of the 'rapture'.

The problem with taking revelation as mostly symbolic, is that, who, then decides what is really true? Ultimately, it is the individual reader who interprets it, until it occurs, (or in your case, already has).  So very specifically-used terms like "a thousand years" repeated, what, 6 times in Rev 20, seems to make it pretty clear that it means just what it says, (and the words 'thousand years' are both quite literal in meaning and every time they are used, the particular Greek words, mean literally just that). If Satan isn't taken and bound by an angel and cast into a bottomless pit for a thousand years, then just what happens? Seems pretty literal.   I believe the only way we can consider some of revelation MAY be symbolic, is because it is being described by John who is seeing things from heaven, and thus, may be seeing the spiritual powers behind the activities, while on earth, we may perceive them differently. But that's only speculation at best-I don't know that what John sees differs in one iota from how man will see it on earth.

9 minutes ago, Matthew24 said:

LOL. NO, NO, NO revelation. More like heresy.

Like the Gap Heresy, er, theory?

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Like the gap theory, and really I don't have time to go into great detail. I don't believe Scofield Bibles are good, nor do I believe the man was genuine. Just wanted to put that out there. You can research and come to your own conclusion, but my research tells me he's a fraud. Sam Adams has a great sermon series about scofield. 

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4 minutes ago, Ukulelemike said:

So historic pre-millennialism means, what? A literal future thousand year reign of Christ, Yes or an allegorical  not-really 1000 years reign of Christ on earth, that started in the first century AD, and has been more than 1000 years and Christ is not reigning on earth and the Devil still is free to tempt the nations and definitely NOT sealed up?

Trinity is not found in the Bible, either, but the idea is, the same as the idea of the 'rapture'.Rapture is associated with pre tribulationism which is what I have a problem with.

The problem with taking revelation as mostly symbolic, is that, who, then decides what is really true? Ultimately, it is the individual reader who interprets it, until it occurs, (or in your case, already has) Not really, symbols are given throughout scripture and in a number of cases are interpreted. Henry Grattan Guinness wrote a booklet entitled Key to the Apocolypse in which he uses seven divinely interpreted prophecies to show how to interpret the remainder. So very specifically-used terms like "a thousand years" repeated, what, 6 times in Rev 20, seems to make it pretty clear that it means just what it says, (and the words 'thousand years' are both quite literal in meaning and every time they are used, the particular Greek words, mean literally just that). If Satan isn't taken and bound by an angel and cast into a bottomless pit for a thousand years, then just what happens? Seems pretty literal.   I believe the only way we can consider some of revelation MAY be symbolic, is because it is being described by John who is seeing things from heaven, and thus, may be seeing the spiritual powers behind the activities, while on earth, we may perceive them differently. But that's only speculation at best-I don't know that what John sees differs in one iota from how man will see it on earth. Yes I have always believed something like that, that the millennium will be the seventh Millenium being the equivalent af the seven days of creation.  But what has made me look again is John's Gospel.  Where we are told a number of times that the saints will be raised on the Last Day and that the Last Day is also the Day of Judgement.  I cannot reconcile the two at present.  Nothing to do with the a-mils just what I see in scripture.

 .


 
 

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1 hour ago, Invicta said:

I am NOT a preterist.  If you ever read my posts when we had preterists on here you see that I disagreed with them, as it be clearly shewn that preterism was invented by the Jesuits as was futurism.  

and as such, all (or most all) prophecies have already been fulfilled."  I am an historicist which is absolutely different from preterism Preterism is part-and-parcel with "Replacement Theology".Well I don't accept replcement theology either  Do you also reject the Millennium?  In have always believed in historic pre millenniumism but the nonsense that you and others post is beginning to make me question if I was correct or not. How about the Tribulation? Which one?  There are several tribulations mentioned in scripture,  And although you keep saying it is for seven years, the only one scripture gives a time for is 10 days.  How about the Rapture? I beiieve that  we will meet the Lord in the air and the descend with him,  Rapture is not a scriture word, I think it was first used by the Irvingites and their Catholic Apostolic Church, at least that is the earliest I have found, but if you can find an earlier ref before say 1825, I will accept that, Do you believe that Revelation is all "symbolic"?  Mostly yes.  Which shows I am not preterist as they are literalists taking the temple to be the pre AD 70 temple..  Whereas I believe in accordance with Peter and Paul's teaching that the temple is the chursh and the book of Revelation is a progressive history of the church and its tribulations throughout history, mainly by your friends the RCC.    

