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Rapture and Anti-Christ


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2 hours ago, Invicta said:

Yes  that is what many of our forefathers belied going back to the Waldesians before the reformation.  The early writers believed that the emperor was the then restrainer, because there could not be two rulers in Rome at the same time.  They were more in a position to know than were are because Paul said the Thessalonians knew because he told them and it would can assume that the Waldensians told their sister churches what the let and hindrance was. 

2Th 2:8 'And then shall that Wicked be revealed,* whom the Lord shall consume with the spirit of his mouth, and shall destroy with the brightness of his coming:'

So if Rome was the restrainer then this red Astrix would represent about 1900 years? Isn't that what Luther believed? I heard Luther Believed that Himself and company were to be consuming the Antichrist & Co with the preaching of the truth. Which if he was right is most relevant because it would mean that determinism was wrong and that we aught to be getting about finishing the task. but on top of that we might need to identify 'where is the Antichrist NOW' So we can demolish it's lies which exalt themselves above God.?

 

Edited by Old-Pilgrim
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26 minutes ago, Old-Pilgrim said:

2Th 2:8 'And then shall that Wicked be revealed,* whom the Lord shall consume with the spirit of his mouth, and shall destroy with the brightness of his coming:'

So if Rome was the restrainer then this red Astrix would represent about 1900 years? Isn't that what Luther believed? I heard Luther Believed that Himself and company were to be consuming the Antichrist & Co with the preaching of the truth. Which if he was right is most relevant because it would mean that determinism was wrong and that we aught to be getting about finishing the task. but on top of that we might need to identify 'where is the Antichrist NOW' So we can demolish it's lies which exalt themselves above God.?

 

I shouldn't believe hearsay about Luther.  When he burnt the Papal Bull he wrote a tract entitled, Against The Execrable Bull of Antichrist.

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5 hours ago, Ronda said:

 I personally think the devil has had a candidate prepped/waiting in every generation since Christ came. The devil doesn't know when Jesus will rapture us and so I would think (my own opinion here) that he has had to have had someone ready for the position in each generation since Christ came.

Good point.  I believe that also.  Isn't it amazing that God could wait so many centuries to complete the Body of Christ?   Now we see Israel once again and the growth of Messianic congregations there in Israel. 

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32 minutes ago, Invicta said:

I shouldn't believe hearsay about Luther.  When he burnt the Papal Bull he wrote a tract entitled, Against The Execrable Bull of Antichrist.

I doubt if Luther was always right, but he advanced the truth much, I heard that he believed that the preacher/christian was the spirit (breath) of His mouth, and so that by the Church Christ was making war against the beast.

 

Edited by Old-Pilgrim
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14 minutes ago, beameup said:
24 minutes ago, beameup said:

Good point.  I believe that also.  Isn't it amazing that God could wait so many centuries to complete the Body of Christ?   Now we see Israel once again and the growth of Messianic congregations there in Israel. 

Good point.  I believe that also.  Isn't it amazing that God could wait so many centuries to complete the Body of Christ?   Now we see Israel once again and the growth of Messianic congregations there in Israel. 

 

6 hours ago, Ronda said:

I see your point, brother "beameup"... but it no longer matters, because it didn't happen then.  They DID stone Stephen, Israel was then blinded in part (until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in), and Paul was called out thereby giving the gospel to the Gentiles as well (in part, to provoke Israel to jealousy).  How thankful I am to have been born during this time period (the age of grace). How thankful I am for Jesus' perfect work on the cross (His willing death, burial, AND resurrection). How thankful I am for having heard the gospel and accepted Christ. How thankful I am that Jesus has delivered us from the wrath to come. And how thankful I am for the blessed hope. Titus 2:13 "Looking for that blessed hope, and the glorious appearing of the great God and our Saviour Jesus Christ".  And even more thankful that God is in control and more powerful in His perfect righteousness than anything the devil can whip up, and even more powerful than the devil himself. 

I personally think the devil has had a candidate prepped/waiting in every generation since Christ came. The devil doesn't know when Jesus will rapture us and so I would think (my own opinion here) that he has had to have had someone ready for the position in each generation since Christ came. I also think (my own opinion again) that the devil is working overtime right now, because as prophecy starts lining up, he has to know his time is about up... so he's getting in all the gut-punches he can now. It will be far worse for those in the tribulation (Rev. 12:12) when he fully realizes that God's word is true, no matter how hard the devil tried to thwart prophecy from coming to pass, God is far superior and much more powerful than that nasty devil. The arrogance is amazing... God created him and yet he somehow thinks he can outsmart God! Ridiculous! The devil has done a LOT of damage to Israel, a LOT of damage to Christians, and a LOT of damage to mankind as a whole. He's jealous of our position with God, he's jealous of God's power and authority, he wants it all for himself... but he does not deserve it! He is not righteous, he is evil (obvious but profound). God only allows him to go so far with his plans, and God has even foretold the devil's demise... yet somehow the arrogance of the devil makes him think he could ever overcome God??? The devil has been blinded by his own greedy desires (we can see this on a smaller scale in mankind... thinking they know more than the God who created them... the stupidity of it, yet they think they are "wise" in their own conceits). So no matter WHO the antichrist is or will be... it doesn't matter. God has already told the end from the beginning!!! He has even let us in on many of the future events to come. We read the end of the book God gave us. God wins! AMEN!

