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John81

Rapture and Anti-Christ

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I was born again in 1981 and I came to Christ after seeing the movie "Thief in the Night" at an Assembly of God church my girlfriend at the time talked me into attending. As most know, that film is based upon the pre-trib rapture view. That church held to that view and every Sunday night service was focused upon end-times matters. So most of my early born again learning on the matter was from books and sermons from the 1970s and early 80s. Everything I heard at the time indicated the Anti-Christ would not be known until after the Rapture. Over the past couple of years I'm hearing more and more that Christians will be here when the Anti-Christ takes the world stage and we will know who he is; the Rapture taking place sometime after that.

Why the shift from the predominate view being Christians wouldn't know who the Anti-Christ was because we would be raptured prior to his revealing, to the current view which says the Anti-Christ will be revealed before the Rapture so Christians will know who he is?

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To me this portion is foundational, because it is anchored in time, the time of Paul, it is writen to christians. It looks to me that AntiChrist will come first and shall decieve most, including us if we slumber, then the day of the LORD.

2Th 2:3 Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;
2Th 2:4 Who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped; so that he as God sitteth in the temple of God, shewing himself that he is God.
2Th 2:5 Remember ye not, that, when I was yet with you, I told you these things?
2Th 2:6 And now ye know what withholdeth that he might be revealed in his time.
2Th 2:7 For the mystery of iniquity doth already work: only he who now letteth will let, until he be taken out of the way.
2Th 2:8 And then shall that Wicked be revealed, whom the Lord shall consume with the spirit of his mouth, and shall destroy with the brightness of his coming:
2Th 2:9 Even him, whose coming is after the working of Satan with all power and signs and lying wonders,
2Th 2:10 And with all deceivableness of unrighteousness in them that perish; because they received not the love of the truth, that they might be saved.
2Th 2:11 And for this cause God shall send them strong delusion, that they should believe a lie:
2Th 2:12 That they all might be damned who believed not the truth, but had pleasure in unrighteousness.

 

1Th 5:2 For yourselves know perfectly that the day of the Lord so cometh as a thief in the night.
1Th 5:3 For when they shall say, Peace and safety; then sudden destruction cometh upon them, as travail upon a woman with child; and they shall not escape.
1Th 5:4 But ye, brethren, are not in darkness, that that day should overtake you as a thief.

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57 minutes ago, John81 said:

 

Why the shift from the predominate view being Christians wouldn't know who the Anti-Christ was because we would be raptured prior to his revealing, to the current view which says the Anti-Christ will be revealed before the Rapture so Christians will know who he is?

This has never been the predominate view of Christians. All the great missionaries of the 18th-19th centuries have been post-millennialists but after the end of the bloodiest century in history, the 20th century, the tide turned. Prior to that time most were a-millennialists. Now you are seeing the emergence of the Pre-wrath scenario where Christians will go through 1/2 to 3/4 of the Great Tribulation. 

The problem lies in the above quoted passage of scripture where Paul seems to suggest that believers will see the man of sin. The problem is is that the man of sin (aka the mystery of iniquity) was already at work in Paul's day. 

Edited by Critical Mass

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4 minutes ago, John81 said:

As the OP indicates, I'm referring to those who hold a pre-trib rapture view. The predominate pre-trib view on the issue I raised is changing, which is why I asked the question.

Again, as I stated above, the emergence of the Pre-wrath scenario. Many are changing to this position. Mostly because of the inability to distinguish Israel from the Church. As far as I know the leaven was injected into the lump back in 1990 by a Messianic Jew and editor of Zion's Fire named Marvin Rosenthal.

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13 hours ago, John81 said:

I was born again in 1981 and I came to Christ after seeing the movie "Thief in the Night" at an Assembly of God church my girlfriend at the time talked me into attending. As most know, that film is based upon the pre-trib rapture view. That church held to that view and every Sunday night service was focused upon end-times matters. So most of my early born again learning on the matter was from books and sermons from the 1970s and early 80s. Everything I heard at the time indicated the Anti-Christ would not be known until after the Rapture. Over the past couple of years I'm hearing more and more that Christians will be here when the Anti-Christ takes the world stage and we will know who he is; the Rapture taking place sometime after that.

Why the shift from the predominate view being Christians wouldn't know who the Anti-Christ was because we would be raptured prior to his revealing, to the current view which says the Anti-Christ will be revealed before the Rapture so Christians will know who he is?

 I don't know about that, John

Most Baptist Churches over here never accepted the pre tribulation rapture teaching from its inception in the early  19th century.  If you look at the baptist declarations of faith of 1644, 1646, 1689,1966, they are pretty consistent.  The main difference is that the latter has sadly dropped the idea that the Pope is Antichrist.  Until the turn of the 20th century the PTR was mainly taught by the Catholic Apostolic Church and the Brethren.  

