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Does God allow alcohol?


Guest Robert Swanson

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I accept what Scripture says.

 

it says Look not upon the wine.

The wine my Jesus made was not alcoholic.  If your Jesus made alcohol, he is not the sinless sacrifice needed for the redemption of mankind.  

 

Bartenders are robbers of home, health and life.  Apparently the god of this world has so many blinded to that reality.  With subtilty, he tells his servants, "Did not God's Word say, Look thou not,...?  God doesn't want abstinence."

 

And thousands believed the lie.

 

Edited by Standing Firm In Christ
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2 hours ago, Standing Firm In Christ said:

 

 

it says Look not upon the wine.

 

Here is the whole section of drunkeness in Proverbs 23

29 Who hath woe? who hath sorrow? who hath contentions? who hath babbling? who hath wounds without cause? who hath redness of eyes?

30 They that tarry long at the wine; they that go to seek mixed wine.

31 Look not thou upon the wine when it is red, when it giveth his colour in the cup, when it moveth itself aright.

32 At the last it biteth like a serpent, and stingeth like an adder.

33 Thine eyes shall behold strange women, and thine heart shall utter perverse things.

34 Yea, thou shalt be as he that lieth down in the midst of the sea, or as he that lieth upon the top of a mast.

35 They have stricken me, shalt thou say, and I was not sick; they have beaten me, and I felt it not: when shall I awake? I will seek it yet again.

previously in the chapter the son is given instructions in wisdom concerning issues of life, wild women and respecting his parents etc: when it gets to this point. Solomon deals with the issue of drunkeness. He starts to describe the one who has drunken enough in vs. 29-30 In vs 31-32 he is essentially saying that the drinker has drunk enough that it's time to stop. In vs 33-35 he is describing the attributes of one who is drunk and and how he will be when he is awakened. This is not somebody drinking wine at a wedding per se'. It doesn't just say don't look at the wine, there is more to this section of Scripture than that one part of the verse.

 

2 hours ago, Standing Firm In Christ said:

 

The wine my Jesus made was not alcoholic.  If your Jesus made alcohol, he is not the sinless sacrifice needed for the redemption of mankind.  

 

We've gone over this; see my above explanation. Wine drinking was an acceptable practice in those days and now. Jesus made the best wine. As by the wedding governor's statement, which you ignore. You still haven't found a verse that states that wine is to be boiled down, though you claimed this early on. You have claimed that strong drink meant coffee, it is apparent that you will do anything but admit what others have already admitted here. That wine in Scripture was alcoholic, you will make false claims about our Savior being sinful by performing his first miracle. You are the one denying Christ here. 

Its one thing to not want to drink or advise  others not to partake, that's your choice. But to blatantly misuse the Scriptures and try to make the Scriptures say something it doesn't is poor hermeneutics.

Edited by Christ Follower
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The "who" in verse 29 are the "they in verse 30... Not the "thou" in verse 31.  The " who" are already partaking of the alcohol.  The "thou" is not.  Instead, the "thou" is told to not even look upon it.

There is absolutely no connection between the drunkards in the former and the one instructed to abstain. in the latter.  Nor is there any indication that the person being addressed as "thou" in verse 31 is allowed to partake of the alcoholic beverage that the drunkards of verses 29-30 are drinking.

The instruction is to abstain from the alcoholic beverage altogether..

It is quite evident that the ones that  "blatantly misuse the Scriptures" are the ones advocating drinking of the fermented beverages.

 

And yes, if you are following a christ that made alcoholic beverages, who allows the drinking of alcoholic beverages, then, yes,... you are most certainly following a sinful christ, a deceiver.

 

Edited by Standing Firm In Christ
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9 hours ago, MountainChristian said:

Romans 14:21 It is good neither to eat flesh, nor to drink wine, nor any thing whereby thy brother stumbleth, or is offended, or is made weak.

This is why people abstain. In my area Christians (brother) stumble.

Proverbs 23 can apply to a diabetic and grape juice. As a diabetic if I drink too much grape juice I will appear drunk. My blood sugar will be so high my thought process and motor functions will be impaired. I can get a DWI because I didn't check my sugar. 

So Christian diabetics are made weak from grape juice, why isn't anyone calling for abstinence of juice?

 

Considering the epidemic of gluttony and obesity among Baptists perhaps we should abstain from all good tasting food too!

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6 hours ago, MountainChristian said:

Sadly you are very wrong. Even my doctor warned me. The police can't have mercy like they used to, because it lead to people being killed. Either getting themselves killed or driving badly and killing someone else. 

Dope can lead to a DWI and none of them show up on a breathalyzer. Pain meds can lead to a DWI, and none of them show up on a breathalyzer. 

Very true! I know a lady who had a bad blood sugar reaction one day and also some side effects from some prescribed medicine when her blood sugar dropped. She barely crossed over the line on the road, corrected and proceeded to drive within the lines a few blocks after that where a cop signaled her to pull over at the stop sign. She hadn't been drinking (she's a non-drinking Christian lady), explained to the officer about her blood sugar and medicine. The officer continued to insist she was drunk even after the breathalyzer showed she wasn't. She was arrested, charged with DWI, and has now endured almost a year of legal battles because she happens to be in a district with a "we convict everyone" judge.