'So no matter WHO the antichrist is or will be... it doesn't matter. God has already told the end from the beginning!!! He has even let us in on many of the future events to come. We read the end of the book God gave us. God wins! AMEN!'

But we are 'co workers' so we do need to mature and engage, don't we?

 

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11 hours ago, Old-Pilgrim said:

I doubt if Luther was always right, but he advanced the truth much, I heard that he believed that the preacher/christian was the spirit (breath) of His mouth, and so that by the Church Christ was making war against the beast.

 

Again, I say, Don't believe hearsay about Luther, or anyone else for that matter.  When it comes to men in the past, read what they have written, not what people say about them.

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12 hours ago, Old-Pilgrim said:

But we are 'co workers' so we do need to mature and engage, don't we?

I'm not sure what you define as "mature and engage" or where you get that in the Bible in reference to the antichrist... I don't see anywhere in the Bible where it tells us to guess the name of the antichrist. 

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13 hours ago, Invicta said:

Again, I say, Don't believe hearsay about Luther, or anyone else for that matter.  When it comes to men in the past, read what they have written, not what people say about them.

oh 'hearsay' I miss read, I thought you said heresy. I agree with you on that point if someone is going to teach on what certain people believed it is important to find source material, get it from the horses mouth as they say, That is why I said' I have heard that Luther believed', because I never checked it out. It was Chris Pinto who said it, and he does give some sort of reference, I have found him to be about as good as they come for reliability. Not that I always agree with him. I think his documentaries are worth the time to view them. My main concern is not so much whether Luther believed such a thing or not, but whether it is true or not, if it is true, then we would be indeed co workers with Christ. And it could be that the time scale of the prophecy in Daniel about the church being trodden down and persecuted for a long time might actually depend on how long we take to mature and overcome the world, i.e. the ball might be in our court. I know that is a bit foggy. This would mean that although The Lord knows on what date for example the stone not hewn by hand shall hit the feet of the image, as described in Daniel, that date might not actually be set yet, and might be dependent on how soon the Church matures.

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4 minutes ago, Old-Pilgrim said:

oh 'hearsay' I miss read, I thought you said heresy. I agree with you on that point if someone is going to teach on what certain people believed it is important to find source material, get it from the horses mouth as they say, That is why I said' I have heard that Luther believed', because I never checked it out. It was Chris Pinto who said it, and he does give some sort of reference, I have found him to be about as good as they come for reliability. Not that I always agree with him. I think his documentaries are worth the time to view them. My main concern is not so much whether Luther believed such a thing or not, but whether it is true or not, if it is true, then we would be indeed co workers with Christ. And it could be that the time scale of the prophecy in Daniel about the church being trodden down and persecuted for a long time might actually depend on how long we take to mature and overcome the world, i.e. the ball might be in our court. I know that is a bit foggy. This would mean that although The Lord knows on what date for example the stone not hewn by hand shall hit the feet of the image, as described in Daniel, that date might not actually be set yet, and might be dependent on how soon the Church matures.

Luther changed his mind on a number of issues.  One source of hearsay of Luther, it is the book, Luther's Table Talk.  It is purported to be sayings that his friends collected while at his table.  They may be true but maybe not. Quite an extensive book.  I think I have a copy somewhere but I have never read much of it. I have not seen it lately so may not have it now.  

 

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11 hours ago, Ronda said:

I'm not sure what you define as "mature and engage" or where you get that in the Bible in reference to the antichrist... I don't see anywhere in the Bible where it tells us to guess the name of the antichrist. 

I don't think I said anything about Naming the Antichrist, but what I meant was that some people believe that one thing which was instrumental in the reformation was that when the Church Identified the RC church as the manifestation of the enemy of Christ on earth, by mature and engage I mean that Christ might not be coming back until we are ready, as I said ''My main concern is not so much whether Luther believed such a thing or not, but whether it is true or not, if it is true, then we would be indeed co workers with Christ. And it could be that the time scale of the prophecy in Daniel about the church being trodden down and persecuted for a long time might actually depend on how long we take to mature and overcome the world, i.e. the ball might be in our court. I know that is a bit foggy. This would mean that although The Lord knows on what date for example the stone not hewn by hand shall hit the feet of the image, as described in Daniel, that date might not actually be set yet, and might be dependent on how soon the Church matures. Aren't the saints going to be behind the Lamb at Armageddon? so at that point we shall be fully engaged in battle.

 

9 minutes ago, Old-Pilgrim said:

.