 

You are an amillennialist. Which is historically the eschatological position of the RCC. It was systematized by Augustine. Talk about being friends with the RCC. At the end of the day you are in essence a preterist since you still take the promises of God to the nation of Israel and place them upon the church. That is Replacement Theology. The result is the same.

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2 hours ago, Matthew24 said:

Like the gap theory, and really I don't have time to go into great detail. I don't believe Scofield Bibles are good, nor do I believe the man was genuine. Just wanted to put that out there. You can research and come to your own conclusion, but my research tells me he's a fraud. Sam Adams has a great sermon series about scofield. 

Could you please back your statement with an explanation?

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4 hours ago, Critical Mass said:

You are an amillennialist. Which is historically the eschatological position of the RCC. It was systematized by Augustine. Talk about being friends with the RCC. At the end of the day you are in essence a preterist since you still take the promises of God to the nation of Israel and place them upon the church. That is Replacement Theology. The result is the same.

There you go just like BeamMeup just giving insults instead of scriptures, 

"Hi, my name is Chester and I'm from Virginia. I'm probably a socially conservative agnostic this point in my life but I am very familiar with fundamentalist teachings. Hope to learn some things from this site."

I don't need any lessons from an agnostic.

Again you have  misrepresented me.

Earlier on I asked beameup   some questions from scripture, but he has failed to answer, anyone else, scriptureal answers please, not insults.


 
 

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ssss

 
 
3 hours ago, MountainChristian said:

Could you please back your statement with an explanation?

Scofield was convicted of fraud and spent some time in jail for the same.  He was a lawyer who defrauded his clients and also his mother in law from her life savings, abandoned his wife and children, etc.

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10 hours ago, Invicta said:

No it wasn't.  There is only one abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, and that was still future when Jesus spoke.  Trouble is you don't understand.

 

The "Abomination of Desolation" occurred in 167 B.C., so when Jesus mentions this it has already occurred and his audience knew exactly what he was talking about.  They also knew that he was speaking of yet another "Abomination of Desolation" that would occur in the future.

In 167 B.C. the desecration of the Second Temple (Herod's Temple) by the erection of a Zeus statue in its sacred precincts by Antiochus IV Epiphanes (and sacrificed swine on the altar).  This is referred to by Daniel in chapter 11.   Hanukkah is the celebration of the cleansing of the Temple. And it was at Jerusalem the feast of the dedication [rededication of the Temple following ritual cleansing] and it was winter. John 10:22    The Romans did no such thing.

The FUTURE "Abomination of Desolation" is referred to in Daniel 9:27 & 12:11, 1 Maccabees 1:57 & 6:7, Matthew 24:15-16, Mark 13:14.  Paul refers to this in 2 Thess 2. 

The first "abomination of desolation" is a matter of historical record.  The second has not occurred yet. I do understand.

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On ‎2016‎年‎2‎月‎14‎日 at 10:45 AM, John81 said:

As the OP indicates, I'm referring to those who hold a pre-trib rapture view. The predominate pre-trib view on the issue I raised is changing, which is why I asked the question.

 

On ‎2016‎年‎2‎月‎15‎日 at 8:49 AM, John81 said:

Interesting that a board filled with many who call themselves pre-trib rapture folks and none have weighed in yet.

 

John81,

May I permit myself to weigh in and then out.

I have never seen the 'Thief in the Night' series in video, TV, or read them nor any work by Hal Lindsey. Furthermore, any work by a Charismatic I consider apostate and am quite perurbed to hear this continual reference and hatred of Scofield. Scofield is mentioned by those folks who despise dispensationailism and the literal interpreation of the book of Revelation. Scofield, and Darby, are both scapegoats to try and portray all of those who believe in Dispensationalism and the Literalist interpratation of Revelation as 'followers of a man.'

