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Rapture and Anti-Christ


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Other interesting Scriptures, perhaps more on Hades, but the resurrection is from death and Hades and the sea. Where exactly is hell, is the dust of the ground synonymous with man of the dust as far as geography goes?

Job 19:25 For I know that my redeemer liveth, and that he shall stand at the latter day upon the earth:
Job 19:26 And though after my skin worms destroy this body, yet in my flesh shall I see God:
Job 19:27 Whom I shall see for myself, and mine eyes shall behold, and not another; though my reins be consumed within me.

Ps 139:13+15 For Thou--Thou hast possessed my reins, Thou dost cover me in my mother's belly… My substance was not hid from Thee, When I was made in secret, Curiously wrought in the lower part of earth.

Lu 16:22 `And it came to pass, that the poor man died, and that he was carried away by the messengers to the bosom of Abraham--and the rich man also died, and was buried;
Lu 16:23 and in the hades having lifted up his eyes, being in torments, he doth see Abraham afar off, and Lazarus in his bosom,

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That's a lot to try and take in. Thank you for putting all that forth.

I'll ask about a few points I'm not clear on.

What is your view of our actual physical death? How does that fit in?

Do you believe there is no actual burning hell?

I'm not sure what you mean by we may be here seeing Jesus return but we may be with Him in the clouds at the same time...?

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On Sunday, February 14, 2016 at 2:45 AM, John81 said:

As the OP indicates, I'm referring to those who hold a pre-trib rapture view. The predominate pre-trib view on the issue I raised is changing, which is why I asked the question.

Hello John 81 This might be way out there, but it could be 'the times were in', while on the one hand we have ‘strong delusion..‘ 2Th 2:11 and so we are told,  ‘Take heed that no man deceive you. Mt 24:4 ‘..if it were possible, they shall deceive the very elect.’ Mt 24:24,

there is also the other side of things,

Mal 4:2 But unto you that fear my name shall the Sun of righteousness arise with healing in his wings; and ye shall go forth, and grow up as calves of the stall.
Joh 16:13 Howbeit when he, the Spirit of truth, is come, he will guide you into all truth: …and he will shew you things to come.
2Pe 1:19 We have also a more sure word
of prophecy; whereunto ye do well that ye take heed, as unto a light that shineth in a dark place, until the day dawn, and the day star arise in your hearts:

‘Holding to sound doctrine’, in only good if your doctrine is sound in the first place, other wise it is more important to grow in the faith and in the knowledge of Christ in order to find sound doctrine, much of the error is subtle. Ever since the reformation the enemy has been coming back at the Church, much of the so called reformed theology is so bad that people might not even get saved, or Christians will be hindered by it.

2Pe 3:18 But grow in grace, and in the knowledge of our Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ. Till we all come in the unity of the faith, and of the knowledge of the Son of God, unto a perfect man, unto the measure of the stature of the fulness of Christ: Eph 4:13

So hopefully many Christians who hold to false doctrine which war against the faith, will find grace and light to let them go and so grow in Christ.

But we need the Holy Spirit as Teacher.

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16 minutes ago, John81 said:

That's a lot to try and take in. Thank you for putting all that forth.

I'll ask about a few points I'm not clear on.

What is your view of our actual physical death? How does that fit in?

Do you believe there is no actual burning hell?

I'm not sure what you mean by we may be here seeing Jesus return but we may be with Him in the clouds at the same time...?

Our physical death, our dust returns to dust, but after the suffering whether it be much or little we are with the Lord.

Well to be Honest, I think this whole earth will be cast down to hell, at the end of every 'day' and the smoke of their 'TORMENT' will rise for ever and ever, and the lost men of the world will spring up like grass in the morning and will have their backs bent for ever, chasing the wind and lamenting their lot day and night, and the everlasting gospel will be just that, and the everlasting Victory will forevermore outweigh death. To the increase of His Kingdom their will be no end. There sure is actual fire burning actual flesh, if you Google or Bing it you will find it,  but then the poor soul dies, the fire in Revelation is the tormented soul which gives off the smoke. I believe earth goes on forever, something like this. Ecc 3:14 and the gospel train goes out every year, just like their is a harvest every year, if the stars teach us anything about seasons, it is this, they go on, and on.... But I'm not entirely set in my views on any of these topics.

