Jump to content
  • Welcome Guest

    For an ad free experience on Online Baptist, Please login or register for free

The Kingdom


Recommended Posts

  • Members

The scripture in context is clear on this matter regardless of what fables the ancients may have tried to place upon the text: Angels fallen or otherwise are not "Sons of God":

Hebrews 1 God, who at sundry times and in divers manners spake in time past unto the fathers by the prophets, 2 hath in these last days spoken unto us by his Son, whom he hath appointed heir of all things, by whom also he made the worlds;3 who being the brightness of his glory, and the express image of his person, and upholding all things by the word of his power, when he had by himself purged our sins, sat down on the right hand of the Majesty on high; 4 being made so much better than the angels, as he hath by inheritance obtained a more excellent name than they. 

For unto which of the angels said he at any time, Thou art my Son, this day have I begotten thee? And again, I will be to him a Father, and he shall be to me a Son? 6 And again, when he bringeth in the firstbegotten into the world, he saith, And let all the angels of God worship him. 7 And of the angels he saith, Who maketh his angels spirits, and his ministers a flame of fire. 

8 But unto the Son he saith, Thy throne, O God, is for ever and ever: a sceptre of righteousness is the sceptre of thy kingdom. 9 Thou hast loved righteousness, and hated iniquity; therefore God, even thy God, hath anointed thee with the oil of gladness above thy fellows. 10 And, Thou, Lord, in the beginning hast laid the foundation of the earth; and the heavens are the works of thine hands: 11 they shall perish; but thou remainest; and they all shall wax old as doth a garment; 12 and as a vesture shalt thou fold them up, and they shall be changed: but thou art the same, and thy years shall not fail. 

13 But to which of the angels said he at any time, Sit on my right hand, until I make thine enemies thy footstool? 

14 Are they not all ministering spirits, sent forth to minister for them who shall be heirs of salvation?

The scripture in context is clear on this matter. I deal with this topic extensively here in this thread: http://www.onlinebaptist.com/home/topic/23268-the-sons-of-god-are-not-the-angels/#comment-403605

Edited by John Young
Link to comment
Share on other sites

  • Members

Angels have a nature but Humans have seed this makes them a separate kind of being and incompatible with humans and not inheritors of son adoption nor do they have authority over the creation outside of God's will, these Brothers of Christ are the only ones which can be called God's Sons:

Hebrews 2:11-17 For both he that sanctifieth and they who are sanctified are all of one: for which cause he is not ashamed to call them brethren,12 saying, I will declare thy name unto my brethren, in the midst of the church will I sing praise unto thee. 13 And again, I will put my trust in him. And again, Behold I and the children which God hath given me. 

14 Forasmuch then as the children are partakers of flesh and blood, he also himself likewise took part of the same; that through death he might destroy him that had the power of death, that is, the devil; 15 and deliver them who through fear of death were all their lifetime subject to bondage. 

16 For verily he took not on him the nature of angels; but he took on him the seed of Abraham. 

17 Wherefore in all things it behoved him to be made like unto his brethren, that he might be a merciful and faithful high priest in things pertaining to God, to make reconciliation for the sins of the people. 18 For in that he himself hath suffered being tempted, he is able to succour them that are tempted.

1 Corinthians 15:38-41 but God giveth it a body as it hath pleased him, and to every seed his own body. 39 All flesh is not the same flesh: but there is one kind of flesh of men, another flesh of beasts, another of fishes, and another of birds. 

40 There arealso celestial bodies, and bodies terrestrial: but the glory of the celestial is one, and the glory of the terrestrial is another. 41 There is one glory of the sun, and another glory of the moon, and another glory of the stars: for one star differeth from another star in glory.

Edited by John Young
Link to comment
Share on other sites

  • Members
2 hours ago, Critical Mass said:

"AND ALSO AFTER THAT" i.e. there were giants in the earth after the flood too (which there were) as a result of the sons of God procreating with the daughters of men. I don't understand why this is so hard to grasp?

Again, the teaching that these "sons of God" were born again Christian is ridiculous. Or that only saved men married unsaved women and not the other way around.

Anything but believe the bible.