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It appears my point is being missed. I'm not stating the pre-trib rapture is or ever was the predominate view in all of Christianity. I only pointed out that among those who hold the pre-trib rapture view, the predominate view was the rapture would occur before Christians knew who the anti-christ was but now the view is shifting to where many say the anti-christ will be revealed prior to the rapture.

Thus my question regarding what is the reason for this shift and, within the pre-trib rapture view, what Scripture supports one or the other position?

If other end times views had or have some impact upon this particular matter then I would like to know. Otherwise, this particular thread is only dealing with a specific point of question and not what other end times views are out there and what one is or isn't more biblically sound.

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I can't answer your question John. However, my view is this...

The Bible is clear that false teachers, false doctrine, and people with itching ears will be predominate in the last days; therefore, any "teaching" that gains momentum or popularity is suspect to me. That's not to say they should automatically be discounted or written off...it just gives me reason to pause and weigh it against scripture. 

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Unfortunately it will just be the same opposition John.

I think it makes sense to understand that the man of sin will be revealed after the Spirit is removed.

I believe Pentecost in Acts not only poured the Spirit out over all flesh literally beginning the regeneration, indwelling and sealing of the Holy Spirit in all true believers but it also provided restraint to demonic activity over all the earth in which the Gospel had currently spread. The restraint or containment of demonic activity spread in direct correlation to the spread of the Gospel. Are there some dark places without the Gospel still in the world? Perhaps some but only in the remotest areas that noone would hear about at this point in History (from a Biblical demonic possession standpoint)

The demonic activity I am referring to is the type demonstrated in the Gospels like the demon of Gardara.

Remember, the movie the exorcist was hollywood influenced by the vatican only and no actual occurrences anywhere remotely close to that have ever occurred, been recorded or been substantiated in modern history anyway. Unless one also believes in bigfoot and nessy. Schizophrenia and every other mental condition is the result of the curse and not some demonic activity BTW, IMO.

I also believe through many Scriptures that this type of activity will begin again after the removal of the Holy Spirit at the Catching Away. The man of Sin will be revealed and take power because there will be no restraint or containment of the Spirit. The Spirit will leave with the Church.

The preponderance of evidence in Scripture indicates this IMO but I will not claim it as fact without a shadow of doubt. Perhaps later in this week I will provide some of this evidence in Scripture.

Edited by wretched

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2 hours ago, wretched said:

I think it makes sense to understand that the man of sin will be revealed after the Spirit is removed.

Actually it makes no scriptural sense at all.  Firstly because there is no scripture to say the Holy Spirit will be removed..  That is just a modern day assuption.  Secondly it is in direct opposition to what the scripture actually says. in 2 Thess,2:3-4.  

1 falling away.  The falling away at and before the time of Constantine led to-

.2 The man of sin, that son of perdition, will be revealed.  Fulfilled by the papacy who opposed and exalted himself above all that is called god or worshipped (the consecrated wafer) sitting in the Temple of God, the Church, shewing himself that he is God/

3. Believers meeting the Lord.

Let no man deceive you by any means.

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6 hours ago, Invicta said:

Actually it makes no scriptural sense at all.  Firstly because there is no scripture to say the Holy Spirit will be removed..  That is just a modern day assuption.  Secondly it is in direct opposition to what the scripture actually says. in 2 Thess,2:3-4.  

1 falling away.  The falling away at and before the time of Constantine led to-

.2 The man of sin, that son of perdition, will be revealed.  Fulfilled by the papacy who opposed and exalted himself above all that is called god or worshipped (the consecrated wafer) sitting in the Temple of God, the Church, shewing himself that he is God/

3. Believers meeting the Lord.

Let no man deceive you by any means.

Actually it does make sense sir.

1. I did not mention the falling away in my post

2. As deceptive as the papacy is, performing the work as satan's biggest tool in his campaign as the prince and power of the air since the 3rd century. It as never once exhalted itself ABOVE all that is called God. As of this date the pope has never sat in the TEMPLE shewing himself as God. The pope will assist the real anti Christ by endorsement and aid de camp when the real time does come however IMO.  Your errors occur because of way too much symbolism. It clouds all judgment.

3. The Bible says IN THE AIR.

You are a likeable gent sir but wrong in theology IMO. 

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Bringing the concept of the removing of the Spirit touches upon this matter in a couple of ways.

Just as most pre-trib rapture folks once said the anti-christ would be unknown to pre-rapture Christians, most also once said the Holy Spirit would be removed from the earth at the Rapture, yet now many say only the restraining effects of the Holy Spirit will be removed. Either way, the result most often spoken of in connection with this would be the same.