Being on earth and in heaven at the same time, Jesus at times said he was in the bosom of the father, and was both in heaven and on earth, I think we are being poured out like water into a vessel which is already in heaven, or rather rising like smoke as an offering, but our spiritual will increase and our natural will decrease, like the psalmist put it, Ps 139:18 ...when I awake, I am still with thee, this could mean after he dies.

But I shall put my hard hat on now as I anticipate many hard objects flying my way including the proverbial kitchen sink... :blink:

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3 minutes ago, Old-Pilgrim said:

Our physical death, our dust returns to dust, but after the suffering whether it be much or little we are with the Lord.

Well to be Honest, I think this whole earth will be cast down to hell, at the end of every 'day' and the smoke of their 'TORMENT' will rise for ever and ever, and the lost men of the world will spring up like grass in the morning and will have their backs bent for ever, chasing the wind and lamenting their lot day and night, and the everlasting gospel will be just that, and the everlasting Victory will forevermore outweigh death. To the increase of His Kingdom their will be no end. There sure is actual fire burning actual flesh, if you Google or Bing it you will find it,  but then the poor soul dies, the fire in Revelation is the tormented soul which gives off the smoke. I believe earth goes on forever, something like this. Ecc 3:14 and the gospel train goes out every year, just like their is a harvest every year, if the stars teach us anything about seasons, it is this, they go on, and on.... But I'm not entirely set in my views on any of these topics.

Being on earth and in heaven at the same time, Jesus at times said he was in the bosom of the father, and was both in heaven and on earth, I think we are being poured out like water into a vessel which is already in heaven, or rather rising like smoke as an offering, but our spiritual will increase and our natural will decrease, like the psalmist put it, Ps 139:18 ...when I awake, I am still with thee, this could mean after he dies.

But I shall put my hard hat on now as I anticipate many hard objects flying my way including the proverbial kitchen sink... :blink:

Your interpretations are definitely, how shall I say? "private". I cannot follow much if any of it to be honest friend.

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27 minutes ago, Old-Pilgrim said:

Our physical death, our dust returns to dust, but after the suffering whether it be much or little we are with the Lord.

Well to be Honest, I think this whole earth will be cast down to hell, at the end of every 'day' and the smoke of their 'TORMENT' will rise for ever and ever, and the lost men of the world will spring up like grass in the morning and will have their backs bent for ever, chasing the wind and lamenting their lot day and night, and the everlasting gospel will be just that, and the everlasting Victory will forevermore outweigh death. To the increase of His Kingdom their will be no end. There sure is actual fire burning actual flesh, if you Google or Bing it you will find it,  but then the poor soul dies, the fire in Revelation is the tormented soul which gives off the smoke. I believe earth goes on forever, something like this. Ecc 3:14 and the gospel train goes out every year, just like their is a harvest every year, if the stars teach us anything about seasons, it is this, they go on, and on.... But I'm not entirely set in my views on any of these topics.

Being on earth and in heaven at the same time, Jesus at times said he was in the bosom of the father, and was both in heaven and on earth, I think we are being poured out like water into a vessel which is already in heaven, or rather rising like smoke as an offering, but our spiritual will increase and our natural will decrease, like the psalmist put it, Ps 139:18 ...when I awake, I am still with thee, this could mean after he dies.

But I shall put my hard hat on now as I anticipate many hard objects flying my way including the proverbial kitchen sink... :blink:

I'm not sure I understand much of this. Could you maybe reword some of this or try to explain it a bit more clearly?

