Rapture and Anti-Christ

[Alan]

8 hours ago, John81 said:

What position do pre-trib rapture folks here believe to be the Bible truth with regards to when the anti-christ will be revealed. Do you believe the anti-christ will not be revealed until after the rapture, as seems to be what most believed at one time and what I was taught early on, or do you believe the anti-christ will be revealed prior to the rapture so Christians will know who he is?

Along these lines, does anyone know why there is a shift from the one view to the other?

John81,

I do not see any scriptural teaching that the Christians in the church age will know who the anti-christ is. Please see Pastor Markles above post on the matter as I agree with him and he wrote an better answer than I could write.

To me, and the churches that support me as a missionary, I do not see a shift at all. From what I see, this shift is coming from folks that are pouring the internet with this thinking. For example: Pastor Steven Anderson, brother Kent Hovind, other men who want to be considered IFB, and a multitude of other internet theologians are causing this shift. 

 

8 hours ago, Matthew24 said:

If we all take the bible literally except for when it isn't obviously being figurative then it should be easy to clearly show me a verse that says the tribulation is 7 years.  This is one of the lies that has been taken as a fact by 99% of churches. It isn't found in scripture. Probably shouldn't call it a lie. IMHO it is false that has been believed by most. We are naive.

Matthew24,

You, Invicta, and the other folks who do not believe that the Tribulation Period as depicted is 7 years in length ignore the plain teaching of Daniel 9:27. Pastor Markle proved without a shadow of a doubt the the Tribulation Period is 7 years. Both you and Invicta ignore this inspired scriptual knowledge and want everything said your way. The day you and Invicta can properly believe, correctly interpret scripture with scripture and learn how to rightly divide the scriptures, is the day you will see it.  

6 hours ago, Invicta said:

Where in Daniel's 70 weeks does it say the last week is the tribulation? I doesn't of course.

Invicta,

Daniel 9:24-27 says seven years. Pastor Markle already proved that the number of years that cover the Tribulation Period aas depicted in Revelation chapter 6-19 is seven years in his Daniel 9:27 debate with Covenanter. Just because it does not say it the way you want to say it does not change the truth.

6 hours ago, Invicta said:

Luke 21: 20 ¶ And when ye shall see Jerusalem compassed with armies, then know that the desolation thereof is nigh. 

How could the disciples see it if it was some centuries in the future?

The Lord Jesus was speaking to those Jews alive at the time of the fulfillment of the prophecy.

4 hours ago, John81 said:

This addresses part of the questions I've put forth. Could you put forth the Scripture which makes it clear the anti-christ will be revealed before the rapture?

To another point you have raised: when you say there is no Scripture proof of a 7 year tribulation, are you of the view there will be a 3 1/2 year tribulation or another view?

John81,

According to a close study of the prophecy of Daniel 9:24-27 the time of the Tribulation Period as depicted in Revelation chapter 6-19 is seven years.

[Invicta]

19 minutes ago, Alan said:

Invicta,

Daniel 9:24-27 says seven years. Pastor Markle already proved that the number of years that cover the Tribulation Period aas depicted in Revelation chapter 6-19 is seven years in his Daniel 9:27 debate with Covenanter. Just because it does not say it the way you want to say it does not change the truth.

6 hours ago, Invicta said:

Luke 21: 20 ¶ And when ye shall see Jerusalem compassed with armies, then know that the desolation thereof is nigh. 

How could the disciples see it if it was some centuries in the future?

The Lord Jesus was speaking to those Jews alive at the time of the fulfillment of the prophecy.

No he wasn't, he was speaking to those who were listening to him.  You are distorting scripture.

[Alan]

29 minutes ago, Invicta said:

No he wasn't, he was speaking to those who were listening to him.  You are distorting scripture.

Invicta,

You are the one distorting scripture in order to try and disprove the literal events as prophesied by the Old Testament prophets and revealed in the book of Revelation.

[John81]

Pastor Markle and Alan I thank both of you for your input which has been helpful. From what I learned in that Assembly of God church I was saved in through every Baptist church I've spent time in and been a member of is the same as you both present.

[beameup]

8 hours ago, Matthew24 said:

So you believe Daniel is clearer than Revelation?   Get in the NT. The Day of the Lord, Day of wrath = The second coming.   Do a study of the "Day of the Lord" and look at the similarities between Matthew 24, Rev 6 etc.   There isn't any doubt....Gods wrath is poured out on man after the 2nd coming....to end the week.

