Amillennialism - the majority view in Christendom

[Heir of Salvation]

17 hours ago, swathdiver said:

FALSE!!! 

What, exactly is "false"?

Does the RCC reject the virgin birth?.....or do Baptists?

Does the RCC not affirm one God in three persons?......or is it that Baptists don't?

We get that the RCC is heretical.................of course.....I already said that.  But, all of my statements were perfectly true and (to anyone who knows the first thing about RCC teaching) nothing I said was "false".

Please point out a specific statement or assertion which was "false".....(meaning non-factual or does not correspond with reality)  I'm open to correction........if not, I think you should rethink or detract your post.

[Critical Mass]

Darby was the first man to write down premillennialism in systematic form. This is why many think he invented. It was around long before him but was buried by 1,500 years of papal heresies. 

[John81]

7 minutes ago, Critical Mass said:

Darby was the first man to write down premillennialism in systematic form. This is why many think he invented. It was around long before him but was buried by 1,500 years of papal heresies. 

That's what Calvinist's say about Calvin and "Calvinism".

[Heir of Salvation]

6 hours ago, John81 said:

That's what Calvinist's say about Calvin and "Calvinism".

They're actually correct.  The roots of Calvinism go much deeper and farther back than Calvin himself.  

There's a lot of Augustinian influence in their thinking.  The 9th Century monk Gottschalk elucidated very Calvinistic thought, to include "Double Predestination" so very unique to Calvinism.

This article by the Calvinist Ligonier Ministries people is  a love-fest for the guy:

http://www.ligonier.org/learn/articles/gottschalk/

From the article:

....Hincmar ordered Gottschalk to appear before the Synod of Chiersy (849) where he was charged with heresy. Specifically, he was accused of gemina pradestinatio — double predestination — a step in which he went even further than his teacher Augustine. Not only did God eternally predestine His elect to eternal life, Gottschalk maintained that He also foreordained all reprobates to eternal death. When Gottschalk refused to recant, the synod charged him a heretic and flogged him within an inch of his life. His books were publicly burned and he was imprisoned at Hautvilliers................

 

That's why these "who systematized an idea first" arguments are less than meaningless.  Truth lasts through all generations, and heresies are ageless and are simply recycled under a different moniker......same heresy, different name.  

It is what sayeth the Lord and nothing else that we look to.    

[Invicta]

 

On 26/01/2016 at 7:15 PM, Critical Mass said:

Darby was the first man to write down premillennialism in systematic form. This is why many think he invented. It was around long before him but was buried by 1,500 years of papal heresies. 

Before Darby, Historicists taught historical premillennialism, I believe hat futurists like Edward Irving and first followers taught futurist premillennialism.  They also seemed to be the first to teach the pretribulation rapture among protestants as well as its first false prophecy,as  they said would it would occur in July 1834.  That was before Darby invented his system of dispensationalism.

[Ronda]

Once again, Darby didn't "invent" dispensationalism. There certainly are dispensations in the Bible (whether you note them or not). The word is itself is used in scripture, and it isn't referencing the same dispensation in all verses...unless a person lumps in all scripture as one dispensation... then of course there isn't any need (in that person's mind) to note any dispensations. Those are the types who don't think the Bible REALLY meant to use the word "dispensation" at all...  I prefer to believe that the Lord chose the words carefully, and every word is there for a purpose, the words REALLY DO mean what they say.

1 Corinthians 9:17 "For if I do this thing willingly, I have a reward: but if against my will, a dispensation of the gospel is committed unto me."
Ephesians 1:10 "That in the dispensation of the fulness of times he might gather together in one all things in Christ, both which are in heaven, and which are on earth; even in him:"
Ephesians 3:2 "If ye have heard of the dispensation of the grace of God which is given me to you-ward:"
Colossians 1:25 "Whereof I am made a minister, according to the dispensation of God which is given to me for you, to fulfil the word of God;"
 

[John81]

When Darby began preaching dispensationalism the fundamental conservative pastors of his day denounced it as a new, unscriptural teaching. Spurgeon speculated that if Darby had not been such a great orator more would have readily recognized his new, false teaching (as Spurgeon described it) and dispensationalism would have withered away quickly.

[Ronda]

On 1/26/2016 at 7:56 PM, Alan said:

"A History of Pre-Darby Rapture Advocates," written by Thomas Ice.

http://www.pre-trib.org/data/pdf/Ice-AHistoryofPreDarbyRa.pdf

The teaching that the pre-tribulation rapture origninated from Darby is not true

I guess nobody bothered to read this, but instead prefer to stick to the Darby/Spurgeon quote.  There is proof here long before Darby or Spurgeon were ever even born!!! Yet the same rhetoric is used again and again in stating that "Darby invented dispensationalism" when that has been proven false! Brother Alan has attempted repeatedly to correct this.  I agree with the article and historical reference given by Dr. Ice (as again noted above in brother Alan's post), and I also brought forth the various Bible uses of the very word "dispensation", yet that is ignored as well. Oh Well. Having grown up on a farm I can relate to this thought...you can lead a horse to water...

[John81]

None of which changes the fact when Darby began teaching dispensationalism the fundamentalist conservative pastors of his day denounced the teaching as a new, unscriptural teaching.

