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Jim_Alaska

Sister Ronda's Questions and My Answers

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Sister Ronda,

First I would like to preface my response to you by assuring you that there is no intention on my part to, as you said, “get mad at you”; “ridicule you”; “tear you to shreds”.

I would also like to add that I didn’t think that your questions “looked stupid” or were “silly questions”. They were very good and got your point across.

I am going to attempt to respond to your questions in blue text below the actual question. The only exception to this is where you denoted each question with the letters A;B;C;D; The question you designate as “B” in each scenario is not easily answered without great detail. In the case of your question designated as “B” in each scenario, I would like to answer it in detail at the end of my response to your questions because my answer will be the same in each instance.

I agree completely with this statement that you made: “Sometimes I think people think we can read their minds”. This is the problem with trying to provide short responses on a message forum. Many times any response to a complicated subject involves an actual study rather than a short response that assumes that everyone else understands the subject the same way you do.

I know this “preface” is getting long and drawn out, but would also like to add this thought: Because we are human and each one is an individual, no two are exactly alike. I say this because as individuals we learn and come to conclusions at different levels and times.

Hebrews speaks of this concept in this manner: “Heb 5:12 For when for the time ye ought to be teachers, ye have need that one teach you again which be the first principles of the oracles of God; and are become such as have need of milk, and not of strong meat. 13 For every one that useth milk is unskilful in the word of righteousness: for he is a babe.
 14 But strong meat belongeth to them that are of full age, even those who by reason of use have their senses exercised to discern both good and evil.”

I added this to show just one biblical example of our spiritual learning process. This is not to say that you are in this class or that I consider you in this class, I do not.

I know that there are those that will earnestly contend that they arrived at their conclusions of biblical truths through their own diligent study and were not influenced by the teaching of others. I personally believe that we are all influenced to some degree by the teaching we have received under Godly brothers and sisters, this belief is biblically sound. 2Tim 2:2 And the things that thou hast heard of me among many witnesses, the same commit thou to faithful men, who shall be able to teach others also. After all, this is what our church is all about. This is where the truth resides. “1Tim 3:15 But if I tarry long, that thou mayest know how thou oughtest to behave thyself in the house of God, which is the church of the living God, the pillar and ground of the truth.”

 

Brother "Jim_Alaska", I want to say this as respectfully as I can, but let me just say what popped into my head as soon as I got done reading your post:
"Whoa, Nellie... we've got horses running down 2 lanes here...slow down and reign them in, so I can see where these horses came from!"

I liked your analogy.

So now you are stating there are 2 Holy Spirits???
One that "baptizes" a group (the church)???
and one that "indwells" individuals???
Is this not the same Holy Spirit?
Or is this the SAME Holy Spirit, Yet you're stating that it happens at different times (the Baptism of the Holy spirit and the indwelling of the Holy Spirit)? Forgive my confusion... but you have indeed confused me on what exactly you believe.

I sure am not a charismatic, so let's throw that nonsense out the window for a minute...
I'm not the one talking about 2 different Holy Spirit here... Are you??? Before you get mad at me for saying that... I gotta say, I have some questions.

My answer to this first question is most assuredly no, I am not talking about two Holy Spirits. There is only one Holy Spirit who is fully capable of multi-tasking. A study of this subject will reveal the many different aspects of the work of the Holy Spirit.

First, let me tell you what I understand and believe (yes, you can ridicule and pick it apart if you'd like, but I will say it anyways) at least let me know which part you are picking apart!

I believe I received the Holy Spirit the very MOMENT I accepted Jesus as Lord and Savior (by grace through faith).(all of Romans 8)
I was baptized into the BODY OF CHRIST by that SAME Holy Spirit that very same moment. (1 Cor. 12:12-14
)
I believe that same Holy Spirit indwelt me from that moment on... (Eph. 1:13)
I would simply point out that sealing and indwelling are two different things, even though they happen at the same time. When I am saved I am both indwelt and sealed by the Holy Spirit.
And I can never lose this indwelling because by this SAME Holy Spirit that indwells me also seals me unto the day of redemption.(Eph. 4:30)
I am in total agreement with this statement.

As a side note: I happened to be a member "IN GOOD STANDING" of an IFB church prior to, and on the very day I accepted Christ... and received both the INDWELLING and BAPTISM of the Holy Spirit all at the same moment in time.
This is where the subject of the Baptism of the Holy Spirit gets complicated. See my detailed comments in my conclusion. But in short, the Indwelling of the Holy Spirit and the Baptism of the Holy Spirit are two vastly different things.
The Baptism of the Holy Spirit as taught in Acts 2:1  was a very specific one time event that empowered the first church. Are you saying that the example we find in this Scripture is what happened to you when you were baptized of the Holy Spirit? (I don’t think this is what you meant)
Acts 2:1  And when the day of Pentecost was fully come, they were all with one accord in one place.
 2 And suddenly there came a sound from heaven as of a rushing mighty wind, and it filled all the house where they were sitting.
 3 And there appeared unto them cloven tongues like as of fire, and it sat upon each of them.
 4 And they were all filled with the Holy Ghost, and began to speak with other tongues, as the Spirit gave them utterance.


