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5 hours ago, Pastor Scott Markle said:

Brother "Old-Pilgrim," (If you were to provide your given name, I would use it out of respect for you.)

Actually, your position is NOT a valid possibility because the Hebrew grammar will NOT allow for it.  In the Hebrew the adverb that is translated "after that" is DIRECTLY connected to the which FOLLOWS, not to that which precedes.  The King James translators understood this; therefore, they included the semicolon between the word "days" and the word "and" in order to signal this unto the English reader, thereby revealing the end of the first independent clause and the beginning of the second independent clause.  As such, the phrase "after that" is not a modifier that is connected to the first independent clause, but is certainly a modifier that is connected to the second independent clause -- "And also after that, when the sons of God came in unto the daughters of men, and they bare children to them, the same became mighty men which were of old, men of renown." 

Furthermore, the conclusion of the second independent clause actually DOES reveal the nature of the offspring for "the sons of God" and "the daughters of men."  Indeed, it reveals that their offspring were MEN, indicating that their children "became mighty men which were of old, men of renown."  Yes, they became "mighty men," "men of renown;" yet they were still MEN, not some angel-man hybrid.

Even so, as I said before, so say I now again -- It is grammatically invalid to claim from Genesis 6:4 that the “giants” (“n’philiym”) were the offspring of “the sons of God” and “the daughters of men.”

Hello Brother Scott, thanks for your time, you seem to be sincere in your view of this scripture, I don't do Hebrew or Greek or English for that matter, but I have noticed that sometimes different translations are different because people can't quite agree on what the original word means or what the sense of the word should be, I know that in English often in a word or in a phrase there can be different meanings, And I have noticed that some of the reformation translations have commas rather than semi colons and comas, I have also heard that the Church before the time of Constantine all believed that the Nephalim (fallen) were an unlawful union between angels and humans, And there are other Scriptures to support this view, they could all be explained away, one by one, or they could be taken and built into conclusion.There was the Giant who had 24 digits, six toes and six fingers, times two 24 in all.Numbers 13:33  And there we saw the giants, the sons of Anak, which come of the giants: and we were in our own sight as grasshoppers, and so we were in their sight. The idea of a pure human race isn't that scriptural, Cain was of the 'evil one', the 'seed of the serpent', Judas was a devil, Satan entered into him, humans have to be separated sheep from goats.Jesus said to the pharisees 'ye are of your father the devil', Adam was a spiritual being who had a flesh body, the devil was a spiritual being who never had a flesh body.

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51 minutes ago, Old-Pilgrim said:

I have also heard that the Church before the time of Constantine all believed that the Nephalim (fallen) were an unlawful union between angels and humans,

Hearsay.

52 minutes ago, Old-Pilgrim said:

nd there are other Scriptures to support this view,

Which scriptures?

 

53 minutes ago, Old-Pilgrim said:

There was the Giant who had 24 digits, six toes and six fingers, times two 24 in all.Numbers 13:33 

People sometimes are born with extra digits today.  There are also reports of them in history.  Josephus mentions in one place seeing a giant skeleton with extra digits.  I once read that one of the Pharaohs was a giant with extra digits.and that his name in Greek meant just that, but no I cannot remember which one.

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19 hours ago, Invicta said:

Hearsay.

Which scriptures?

 

People sometimes are born with extra digits today.  There are also reports of them in history.  Josephus mentions in one place seeing a giant skeleton with extra digits.  I once read that one of the Pharaohs was a giant with extra digits.and that his name in Greek meant just that, but no I cannot remember which one.

Well, it isn't my specialist topic, but;

Jude 1:7  Even as Sodom and Gomorrah, and the cities about them in like manner, giving themselves over to fornication, and going after strange flesh, are set forth for an example, suffering the vengeance of eternal fire.

As often it all depends how you divide the word as to what it says.(or how you see it)

Scripture mention’s the six fingers and toes, for a reason, perhaps to leave a clue for the non-fearful, to break it to us gently, . I suppose like a parent who is trying to tell a child some awful truth, such as ‘you will never walk’, or  ‘you have cancer’,  IE ‘the world is not always nice, neither are people, to their core’ Perhaps God doesn’t want to traumatize us by being too graphic. The Idea that Humans might not be fully Of Adam, but a mixture of Adam and the seed of the serpent could also be indicated from scripture, this would make the idea of the fallen ones mixing with humans less weird.

