IN THE BEGINNING

[Pastor Scott Markle]

14 hours ago, beameup said:

Was the earth created by God "without form, and void" (tohuw bohuw)??

And the earth was [hayah H1961]  without form  [tohuw H8414], and void [bohuw H922]; and darkness was upon the face of the deep  Genesis 1:2a

Yes, when the Lord God created "the heaven [the space of the physical universe] and the earth" in Genesis 1:1 at the very beginning of the existence of the physical universe, the space of the physical universe ("the heaven") was completely empty of anything except a single planet, "the earth."  Furthermore, that planet ("the earth") was completely covered with liquid water ("the deep"); and that water was without any form of land and was void of any life.  Throughout the six days of His creation work, the Lord God would then create the "form" of the planet and would then fill the "void" of the planet.

13 hours ago, beameup said:

"And the earth was"  hayah H1961 - to be, become, come to pass, exist, happen, fall out

The Hebrew verb "hayah" is the most basic being verb of the Hebrew language.  As such, it most often indicates being or existence in some manner.  Even so, at the moment the Lord God created "the heaven [the space of the physical universe] and the earth," the earth planet existed in a condition that was "without form and void."  Or, (if you would rather) the Hebrew verb "hayah," as a being verb, can indicate the idea of "becoming."  Even so, at the immediate moment before the Lord God created "the heaven [the space of the physical universe] and the earth," the earth planet did not at all exist.  However, at the very moment  the Lord God created "the heaven [the space of the physical universe] and the earth," the earth planet became into existence in a condition that was "without form and void."

[Ukulelemike]

3 hours ago, Pastor Scott Markle said:

Yes, when the Lord God created "the heaven [the space of the physical universe] and the earth" in Genesis 1:1 at the very beginning of the existence of the physical universe, the space of the physical universe ("the heaven") was completely empty of anything except a single planet, "the earth."  Furthermore, that planet ("the earth") was completely covered with liquid water ("the deep"); and that water was without any form of land and was void of any life.  Throughout the six days of His creation work, the Lord God would then create the "form" of the planet and would then fill the "void" of the planet.

The Hebrew verb "hayah" is the most basic being verb of the Hebrew language.  As such, it most often indicates being or existence in some manner.  Even so, at the moment the Lord God created "the heaven [the space of the physical universe] and the earth," the earth planet existed in a condition that was "without form and void."  Or, (if you would rather) the Hebrew verb "hayah," as a being verb, can indicate the idea of "becoming."  Even so, at the immediate moment before the Lord God created "the heaven [the space of the physical universe] and the earth," the earth planet did not at all exist.  However, at the very moment  the Lord God created "the heaven [the space of the physical universe] and the earth," the earth planet became into existence in a condition that was "without form and void."

Amen.

God is a God of order. His creation week, a literal week, (well, six days and the day of rest), specifically were done to set precedence for all time afterward-as seven day weeks, and eventually, the establishment of the Sabbath day of rest for Israel. He COULD have spoke and the heavens and earth could have been created fully formed in an instant, but God did it in stages to set time in motion. It was done to establish order, so was done in an orderly fashion.  

[beameup]

When did this occur?

How art thou fallen from heaven, O Lucifer, son of the morning! how art thou cut down to the ground, which didst weaken the nations! For thou hast said in thine heart, I will ascend into heaven, I will exalt my throne above the stars of God: I will sit also upon the mount of the congregation, in the sides of the north: I will ascend above the heights of the clouds; I will be like the most High. Isaiah 14:12-14

[MountainChristian]

7 minutes ago, beameup said:

When did this occur?

How art thou fallen from heaven, O Lucifer, son of the morning! how art thou cut down to the ground, which didst weaken the nations! For thou hast said in thine heart, I will ascend into heaven, I will exalt my throne above the stars of God: I will sit also upon the mount of the congregation, in the sides of the north: I will ascend above the heights of the clouds; I will be like the most High. Isaiah 14:12-14

 

6 hours ago, Pastor Scott Markle said:

1.  Lucifer, who was created as "the anointed cherub that covereth," chose rebellion against his Creator God some time AFTER the end of the sixth day of the Lord God's creation work, as per the truth of Genesis 1:31 -- "And God saw every thing that he had made, and, behold, it was very good.  And the evening and the morning were the sixth day."