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Does this view fit in with any of this:

 

I know individuals who enjoy turning to 1 Thessalonians 4:13-18 and reflecting on what's popularly called the "rapture." They insist this passage is about God taking His people away. Yet is that true? Is this what these verses are really concerned with?

While it's true that in this section Paul talks about believers being caught up in the clouds to meet Jesus, there's something more to this if you care to look. If you read this passage carefully, you'll see that Paul isn't talking about believers abandoning creation. What he's really concerned about is our participation in Jesus' earthly appearance and celebration.

So, if this text is referring to the Lord's appearing rather than our departure, what is this "meeting the Lord in the air" in verse 17 all about?

It's helpful to consider Paul's word for "meeting" in this passage. It is the Greek word apantesis, which typically described the formal welcoming of a dignitary into a city. In other Greek literature, it was a term that described a great delegation that would travel to the outskirts of the city gates and beyond to receive the conquering king as he returned to the land.

I know that some won't like what I'm writing in this blog post, but I think that each of us should consider the context and the grammatical-historical issues shaping a passage such as this. However uncomfortable it may be, we must learn to properly exegete and draw from the passage what's actually there. It serves no one to insert something unfounded into these verses.

Getting back to my point. 1 Thessalonians 4:13-18 really isn't about a departure, but a grand entrance. The apostle Paul really isn't concerned about you and me leaving the earth. In all actuality, he wants us to know we're going to be a part of a special entourage. We're going to be included in a great "welcoming party" who joyfully receives the Lord as He bodily appears here on earth.

When I think about this passage and how often it's misread, it grieves my heart. Paul wants us to know that God is going to gather the living and the dead together in the clouds to welcome the Lord into this earthly terrain. It is supposed to be a message of hope and engagement. Who would have thought this great assurance would turn into a personal exit strategy for so many?

I often think about the Christian church in North America and wonder when we're going to stop trying to trying to disengage and find a way out? I pray that one day we finally stop trying to evacuate.

J.D. King

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I was always taught that this refers to whet they call the rapture. If you were to say that is says Christ is descending, they reply that it doesn't say he is coming to earth.  If you answer that it neither does it say that he won't and that it said he will descend but doesn't say he will ascend, they will walk away.  They also changed the wording of the scripture.  There have been some on OB in the past who also changed it the same way.  

13 ¶  But I would not have you to be ignorant, brethren, concerning them which are asleep, that ye sorrow not, even as others which have no hope. 14  For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him.
15  For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep. 16  For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:
17  Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord. 18  Wherefore comfort one another with these words.

The words they change are , "to meet the Lord in the air:" to "He is coming to the air."  Where does it say that?  It doesn't, but I have over the years pointed that out but they always reply, "He is coming to the air."   I have had discussions  about that with those who have been on the site in the past, and if there are any who believe that now, I would ask you how you justify that from scripture.

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"in the air" is the term that Scripture uses. There is no justification for the phrase "to the air". This is someone's lame attempt at putting forth their own fairy tale. I'll take what Scripture says over false teachers any day.

Any time I have seen the phrase "He is coming to the air", I have thought it a very odd saying. I am no grammarian, but perhaps Pastor Scott could elaborate a bit on the grammatical structure between the two phrases.

It is also incorrect to say that, "He is coming to the air", when Scripture plainly says that it is us who rise to meet The Lord in the air.
"Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air."

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14 hours ago, John81 said:

Does this view fit in with any of this:

 

I know individuals who enjoy turning to 1 Thessalonians 4:13-18 and reflecting on what's popularly called the "rapture." They insist this passage is about God taking His people away. Yet is that true? Is this what these verses are really concerned with?

While it's true that in this section Paul talks about believers being caught up in the clouds to meet Jesus, there's something more to this if you care to look. If you read this passage carefully, you'll see that Paul isn't talking about believers abandoning creation. What he's really concerned about is our participation in Jesus' earthly appearance and celebration.