Edited by Old-Pilgrim
clarification
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19 hours ago, heartstrings said:

well they call demon possession MPD or split personality don't they. That (extra fingers) is due to DNA mess up a sign that something is not right. I think it is mildly interesting that we got our 12 hour day from the Babylonians, makes me think perhaps their was more than one of them who had twelve digits.

 

 

Edited by Old-Pilgrim
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20 minutes ago, Old-Pilgrim said:

well they call demon possession MPD or split personality don't they. That (extra fingers) is due to DNA mess up a sign that something is not right. I think it is mildly interesting that we got our 12 hour day from the Babylonians, makes me think perhaps their was more than one of them who had twelve digits.

 

 

Are you trying to say that the "extra digits" deformity was caused by angel DNA? I suppose this one-eyed kitten's great, great, great.........................granddaddy was a Cyclops. :D %7Boption%7Dhttps://s-media-cache-ak0.pinimg.com/564x/8a/5b/88/8a5b88814d17f41551e685e547e7c0f0.jpg

Seriously, deformities are caused by the curse; the curse because of sin. It's not because of angel "hybridization"

 

 

Edited by heartstrings
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On Thursday, February 11, 2016 at 10:40 PM, Invicta said:

Hearsay.

Which scriptures?

 

People sometimes are born with extra digits today.  There are also reports of them in history.  Josephus mentions in one place seeing a giant skeleton with extra digits.  I once read that one of the Pharaohs was a giant with extra digits.and that his name in Greek meant just that, but no I cannot remember which one.

Scripture;

Jude 1:7  Even as Sodom and Gomorrah, and the cities about them in like manner, giving themselves over to fornication, and going after strange flesh, are set forth for an example, suffering the vengeance of eternal fire.

Scripture mention’s the six fingers and toes, for a reason, perhaps to leave a clue for the non-fearful, to break it to us gently, . I suppose like a parent who is trying to tell a child some awful truth, such as ‘you will never walk’, or  ‘you have cancer’,  i.e. ‘the world is not always nice, neither are people, to their core’ Perhaps God doesn’t want to traumatise us by being too graphic.

my posts usually disappear?

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Back to the OP:

[Angel to Mary] And, behold, thou shalt conceive in thy womb, and bring forth a son, and shalt call his name Jesus. He shall be great, and shall be called the Son of the Highest: and the Lord God shall give unto him the throne of his father David: And he shall reign over the house of Jacob for ever; and of his kingdom there shall be no end.  Luke 1:31-33

[the Twelve to Jesus] When they therefore were come together, they asked of him, saying, Lord, wilt thou at this time restore again the kingdom to Israel?  Acts 1:6

[Peter's sermon to Israel]  And now, brethren, I wot that through ignorance ye did it [killed your Messiah], as did also your rulers. But those things, which God before had shewed by the mouth of all his prophets, that Christ should suffer, he hath so fulfilled. Repent ye therefore, and be converted, that your sins may be blotted out, when the times of refreshing shall come from the presence of the Lord;  And he shall send Jesus Christ, which before was preached unto you: Whom the heaven must receive until the times of restitution of all things, which God hath spoken by the mouth of all his holy prophets since the world began.  Acts 3:17-21 

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7 hours ago, beameup said:

Back to the OP:

[Angel to Mary] And, behold, thou shalt conceive in thy womb, and bring forth a son, and shalt call his name Jesus. He shall be great, and shall be called the Son of the Highest: and the Lord God shall give unto him the throne of his father David: And he shall reign over the house of Jacob for ever; and of his kingdom there shall be no end.  Luke 1:31-33

[the Twelve to Jesus] When they therefore were come together, they asked of him, saying, Lord, wilt thou at this time restore again the kingdom to IsraelActs 1:6

[Peter's sermon to Israel]  And now, brethren, I wot that through ignorance ye did it [killed your Messiah], as did also your rulers. But those things, which God before had shewed by the mouth of all his prophets, that Christ should suffer, he hath so fulfilled. Repent ye therefore, and be converted, that your sins may be blotted out, when the times of refreshing shall come from the presence of the Lord;  And he shall send Jesus Christ, which before was preached unto you: Whom the heaven must receive until the times of restitution of all things, which God hath spoken by the mouth of all his holy prophets since the world began.  Acts 3:17-21 

Mat 12:28 But if I cast out devils by the Spirit of God, then the kingdom of God is come unto you.