Execpt for the fine post by Ukelemike, all of the above posts in this thread are just a re-hash of the same of arguments that I have heard since I have been on OnLine Baptist on several different threads and I personally do not feel the current discussion is fruitful.

I think most of you consider me a pre-trib person. To assure all of the brethren that I have not changed my mind here is a re-cap of Revelation as protrayed by a Bible Believer.

The events of the Book of Revelation are literal events. The few events that are symbolic, or signs, are easily understood by a correct reference  to the appropriate Old Testament scriptures.

A Broad Re-cap of the Book of Revelation

The Second coming of Christ for the church (not with the church), occurs in Revelation 4:1, immediately the Judgment Seat of Christ transpires In Revelation chapter 4 and 5 we see the church saints with their rewards throwing their crowns that they earned at the foot of the LAMB. If a person opens their eyes and just believes what he reads is literal they can see the crowns are from saints that have been rewarded. 

From Revelation chapter 6-19 we have the 7 Year Tribulation Period. At the mid-point the anti-Christ enters the rebuilt Jewish Temple (whether it is on the current Temple Mount or 600 yards away is not relevant). The events prophesied by the Lord Jesus in Mattlew 21 and Luke 21:5-38 is a reference to the Jewish remnant in the 7 Year Tribulation Period. Therefore, these events are future and those that mistakenly place these events at the destruction of Jerusalem in 70 A.D. are in error.

As the times of the Gentiles run its course, and the near the end of the 7 Year Tribulation Period is at hand, the ELECT, literal, nation of Israel, what is left of them, is saved as a nation as prophesied by the Isaiah, Zechariah and Paul the Apostle in Romans 11:25-27 

And, GLORY HALLELUJAH, in Revelation 19:11-21 the Lord Jesus comes back as KING OF KINGS, AND LORD OF LORDS with His church. The Millennial Temple is described as prophesied by the prophet Ezekiel in Ezekiel chapter 40-48 

Here is my link to the study in Revelation where I start the study in Revelation  19: http://www.onlinebaptist.com/home/topic/23115-revelation-chapter-19-22-study/?page=1

In Revelation 20:4-7 the literal 1000 Year Reign of Lord Jesus begins as prophesied by the Old Testament prophets. GLORY HALLELUJAH!

I just wanted to set the record straight that not all of the saints are changing their minds in these periolous last days.

Regards,

Alan

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Thank you Alan, I appreciate your input. What I didn't want at all in this thread was the constant distraction of this, that and the other end time view being presented as an alternative to the pre-trib rapture view. What I was, and still am looking for, is help from those who do hold a pre-trib rapture view (or even a mid-trib rapture view if such pertains to the question at hand).

I don't know what your references to Charismatics or the Scofield Bible have to do with this so I have no comment on either at this point.

What position do pre-trib rapture folks here believe to be the Bible truth with regards to when the anti-christ will be revealed. Do you believe the anti-christ will not be revealed until after the rapture, as seems to be what most believed at one time and what I was taught early on, or do you believe the anti-christ will be revealed prior to the rapture so Christians will know who he is?

Along these lines, does anyone know why there is a shift from the one view to the other?

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16 minutes ago, Alan said:

 

John81,

May I permit myself to weigh in and then out.

I have never seen the 'Thief in the Night' series in video, TV, or read them nor any work by Hal Lindsey. Furthermore, any work by a Charismatic I consider apostate and am quite perurbed to hear this continual reference and hatred of Scofield. Scofield is mentioned by those folks who despise dispensationailism and the literal interpreation of the book of Revelation. Scofield, and Darby, are both scapegoats to try and portray all of those who believe in Dispensationalism and the Literalist interpratation of Revelation as 'followers of a man.'

Execpt for the fine post by Ukelemike, all of the above posts in this thread are just a re-hash of the same of arguments that I have heard since I have been on OnLine Baptist on several different threads and I personally do not feel the current discussion is fruitful.

I think most of you consider me a pre-trib person. To assure all of the brethren that I have not changed my mind here is a re-cap of Revelation as protrayed by a Bible Believer.