As another side note: I was baptized (full immersion baptism) by the pastor of that very same IFB church I was a member "in good standing" of, and was water baptized, but it was about 5 years AFTER I accepted Christ. I do NOT believe that THAT was when I was baptized with the Holy Spirit, as I had already been baptized with the Holy Spirit the moment I accepted Christ.


And as a final side note: I was taught this at the same IFB church I was a member of and was later water baptized at... But I don't believe it because I was taught it. I believe it because scripture supports it (the same scripture I quoted above) for this dispensation (the age of grace) in which we all now reside.
So all OT controversy aside... we are dealing with (for the moment) how believer's receive the Holy Spirit (both indwelling AND baptism of) RIGHT NOW... and then I will happily resume the original discussion of OT believer's. But before I can even attempt to discuss OT believer's in respect to he Holy Spirit... I'd like to know just where you stand on THIS time period, the age of grace.

And before you attempt to tear me to shreds because the IFB church I attended didn't teach the same thing yours may, please let me say I need for you to answer some questions so I can figure out exactly what it IS you think all IFB churches should be teaching in regard to the Holy Spirit, because I do have to say I do not believe that all IFB (and I don't just mean the IFB I attended either) are teaching on the Holy Spirit the same way you are presenting it.
But before I can even say that... I need you to answer some easy questions for me so I will have a better understanding of exactly what you are saying, please.
Sometimes I think people think we can read their minds... and just assume we'd know what they were talking about before they even fully talked about it... so let's put it in lay-man's terms here, since at the beginning I said "Whoa, Nellie"... because I think Nellie the horse bucked me off in the pumpkin patch when I read your post.. (so to speak). So let's break it down into layman's terms, please.

Please be patient, and I am not ridiculing you... I just need some clarification here...
In YOUR opinion I would like to know:

Question #1:
Let's say Jane Doe accepted Christ as savior, and Jane wasn't a member of any church of any kind...
    A.  Did Jane receive the indwelling of the Holy Spirit the moment she accepted Christ?

I believe that every believer is indwelt by the Holy Spirit at the moment of salvation.
    
B.  Did Jane receive the baptism of the Holy Spirit the moment she accepted Christ?

C. Did Jane receive the baptism of the Holy Spirit the moment she was (fully immersed) water baptized?
No, she was simply baptized.

D. Did Jane receive the Holy Spirit the moment she became a member of a specific church?
No, she only joined a church. She already had the Holy Spirit at her moment of salvation.

Question #2:

Let's say John Doe accepted Christ as savior, and John was a member of a church (other than IFBBaptist... let's say Methodist or Southern Baptist... and for the sake of argument, let's say both of those churches (Methodist or Southern Baptist) were the traditional style, non-contemporary (for example no female pastors, no LGBT members, etc)
    A. Did John receive the indwelling of the Holy Spirit the moment he accepted Christ?

I believe that every believer is indwelt by the Holy Spirit at the moment of salvation.
    B. Did John receive the baptism of the Holy Spirit the moment he accepted Christ?

C. C. Did John receive the baptism of the Holy Spirit the moment he was (fully immersed) water baptized?
No, he was simply baptized.

Question #3:
Let's say Jerry Doe accepted Christ as savior, and Jerry was a member of an Independent Fundamental Baptist church...
    A. Did Jerry receive the indwelling of the Holy Spirit the moment he accepted Christ?

I believe that every believer is indwelt by the Holy Spirit at the moment of salvation.
    B. Did Jerry receive the baptism of the Holy Spirit the moment he accepted Christ?

C. C. Did Jerry receive the baptism of the Holy Spirit the moment he was (fully immersed) water baptized?
No, he was simply baptized.

I know these questions might look stupid to you... but I am very interested to know your answers...
I think I know how you MIGHT answer them, but I am not going to ASSUME anything here.
Once again, I am NOT ridiculing you... I am just not positive exactly what you believe and would like clarification.
If you would please answer my silly scenario questions above, it would help me understand. Thank you kindly.

Scriptural reference for my belief:

1 Cor. 12:12 "For as the body is one, and hath many members, and all the members of that one body, being many, are one body: so also is Christ."
 13 "For by one Spirit are we all baptized into one body, whether we be Jews or Gentiles, whether we be bond or free; and have been all made to drink into one Spirit."
I believe this to be water baptism, not the Baptism of the Holy Spirit. This is what happened when you were baptized in your church.
 14 "For the body is not one member, but many."
Each NT church is the body of Christ composed of many members in that location.

Ephesians 1:13 "In whom ye also trusted, after that ye heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation: in whom also after that ye believed, ye were sealed with that holy Spirit of promise,"
 14 "Which is the earnest of our inheritance until the redemption of the purchased possession, unto the praise of his glory."
Yes, we are sealed unto the day of redemption by the Holy Spirit, the Holy Spirit is the “earnest” of our inheritance. “Earnest” meaning the assurance by God that our redemption will be fulfilled. A good example of this is a real estate transaction, where “earnest” money is given as a promise to complete the transaction.