Considering the anti-christ first appears as a "good guy" couldn't it be possible for him to rise to international recognition prior to the rapture? Even then, I suppose, there would be the question as to whether Christians would recognize him as the anti-christ or not.

Do these matters have any connection to the seemingly growing move of some pre-trib rapture folks moving to a mid-trib rapture position? Or are these separate matters?

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1 hour ago, wretched said:

Actually it does make sense sir.

1. I did not mention the falling away in my post

2. As deceptive as the papacy is, performing the work as satan's biggest tool in his campaign as the prince and power of the air since the 3rd century. It as never once exhalted itself ABOVE all that is called God. As of this date the pope has never sat in the TEMPLE shewing himself as God. The pope will assist the real anti Christ by endorsement and aid de camp when the real time does come however IMO.  Your errors occur because of way too much symbolism. It clouds all judgment.

3. The Bible says IN THE AIR.

You are a likeable gent sir but wrong in theology IMO. 

Thanks for the complement

If you do a search through Paul's letters, you will find he doesn't use the phases "Temple of God"  and "Temple of the Holy Spirit" to mean anything  BUT the Church, unless this is the exception.  

 

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3 minutes ago, Invicta said:

Thanks for the complement

If you do a search through Paul's letters, you will find he doesn't use the phases "Temple of God"  and "Temple of the Holy Spirit" to mean anything  BUT the Church, unless this is the exception.  

 

Well wouldn't it make more sense to understand it as the literal Temple in Jerusalem?

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Just now, wretched said:

Well wouldn't it make more sense to understand it as the literal Temple in Jerusalem?

No because there can be no literal temple in Jerusalem because there can be no priests.  Remember the temple sacrifice failed because there were no priests left to offer it.  The seditious had burnt down the house of Mortgages, to hide their loans, which house also house the genealogies so so one could prove their priesthood.  If they couldn't then, they cannot now.  Read Ezra to find out about priests that could not prove their genealogy.

If they were to build a temple, it could not be called the temple of God. 

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2 hours ago, Invicta said:

No because there can be no literal temple in Jerusalem because there can be no priests.  Remember the temple sacrifice failed because there were no priests left to offer it.  The seditious had burnt down the house of Mortgages, to hide their loans, which house also house the genealogies so so one could prove their priesthood.  If they couldn't then, they cannot now.  Read Ezra to find out about priests that could not prove their genealogy.

If they were to build a temple, it could not be called the temple of God. 

I understand sir but will you consider that this is a stretch. Regardless of the terminology or whether it will be the Temple of God to the Lord (which it certainly will not be), it will still be the Temple to all the unsaved on earth, jews included. Some 99+% of people.

In addition, satan nor his principalities could never enter the real Temple and certainly not the Holy of Holies when the temple was being used truly as the Temple of God. The temple referred to in 2Thess HAS TO BE an imitation, just as the beast will be an imitation.

Edited by wretched

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That's true, and according to some Orthodox Jews they have been able to determine some of the priestly line and would be able to staff the rebuilt temple.

The groups preparing for a rebuilt temple are intent upon seeing the temple rebuilt and immediately put into operation with their approved priests, sacrifices and their interpretation of right conduct before God. If they achieve this, many will accept it and join in or give support.

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7 hours ago, John81 said:

Bringing the concept of the removing of the Spirit touches upon this matter in a couple of ways.

Just as most pre-trib rapture folks once said the anti-christ would be unknown to pre-rapture Christians, most also once said the Holy Spirit would be removed from the earth at the Rapture, yet now many say only the restraining effects of the Holy Spirit will be removed. Either way, the result most often spoken of in connection with this would be the same.

Considering the anti-christ first appears as a "good guy" couldn't it be possible for him to rise to international recognition prior to the rapture? Even then, I suppose, there would be the question as to whether Christians would recognize him as the anti-christ or not.

Do these matters have any connection to the seemingly growing move of some pre-trib rapture folks moving to a mid-trib rapture position? Or are these separate matters?

I cannot answer your end question either John. The mid trib idea goes directly against the "thief in the night" Jesus spoke of. Not even the Angels of Heaven will know when so how could the mid trib idea have an ounce of merit?? All those born again will be able to count the days. I don't get that idea at all

.......enter Mike.....again :)

Edited by wretched

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7 hours ago, Invicta said:

No because there can be no literal temple in Jerusalem because there can be no priests.  Remember the temple sacrifice failed because there were no priests left to offer it.  The seditious had burnt down the house of Mortgages, to hide their loans, which house also house the genealogies so so one could prove their priesthood.  If they couldn't then, they cannot now.  Read Ezra to find out about priests that could not prove their genealogy.

If they were to build a temple, it could not be called the temple of God. 