The Tribulation deals with Israel, in that it is the "testing" of Israel (ie: Time of Jacob's Trouble), and at the end, only a "remnant" will be saved.  You could view the Tribulation as a "transition period" between the Body of Christ (Age of Grace) and the Millennial Kingdom with Jesus Messiah on the Throne, in Jerusalem.  Jesus mentions "Daniel the Prophet" and the "Abomination of Desolation" twice - I think we should therefore "pay attention".   Once you have the "key" passage, then you can use other verses to "piece together" the 70th Week of Daniel (ie: 7 year Tribulation). 

PS: I believe the verse you referenced is the "Second Coming", which occurs at the end of the 70th Week of Daniel.  It's really not that complicated.

[beameup]

8 hours ago, Invicta said:

I didn't think Herod was alive in 167 B.C.

Not everyone recognizes "Nehemiah's Temple".  Herod simply "embellished" Nehemiah's Temple.  To be correct, it should be called "The Second Temple".  The "Third Temple" could be erected any day now, within the City of David, as the City of David is under Israeli control.  The Temple Institute has already trained the Kohen (Cohen) and made all the priestly garments.  As well, all of the furnishings and instruments of the Temple have been created (this includes the ashes of the red heifer).

8 hours ago, Invicta said:

Where in Daniel's 70 weeks does it say the last week is the tribulation? I doesn't of course.

You have to do your "homework", like Sherlock Holmes (with the help of the Holy Spirit, of course)

[beameup]

8 hours ago, Invicta said:

The command to rebuild Jerusalem and the temple was given by Cyrus.  

Isaiah 44: 26  That confirmeth the word of his servant, and performeth the counsel of his messengers; that saith to Jerusalem, Thou shalt be inhabited; and to the cities of Judah, Ye shall be built, and I will raise up the decayed places thereof:
27  That saith to the deep, Be dry, and I will dry up thy rivers:
28  That saith of Cyrus, He is my shepherd, and shall perform all my pleasure: even saying to Jerusalem, Thou shalt be built; and to the temple, Thy foundation shall be laid.
 

Nope.  Again, you have to look for the "small details", like Sherlock Holmes.  The "key" is: which decree mentions rebuilding the "walls and gates"???

[John81]

The debate itself, over the timing of the revealing of the anti-christ compared to the timing of the rapture isn't new. I recall this issue coming up when Gorbechev came to rule the Soviet Union. There were some claiming the birth mark on his forehead resembled a dragon and was a clear sign Gorbechev was the anti-christ. There was debate back and forth as to whether pre-rapture Christians could know who the anti-christ was during that time, but the predominate view was that the anti-christ would remain unknown prior to the rapture.

[Pastor Scott Markle]

6 minutes ago, John81 said:

The debate itself, over the timing of the revealing of the anti-christ compared to the timing of the rapture isn't new. I recall this issue coming up when Gorbechev came to rule the Soviet Union. There were some claiming the birth mark on his forehead resembled a dragon and was a clear sign Gorbechev was the anti-christ. There was debate back and forth as to whether pre-rapture Christians could know who the anti-christ was during that time, but the predominate view was that the anti-christ would remain unknown prior to the rapture.

Brother John,

Probably??? the difficulty for many is that the specific manner by which the "man of sin" is to be "revealed" is not presented in 2 Thessalonians 2.  Therefore, individuals begin to speculate as to the manner; and in that speculation they find "things" within the current events of the time.  However, I believe that the specific manner for the revelation of the "man of sin" IS provided in Scripture in Daniel 9:27 -- "And he [that is -- "the prince that shall come" from verse 26] shall confirm the covenant with many [among Daniel's people, the children of Israel] for one week."  I believe when that event occurs, then the seven year Tribulation Period (the seventieth week of years) has begun.

[John81]

8 minutes ago, Pastor Scott Markle said:

Brother John,

Probably??? the difficulty for many is that the specific manner by which the "man of sin" is to be "revealed" is not presented in 2 Thessalonians 2.  Therefore, individuals begin to speculate as to the manner; and in that speculation they find "things" within the current events of the time.  However, I believe that the specific manner for the revelation of the "man of sin" IS provided in Scripture in Daniel 9:27 -- "And he [that is -- "the prince that shall come" from verse 26] shall confirm the covenant with many [among Daniel's people, the children of Israel] for one week."  I believe when that event occurs, then the seven year Tribulation Period (the seventieth week of years) has begun.