Edited by John81
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Whoredom and wine and new wine take away the heart  [leb H3820 - inner man, mind, will, heart, understanding]
Oops!  Looks like "new wine" is alcoholic and not just "Welch's grape juice".  Back to the "drawing-board"  ref: Hosea 4:11
 
He [God] causeth the grass to grow for the cattle, and herb for the service of man: that he may bring forth food out of the earth;
And wine that maketh glad the heart of man, and oil to make his face to shine, and bread which strengtheneth man's heart. 
Psalm 104:14-15
 

δέ εἰ τὶς ἀγνοέω ἀγνοέω

 
 
Edited by beameup
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Quote

Here we can see that this text quite plainly speaks of the sins

 

of prostitution, luxurious, and sensual appetites. The remark that

 

 

these things take away the heart had no specific reference to

 

 

drunkenness, but to the fact that these sins of indulgent living

 

 

were responsible for the taking away of Israel's understanding of

 

 

the true and living God.  Even if this remark did specifically refer

 

 

to drunkenness, the text says that whoredom (prostitution) and

 

 

wine (Hebrew, yayin; usually intoxicating wine) and new wine (tirosh, fresh grape juice) was responsible for this.  And not solely

 

 

new wine or grape juice!

 

 

Wine that maketh the heart glad is not speaking of an alcoholic wine.  Grape juice, (also known as wine) has health-giving properties that strengthen the heart, making it glad.

 

 Wine in the Bible and the Scriptural Case for Total Abstinence, Leighton G Campbell.

Edited by Standing Firm In Christ
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1 hour ago, Standing Firm In Christ said:

wine (Hebrew, yayin; usually intoxicating wine) and new wine (tirosh, fresh grape juice) was responsible for this

Nope.  Hosea 4:11 clearly states that both "wine" and "new wine" are intoxicating. 

yayin H3196 (wine) which is "aged"

tiyrowsh H8492 (new wine) fresh, still bubbly with CO2

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4 hours ago, Standing Firm In Christ said:

The "who" in verse 29 are the "they in verse 30... Not the "thou" in verse 31.  The " who" are already partaking of the alcohol.  The "thou" is not.  Instead, the "thou" is told to not even look upon it.

The whole Proverb as a whole is a lesson against drunkeness.

 

4 hours ago, Standing Firm In Christ said:

 

There is absolutely no connection between the drunkards in the former and the one instructed to abstain. in the latter.  Nor is there any indication that the person being addressed as "thou" in verse 31 is allowed to partake of the alcoholic beverage that the drunkards of verses 29-30 are drinking.

Solomon is addressing his son, given instruction in wisdom. He is instructing, per the context of the visual lesson he is providing, of the foolishness sinful behavior of a drunkard, but yet, there is no real command to abstain from alcohol. Hence, you hang on this one verse that tells you not to look at it when it's red. So it okay to drink scotch or beer because it's amber in color?

 

4 hours ago, Standing Firm In Christ said:

 

The instruction is to abstain from the alcoholic beverage altogether..

No it's not, it's instruction to not get drunk. You know, people, saved and unsaved, do drink responsibly. (But I'm starting to bet the feeling that you don't believe anybody can do this, which is more or less how you view yourself, that you project to others)Like eating, it's  a gift from God, but don't be a glutton. It's a gift from God that we enjoy sex with our spouses, but we can't lust or fornicate with someone other than our spouse.

4 hours ago, Standing Firm In Christ said:


It is quite evident that the ones that  "blatantly misuse the Scriptures" are the ones advocating drinking of the fermented beverages.

It quite clear it is you that has failed to properly exegete Deuteronomy 14:26,(exept try to convince me that the Lord was talking about grape juice and coffee);Proverbs 24 and John 2. You have not even addressed Luke 7, where Jesus speaks of his own wine drinking. Also if you like, I can provide more verses where God uses wine aa blessing to Israel.

 

4 hours ago, Standing Firm In Christ said:

And yes, if you are following a christ that made alcoholic beverages, who allows

the drinking of alcoholic beverages, then, yes,... you are most certainly following a sinful christ, a deceiver.

Wow, you are more pious than Jesus!

Luke 7:

33 For John the Baptist came neither eating bread nor drinking wine; and ye say, He hath a devil.

34 The Son of man is come eating and drinking; and ye say, Behold a gluttonous man, and a winebibber, a friend of publicans and sinners!

 

Edited by Christ Follower
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34 minutes ago, beameup said:

Nope.  Hosea 4:11 clearly states that both "wine" and "new wine" are intoxicating. 

yayin H3196 (wine) which is "aged"

tiyrowsh H8492 (new wine) fresh, still bubbly with CO2

New wine, i.e.; freshly squeezed juice of the grape.

 

sorry, not alcoholic.

17 minutes ago, Christ Follower said:

The whole Proverb as a whole is a lesson against drunkeness.

 

Solomon is addressing his son, given instruction in wisdom. He is instructing, per the context of the visual lesson he is providing, of the foolishness sinful behavior of a drunkard, but yet, there is no real command to abstain from alcohol. Hence, you hang on this one verse that tells you not to look at it when it's red. So it okay to drink scotch or beer because it's amber in color?