So, if this text is referring to the Lord's appearing rather than our departure, what is this "meeting the Lord in the air" in verse 17 all about?

It's helpful to consider Paul's word for "meeting" in this passage. It is the Greek word apantesis, which typically described the formal welcoming of a dignitary into a city. In other Greek literature, it was a term that described a great delegation that would travel to the outskirts of the city gates and beyond to receive the conquering king as he returned to the land.

I know that some won't like what I'm writing in this blog post, but I think that each of us should consider the context and the grammatical-historical issues shaping a passage such as this. However uncomfortable it may be, we must learn to properly exegete and draw from the passage what's actually there. It serves no one to insert something unfounded into these verses.

Getting back to my point. 1 Thessalonians 4:13-18 really isn't about a departure, but a grand entrance. The apostle Paul really isn't concerned about you and me leaving the earth. In all actuality, he wants us to know we're going to be a part of a special entourage. We're going to be included in a great "welcoming party" who joyfully receives the Lord as He bodily appears here on earth.

When I think about this passage and how often it's misread, it grieves my heart. Paul wants us to know that God is going to gather the living and the dead together in the clouds to welcome the Lord into this earthly terrain. It is supposed to be a message of hope and engagement. Who would have thought this great assurance would turn into a personal exit strategy for so many?

I often think about the Christian church in North America and wonder when we're going to stop trying to trying to disengage and find a way out? I pray that one day we finally stop trying to evacuate.

J.D. King

Wow, talk about changing the Word to suit your false teaching. This is nothing more than purposeful fabrication disguised in "sincere" concern.

I can't tell is this the "christian science" King or the charismatic King? Those are the only two options google gave me on a J.D. King.  Where did you find this memo John?

Regardless the catching away is non applicable to either one of them so how can he (they) be expected to understand it?

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42 minutes ago, Invicta said:

I was always taught that this refers to whet they call the rapture. If you were to say that is says Christ is descending, they reply that it doesn't say he is coming to earth.  If you answer that it neither does it say that he won't and that it said he will descend but doesn't say he will ascend, they will walk away.  They also changed the wording of the scripture.  There have been some on OB in the past who also changed it the same way.  

13 ¶  But I would not have you to be ignorant, brethren, concerning them which are asleep, that ye sorrow not, even as others which have no hope. 14  For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him.
15  For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep. 16  For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:
17  Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord. 18  Wherefore comfort one another with these words.

The words they change are , "to meet the Lord in the air:" to "He is coming to the air."  Where does it say that?  It doesn't, but I have over the years pointed that out but they always reply, "He is coming to the air."   I have had discussions  about that with those who have been on the site in the past, and if there are any who believe that now, I would ask you how you justify that from scripture.

10 minutes ago, Jim_Alaska said:

"in the air" is the term that Scripture uses. There is no justification for the phrase "to the air". This is someone's lame attempt at putting forth their own fairy tale. I'll take what Scripture says over false teachers any day.

Any time I have seen the phrase "He is coming to the air", I have thought it a very odd saying. I am no grammarian, but perhaps Pastor Scott could elaborate a bit on the grammatical structure between the two phrases.

It is also incorrect to say that, "He is coming to the air", when Scripture plainly says that it is us who rise to meet The Lord in the air.
"Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air."