 

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2 minutes ago, Old-Pilgrim said:

I don't think I said anything about Naming the Antichrist, but what I meant was that some people believe that one thing which was instrumental in the reformation was that when the Church Identified the RC church as the manifestation of the enemy of Christ on earth, by mature and engage I mean that Christ might not be coming back until we are ready, as I said ''My main concern is not so much whether Luther believed such a thing or not, but whether it is true or not, if it is true, then we would be indeed co workers with Christ. And it could be that the time scale of the prophecy in Daniel about the church being trodden down and persecuted for a long time might actually depend on how long we take to mature and overcome the world, i.e. the ball might be in our court. I know that is a bit foggy. This would mean that although The Lord knows on what date for example the stone not hewn by hand shall hit the feet of the image, as described in Daniel, that date might not actually be set yet, and might be dependent on how soon the Church matures. Aren't the saints going to be behind the Lamb at Armageddon? so at that point we shall be fully engaged in battle.

 

 

What end-times view do you hold to? That makes a big difference in how a person sees these things.

There are some who believe Christianity will spread strongly around the world and then Christ will return. Those who hold to the pre-trib rapture view see a world heading into great turmoil, the rapture of Christians, the time of tribulation and at the final battle the saints in heaven will join Christ as He defeats the devil and his followers.

Our call today is to grow in Christlikeness, to spread the Gospel, make disciples, and be found living right in the Lord when He comes for us.

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6 minutes ago, Invicta said:

Luther changed his mind on a number of issues.  One source of hearsay of Luther, it is the book, Luther's Table Talk.  It is purported to be sayings that his friends collected while at his table.  They may be true but maybe not. Quite an extensive book.  I think I have a copy somewhere but I have never read much of it. I have not seen it lately so may not have it now.  

 

I may try checking that quote. But as I said before I would go solely by Scripture, the church fathers writings as far as I can see are hearsay, Scripture is the Word of God, weren't they mostly based round Alexandria and probably favored Rome somewhat. I can't really go with the view 'Paul probably told them something which God the Holy Spirit never managed to get into his word, they interpret prophecy in their context, and we in ours, we have a wider spectrum of History to take into account.

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3 hours ago, Old-Pilgrim said:

I may try checking that quote. But as I said before I would go solely by Scripture, the church fathers writings as far as I can see are hearsay, Scripture is the Word of God, weren't they mostly based round Alexandria and probably favored Rome somewhat. I can't really go with the view 'Paul probably told them something which God the Holy Spirit never managed to get into his word, they interpret prophecy in their context, and we in ours, we have a wider spectrum of History to take into account.

Some of the writings "church fathers" were scriptural and some were based on North African and Gnostic heresies. Origen (an Arian) wrote the Hexapla which in reality is the phony Septuagint (aka LXX). There was no Seputagint before or during Christ's days. Origen made it up based on what he thought it would read like. The only evidence of it prior to him was a fable written within the Letter of Aristeas who was an Alexandrian Jew. Of course, all the scholars were suckered into believing it to be true.

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On Sunday, February 14, 2016 at 2:22 AM, Critical Mass said:

This has never been the predominate view of Christians. All the great missionaries of the 18th-19th centuries have been post-millennialists but after the end of the bloodiest century in history, the 20th century, the tide turned. Prior to that time most were a-millennialists. Now you are seeing the emergence of the Pre-wrath scenario where Christians will go through 1/2 to 3/4 of the Great Tribulation. 

The problem lies in the above quoted passage of scripture where Paul seems to suggest that believers will see the man of sin. The problem is is that the man of sin (aka the mystery of iniquity) was already at work in Paul's day. 

Hello CM

>>The problem lies in the above quoted passage of scripture where Paul seems to suggest that believers will see the man of sin. The problem is is that the man of sin (aka the mystery of iniquity) was already at work in Paul's day. <<

If the 'mystery of iniquity' was the same as what some call the 'mystery religion' or the 'wisdom teachings' IE all the various occult secret societies & religion(s), ancient or modern, who follow Lucifer. then the 'mystery of iniquity' would be the spirit and the secretive system which works from the shadows and has always been attempting to enthrone a world leader, the man of perdition would be when The Lord allows them to enthrone a man in such a position and he is made public, once the system is all in place. If you want to see a history of the mystery religion, see Chris Pinto's Documentaries, some of which are on YouTube as whole copies. Megiddo 1 and Megiddo 2-The-New-Age are a good start, or the Mysteries series 1 2&3. To watch the bulk of C Pintos Documentaries would take about 9-12 hours, I would recommend it.

The view that the Pope is 'THE AntiChrist' might be more or less right and I would not dismiss it off hand, but there is more than one major character mentioned in Revelation, there is the Beast, and the false prophet,  But the Mysteries Religion (or the New Age as it sometime gets called is a ancient and persistent spiritual movement which has gained much power in the last few centuries, and it is so subtle and secretive that most either think id doesn't exist or that it in not worthy of investigation. In Megiddo two, as I saw it, it sort of traces how a few people sitting round having a seance here and there has been organized by the Theosophical Society into a influential force, including having a huge influence on the United Nations. The Documentary covers other things as well. I will post a few links here.

 

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