2 Cor. 1:21 "Now he which stablisheth us with you in Christ, and hath anointed us, is God;"
 22 "Who hath also sealed us, and given the earnest of the Spirit in our hearts."

Eph. 4:30 "And grieve not the holy Spirit of God, whereby ye are sealed unto the day of redemption."

*** I was going to quote from Romans 8 as well, but would have had to quote the entire chapter... consider it quoted as well.

At this point I would like to explain in detail why my answers to the questions you designated as “B” in your scenarios are all the same. This will hopefully clarify my belief regarding what the Baptism of the Holy Spirit consists of; why it is a one time occurrence and why it is not bestowed on individuals, but rather on the first church on Pentecost.

In Mat 3:11 we find John the Baptist’s prophesy of the coming Baptism of the Holy Spirit.
I indeed baptize you with water unto repentance: but he that cometh after me is mightier than I, whose shoes I am not worthy to bear: he shall baptize you with the Holy Ghost, and with fire:

In Luke 24;49 we see Jesus’ instruction to the first church to wait for the Baptism of the Holy Spirit: “And, behold, I send the promise of my Father upon you: but tarry ye in the city of Jerusalem, until ye be endued with power from on high.”

In Acts 1:4 we see the reassurance of Luke that this is indeed speaking of the Baptism of the Holy Spirit. And, being assembled together with them, commanded them that they should not depart from Jerusalem, but wait for the promise of the Father, which, saith he, ye have heard of me.

 5 For John truly baptized with water; but ye shall be baptized with the Holy Ghost not many days hence. In context He is speaking to and of the church.

Still speaking to His church He says: “Acts 1:8 But ye shall receive power, after that the Holy Ghost is come upon you: and ye shall be witnesses unto me both in Jerusalem, and in all Judaea, and in Samaria, and unto the uttermost part of the earth. The first sentence is the “power” or authority that He conferred on His church on the day of Pentecost.

We find the fulfillment of the prophecy of John the Baptist and well as Jesus Himself in the second chapter of Acts. This is the Baptism of the Holy Spirit. Acts 2:1 And when the day of Pentecost was fully come, they were all with one accord in one place.
They were gathered together in church capacity. This is where context comes in; the baptism of the Holy Spirit was given to the church not to individuals.

2 And suddenly there came a sound from heaven as of a rushing mighty wind, and it filled all the house where they were sitting.
Scenario: Those that composed the first church were “in” the house. The rushing mighty wind “filled” the house. A baptism is an immersion; if the wind filled the house then those in it had to be immersed in it, thus a baptism. Not a water baptism, but a Holy Spirit baptism.

3 And there appeared unto them cloven tongues like as of fire, and it sat upon each of them.
Verses three and four are Divine proof that the Baptism of the Holy Spirit was from God.

4 And they were all filled with the Holy Ghost, and began to speak with other tongues, as the Spirit gave them utterance.
These four verses define exactly what the Baptism of the Holy Spirit is. My belief is that according to this definition individuals that claim to be baptized with the Holy Spirit in individual capacity do not conform to this definition. Where is the rushing mighty wind, the cloven tongues of fire or the speaking in tongues? This is all a part of what the Baptism of the Holy Spirit is.

I think that there are people that do not make a distinction between wordings when they read things such as; the Holy Spirit being the “earnest of our inheritance”; “sealed with the Holy Spirit”; being “baptized into one body by the Spirit”; “filled with the Holy Spirit” and other Scriptures, think of these things as being the Baptism of the Holy Spirit.

I believe that they are distinctly different. The Baptism of the Holy Spirit was unique, it was a one time occurrence, happened at the exact time appointed, was foretold in prophesy, and was fulfilled in it’s entirety in Acts chapter two; a one time event.

It gave the new church the power and authority that Jesus meant it to have. We see the importance of it when we read the words of Jesus telling them to wait at Jerusalem until they were endued with power from on high.

Now, while I maintain that this was a one time event, I also maintain that the power or authority of the Baptism of the Holy Spirit is an ongoing work of the Holy Spirit. I might better explain it this way: The authority bestowed on His church at Jerusalem did not begin and end on the day of Pentecost. Jesus promised to build an institution He called His church. He also promised that the gates of hell would not prevail against it. If this is so, and I believe it is, then His church as an institution is still in the world today. Every NT church has the power and authority that was bestowed on the church as an institution on the day of Pentecost. This is what I mean when I say that the Baptism of the Holy Spirit was a one time event and an ongoing work.

A good illustration would be the sacrifice of Christ on the cross. Scripture tells us it was a one time event, “once for all”. His sacrifice is also ongoing in that, every time another person accepts that sacrifice the power of that sacrifice saves his soul.

I am sorry to be so long winded Ronda, but this is exactly the reason I said that subjects such as this do not lend themselves to short answers on a message forum. I hope this clarifies my position for you and has adequately answered your questions.