[Invicta]

4 hours ago, Ronda said:

I guess nobody bothered to read this, but instead prefer to stick to the Darby/Spurgeon quote.  There is proof here long before Darby or Spurgeon were ever even born!!! Yet the same rhetoric is used again and again in stating that "Darby invented dispensationalism" when that has been proven false! Brother Alan has attempted repeatedly to correct this.  I agree with the article and historical reference given by Dr. Ice (as again noted above in brother Alan's post), and I also brought forth the various Bible uses of the very word "dispensation", yet that is ignored as well. Oh Well. Having grown up on a farm I can relate to this thought...you can lead a horse to water...

I have read it before and it contains many half truths.  The writer doesn't give any references to most of his allegations and I would igmnore any like that.  All the so called fathers taught that he who letteth was the emperor and the what, the empire, because as Tertullian said "for this reason we pray for the continuation of the empire because we know what evils will come upon the earth when it is removed."  Iraenius and other early writers taught that the Temple in the book of Revelation referred to the church.

I don't know why you brought Spurgeon into it, he wasn't a PTRist.  He probably held some points that you would agree with and some which you would oppose,

Edited January 28, 2016 by Invicta

[Invicta]

5 hours ago, Ronda said:

I guess nobody bothered to read this, but instead prefer to stick to the Darby/Spurgeon quote.  There is proof here long before Darby or Spurgeon were ever even born!!! Yet the same rhetoric is used again and again in stating that "Darby invented dispensationalism" when that has been proven false! Brother Alan has attempted repeatedly to correct this.  I agree with the article and historical reference given by Dr. Ice (as again noted above in brother Alan's post), and I also brought forth the various Bible uses of the very word "dispensation", yet that is ignored as well. Oh Well. Having grown up on a farm I can relate to this thought...you can lead a horse to water...

Would that be Thomas Ice?

This Thomas Ice?     http://www.poweredbychrist.com/Thomas_Ice_Bloopers.html  Note the author is a pretribulation rapturist, defending the Irvingite beginnings over the Darby Worshipers who  insist their hero was the originator.  

[Alan]

Brethren,

If a person wants to learn more of the historical belief in the pre-tribulation, pre-milleniall coming of Christ for the Church than plenty of information is available on the internet. The detractors of this biblical belief, and the false teachers of A-millenialism, and the "historical" interpretation of Revelaltion, will find fault with every writer and defender of this biblical truth.

In these last days every biblical truth, including prophecy, is being questioned and  attacked by false prophets, false teachers, and miss-guided brethren. Any man of God who stands for the truth and exposes the error of any false doctrinal belief, like a-milleniallism, will be verbally denounced, scorned, mocked, and some fault in his life or writing will be purposely brought out in public in a effort to vilify his beliefs.

The phrase, "Darby Worshippers," is designed to belittle, and mock, those who believe in the pre-tribulation, pre-millenial belief in the coming of Christ for the chruch. The phrase "Darby worshippers," is a slander. It, and other belittling and mocking phrases are  written in an effort to intimidate the man of God and belittle him in the eyes of those who read his works.

 

 

7 hours ago, Ronda said:

I guess nobody bothered to read this, but instead prefer to stick to the Darby/Spurgeon quote.  There is proof here long before Darby or Spurgeon were ever even born!!! Yet the same rhetoric is used again and again in stating that "Darby invented dispensationalism" when that has been proven false! Brother Alan has attempted repeatedly to correct this.  I agree with the article and historical reference given by Dr. Ice (as again noted above in brother Alan's post), and I also brought forth the various Bible uses of the very word "dispensation", yet that is ignored as well. Oh Well. Having grown up on a farm I can relate to this thought...you can lead a horse to water...

Amen and amen.

[John81]

Try David Jeremiah, he's able to articulate the pre-trib rapture view better than anyone I've ever heard or read.

[beameup]

The obvious examples from the O.T. are Noah and Abraham (concerning Lot and Sodom).  The righteous will be removed from earth prior to the Tribulation.  It is the Catholic church that suppressed this teaching (*when it was "formalized" under Emperor Constantine).  Upon formation of the "Catholic Church", the "doctrines" of prominence were that the "Catholic Church" was the "Kingdom on Earth" (Jesus "ruling" from heaven).  Obviously teaching of any doctrine of the Antichrist was forbidden, as it would reflect poorly on the Emperor Constantine.  Unfortunately, many of the heresies of the Catholic Church were kept by the Reformers, and persist to this day.  That is why the teaching of the "Rapture" then became a "forgotten truth".

δέ εἰ τὶς ἀγνοέω ἀγνοέω

Edited January 29, 2016 by beameup

[John81]

3 hours ago, beameup said:

The obvious examples from the O.T. are Noah and Abraham (concerning Lot and Sodom).  The righteous will be removed from earth prior to the Tribulation.  It is the Catholic church that suppressed this teaching (*when it was "formalized" under Emperor Constantine).  Upon formation of the "Catholic Church", the "doctrines" of prominence were that the "Catholic Church" was the "Kingdom on Earth" (Jesus "ruling" from heaven).  Obviously teaching of any doctrine of the Antichrist was forbidden, as it would reflect poorly on the Emperor Constantine.  Unfortunately, many of the heresies of the Catholic Church were kept by the Reformers, and persist to this day.  That is why the teaching of the "Rapture" then became a "forgotten truth".

Lot was not removed from the earth but taken to a safe place. Noah was not removed, he was provided a safe place. Both remained on earth and witnessed the judgment of God upon the wicked even as God protected them. Neither Lot nor Noah serve as examples to support the pre-trib rapture.

Better to stick to the verses which directly address the matter.

It's also not really helpful when folks argue back and forth over Catholic this or that since regardless of what the RCC does or doesn't do, say or believe, the Word of God stands as our reliable source.