The Levitical priests have already been trained by the Temple Institute.  The Jews keep accurate records (yes, even for 2,000 years).  Additionally, DNA has been utilized to confirm true Levitical priests.  As well, the Temple Institute has not only created exact replicas of all the priestly clothing, but has produced all the furnishings within the Temple.

I realize that you are influenced by "replacement theology" (Supersessionism) and all the accompanying "doctrines", such as "preterism", "symbolization" of scripture; however, God will fulfill his promises to Israel concerning the Kingdom.

Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition; Who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped; so that he as God sitteth in the temple of God, shewing himself that he is God.  2 Thes 2:3-4

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Where does it say that the Holy Spirit will be removed? II Thess. 2:7 doesn't say the "he" is the Holy Ghost. People have assumed that the "he" of the passage is the Holy Ghost but nothing in the context suggests that it is. You have to read that into the passage based on a preconceived theological belief. 

Actually, following the rules of English grammar the "he" in the passage is the the mystery of iniquity (aka the man of sin) but really, that doesn't make much sense.

IMO, "he" that withholds is Michael and he will be taken out of the way at the rapture.

Daniel 10:20,21

[20] Then said he, Knowest thou wherefore I come unto thee? and now will I return to fight with the prince of Persia: and when I am gone forth, lo, the prince of Grecia shall come.
[21] But I will shew thee that which is noted in the scripture of truth: and there is none that holdeth with me in these things, but Michael your prince.

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13 hours ago, beameup said:

Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition; Who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped; so that he as God sitteth in the temple of God, shewing himself that he is God.  2 Thes 2:3-4

 Very ingenious posting a scripture which I had already explained

Well here is a challenge for you.  Do a search of Paul's epistles, and tell where he uses the phrase temple of God for anything but the church?  Well I don't suppose you will as you only seem to have a few stock scriptures like the JWs, so I will do it for you.  

1Co 3:16  Know ye not that ye are the temple of God, and that the Spirit of God dwelleth in you?
1Co 3:17  If any man defile the temple of God, him shall God destroy; for the temple of God is holy, which temple ye are.
2Co 6:16  And what agreement hath the temple of God with idols? for ye are the temple of the living God; as God hath said, I will dwell in them, and walk in them; and I will be their God, and they shall be my people.
2Th 2:4  Who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped; so that he as God sitteth in the temple of God,
(see above) shewing himself that he is God.

1Co 6:19  What? know ye not that your body is the temple of the Holy Ghost which is in you, which ye have of God, and ye are not your own?

Consider carefully the following verses. Forget your pre prpogrammed Scofiieldism and thik what they actually mean without trying to explain them away,

 
Ephesian 2:11 ¶  Wherefore remember, that ye being in time past Gentiles in the flesh, who are called Uncircumcision by that which is called the Circumcision in the flesh made by hands;
12  That at that time ye were without Christ, being aliens from the commonwealth of Israel, and strangers from the covenants of promise, having no hope, and without God in the world:
13  But now in Christ Jesus ye who sometimes were far off are made nigh by the blood of Christ.
14 ¶  For he is our peace, who hath made both one, and hath broken down the middle wall of partition between us;
15  Having abolished in his flesh the enmity, even the law of commandments cained in ordinances; for to make in himself of twain one new man, so making peace;s16  And that he might reconcile both unto God in one body by the cross, having slain the enmity thereby:
17  And came and preached peace to you which were afar off, and to them that were nigh.
18  For through him we both have access by one Spirit unto the Father.
19  Now therefore ye are no more strangers and foreigners, but fellowcitizens with the saints, and of the household of God;
20  And are built upon the foundation of the apostles and prophets, Jesus Christ himself being the chief corner stone;
21  In whom all the building fitly framed together groweth unto an holy temple in the Lord:
22  In whom ye also are builded together for an habitation of God through the Spirit.
1 ¶  For this cause I Paul, the prisoner of Jesus Christ for you Gentiles,

 
There are a number of questions I can think that can be asked, but I will just ask Verse 19.  
Fellow citizens of Which Kingdom?
With which saints?
Which household of God?
1 Peter 2:5  Ye also, as lively stones, are built up a spiritual house, an holy priesthood, to offer up spiritual sacrifices, acceptable to God by Jesus Christ.

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Only those courageous enough to question everything they have ever been taught can find truth. Most people are cowards, blinded, unwilling to think that they could be wrong. I'm not saying I am enlightened, just humble enough to look at all information with an open mind....and realizing the bible is the final authority. To me the real key is...

1. Scofield bible and it's doctrines 

If you aren't correct on who the elect is, or who are the real jews, you won't be correct in end times prophecy. 

We have been duped into believing in fairy tales.

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