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30 minutes ago, Jim_Alaska said:

As another side note: I was baptized (full immersion baptism) by the pastor of that very same IFB church I was a member "in good standing" of, and was water baptized, but it was about 5 years AFTER I accepted Christ. I do NOT believe that THAT was when I was baptized with the Holy Spirit, as I had already been baptized with the Holy Spirit the moment I accepted Christ.

I don't mean to hijack this thread from the get go but I want you consider something for just a moment.

I have heard people say similar things and I have seen people over the years who have actually done this very same thing. Some say they got saved at 8 years old but finally understood their salvation many years later; some say they have been saved for 10, 20 years and finally understand the Word of God unlike any time prior, etc...

Has it ever dawned on you that perhaps the profession of faith, the repeat after me prayer or whatever you did 5 years prior was not salvation at all but simply a seed sown or being watered?

Put your thinking cap on and try to remember your mindset when you finally decided to be baptized. Probably cloudy now but could it possibly be that when this baptism idea dawned on you 5 years later it was the result of a convicting sermon or discussion you had heard or had about the Gospel??

I wonder if that was when you really got saved? Keep in mind that there is no "sinners prayer" in the Bible apart from "God, be merciful to me, a sinner"?

Not challenging you in any way, and not in any way asserting that water baptism saves but just food for thought....After all, think for a minute...what made you decide after 5 years to finally get baptized to show the world you were saved?

 

 

 

Edited by wretched

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Brother Wretched, you need to be a bit more careful with the quoted text. In this question and answer format are both Ronda's question and my answers under them. Your quote says you were quoting me, but you are actually quoting Ronda's Text.

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Wretched, I was saved in 2007.  I tried to get baptized in the RCC but that never worked out.  After two years we joined a rock-n-roll church and I tried to get baptized again, that didn't work out either.  Then in 2010 our family united with a New Testament Church of the kind that Christ built and died for and was finally scripturally baptized.  

Looking back, I knew instinctively that I had to get baptized, not to be saved, but in obedience as a profession of faith.  The Holy Ghost kept steering me and guiding me to scriptural baptism with a scriptural church, such took near three years to learn and I thank the Holy Spirit of God for being patient with me.

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Wretched does raise a good point with regards to professions of faith, especially when they come from young children. Many do come to acknowledge they thought they were saved at 7 or 9 years of age (or whatever age) but then actually recognized they were not saved and were actually born again in their 20s, 30s or whenever. Yet there are also those who insist they were saved when they walked the aisle and repeated a "sinners prayer" at 5 years old but never managed to "get it" or "surrender to Christ" until 30 years later. Not a shred of actual evidence of being saved from 5 to 35 other than thinking repeating that prayer when they were 5 covered it all or that a pastor baptized them when they were 5 so that has to mean they were saved.

With regards to Baptism, in my own case I was saved in 1981 but it was several years later before I was baptized. Part of this was due to no one ever pointing out the true meaning and importance of baptism and my reluctance back then to do or be involved in anything public. However, when I was finally introduced to a fine IFB pastor and began attending his church and men's Bible study I learned the Bible truth of baptism and that pastor baptized me.

Unfortunately I know many people who cling to the fact they were baptized as assurance they are going to heaven. Some believe the fact they were baptized is some kind of proof they were born again, others think the act of baptism saved them, but both are wrong and most are yet lost in their sins.

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Dear "Wretched", the part you quoted was my statement... However, I will answer your statement above, even though it will likely cause controversy. I have no doubt of my salvation and it was 5 years prior to being baptized (in water) and that I was baptized by the Holy Spirit (and indwelt by the Holy Spirit) the very moment I accepted Christ. If I had physically died within the 5 year span between accepting Christ and being water baptized, I have no doubt that I would have gone to be with the Lord. 

When I accepted Christ I understood that I was a sinner (Romans 3:23 For all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God ), I understood that there were no "good works" I could do to "save myself". I understood Ephesians 2:8 "For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:
9 Not of works, lest any man should boast."  
I was young but I did fully understand those things.  I also understood that Jesus "took my place" and paid for my sins. (Romans 3:25 "Whom God hath set forth to be a propitiation through faith in his blood, to declare his righteousness for the remission of sins that are past, through the forbearance of God" ), at the time I didn't know the definition of the word "propitiation", but I fully understood the concept.  I also understood that Jesus is the ONE and ONLY way of salvation... that there is no other way to God, John 14:16 "Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me."  I also understood that God sent Jesus into the world and that by grace (not works) in faith and belief in Jesus and what He did on the cross, when I believed in and accepted Him I would have eternal life (after physical death or rapture) with Him, and I also understood that had I CHOSE not to believe, I would have been condemned to hell (John 3:16-18). On that basis and understanding I accepted Jesus as savior, once again, it was 5 years prior to water baptism. No, there is not a certain prayer a person can repeat after someone else to accept Christ... they simply have to understand and truly believe. The gospel of grace by faith in Jesus Christ is a concept so perfect in it's simplicity that it doesn't take a brain surgeon to figure it out... even children can understand, believe, and accept Christ. 