Did the kingdom of God come unto them?

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9 hours ago, MountainChristian said:

Mat 12:28 But if I cast out devils by the Spirit of God, then the kingdom of God is come unto you.

Did the kingdom of God come unto them?

Yes

16 hours ago, Old-Pilgrim said:

Scripture;

Jude 1:7  Even as Sodom and Gomorrah, and the cities about them in like manner, giving themselves over to fornication, and going after strange flesh, are set forth for an example, suffering the vengeance of eternal fire.

Scripture mention’s the six fingers and toes, for a reason, perhaps to leave a clue for the non-fearful, to break it to us gently, . I suppose like a parent who is trying to tell a child some awful truth, such as ‘you will never walk’, or  ‘you have cancer’,  i.e. ‘the world is not always nice, neither are people, to their core’ Perhaps God doesn’t want to traumatise us by being too graphic.

my posts usually disappear?

Strange flesh should be self evident seeing it was Sodom,

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On ‎2‎/‎11‎/‎2016 at 7:43 PM, beameup said:
Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets: I am not come to destroy, but to fulfil.  Matthew 5:17
On ‎2‎/‎11‎/‎2016 at 3:37 AM, beameup said:
For whosoever shall keep the whole law, and yet offend in one point, he is guilty of all. James 2:10
Christ lived and died "under the law".  John the Baptist was beheaded long before the crucifixion.  Jesus never "broke the Law" (of Moses).

δέ εἰ τὶς ἀγνοέω ἀγνοέω

John 8:1 ¶ Jesus went unto the mount of Olives.

John 8:2 And early in the morning he came again into the temple, and all the people came unto him; and he sat down, and taught them.

John 8:3 And the scribes and Pharisees brought unto him a woman taken in adultery; and when they had set her in the midst,

John 8:4 They say unto him, Master, this woman was taken in adultery, in the very act.

John 8:5 Now Moses in the law commanded us, that such should be stoned: but what sayest thou?

John 8:6 This they said, tempting him, that they might have to accuse him. But Jesus stooped down, and with his finger wrote on the ground, as though he heard them not.

John 8:7 So when they continued asking him, he lifted up himself, and said unto them, He that is without sin among you, let him first cast a stone at her.

John 8:8 And again he stooped down, and wrote on the ground.

John 8:9 And they which heard it, being convicted by their own conscience, went out one by one, beginning at the eldest, even unto the last: and Jesus was left alone, and the woman standing in the midst.

John 8:10 When Jesus had lifted up himself, and saw none but the woman, he said unto her, Woman, where are those thine accusers? hath no man condemned thee?

John 8:11 She said, No man, Lord. And Jesus said unto her, Neither do I condemn thee: go, and sin no more.

John 8:12 Then spake Jesus again unto them, saying, I am the light of the world: he that followeth me shall not walk in darkness, but shall have the light of life.

The Law - Lev 20:10 And the man that committeth adultery with another man's wife, even he that committeth adultery with his neighbour's wife, the adulterer and the adulteress shall surely be put to death.

Under the Law that is being proclaimed on here by a few members, Jesus would of stoned her to death and sent them to find the man so they could stone him to death too.

Under Grace, Jesus had mercy on the woman protected her from the law of death, set her free, and gave her the instruction to sin no more. This was an act of grace to a Jewish woman in front of a Jewish crowd in the Temple.

Can you see the gospel of grace here? Can you see the light of the world shining? Is "I AM" the light of the world or is it the Jewish people?

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On 2/2/2016 at 4:52 PM, Pastor Scott Markle said:

Actually, the etymology for the Hebrew noun "n'philiym" is somewhat uncertain.  However, the best possibility is (as you indicated) the word family of the Hebrew verb "naphal."  Indeed, the basic meaning of the Hebrew verb "naphal" is "to fall," with usages such as "to fall down, to fall away, to fall upon, to fall out, etc."  The noun form of "n'philiym" appears then either to carry the meaning of "those who have fallen away in rebellion and apostasy" or of "those who fall upon others with attacking and violence."

Hi Brother!  firstly, I think you are doing an EXCELLENT job of exegeting the Scriptures throughout this thread here.