2.  Lucifer, who was created as "the anointed cherub that covereth," chose rebellion against his Creator God some time AFTER the creation of the Garden of Eden, as per the truth of Ezekiel 28:13-15 -- "Thou hast been in Eden the garden of God; every precious stone was thy covering, the sardius, topaz, and the diamond, the beryl, the onyx, and the jasper, the sapphire, the emerald, and the carbuncle, and gold: the workmanship of thy tabrets and of thy pipes was prepared in thee in the day that thou wast created.  Thou art the anointed cherub that covereth; and I have set thee so: thou wast upon the holy mountain of God; thou hast walked up and down in the midst of the stones of fire.  Thou wast perfect in thy ways from the day that thou wast created, till iniquity was found in thee."

3.  Lucifer, who was created as "the anointed cherub that covereth," chose rebellion against his Creator God some time BEFORE he engaged in the temptation of Eve, as per the truth of Genesis 3:1-ff.

Brother Scott answered that question

[beameup]

17 minutes ago, MountainChristian said:

 

Brother Scott answered that question

I don't get his posts, as they are on ignore.

Do you have an opinion on this issue?

[Pastor Scott Markle]

36 minutes ago, MountainChristian said:

Brother Scott answered that question

18 minutes ago, beameup said:

I don't get his posts, as they are on ignore.

Wow!!!!  I must have made a fairly significant impact there, huh???

Good to know, though.

Edited February 2, 2016 by Pastor Scott Markle

[Pastor Scott Markle]

49 minutes ago, beameup said:

When did this occur?

How art thou fallen from heaven, O Lucifer, son of the morning! how art thou cut down to the ground, which didst weaken the nations! For thou hast said in thine heart, I will ascend into heaven, I will exalt my throne above the stars of God: I will sit also upon the mount of the congregation, in the sides of the north: I will ascend above the heights of the clouds; I will be like the most High. Isaiah 14:12-14

By the way, this rebellion against the Creator God must also have occurred some time AFTER the mountains were created and some time AFTER the clouds were created -- "How art thou fallen from heaven, O Lucifer, son of the morning!  How art thou cut down to the ground, which didst weaken the nations!  For thou hast said in thine heart, I will ascend into heaven, I will exalt my throne above the stars of God: I will sit also upon the mount of the congregation, in the sides of the north: I will ascend above the heights of the clouds; I will be like the most High."

[wretched]

1 minute ago, Pastor Scott Markle said:

By the way, this rebellion against the Creator God must also have occurred some time AFTER the mountains were created and some time AFTER the clouds were created -- "How art thou fallen from heaven, O Lucifer, son of the morning!  How art thou cut down to the ground, which didst weaken the nations!  For thou hast said in thine heart, I will ascend into heaven, I will exalt my throne above the stars of God: I will sit also upon the mount of the congregation, in the sides of the north: I will ascend above the heights of the clouds; I will be like the most High."

This does raise a significant mystery however. If God cast him down prior to Adam's fall which He must have. How then could satan's fall weaken any nations? There were none at that time. Perhaps He was speaking in the present and future tenses at the same time but the phrase is worded in the past tense...pretty interesting.

What think you?

[Pastor Scott Markle]

40 minutes ago, wretched said:

This does raise a significant mystery however. If God cast him down prior to Adam's fall which He must have. How then could satan's fall weaken any nations? There were none at that time. Perhaps He was speaking in the present and future tenses at the same time but the phrase is worded in the past tense...pretty interesting.

What think you?