Compare scripture with scripture: Cain leaving the Lord and setting up his own kingdom and lineage away from the Lord in the land of Nod (Genesis 4:16-22) and the men that stayed with Adam and Seth called upon the Name of the Lord in another place (Genesis 4:26). Over time that Holy nation in Genesis 5 (of which Cain is excluded even though his descendants still existed) becoming corrupted in Genesis 6 and going to the daughters of the men and you get the almost exact same event as is described in Ezra 9-10. Only in Ezra they repented.

Ezra 9:1-4 Now when these things were done, the princes came to me, saying, The people of Israel, and the priests, and the Levites, have not separated themselves from the people of the lands, doing according to their abominations, even of the Canaanites, the Hittites, the Perizzites, the Jebusites, the Ammonites, the Moabites, the Egyptians, and the Amorites. 2 For they have taken of their daughters for themselves, and for their sons: so that the holy seed have mingled themselves with the people of those lands: yea, the hand of the princes and rulers hath been chief in this trespass. 3 And when I heard this thing, I rent my garment and my mantle, and plucked off the hair of my head and of my beard, and sat down astonied. 4 Then were assembled unto me every one that trembled at the words of the God of Israel, because of the transgression of those that had been carried away; and I sat astonied until the evening sacrifice.

13 And after all that is come upon us for our evil deeds, and for our great trespass, seeing that thou our God hast punished us less than our iniquities deserve, and hast given us such deliverance as this; 14 should we again break thy commandments, and join in affinity with the people of these abominations? wouldest not thou be angry with us till thou hadst consumed us, so that there should be no remnant nor escaping? 15 O Lord God of Israel, thou art righteous: for we remain yet escaped, as it is this day: behold, we are before thee in our trespasses: for we cannot stand before thee because of this.

Ezra 10:11-14 Now therefore make confession unto the Lord God of your fathers, and do his pleasure: and separate yourselves from the people of the land, and from the strange wives. 12 Then all the congregation answered and said with a loud voice, As thou hast said, so must we do. 13 But the people are many, and it is a time of much rain, and we are not able to stand without, neither is this a work of one day or two: for we are many that have transgressed in this thing.

Ezra 10:44 All these had taken strange wives: and some of them had wives by whom they had children.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

  • Members
8 hours ago, Critical Mass said:

"AND ALSO AFTER THAT" i.e. there were giants in the earth after the flood too (which there were) as a result of the sons of God procreating with the daughters of men. I don't understand why this is so hard to grasp?

Grammatically false.  The phrase "and also" indicates something in addition to the previous statement, not an explanation for the previous statement.  Even more, the phrase "after that" indicates that the reality of the second statement occurred after the reality of the first statement.  The word "that" is a demonstrative pronoun that grammatically points back to the reality of the first statement.  Therefore, the time sequence of the realities is as follows:

Occurred first -- The reality that "there were giants [Hebrew, "n'philiym"] in the earth in those days."
Occurred second ("also after that," after that of the first) -- The reality that "the sons of God" and "the daughters of men" procreated and thereby produced children who grew up to become "mighty men which were of old, men of renown."

The reason that it is "so hard to grasp" your position is not because we cannot understand your position, but is specifically because your position is contrary to the precise grammatical construction that God the Holy Spirit inspired for the verse.  Those of us who believe in a "jot and tittle" precision for Bible study will not be willing to reject the Holy Spirit inspired grammar of the verse in order to follow a human fabrication.
 

7 hours ago, beameup said:

Yea, it's pretty straight-forward.  Prior to Augustine, it was universally understood to be fallen angels bene Elohim (or called "Watchers" in the Book of Enoch). The reference in Genesis 6 is "the sons of God" cohabiting with "the daughters of Men" bath 'adam                                                                    [     angels could eat and drink in the O.T. and were the objects of sexual-desire by the Sodomites, which tells us that they could "materialize" on earth]

The older view, held nearly unanimously by ancient writers prior to Augustine of Hippo, is that the Benei Ha'Elohim (Sons of God) or The Watchers were fallen angels in extra-Biblical traditions. While there has always been a minority of churchmen who followed this view

The view posited by St. Augustine in the fourth century is that the Sons of God refers to the god-fearing line of Seth; and the daughters of men refers to the daughters of the unbelieving line of Cain.  http://creationwiki.org/Bene_Elohim

1.  I really do not care what human did or did not propagate a particular doctrinal position.  I care only what the Holy Spirit inspired grammar and context reveals.  For if the Holy Spirit inspired grammar and context reveals a particular position, then GOD THE HOLY SPIRIT taught that position FIRST; and I am more than happy to follow HIS lead.