Why didn't I get water baptized right away? Because my parents forbid it. I was 7 years old when I accepted Christ (and no I didn't say a "repeat-after-me" prayer), I was 12 years old when I was water baptized. Many people attempt to say that children cannot fully grasp the concept of salvation at age 7, but I can attest to the fact that I did! I'm sure some would argue the point and claim I would have to be of a certain age to fully understand, but the age of reason does not occur at the same time for all people.  I know what I know to be the truth. I did have the desire to be water baptized, but not being allowed (by parents) is what deterred me. However, I have said, and will always say... that water baptism is not a PART of salvation in any way! Had I died at age 8, 9, 10, or 11 I would have gone to be with the Lord. Now there are those who claim the "age of reason" is not until age 12 or 13 (and will use certain scripture to supposedly "prove" the point), but I believe the "age of reason" comes at different times for all people... there is not a pre-determined special age. I can say that other children at age 7 may not have understood or grasped the concept... I would also say there are teenagers who do not yet understand or grasp the concept... but whatever age the "age of reason" happens, when that individual person comes under conviction of being a sinner, they have a choice to make... either that person can try to justify their sins and attempt to make to themselves their own "god", OR they can believe in Jesus who truly is the one and only way of salvation and the only one way to have their sins dealt with and forgiven. It all comes down to that (in a nutshell) an individual person will either believe or reject. They will either believe on Jesus (and not perish but have eternal life) or they will not believe and they will reject Jesus and what He did (and be condemned) just as John 3:16-18 clearly shows...

16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life. 17 For God sent not his Son into the world to condemn the world; but that the world through him might be saved. 18 He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.
 

I would even go further to say... that since I understood the concept of salvation by grace and faith through Jesus (and He alone, with no works involved) at age 7, if I would have then rejected that truth at that age (even though it was under the age of 12 which some people claim to be the "perfect" age of reason) I would say had I rejected the truth at age 7, and had physically died at age 8... I would now be in hell because if I heard the truth, understood the truth, and if I had rejected the truth (and rejected Christ) I would be condemned.

Now I do believe that children at a young age (before the age of reason) if they die before being able to understand the truth... they would go to heaven. But I will never agree that children have a particular age of reason and that the age is the same for all children. So if you all want to argue that you can... like I said, I know how I understood (at age 7) all the truths I put forth. And I have no doubt that from that moment on (whether or not I had been water baptized) that I am eternally secure in Christ.  

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Brother Jim,  I do again thank you for the time and careful consideration you gave in answering all of my questions.  I do very much appreciate it. 

I respectfully do not agree, but I do (now) fully understand how you arrived at your conclusion (as we've discussed prior in other threads, I have a different understanding dispensationally of some of those verses). And again, I would not have been able to understand your conclusion had you not taken the time to fully explain it. It's aggravating when people assume we know what they are talking about without them explaining what it is exactly and/or how they arrived at their conclusion. No one can read minds... and so I thank you again because your answer was courteous and the I thank you also for your time involved in answering!!! There are likely others who do not agree with your conclusion as well, but for different reasons than I. I do hope they will also answer as courteously as you did. 

 

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12 hours ago, Jim_Alaska said:

Brother Wretched, you need to be a bit more careful with the quoted text. In this question and answer format are both Ronda's question and my answers under them. Your quote says you were quoting me, but you are actually quoting Ronda's Text.

I beg your pardon Jim and I see Rhonda caught it. Thanks

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10 minutes ago, Ronda said:

Dear "Wretched", the part you quoted was my statement... However, I will answer your statement above, even though it will likely cause controversy. I have no doubt of my salvation and it was 5 years prior to being baptized (in water) and that I was baptized by the Holy Spirit (and indwelt by the Holy Spirit) the very moment I accepted Christ. If I had physically died within the 5 year span between accepting Christ and being water baptized, I have no doubt that I would have gone to be with the Lord. 

When I accepted Christ I understood that I was a sinner (Romans 3:23 For all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God ), I understood that there were no "good works" I could do to "save myself". I understood Ephesians 2:8 "For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:
9 Not of works, lest any man should boast."  
I was young but I did fully understand those things.  I also understood that Jesus "took my place" and paid for my sins. (Romans 3:25 "Whom God hath set forth to be a propitiation through faith in his blood, to declare his righteousness for the remission of sins that are past, through the forbearance of God" ), at the time I didn't know the definition of the word "propitiation", but I fully understood the concept.  I also understood that Jesus is the ONE and ONLY way of salvation... that there is no other way to God, John 14:16 "Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me."  I also understood that God sent Jesus into the world and that by grace (not works) in faith and belief in Jesus and what He did on the cross, when I believed in and accepted Him I would have eternal life (after physical death or rapture) with Him, and I also understood that had I CHOSE not to believe, I would have been condemned to hell (John 3:16-18). On that basis and understanding I accepted Jesus as savior, once again, it was 5 years prior to water baptism. No, there is not a certain prayer a person can repeat after someone else to accept Christ... they simply have to understand and truly believe. The gospel of grace by faith in Jesus Christ is a concept so perfect in it's simplicity that it doesn't take a brain surgeon to figure it out... even children can understand, believe, and accept Christ. 