That aligns with my thinking on this.

[beameup]

15 hours ago, Invicta said:

Luke 21: 20 ¶ And when ye shall see Jerusalem compassed with armies, then know that the desolation thereof is nigh. 

How could the disciples see it if it was some centuries in the future?

Quite simply, there will be Jewish "disciples" (believers in Yeshua Messiah) during the Tribulation.  In other words, the passage has some "prophetic" aspects to it.  The Antichrist will have "armies" of the world around Jerusalem prior to the "Second Coming".  So, in some respects "history repeats itself".

BTW, there is a difference between "Abomination" and "Desolation".  The "Abomination" was the pollution of the Holy Place within the Temple, as was the case in 167BC.  "Desolation" would be the destruction of the Temple, as the Romans did in 70AD.  An "abomination which makes desolate" would indicate that Temple rituals had to be totally abandoned (Temple vacated) because of the pollution of the Holy Place by Gentiles. see Dan 11 & 12

[during the Tribulation]  And the serpent cast out of his mouth water as a flood after the woman, that he might cause her to be carried away of the flood. And the earth helped the woman [remnant of Israel], and the earth opened her mouth, and swallowed up the flood which the dragon cast out of his mouth. And the dragon was wroth with the woman [remnant of Israel], and went to make war with the remnant of her seed, which keep the commandments of God, and have the testimony of Jesus Christ. Revelation 12:15-17  These Jewish believers will flee Jerusalem, just like those in 70AD.

 

Edited February 18, 2016 by beameup

[Invicta]

7 hours ago, Alan said:

Invicta,

You are the one distorting scripture in order to try and disprove the literal events as prophesied by the Old Testament prophets and revealed in the book of Revelation.

Actually when I was in a church that taught that, they actually said that Matthew and Mark were referring to a different event than Luke, the former were speaking of a later event and Luke  was referring to the events by the Romans.

Why would Jesus be referring to something thousands of hears ahead when there was a very close event when Jerusalem was surrounded by armies and the Christians actualy understood His words and abandoned the city?.

[Alan]

Brethren,

The events of Matthew 24 are depicted in the book of Revelation and are not referring to 70 AD when Titus took Jerusalem. Furthermore, I am not going to get into a philosophical debate why the Lord Jesus referred to the events of the last days as depicted in the book of Revelation and not to the events of 70 AD. I tend to avoid debates as they are endless. I do not ask why Jesus did this and not that as I am not a mind reader. I just love the Book as it is written and just want to discover the Riches contained in the Book.

Alan

[Matthew24]

15 hours ago, Alan said:

Matthew24,

You, Invicta, and the other folks who do not believe that the Tribulation Period as depicted is 7 years in length ignore the plain teaching of Daniel 9:27. Pastor Markle proved without a shadow of a doubt the the Tribulation Period is 7 years. Both you and Invicta ignore this inspired scriptual knowledge and want everything said your way. The day you and Invicta can properly believe, correctly interpret scripture with scripture and learn how to rightly divide the scriptures, is the day you will see it.  

Your opinion is not humbled, unbiased, or correct. I respectfully disagree. 

Obviously I'm extremely unintelligent. Anyone that has the holy spirit living inside of them can see this clear teaching that tribulation is 7 years.

²⁷ And he shall confirm the covenant with many for one week: and in the midst of the week he shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to cease, and for the overspreading of abominations he shall make it desolate, even until the consummation, and that determined shall be poured upon the desolate.

Edited February 18, 2016 by Matthew24

[No Nicolaitans]

36 minutes ago, Matthew24 said:

Your opinion is not humbled, unbiased, or correct. I respectfully disagree. 

Obviously I'm extremely unintelligent. Anyone that has the holy spirit living inside of them can see this clear teaching that tribulation is 7 years.

²⁷ And he shall confirm the covenant with many for one week: and in the midst of the week he shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to cease, and for the overspreading of abominations he shall make it desolate, even until the consummation, and that determined shall be poured upon the desolate.

Just out of curiosity, are you the Google+ Fisher of Men and Fisher of Men Productions? The information for both is the same. If so, on your accompanying YouTube channel (Fisher of Men Productions), there is a video called "Danielle of Truth and Spirit Mime". If that is your channel, may I ask your reason for posting that video?