Brother Wretched,

Based upon the grammatical verb tenses, I would hold to the following:

1.  Isaiah 14:12 was spoken as a confrontational exclamation against Lucifer in the present tense of Isaiah's time -- "How art thou fallen from heaven, O Lucifer, son of the morning!  How art thou cut down to the ground, which didst weaken the nations!"  This is NOT to indicate that that present time was the moment of Lucifer's fall from heaven, whereby he was "cut down to the ground."  Rather, this is to indicate that Lucifer was at that present time in a fallen condition, being in a condition of "cut down to the ground," having at some time in the past entered into that fallen condition and still being in that fallen condition at that very present time.  Yet the grammatical usage of the word "how" for each of these two confrontational exclamations also presents a question concerning "how" (in the past) Lucifer came to be in that present condition of "fallen from heaven" and "cut down to the ground."  This is the question that Isaiah 14:13, beginning with the explanatory conjunction "for," proceeds to answer.

3.  The grammatically past tense statement with which Isaiah 14:12 concludes, "which didst weaken the nations," would indicate that at some time in the past, (according to the context) after the moment wherein he (past tense) fell from heaven and was (past tense) "cut down to the ground, he engaged in the activity of weakening the nations.

2.  Isaiah 14:13 reveals the answer to the question "how" that was presented in Isaiah 14:12, and thus speaks concerning the moment in the past wherein Lucifer fell from heaven and was "cut down to the ground" -- "For thou hast said in thine heart, I will ascend into heaven, I will exalt my throne above the stars of God: I will sit also upon the mount of the congregation, in the sides of the north: I will ascend above the heights of the clouds; I will be like the most High."  Furthermore, the present tense "I will" statements would reveal the very thoughts that Lucifer was thinking at that moment in the past whereby ("how") he came to be "fallen from heaven" and "cast down to the ground."

In conclusion, we might view this in three steps, as follows:

Step #1:  The fall itself in the past -- "For thou hast said . . ., I will . . . ."
Step #2:  The activity of weakening the nations in the past, but after the fall itself -- "which didst weaken the nations."
Step #3:  The condition in the present of being fallen and cast down -- Thou art "fallen from heaven;" Thou art "cast down to the ground." 
Step #3 sub-point:  "How" did you come to be in the present in this fallen and cast down condition -- Answer found in Step #1.

I know that this answer was a little "heavy" on grammar.  However, your question was specifically a grammatical question concerning the tenses of the various statements of the passage.  I pray that my answer was not overly confusing, but was actually helpful.

Edited February 2, 2016 by Pastor Scott Markle
the "in conclusion" paragraph

[wretched]

18 minutes ago, Pastor Scott Markle said:

SoBrother Wretched,

Based upon the grammatical verb tenses, I would hold to the following:

1.  Isaiah 14:12 was spoken as a confrontational exclamation against Lucifer in the present tense of Isaiah's time -- "How art thou fallen from heaven, O Lucifer, son of the morning!  How art thou cut down to the ground, which didst weaken the nations!"  This is NOT to indicate that that present time was the moment of Lucifer's fall from heaven, whereby he was "cut down to the ground."  Rather, this is to indicate that Lucifer was at that present time in a fallen condition, being in a condition of "cut down to the ground," having at some time in the past entered into that fallen condition and still being in that fallen condition at that very present time.  Yet the grammatical usage of the word "how" for each of these two confrontational exclamations also presents a question concerning "how" (in the past) Lucifer came to be in that present condition of "fallen from heaven" and "cut down to the ground."  This is the question that Isaiah 14:13, beginning with the explanatory conjunction "for," proceeds to answer.

3.  The grammatically past tense statement with which Isaiah 14:12 concludes, "which didst weaken the nations," would indicate that at some time in the past, (according to the context) after the moment wherein he (past tense) fell from heaven and was (past tense) "cut down to the ground, he engaged in the activity of weakening the nations.

2.  Isaiah 14:13 reveals the answer to the question "how" that was presented in Isaiah 14:12, and thus speaks concerning the moment in the past wherein Lucifer fell from heaven and was "cut down to the ground" -- "For thou hast said in thine heart, I will ascend into heaven, I will exalt my throne above the stars of God: I will sit also upon the mount of the congregation, in the sides of the north: I will ascend above the heights of the clouds; I will be like the most High."  Furthermore, the present tense "I will" statements would reveal the very thoughts that Lucifer was thinking at that moment in the past whereby ("how") he came to be "fallen from heaven" and "cast down to the ground."