2.  So then, now instead of following Augustine of Hippo (whose doctrinal position on many things I would certainly reject), we are to follow the writers of "extra-Biblical tradition" instead.  Is this not simply an exchange of one human authority for another.  I am not interested in human authority for my doctrine.  Rather, I am interested in Holy Spirit authority for my doctrine.

(Note: It is interesting to me that Brother "Beameup" begins by stating that it is "pretty straight-forward;" but then instead of handling the actual grammatical structure of that which God the Holy Spirit inspired, he ran off to the "extra-Biblical traditions," such as "the Book of Enoch.")

Edited by Pastor Scott Markle
added the concluding note
Link to comment
Share on other sites

  • Members
6 hours ago, John Young said:

Angels have a nature but Humans have seed this makes them a separate kind of being and incompatible with humans and not inheritors of son adoption nor do they have authority over the creation outside of God's will, these Brothers of Christ are the only ones which can be called God's Sons:

Hebrews 2:11-17 For both he that sanctifieth and they who are sanctified are all of one: for which cause he is not ashamed to call them brethren,12 saying, I will declare thy name unto my brethren, in the midst of the church will I sing praise unto thee. 13 And again, I will put my trust in him. And again, Behold I and the children which God hath given me. 

14 Forasmuch then as the children are partakers of flesh and blood, he also himself likewise took part of the same; that through death he might destroy him that had the power of death, that is, the devil; 15 and deliver them who through fear of death were all their lifetime subject to bondage. 

16 For verily he took not on him the nature of angels; but he took on him the seed of Abraham. 

17 Wherefore in all things it behoved him to be made like unto his brethren, that he might be a merciful and faithful high priest in things pertaining to God, to make reconciliation for the sins of the people. 18 For in that he himself hath suffered being tempted, he is able to succour them that are tempted.

Brother Young,

Not at all seeking to be in conflict with your above presentation (although at the present I do hold that the "sons of God" references in Job refer to the angelic beings, which might be in conflict with your presentation from Hebrews 1:1-14).  However, I present this posting in order ask a side (but related) question concerning your presentation from Hebrews 2:11-17, as follows:

Do you then believe that Biblical regeneration occurred for believers in the time of the Old Testament, for how else do sinful humans by nature become the "sons of God"?

(Note: This question is asked for information because I do not actually know your position concerning Biblical regeneration for Old Testament believers.  On the other hand, this question might also be posed to any who do actually deny regeneration for Old Testament believers, but who believe that "the sons of God" in Genesis 6:1-4 are human believers.)

Link to comment
Share on other sites

  • Members

 

On 2/6/2016 at 6:36 AM, Pastor Scott Markle said:

Do you then believe that Biblical regeneration occurred for believers in the time of the Old Testament, for how else do sinful humans by nature become the "sons of God"?

Yes I believe salvation is obtained the same way in every age. By Faith in Christ, the Son of God. Jesus expected as much from Nicodemus in John 3 when He said to him, "Art thou a master of Israel, and knowest not these things?"

Link to comment
Share on other sites

  • Members
5 minutes ago, John Young said:

Yes I believe salvation is obtained the same way in every age. By Faith in Christ, the Son of God. Jesus expected as much from Nicodemus in John 3 when He said to him, "Art thou a master of Israel, and knowest not these things?"

Brother Young,

I thank you for your answer; however, I am still a "little" uncertain of your position.  I know that this may appear to be a repetition of the question that you just answered.  Yet I would ask specifically concerning regeneration for Old Testament believers -- Do you believe, specifically, that Biblical regeneration occurred for Old Testament believers?  Some believe that eternal justification and eternal salvation occurred for Old Testament believers, but that Biblical regeneration itself did not.  Since your answer specified that "salvation is obtained the same way in every age," that is -- "by faith in Christ, the Son of God," I am still a little uncertain of your position specifically concerning regeneration for Old Testament believers.