Why didn't I get water baptized right away? Because my parents forbid it. I was 7 years old when I accepted Christ (and no I didn't say a "repeat-after-me" prayer), I was 12 years old when I was water baptized. Many people attempt to say that children cannot fully grasp the concept of salvation at age 7, but I can attest to the fact that I did! I'm sure some would argue the point and claim I would have to be of a certain age to fully understand, but the age of reason does not occur at the same time for all people.  I know what I know to be the truth. I did have the desire to be water baptized, but not being allowed (by parents) is what deterred me. However, I have said, and will always say... that water baptism is not a PART of salvation in any way! Had I died at age 8, 9, 10, or 11 I would have gone to be with the Lord. Now there are those who claim the "age of reason" is not until age 12 or 13 (and will use certain scripture to supposedly "prove" the point), but I believe the "age of reason" comes at different times for all people... there is not a pre-determined special age. I can say that other children at age 7 may not have understood or grasped the concept... I would also say there are teenagers who do not yet understand or grasp the concept... but whatever age the "age of reason" happens, when that individual person comes under conviction of being a sinner, they have a choice to make... either that person can try to justify their sins and attempt to make to themselves their own "god", OR they can believe in Jesus who truly is the one and only way of salvation and the only one way to have their sins dealt with and forgiven. It all comes down to that (in a nutshell) an individual person will either believe or reject. They will either believe on Jesus (and not perish but have eternal life) or they will not believe and they will reject Jesus and what He did (and be condemned) just as John 3:16-18 clearly shows...

16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life. 17 For God sent not his Son into the world to condemn the world; but that the world through him might be saved. 18 He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.
 

I would even go further to say... that since I understood the concept of salvation by grace and faith through Jesus (and He alone, with no works involved) at age 7, if I would have then rejected that truth at that age (even though it was under the age of 12 which some people claim to be the "perfect" age of reason) I would say had I rejected the truth at age 7, and had physically died at age 8... I would now be in hell because if I heard the truth, understood the truth, and if I had rejected the truth (and rejected Christ) I would be condemned.

Now I do believe that children at a young age (before the age of reason) if they die before being able to understand the truth... they would go to heaven. But I will never agree that children have a particular age of reason and that the age is the same for all children. So if you all want to argue that you can... like I said, I know how I understood (at age 7) all the truths I put forth. And I have no doubt that from that moment on (whether or not I had been water baptized) that I am eternally secure in Christ.  

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Brother Jim,  I do again thank you for the time and careful consideration you gave in answering all of my questions.  I do very much appreciate it. 

I respectfully do not agree, but I do (now) fully understand how you arrived at your conclusion (as we've discussed prior in other threads, I have a different understanding dispensationally of some of those verses). And again, I would not have been able to understand your conclusion had you not taken the time to fully explain it. It's aggravating when people assume we know what they are talking about without them explaining what it is exactly and/or how they arrived at their conclusion. No one can read minds... and so I thank you again because your answer was courteous and the I thank you also for your time involved in answering!!! There are likely others who do not agree with your conclusion as well, but for different reasons than I. I do hope they will also answer as courteously as you did. 

 

Hi Rhonda, no argument just food for thought.

Not only is the Word the guide and instruction to come to God and live for God but it is also given to us as examples to follow.

There is only one example of anyone getting saved without baptism soon thereafter (the thief on the cross). The instructions of Christ are quite clear in His commission to us and it definitely includes water baptism. God through Paul warned against misusing baptism as factional but nowhere does he say not to follow the Lord in baptism as physical evidence of saving faith.

I think reasonable reasons why not would be ignorance of the need (in Johns case) or inability to get it done (in Swaths case). The thief on the cross was the only example of no baptism after salvation but unfortunately the proof text for most people to not do it. It is obvious the thief was unable to get it done. This is our failure to follow Jesus' command in His Commission to us. I believe the parable of the sower comes into play here. I can also say from much experience that I have yet to see anyone grow an inch in the Lord until they were baptized (there is a difference between attending and learning Bible terms in your head and growing in your heart). The religious lost attend faithfully and know Bible terms.

On the children issue the same applies: there is absolutely no example anywhere where a child got saved in the Bible. Nor is there a single example anywhere where a child is given the Gospel. Nor is there a single example anywhere where we are commanded to preach to children the Gospel. Suffer and forbid them not is the opposite of preaching to them by the way. Jesus says in the passage forbid them not for of such is the Kingdom of God. Think back for a moment: have you ever seen a child whom after being told all about the Lord Jesus who loves them and died for them, actually look you in the eye and say NO, I DON'T BELIEVE IT?

Anyone who has raised children can easily attest that the onset of puberty is when they form their own opinions and yours as a parent matters less and less to them. So, what are they repenting from if their opinions on God and anything else are the parents opinion? The Bible also clearly indicates puberty as being the point at which our Lord Himself became self-aware and started preaching in the synagogues, jewish Bar Mitzvah is another clue. Raise up a child in the way they should go and when they are old, they will not depart from it,  is another.