 

No it's not, it's instruction to not get drunk. You know, people, saved and unsaved, do drink responsibly. (But I'm starting to bet the feeling that you don't believe anybody can do this, which is more or less how you view yourself, that you project to others)Like eating, it's  a gift from God, but don't be a glutton. It's a gift from God that we enjoy sex with our spouses, but we can't lust or fornicate with someone other than our spouse.

It quite clear it is you that has failed to properly exegete Deuteronomy 14:26,(exept try to convince me that the Lord was talking about grape juice and coffee);Proverbs 24 and John 2. You have not even addressed Luke 7, where Jesus speaks of his own wine drinking. Also if you like, I can provide more verses where God uses wine aa blessing to Israel.

 

Wow, you are more pious than Jesus!

Luke 7:

33 For John the Baptist came neither eating bread nor drinking wine; and ye say, He hath a devil.

34 The Son of man is come eating and drinking; and ye say, Behold a gluttonous man, and a winebibber, a friend of publicans and sinners!

 

Jesus was not drinking alcohol.  He was accused of drinking alcohol.  

 

The scoffers were falsely accusing Him,... Just as you do when you claim as they did that he drank alcohol.

 

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Here in America there are very few who drink alcohol infused drinks for a refreshing small drink or health. In America most people who drink any form of alcohol do so for the express purpose of either getting a "buzz" or outright drunk. American culture promotes drunkenness as a sign of independence, the best way to have a good time, necessary for really enjoying life, a reward for work, a distraction from family matters, a way of escape, an excuse to sin (especially when it comes to fighting or sexual immorality) while being able to deny responsibility for sinning by claiming it was the booze, not them.

Ironically, while some try to claim America was founded as a Christian nation with high morals, when you trace American history from colonial times to after achieving independence, America was very much built upon alcohol and all the accompanying sins which go with such.

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9 hours ago, Standing Firm In Christ said:

New wine, i.e.; freshly squeezed juice of the grape.

 

sorry, not alcoholic.

Sorry, it was alcoholic 

Acts 2:13

Others mocking said, These men are full of new wine.

15 For these are not drunken, as ye suppose, seeing it is but the third hour of the day.

By Peter's answer to the accusations of drunkeness, it makes perfect sense that new wine is alcoholic. But your eisegesis  would have us think that Dt. 14:26 is grape juice and coffee. I can see how you don't want to admit this and you are wrong.

 

9 hours ago, Standing Firm In Christ said:

 

Jesus was not drinking alcohol.  He was accused of drinking alcohol.  

 

The scoffers were falsely accusing Him,... Just as you do when you claim as they did that he drank alcohol.

 

Wrong again, by context of the statement Jesus made, he compared himself to John the Baptist, John, who didn't drink(vs.33) and they thought he was crazy for not drinking, why? Because they drank wine in the culture of the day. It is/was very common to drink wine.

Jesus, showing the Pharisees hypocrisy, compared how he was eating and drinking and in comparison, they were accusing Him of being  a drunken and glutton. Had Jesus would have been drinking grape juice, he would have called the Pharisees on their lie. And the Pharisees would have been proven liars. But Jesus never denied that he drank alcoholic wine, he was just pointing out the Pharisees hypocrisy. Again, your eisegesis fails you.

2 hours ago, John81 said:

Here in America there are very few who drink alcohol infused drinks for a refreshing small drink or health. In America most people who drink any form of alcohol do so for the express purpose of either getting a "buzz" or outright drunk. American culture promotes drunkenness as a sign of independence, the best way to have a good time, necessary for really enjoying life, a reward for work, a distraction from family matters, a way of escape, an excuse to sin (especially when it comes to fighting or sexual immorality) while being able to deny responsibility for sinning by claiming it was the booze, not them.

Ironically, while some try to claim America was founded as a Christian nation with high morals, when you trace American history from colonial times to after achieving independence, America was very much built upon alcohol and all the accompanying sins which go with such.

John, to an extent I agree with you. Most parts of the world I noticed when I have traveled overseas, that most people are as hard of drinkers as Americans. (With exception to the Irish ;)) Americans have a reputation when they travel abroad for being "hard partyers"

 

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Acts 2:1314 does not say new wine is alcoholic.

in fact, it proves just the opposite.

The statement in verse 13 proves that they knew the only type of wine the Disciples drank was new wine.  They were not accused of drinking aged wine, but new wine.  New wine is freshly squeezed juice, and non alcoholic.

Keep your bartender Jesus.  I will serve the one who has nothing to do with alcohol.

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4 hours ago, John81 said:

Ironically, while some try to claim America was founded as a Christian nation with high morals, when you trace American history from colonial times to after achieving independence, America was very much built upon alcohol and all the accompanying sins which go with such.

Your constant quoting of such over the years still doesn't make it so.  America was founded as a Christian nation with high morals.  However, that doesn't mean the heathens and sinners within her lived by all the scriptures.  Then as today there are those who pick and choose and ignore to satisfy their bellies.  

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