I have studied these passages and this argument in depth myself, and I've belaboured the Hebrew (somewhat haltingly).  Your knowledge of the grammar and the Hebrew constructs is spot on.  I only wished to add that the best rendering of "N-Ph-L" may indeed NOT be a verbal reconstruct of the word "to fall" at all!

There is an argument (and I hold it myself) that "N-PH-L 'm" isn't a reconstruct of the verbal form "to fall" at all, but, rather that it IS a noun and it's meaning is simply and without question "GIANT".....

Michael Heiser is a P.H.D. in Hebrew who works for Logos Bible Software...(He was one of my Hebrew Professors.)   He argues here that the tri-consonantal "N-PH-L" is not rooted in the verb "to fall" but, that it is rightly translated as "giant" and his argument is based on the morphology of the Aramaic noun "Naphila" which means...you guessed it...."giant".  Naphila is known in Aramaic to mean "Giant".  

His argument is that (since the languages share similar roots) the tri-consonantal "N-PH-L" means in BOTH languages......
"Giant"..... (Hence the rendering of "gigantes" in the Septuagint".)  Much like the root for "life" in Latin Italian and french is some variation of "vivre", "vive" etc.........

Subsequently, the translator of the Septuagint was spot-on by rendering the Hebrew as  "gigantes"

...and, by extension, the KJV then perfectly renders it confidently, as...."giant".  Truth is, we don't know what the Hebrew word for "giant" is (if there is one).  We DO know that the Anakim were indeed giants.  And, we also know that Aramaic and Hebrew share similar roots as tri-consonantal languages, the root "N-Ph-L" might be shared to mean "giant" in both languages...

Here is his argument:

http://michaelsheiser.com/TheNakedBible/2013/03/thoughts-nephilim-answering-criticism/

An excerpt for those who won't read the article:

My question is simple: Why would a Septuagint (LXX) translator look atnephilim (npylym [נפילים]; nplym [נפלים]) and *not* choose a straightforward Greek translation of “fallen ones” using a Greek lemma that meant “to fall”? Had the translator understood the word to derive from naphal (“to fall”), the translation choice would *not* have beengigantes (“giants”) in Greek. And so, Why would gigantes have popped into the translator’s head instead? How does the LXX translator’s choice make any sense if the derivation of nephilim was so transparently from naphal (“to fall”)? Put another way, how does the translator look at a word that, we are told, so clearly means “fallen ones” and conclude, “I think I’ll use ‘giants’ for that”?

I think the answer to the above is pretty simple: The translator thought gigantes when he saw nephilim because the Aramaic word naphila popped into his head.

all emphasis is mine.

This, if it's correct can give us confidence that not only are you rightly exegeting the Scripture here, (namely that the "Demons-having-babies-with-women") argument not only is NOT linguistically supported but that furthermore.................

The KJV translators not surprisingly, translated that NOUN (not a verb) perfectly...........just as God had intended them to! 

Maybe this helps! :)

 

Edited by Heir of Salvation
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1 hour ago, Heir of Salvation said:

Hi Brother!  firstly, I think you are doing an EXCELLENT job of exegeting the Scriptures throughout this thread here.

I have studied these passages and this argument in depth myself, and I've belaboured the Hebrew (somewhat haltingly).  Your knowledge of the grammar and the Hebrew constructs is spot on.  I only wished to add that the best rendering of "N-Ph-L" may indeed NOT be a verbal reconstruct of the word "to fall" at all!

There is an argument (and I hold it myself) that "N-PH-L 'm" isn't a reconstruct of the verbal form "to fall" at all, but, rather that it IS a noun and it's meaning is simply and without question "GIANT".....

Michael Heiser is a P.H.D. in Hebrew who works for Logos Bible Software...(He was one of my Hebrew Professors.)   He argues here that the tri-consonantal "N-PH-L" is not rooted in the verb "to fall" but, that it is rightly translated as "giant" and his argument is based on the morphology of the Aramaic noun "Naphila" which means...you guessed it...."giant".  Naphila is known in Aramaic to mean "Giant".  

Brother "Heir of Salvation,"

First, I thank you for your encouragement toward my presentations.

Second, I was previously aware of the argument that the Hebrew noun "n'philiym" originated through the Aramaic word for "giant."  However, I myself have not given that particular aspect of the study a significant enough study to make the argument with conviction.  I thank you for the information from one who has.  That is indeed helpful to me.

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