Without true heart felt repentance sparked by the Spirit, there is no salvation. A seed and watering, yes = salvation at that time, I doubt it, it is not Scriptural but at the same time it is not necessarily unScriptural either. I just don't think it is reasonable to believe. I think what we generally term as rededication to the Lord, is actually the point of true faith, repentance and salvation whereas what they did earlier on in life was simply head belief and seeds sown or watered. I fear we have created generations of tares in our own churches by pressuring or bribing children to say a prayer when they could not possibly be repenting.

Then again, you could possibly have been an early bloomer as you say :)

But once again, food for thought only

 

 

 

 

 

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Touching upon what Wretched mentioned regarding the biblical example of those born again being immediately baptized: that's very rarely the case today. In fact, many churches/pastors won't baptize a new believer until they have completed a series of classes or lived good enough for a certain period of time to the pastor/church satisfaction as proof they are saved, or until a certain date which has been set aside for baptism.

In so many ways our churches and our lives fail to follow the biblical model (as, once again, Wretched has pointed out elsewhere).

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2 hours ago, wretched said:

On the children issue the same applies: there is absolutely no example anywhere where a child got saved in the Bible. Nor is there a single example anywhere where a child is given the Gospel. Nor is there a single example anywhere where we are commanded to preach to children the Gospel. Suffer and forbid them not is the opposite of preaching to them by the way. Jesus says in the passage forbid them not for of such is the Kingdom of God. Think back for a moment: have you ever seen a child whom after being told all about the Lord Jesus who loves them and died for them, actually look you in the eye and say NO, I DON'T BELIEVE IT?

Anyone who has raised children can easily attest that the onset of puberty is when they form their own opinions and yours as a parent matters less and less to them. So, what are they repenting from if their opinions on God and anything else are the parents opinion? The Bible also clearly indicates puberty as being the point at which our Lord Himself became self-aware and started preaching in the synagogues, jewish Bar Mitzvah is another clue. Raise up a child in the way they should go and when they are old, they will not depart from it,  is another.

Just because there is no example anywhere in the Bible where a child got saved doesn't mean that a child is unable to get saved.  There is no "age of reason"/age of accountability mentioned in the Bible either. As far as there being a command "to preach to children the Gospel" (Bolding is mine), that is an inaccurate statement.  According to the Great Commission in Mark's Gospel:  Mark 16:15 And he said unto them, Go ye into all the world, and preach the gospel to every creature "Every creature" would include children.  There are some 5 year old children that have a better understanding of the Gospel than some 20 or 30 year old adult.  Who are we to determine if a person will or will not understand the Gospel of salvation?  Therefore a 7 year old is perfectly capable of understanding the Gospel.  Don't underestimate the capability of a child to fully understand the Gospel!

RE: Jim_Alaska 's post (too long to quote).

When Did The Church Begin?

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Okay peeps, lol.  I could answer all those with numerous answers, oh my... BUT we are de-railing brother Jim's post here.
Let's please get back on topic here. (IF anyone wants to starts a thread on when children can/cannot accept Christ as savior we can do it on a new thread if you want)

Brother Jim was asked a series of questions by me earlier in the month.
The topic was the Holy Ghost, and the questions were specific.

You can read above in brother Jim's post where I made statements and/or asked questions, and he responded (very well and in a courteous thoughtful manner) in a way which I could then understand exactly what he believes and why.
(You can read all of that above, brother Jim answered in blue type)

So to return to the topic started. 
#A- we agreed that every believer is indwelt by the Holy Spirit at the moment of salvation.
#C- we agreed that no-one received the Holy Spirit during water baptism (and water baptism is a separate event from salvation,and salvation is not contingent upon water baptism).

BUT when we got to question #B and to paraphrase my own self slightly... the question was:
(Does a person receive) "the baptism of the Holy Spirit the moment he/she accepted Christ?"

His answer (in part) was this: 

19 hours ago, Jim_Alaska said:

my belief regarding what the Baptism of the Holy Spirit consists of; why it is a one time occurrence and why it is not bestowed on individuals, but rather on the first church on Pentecost.

and he followed with scripture for how he arrived at his conclusion. You can read all of that above.

I did not agree for reasons which have to do with a dispensational aspect. I don't bring that up to argue dispensations... quite the contrary. I bring it up as MY reason for respectfully disagreeing with brother Jim's conclusion on the Baptism of the Holy Spirit.

However, I would like to know what others believe as well in regard to question #B... (Pastor Markle has made an answer for this on another thread, so I understand his viewpoint). However, I wonder if all other here have the same viewpoint and belief?

Question #B: Does a person (male or female) receive the BAPTISM of the HOLY SPIRIT the moment they (individually) accept Christ?
What say ye all? 