I know that this answer was a little "heavy" on grammar.  However, your question was specifically a grammatical question concerning the tenses of the various statements of the passage.  I pray that my answer was not overly confusing, but was actually helpful.

Not at all, I get it, very thorough brother and thanks

Edited February 2, 2016 by wretched

[John Young]

A lot of the prophetic verses about Satan contain elements of its past present and future. He was cursed (bit the dust ) and judged in the garden in the form of the snake because he tempted and deceived Eve. He is currently deceiving the nations and in the future he will be cast down. What confuses some people is the fact that prophetically God often speaks of theses things as if they have already taken place (Isaiah 46:10, Romans 4:17) but for us mortals is still in our future. For example Satan falling from heaven, mentioned in several prophetic histories/timelines, is spoken of it already happening in Isaiah 14:12, it just happening in Luke 10:18 but it is still a future event according to Revelation 12:9-12. 

Edited February 2, 2016 by John Young

[beameup]

29 minutes ago, John Young said:

A lot of the prophetic verses about Satan contain elements of its past present and future. He was cursed (bit the dust ) and judged in the garden in the form of the snake because he tempted and deceived Eve. He is currently deceiving the nations and in the future he will be cast down. What confuses some people is the fact that prophetically God often speaks of theses things as if they have already taken place (Isaiah 46:10, Romans 4:17) but for us mortals is still in our future. For example Satan falling from heaven, mentioned in several prophetic histories/timelines, is spoken of it already happening in Isaiah 14:12, it just happening in Luke 10:18 but it is still a future event according to Revelation 12:9-12. 

Many IFB Christians believe that Satan was cast out of the "Third Heaven" (where God dwells) already, and now is limited to the "Second Heaven" - being the stars & planets ("heavens"), and that he will be cast to the earth during the Tribulation (where he will be judged).  "Prince of the powers of the air" (Ephesians 2:2) would then refer to the "First Heaven" (atmosphere).

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I knew a man in Christ above fourteen years ago, (whether in the body, I cannot tell; or whether out of the body, I cannot tell: God knoweth;) such an one caught up to the third heaven.  2 Cor 12:2

Edited February 2, 2016 by beameup

[Invicta]

Lucifer is only used once in the bible and I know you will all disagree with me, but I do not think this refers to Satan at all, but to the King of Babylon, Vs 4 and 22.  

Nebuchadnezzar started of as God's Servant to punish Israel, Jer 25:9  Behold, I will send and take all the families of the north, saith the LORD, and Nebuchadrezzar the king of Babylon, my servant, and will bring them against this land, and against the inhabitants thereof, and against all these nations round about, and will utterly destroy them, and make them an astonishment, and an hissing, and perpetual desolations.
And the nations, Jer 27:6  And now have I given all these lands into the hand of Nebuchadnezzar the king of Babylon, my servant; and the beasts of the field have I given him also to serve him.

Nebuchadnezzar then raised himself towards Heaven Daniel 3:1 ¶  Nebuchadnezzar the king made an image of gold, whose height was threescore cubits, and the breadth thereof six cubits: he set it up in the plain of Dura, in the province of Babylon.  In the previous chapter he was told that he was the head of Gold.  It is quite possible that he took the whole image to refer to him and this great image of Gold was made to represent him or maybe his God Nebo which would be more or less the same thing. He also raised himself to heaven in Chapter 4.20  The tree that thou sawest, which grew, and was strong, whose height reached unto the heaven, and the sight thereof to all the earth;
21  Whose leaves were fair, and the fruit thereof much, and in it was meat for all; under which the beasts of the field dwelt, and upon whose branches the fowls of the heaven had their habitation:
22  It is thou, O king, that art grown and become strong: for thy greatness is grown, and reacheth unto heaven, and thy dominion to the end of the earth.  He was given a year in which no doubt he could have repented , but then 28 ¶  All this came upon the king Nebuchadnezzar.
29  At the end of twelve months he walked in the palace of the kingdom of Babylon.
30  The king spake, and said, Is not this great Babylon, that I have built for the house of the kingdom by the might of my power, and for the honour of my majesty?
31  While the word was in the king’s mouth, there fell a voice from heaven, saying, O king Nebuchadnezzar, to thee it is spoken; The kingdom is departed from thee.