I pray that you will not view me as an annoyance for repeating my question.  I pray that you may understand the reason for my repetition.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

  • Members
Isaiah 61:4-7
And they shall build the old wastes, they shall raise up the former desolations, and they shall repair the waste cities, the desolations of many generations.
And strangers shall stand and feed your flocks, and the sons of the alien shall be your plowmen and your vinedressers.
But ye shall be named the Priests of the LORD: men shall call you the Ministers of our God: ye shall eat the riches of the Gentiles, and in their glory shall ye boast yourselves.
For your shame ye shall have double; and for confusion they shall rejoice in their portion: therefore in their land they shall possess the double: everlasting joy shall be unto them.
Isaiah 60, 61, 62 concern the Kingdom of God on the earth, located in Israel
 
Isaiah 61:1-2a
The Spirit of the Lord GOD is upon me; because the LORD hath anointed me to preach good tidings unto the meek; he hath sent me to bind up the brokenhearted, to proclaim liberty to the captives, and the opening of the prison to them that are bound; To proclaim the acceptable year of the LORD -- Jesus announcing that the Kingdom of God was "at hand". Luke 4:18-19
 
Edited by beameup
Link to comment
Share on other sites

  • Members
5 hours ago, beameup said:
 
The Spirit of the Lord GOD is upon me; because the LORD hath anointed me to preach good tidings unto the meek; he hath sent me to bind up the brokenhearted, to proclaim liberty to the captives, and the opening of the prison to them that are bound; To proclaim the acceptable year of the LORD -- Jesus announcing that the Kingdom of God was "at hand". Luke 4:18-19

Where in that part does it mention the Kingdom of God?  Jesus proclaimed the acceptable year of the Lord. That year is still open to us and to you if you repent hand have faith in Him.  

Link to comment
Share on other sites

  • Members
4 hours ago, Invicta said:

Where in that part does it mention the Kingdom of God?  Jesus proclaimed the acceptable year of the Lord. That year is still open to us and to you if you repent hand have faith in Him.  

Please read chapters 60-61-62 of Isaiah to get the "big picture".

The ENTIRE Nation of Israel will be "Priests of the LORD"  - Isaiah 61:6

But ye shall be named the Priests of the LORD: men shall call you the Ministers of our God: ye shall eat the riches of the Gentiles, and in their glory shall ye boast yourselves.

 

ezekielland_mil.gif

Link to comment
Share on other sites

  • Members
57 minutes ago, beameup said:

Please read chapters 60-61-62 of Isaiah to get the "big picture".

The ENTIRE Nation of Israel will be "Priests of the LORD"  - Isaiah 61:6

But ye shall be named the Priests of the LORD: men shall call you the Ministers of our God: ye shall eat the riches of the Gentiles, and in their glory shall ye boast yourselves.

 

ezekielland_mil.gif

You have put that on there several times already, as someone said, Repeating things over again does not make them true.  Part of that, Jesus said was fulfilled in Luke four in "This Day"  The days of vengeance too place in the Roman war 1 AD 66-70. (Luke 21:22)  And as someone who teaches that all of Jesus' ministry was under the law, I cannot take anything you say as true.

 

 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

  • Members
10 minutes ago, Invicta said:

You have put that on there several times already, as someone said, Repeating things over again does not make them true.  Part of that, Jesus said was fulfilled in Luke four in "This Day"  The days of vengeance too place in the Roman war 1 AD 66-70. (Luke 21:22)  And as someone who teaches that all of Jesus' ministry was under the law, I cannot take anything you say as true.

 

 

I do understand that "Reformed" - "Covenant" Theology does lead one to believe that the "Church" has "replaced" Israel, and hence, that all of Israel's promises now belong to the "Church".  I really do understand your position.

For Christ is the end of the law for righteousness to every one that believeth. For Moses describeth the righteousness which is of the law, That the man which doeth those things shall live by them. Romans 10:4-5
 
But the righteousness which is of faith speaketh on this wise - [Romans 10:6a]  But what saith it? The word is nigh thee, even in thy mouth, and in thy heart: that is, the word of faith, which we preach; That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved. - [Romans 10:8-9] 
Edited by beameup
Link to comment
Share on other sites

  • Members
19 hours ago, Pastor Scott Markle said:

Do you believe, specifically, that Biblical regeneration occurred for Old Testament believers?  Some believe that eternal justification and eternal salvation occurred for Old Testament believers, but that Biblical regeneration itself did not.  Since your answer specified that "salvation is obtained the same way in every age," that is -- "by faith in Christ, the Son of God," I am still a little uncertain of your position specifically concerning regeneration for Old Testament believers.