And now a NEW question (if I may be so bold, brother Jim, since this is the same topic at hand I hope you won't be offended):

The new question is this... Read the following verse first please:
1 Corinthians 12:12-14 12"For as the body is one, and hath many members, and all the members of that one body, being many, are one body: so also is Christ."
 13 "For by one Spirit are we all baptized into one body, whether we be Jews or Gentiles, whether we be bond or free; and have been all made to drink into one Spirit."
*** brother Jim's answer was: " I believe this to be water baptism, not the Baptism of the Holy Spirit. This is what happened when you were baptized in your church. "

and verse 14:"For the body is not one member, but many."
*** brother Jim's answer was:  " Each NT church is the body of Christ composed of many members in that location ".

So my additional new question is this: Do you all have the same understanding/belief in the verses in 1 Cor. 12:12-14 ?? What say ye all?

And I also want to commend brother Jim for explaining very well, and in detail. his answer. His courteous manner in answering is also commendable! Also, I wanted to note that I only quoted PART of his answers... his full answer is at the top of the thread, well written, well thought out answer and scriptural notation as well! I would like to hear others answers as well (with scriptural reference, if you would be so kind). WHY??? Because although we are all IFB here, it is apparent we each were taught somewhat differently, as well as our own personal studies (hopefully with prayerful asking of the Lord to lead us with the Holy Spirit to guide us) have also contributed to our different responses. I am interested to know how others here believe on this very issue of the Holy Spirit and (in particular) the Baptism of the Holy Spirit. Pastor Markle also did an exemplary job of answering these types of questions on a previous thread, started by a different person, in reference to the Holy Spirit. And I had at first thought that Pastor Markle's answer was possibly the same conclusion/belief for many here on the forum, but instead of ASSUMING that to be the case, I much prefer to hear from each person their own belief on the matter, and how they arrived at it  by scripture. Since  Pastor Markle and I come to close to the same conclusion/belief (not completely, but close), and then when brother Jim brought out his belief/conclusion... and noting the differences, I began to wonder if all/any others here believe the same as well, in regard to the Holy Spirit and the Baptism of the Holy Spirit in particular.  It's a long-winded way of saying WHAT DO YOU BELIEVE? But I feel I had to add that statement because otherwise, my motives are sometimes questioned? So I wanted to nip that in the bud beforehand so we can discuss the Baptism of the Holy Spirit instead of my motives for asking the question (having just given my motive), please.

 

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To All,

Indeed, I have presented some explanation concerning the "baptism of the Holy Spirit" in another thread (here & here).

To Brother Jim,

I do wish to engage somewhat of your original posting; however, at the present my time is restricted.  I ask for your patience.

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Brother Scott,

Please take all the time you need, your pastoral duties are much more important than engaging in discussions such as this on message forums. I would like to add that I do enjoy your thoughts and studies that you present when you do have time for them.

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20 hours ago, LindaR said:

Just because there is no example anywhere in the Bible where a child got saved doesn't mean that a child is unable to get saved.  There is no "age of reason"/age of accountability mentioned in the Bible either. As far as there being a command "to preach to children the Gospel" (Bolding is mine), that is an inaccurate statement.  According to the Great Commission in Mark's Gospel:  Mark 16:15 And he said unto them, Go ye into all the world, and preach the gospel to every creature "Every creature" would include children.  There are some 5 year old children that have a better understanding of the Gospel than some 20 or 30 year old adult.  Who are we to determine if a person will or will not understand the Gospel of salvation?  Therefore a 7 year old is perfectly capable of understanding the Gospel.  Don't underestimate the capability of a child to fully understand the Gospel!

RE: Jim_Alaska 's post (too long to quote).

When Did The Church Begin?

Well Linda, that is what the phrase food for thought means, it preceded and concluded my post.

I will say this though and let it go. It is not wise nor accurate to base any doctrine or belief on what is not contained in Scripture or on assumption and you are doing both here authoritively and not as food for thought.

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20 hours ago, LindaR said:

Just because there is no example anywhere in the Bible where a child got saved doesn't mean that a child is unable to get saved.  There is no "age of reason"/age of accountability mentioned in the Bible either. As far as there being a command "to preach to children the Gospel" (Bolding is mine), that is an inaccurate statement.  According to the Great Commission in Mark's Gospel:  Mark 16:15 And he said unto them, Go ye into all the world, and preach the gospel to every creature "Every creature" would include children.  There are some 5 year old children that have a better understanding of the Gospel than some 20 or 30 year old adult.  Who are we to determine if a person will or will not understand the Gospel of salvation?  Therefore a 7 year old is perfectly capable of understanding the Gospel.  Don't underestimate the capability of a child to fully understand the Gospel!

RE: Jim_Alaska 's post (too long to quote).

When Did The Church Begin?

I will say just this and let you have your way. I preceded and concluded my post with the phrase "food for thought".

You responded with seeming authority in your opinion based on what "is not" contained in Scripture and several assumptions I suppose based on your extensive child rearing experiences. Basing doctrine or belief on what is not in Scripture and several faulty assumptions is hardly sound Bible interpretation. At the very best your opinion is simply food for thought also without any mention whatsoever in Scripture. Besides the issue was never whether a child can understand that Jesus loves them, they all understand that, the issue is true repentance.

Back to business

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