1 Thessalonians 4:16 indicates that "the Lord himself shall descend from heaven."  Grammatically, this reveals that location from which the Lord will begin his journey of descent.  Using the phrase, "the Lord is coming to the air," would then grammatically indicate the location of objective unto which the Lord intends to end his journey of descent (which is certainly what those who use this phrase intend to teach).  However, God's Word does NOT use this phrase.  Rather, in 1 Thessalonians 4:16-17 God's Word indicates that those believers who are "dead in Christ" at this time of our Lord's descent "from heaven" shall "rise first" in resurrection, and that those believers in Christ who "are alive and remain" at this time of our Lord's descent "from heaven" shall "be caught up together with them in the clouds."  Grammatically, this reveals that the location wherein all of these believers in Christ shall join together with each other is "in the clouds."  Furthermore, in 1 Thessalonian 4:17 God's Word indicates that all of this will be for the purpose "to meet the Lord in the air."  Grammatically, this reveals that the location wherein the Lord in his journey of descent will meet with the believers in Christ who are rising and being caught up together is "in the air."  Certainly, this reveals that our Lord in His journey of descent will at some point be "in the air."  However, this phrase does NOT grammatically reveal whether the Lord's journey of descent will end "in the air," such that He then returns to heaven with his own, or whether the Lord's journey of descent will continue through the air to the earth.  Finally, God's Word indicates that all those believers in Christ who "meet the Lord in the air" through this event shall "ever be with the Lord."  Grammatically, this reveals that wherever the Lord goes from the point of their meeting with Him in the air, they shall ever continue with Him.  However, this does NOT reveal at all where the Lord will go from the point of this meeting.

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26 minutes ago, Pastor Scott Markle said:

1 Thessalonians 4:16 indicates that "the Lord himself shall descend from heaven."  Grammatically, this reveals that location from which the Lord will begin his journey of descent.  Using the phrase, "the Lord is coming to the air," would then grammatically indicate the location of objective unto which the Lord intends to end his journey of descent (which is certainly what those who use this phrase intend to teach).  However, God's Word does NOT use this phrase.  Rather, in 1 Thessalonians 4:16-17 God's Word indicates that those believers who are "dead in Christ" at this time of our Lord's descent "from heaven" shall "rise first" in resurrection, and that those believers in Christ who "are alive and remain" at this time of our Lord's descent "from heaven" shall "be caught up together with them in the clouds."  Grammatically, this reveals that the location wherein all of these believers in Christ shall join together with each other is "in the clouds."  Furthermore, in 1 Thessalonian 4:17 God's Word indicates that all of this will be for the purpose "to meet the Lord in the air."  Grammatically, this reveals that the location wherein the Lord in his journey of descent will meet with the believers in Christ who are rising and being caught up together is "in the air."  Certainly, this reveals that our Lord in His journey of descent will at some point be "in the air."  However, this phrase does NOT grammatically reveal whether the Lord's journey of descent will end "in the air," such that He then returns to heaven with his own, or whether the Lord's journey of descent will continue through the air to the earth.  Finally, God's Word indicates that all those believers in Christ who "meet the Lord in the air" through this event shall "ever be with the Lord."  Grammatically, this reveals that wherever the Lord goes from the point of their meeting with Him in the air, they shall ever continue with Him.  However, this does NOT reveal at all where the Lord will go from the point of this meeting.

Thanks Bro Scott.  That is OK as far as it goes, but we know that the Lord will return to earth sometime and it will be the same way as he left, from the earth. 

Acts 1:10  And while they looked stedfastly toward heaven as he went up, behold, two men stood by them in white apparel;
11  Which also said, Ye men of Galilee, why stand ye gazing up into heaven? this same Jesus, which is taken up from you into heaven, shall so come in like manner as ye have seen him go into heaven.

I was that there were two second comings, one for the saints and one with the saints. The last time we had a Brethren speaker at our church, he spoke on the above verses, and said, he was only coming to Jews as Jesus was speaking to Jews.  I asked where were Christians at this time? and he said "In heaven."  When I said how could they be in heaven if we were to be for ever with the Lord?  At which point he lost his cool and stormed off.  Of course the Angel was speaking to Christians, who happened to be Jews.  Anyway that doesn't fit in with their teaching of two comings as it was not for the saints nor with the saints.  
 

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32 minutes ago, Pastor Scott Markle said:

On the other hand, John 14:1-3 might (?) be used to indicate the location unto which we will go with the Lord when He receives us unto himself.

May be used, but it doesn't say where his father's house will be located.

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