In my mind Regeneration and Born Again which Christ spoke of are the same thing. So when one is generated from another that means they were born and when one is "born again" spiritually their spirit is made alive by God. Christ stated with out being Born Again [regenerated] a man cannot see the kingdom of God. The salvation part is the same for every believer but until Christ actually redeemed them on the cross they had to wait for some of the eternal spiritual aspects. Just as today we wait for aspects in regard to the bodily regeneration. The OT regenerated waited in hope for the spiritual redemption which occurred at the cross and the NT regenerated are waiting in hope for the redemption of our body which will occur at the return of Christ. (Romans 8:18-25,1 Corinthians 15:50-53,1 Thessalonians 4:16-17)

Additionally, Jesus was not, as our human mediator, advocate, sacrifice, priest, etc., before God until after the resurrection so the dynamic between regenerate/righteous/just men and God was different in regard to approaching Him. Also the role of the Holy Spirit changed a bit as well. Rather then things being meditated by angels between God and man (Galatians 3:19) the Holy Spirit, took residence and became the Holy Ghost comforter, working in the name of Christ, in all believers to give all direct access to God (John 14:26).

Edited by John Young
Link to comment
Share on other sites

  • Members
9 hours ago, beameup said:

I do understand that "Reformed" - "Covenant" Theology does lead one to believe that the "Church" has "replaced" Israel, and hence, that all of Israel's promises now belong to the "Church".  I really do understand your position.

For Christ is the end of the law for righteousness to every one that believeth. For Moses describeth the righteousness which is of the law, That the man which doeth those things shall live by them. Romans 10:4-5
 
But the righteousness which is of faith speaketh on this wise - [Romans 10:6a]  But what saith it? The word is nigh thee, even in thy mouth, and in thy heart: that is, the word of faith, which we preach; That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved. - [Romans 10:8-9

Actually you do not understand my position at all.  I do not believe that the church has replaced Israel.  I know some who do believe that, even in my own family. They do not believe that Israel is still a chosen people, I do.  They believe that "All Israel will be saved" refers to the 'Elect' i.e. the Church,  I do not believe that.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

  • Members
48 minutes ago, Invicta said:

Actually you do not understand my position at all.  I do not believe that the church has replaced Israel.  I know some who do believe that, even in my own family. They do not believe that Israel is still a chosen people, I do.  They believe that "All Israel will be saved" refers to the 'Elect' i.e. the Church,  I do not believe that.

And as someone who teaches that all of Jesus' ministry was under the law, I cannot take anything you say as true.

But when the fullness of the time was come, God sent forth his Son, made of a woman, made under the law, To redeem them that were under the law, that we might receive the adoption of sons.  Galatians 4:4-5  Jesus' ministry was "under the Law".
 
Some have forgotten that Jesus (much) later appeared to Paul and gave him the revelation of the mystery, a mystery that until that time was unknown and not revealed in the O.T.
How that by revelation he [Jesus] made known unto me the mystery; (as I wrote afore in few words, Whereby, when ye read, ye may understand my knowledge in the mystery of Christ) Which in other ages was not made known unto the sons of men, as it is now revealed unto his holy apostles and prophets by the Spirit; That the Gentiles should be fellowheirs, and of the same body, and partakers of his promise in Christ by the gospel: Eph 3:3-6
Even the mystery which hath been hid from ages and from generations, but now is made manifest to his saints: To whom God would make known what is the riches of the glory of this mystery among the Gentiles; which is Christ in you, the hope of glory:  Col 1:26-27
 
Now, during the Kingdom (Millennial Reign of Messiah) - during the next "dispensation" - the Gentiles on the Earth will come to Israel to worship the King.  Israel will then be "a light unto the Gentiles".
And he said, It is a light thing that thou shouldest be my servant to raise up the tribes of Jacob, and to restore the preserved of Israel: I will also give thee for a light to the Gentiles, that thou mayest be my salvation unto the end of the earth.  Isa 49:6
Edited by beameup
Link to comment
Share on other sites

Join the conversation

You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.
Note: Your post will require moderator approval before it will be visible.

Guest
Reply to this topic...

×   Pasted as rich text.   Paste as plain text instead

  Only 75 emoji are allowed.

×   Your link has been automatically embedded.   Display as a link instead

×   Your previous content has been restored.   Clear editor

×   You cannot paste images directly. Upload or insert images from URL.



×
×
  • Create New...