The events of the Book of Revelation are literal events. The few events that are symbolic, or signs, are easily understood by a correct reference  to the appropriate Old Testament scriptures.

A Broad Re-cap of the Book of Revelation

The Second coming of Christ for the church (not with the church), occurs in Revelation 4:1, immediately the Judgment Seat of Christ transpires In Revelation chapter 4 and 5 we see the church saints with their rewards throwing their crowns that they earned at the foot of the LAMB. If a person opens their eyes and just believes what he reads is literal they can see the crowns are from saints that have been rewarded. 

From Revelation chapter 6-19 we have the 7 Year Tribulation Period. At the mid-point the anti-Christ enters the rebuilt Jewish Temple (whether it is on the current Temple Mount or 600 yards away is not relevant). The events prophesied by the Lord Jesus in Mattlew 21 and Luke 21:5-38 is a reference to the Jewish remnant in the 7 Year Tribulation Period. Therefore, these events are future and those that mistakenly place these events at the destruction of Jerusalem in 70 A.D. are in error.

As the times of the Gentiles run its course, and the near the end of the 7 Year Tribulation Period is at hand, the ELECT, literal, nation of Israel, what is left of them, is saved as a nation as prophesied by the Isaiah, Zechariah and Paul the Apostle in Romans 11:25-27 

And, GLORY HALLELUJAH, in Revelation 19:11-21 the Lord Jesus comes back as KING OF KINGS, AND LORD OF LORDS with His church. The Millennial Temple is described as prophesied by the prophet Ezekiel in Ezekiel chapter 40-48 

Here is my link to the study in Revelation where I start the study in Revelation  19: http://www.onlinebaptist.com/home/topic/23115-revelation-chapter-19-22-study/?page=1

In Revelation 20:4-7 the literal 1000 Year Reign of Lord Jesus begins as prophesied by the Old Testament prophets. GLORY HALLELUJAH!

I just wanted to set the record straight that not all of the saints are changing their minds in these periolous last days.

Regards,

Alan

If we all take the bible literally except for when it isn't obviously being figurative then it should be easy to clearly show me a verse that says the tribulation is 7 years.  This is one of the lies that has been taken as a fact by 99% of churches. It isn't found in scripture. Probably shouldn't call it a lie. IMHO it is false that has been believed by most. We are naive.

Edited by Matthew24

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26 minutes ago, John81 said:

Thank you Alan, I appreciate your input. What I didn't want at all in this thread was the constant distraction of this, that and the other end time view being presented as an alternative to the pre-trib rapture view. What I was, and still am looking for, is help from those who do hold a pre-trib rapture view (or even a mid-trib rapture view if such pertains to the question at hand).

I don't know what your references to Charismatics or the Scofield Bible have to do with this so I have no comment on either at this point.

What position do pre-trib rapture folks here believe to be the Bible truth with regards to when the anti-christ will be revealed. Do you believe the anti-christ will not be revealed until after the rapture, as seems to be what most believed at one time and what I was taught early on, or do you believe the anti-christ will be revealed prior to the rapture so Christians will know who he is?

Along these lines, does anyone know why there is a shift from the one view to the other?

In my humble, unbiased, and correct opinion, there is a shift in doctrine because the view that the saints will never see the antichrist is easily refuted. 

Edited by Matthew24

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32 minutes ago, Matthew24 said:

If we all take the bible literally except for when it isn't obviously being figurative then it should be easy to clearly show me a verse that says the tribulation is 7 years.  This is one of the lies that has been taken as a fact by 99% of churches. It isn't found in scripture. Probably shouldn't call it a lie. IMHO it is false that has been believed by most. We are naive.