 

 

[Pastor Scott Markle]

1 hour ago, John Young said:

A lot of the prophetic verses about Satan contain elements of its past present and future. He was cursed (bit the dust ) and judged in the garden in the form of the snake because he tempted and deceived Eve. He is currently deceiving the nations and in the future he will be cast down. What confuses some people is the fact that prophetically God often speaks of theses things as if they have already taken place (Isaiah 46:10, Romans 4:17) but for us mortals is still in our future. For example Satan falling from heaven, mentioned in several prophetic histories/timelines, is spoken of it already happening in Isaiah 14:12, it just happening in Luke 10:18 but it is still a future event according to Revelation 12:9-12. 

Brother Young,

I certainly appreciate your comment.  I post this simply to communicate my own viewpoint concerning a more precise understanding of Satan's "falling from heaven" as presented in Isaiah 14:12 & Luke 10:18 and of his "being cast down to the earth" as presented in Revelation 12:9-12.

1.  I believe that Isaiah 14:12 is precisely speaking concerning Satan's fall from his position in heaven as "the anointed cherub that covereth" and concerning his spiritually fallen condition as a rebellious sinner before the Lord God, fallen from his original, spiritual condition wherein he was "perfect" in all his ways from the day the Lord God had created him ("till iniquity was found" in him).

2.  I believe that Luke 10:18, being a past tense statement (concerning which our Lord does not appear to specify the particular moment of the past), refers to the same event as that of Isaiah 14:12.

3.  I believe that Revelation is precisely speaking concerning Satan's being permanently "cast out" of heaven "into the earth" so as never to be able to return unto heaven, which prophetic event I believe shall occur in the future at the mid-point of the 7 year Tribulation Period.

 

1 hour ago, beameup said:

Many IFB Christians believe that Satan was cast out of the "Third Heaven" (where God dwells) already, and now is limited to the "Second Heaven" - being the stars & planets ("heavens"), and that he will be cast to the earth during the Tribulation (where he will be judged).  "Prince of the powers of the air" (Ephesians 2:2) would then refer to the "First Heaven" (atmosphere).

(Note:  Well, it appears the Brother "Beameup" shall not receive this posting.  Yet the rest of you shall; therefore, I shall post it anyway.)

Except that God's Holy Word as inspired by God the Holy Spirit says the following in Revelation 12:10 -- "And I heard a loud voice saying in heaven, Now is come salvation, and strength, and the kingdom of our God, and the power of his Christ: for the accuser of our brethren is cast down, which accused them before our God day and night."  It is also worthy to note that the Lord God is ever referenced throughout the book of the Revelation as the One who sits upon the throne in heaven.

[Ronda]

1 hour ago, Invicta said:

Lucifer is only used once in the bible and I know you will all disagree with me, but I do not think this refers to Satan at all, but to the King of Babylon, Vs 4 and 22.  

Isaiah 14:12 How art thou fallen from heaven, O Lucifer, son of the morning! how art thou cut down to the ground, which didst weaken the nations!

(In context Job 38:4-7)
Job 38:4 Where wast thou when I laid the foundations of the earth? declare, if thou hast understanding.
5 Who hath laid the measures thereof, if thou knowest? or who hath stretched the line upon it?
6 Whereupon are the foundations thereof fastened? or who laid the corner stone thereof;
7 When the morning stars sang together, and all the sons of God shouted for joy?

Job 1:6 Now there was a day when the sons of God came to present themselves before the Lord, and Satan came also among them.
7 And the Lord said unto Satan, Whence comest thou? Then Satan answered the Lord, and said, From going to and fro in the earth, and from walking up and down in it.

Job 2:1 Again there was a day when the sons of God came to present themselves before the Lord, and Satan came also among them to present himself before the Lord.  2 And the Lord said unto Satan, From whence comest thou? And Satan answered the Lord, and said, From going to and fro in the earth, and from walking up and down in it.