This period is covered in Daniel's prophecy in Daniel 9:24-27.  A major work (book) was done on this by Sir Robert Anderson in the 1800s entitled "The Coming Prince".... FACT  http://www.whatsaiththescripture.com/Voice/The.Coming.Prince.html

Sir Robert Anderson (1841-1918) was converted to Christ at the age of nineteen and almost immediately began to preach in his native Dublin where he trained for a legal profession at Trinity College. He became a respected member of the Irish Home Office and an expert on criminal investigation. In 1888, he was summoned to Scotland Yard, London, to serve as Chief of the Criminal Investigation Department, an office he filled with distinction until retirement in 1896. At his retirement, he was knighted by Queen Victoria; and in 1901, King Edward VII made him Knight Commander. In the midst of all his many duties, he managed to gain a profound knowledge of the Bible, preach in various conferences, and write seventeen books.

There are several references in the Bible which relate to 3 1/2 years, which is the time period of the first half of the Tribulation or the second half (Great Tribulation).  Keep in mind that the 360 day "Babylonian" calendar is used and that there were 3 "decrees" concerning the rebuilding of the Temple in Jerusalem (Ezra, Nehemiah) but only the last one meets all the "criteria" of the prophecy.  Calculations can then be made which gives you the exact date when Jesus presented himself as Messiah, by riding into Jerusalem on a donkey. :)  The last part of the prophecy covers the Tribulation period (a shabuwa` or "seven" - ie: 7 years), which ends "the times of the Gentiles" and ushers in the Millennial Kingdom. The Hebrew shabuwa` is the key (ie: "weeks" of years).

Edited by beameup

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 Seventy weeks are determined upon thy people and upon thy holy city, to finish the transgression, and to make an end of sins, and to make reconciliation for iniquity, and to bring in everlasting righteousness, and to seal up the vision and prophecy, and to anoint the most Holy.

25 Know therefore and understand, that from the going forth of the commandment to restore and to build Jerusalem unto the Messiah the Prince shall be seven weeks, and threescore and two weeks: the street shall be built again, and the wall, even in troublous times.

26 And after threescore and two weeks shall Messiah be cut off, but not for himself: and the people of the prince that shall come shall destroy the city and the sanctuary; and the end thereof shall be with a flood, and unto the end of the war desolations are determined.

27 And he shall confirm the covenant with many for one week: and in the midst of the week he shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to cease, and for the overspreading of abominations he shall make it desolate, even until the consummation, and that determined shall be poured upon the desolate.

Can you tell me where it says the tribulation is 7 years?

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30 minutes ago, Matthew24 said:

Why can't i look at the forum? Did i get the boot? lol

OK, so the intro says that you have 490 years to accomplish this entire prophecy (70 x shabuwa`)

Verse 27: And he shall confirm the covenant with many for one week shabuwa`: and in the midst of the week shabuwa`  he shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to cease, and for the overspreading of abominations he shall make it desolate, even until the consummation, and that determined shall be poured upon the desolate. This synchronizes with 2 Thes 2:3b-4  "that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition; Who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped; so that he as God sitteth in the temple of God, shewing himself that he is God. "  And don't forget the gap between vs. 26 & 27 (ie: the Church Age).

Edited by beameup

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14 minutes ago, beameup said:

OK, so the intro says that you have 490 years to accomplish this entire prophecy (70 x shabuwa`)

Verse 27: And he shall confirm the covenant with many for one week shabuwa`: and in the midst of the week shabuwa`  he shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to cease, and for the overspreading of abominations he shall make it desolate, even until the consummation, and that determined shall be poured upon the desolate. This synchronizes with 2 Thes 2:3b-4  "that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition; Who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped; so that he as God sitteth in the temple of God, shewing himself that he is God. "

So this is your 100% proof that the trib is 7 years?  Where does it say that the entire week is called the tribulation?   I believe the tribulation is within the week, but it is a stretch to conclude it lasts the entire 7 years. What does Matthew 24:29 mean?  It is called the book of revelation because it reveals the prophecies. Jesus comes back after the tribulation. This is what a clear verse looks like.

Matthew 24

29 Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:

30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man

The only thing that makes people question it is the simplicity and their previous beliefs. People don't like to admit they are wrong, nor do they like to admit they had been tricked or decieved. 

15 When ye therefore shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, stand in the holy place

So when is does he come back?  after the tribulation ends.

When does the tribulation end?  shortly after the midst of the week

Edited by Matthew24

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13 hours ago, beameup said:

The "Abomination of Desolation" occurred in 167 B.C., so when Jesus mentions this it has already occurred and his audience knew exactly what he was talking about.  They also knew that he was speaking of yet another "Abomination of Desolation" that would occur in the future.

In 167 B.C. the desecration of the Second Temple (Herod's Temple) by the erection of a Zeus statue in its sacred precincts by Antiochus IV Epiphanes (and sacrificed swine on the altar).  This is referred to by Daniel in chapter 11.   Hanukkah is the celebration of the cleansing of the Temple. And it was at Jerusalem the feast of the dedication [rededication of the Temple following ritual cleansing] and it was winter. John 10:22    The Romans did no such thing.

The FUTURE "Abomination of Desolation" is referred to in Daniel 9:27 & 12:11, 1 Maccabees 1:57 & 6:7, Matthew 24:15-16, Mark 13:14.  Paul refers to this in 2 Thess 2. 

The first "abomination of desolation" is a matter of historical record.  The second has not occurred yet. I do understand.

No you don't understand.  The abomination of tribulation was the Roman armies surrounding Jerusalem as Luke tells us.

Luke 21: 20 ¶  And when ye shall see Jerusalem compassed with armies, then know that the desolation thereof is nigh.
Daniel refers to this: Antiochus returned to attack Egypt and the Roman fleet had got there and the Roman ambassador confronted Antiochus and drew a line in the sand (you may have heard of that expression) telling him that if he crossed that line he would be at war with Rome.

Daniel 11:29  At the time appointed he shall return, and come toward the south; but it shall not be as the former, or as the latter. 30  For the ships of Chittim shall come against him: therefore he shall be grieved, and return, and have indignation against the holy covenant: so shall he do; he shall even return, and have intelligence with them that forsake the holy covenant. 31  And arms shall stand on his part, and they shall pollute the sanctuary of strength, and shall take away the daily sacrifice, and they shall place the abomination that maketh desolate.

The arms were the Roman arms, They they were the Romans Antiochus did not make the sactuary desolate as did the Romans.  Josephus gives only two desolations, the first by the Babyloniand and the second by Rome.  "They" were the Romans Antiochus was not a "They" but a "He".

 


 
 

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1 minute ago, Matthew24 said:

So this is your 100% proof that the trib is 7 years?  Where does it say that the entire week is called the tribulation?   I believe the tribulation is within the week, but it is a stretch to conclude it last the entire 7 years. Why can't does Matthew 24:29 mean?  It is called the book of revelation because it reveals the prophecies. Jesus comes back after the tribulation. This is what a clear verse looks like.

Matthew 24

29 Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:

30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man

The only thing that makes people question it is the simplicity and their previous beliefs. People don't like to admit they are wrong, nor do they like to admit they had been tricked or decieved. 

15 When ye therefore shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, stand in the holy place

So when is does he come back?  after the tribulation ends.

When does the tribulation end?  shortly after the midst of the week

Daniel's Prophecy is the key.  It lays out a 490 year program, and these can be verified by the Bible and archaeological discoveries.  Now, Daniel breaks everything down into "weeks" of years.  The last "week" is the Tribulation, however, the last 1/2  (3 1/2 yrs) is the "Day of the Lord", "Day of Wrath", "Great Tribulation", "Jacob's trouble" Jeremiah 30:7 

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On 2/16/2016 at 4:27 PM, Matthew24 said:

Like the gap theory, and really I don't have time to go into great detail. I don't believe Scofield Bibles are good, nor do I believe the man was genuine. Just wanted to put that out there. You can research and come to your own conclusion, but my research tells me he's a fraud. Sam Adams has a great sermon series about scofield. 

I have a friend who has a Scofiled bible, he has had it since he was saved, he said I could borrow it if he can find it.

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So you believe Daniel is clearer than Revelation?   Get in the NT. The Day of the Lord, Day of wrath = The second coming.   Do a study of the "Day of the Lord" and look at the similarities between Matthew 24, Rev 6 etc.   There isn't any doubt....Gods wrath is poured out on man after the 2nd coming....to end the week. :)

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