Members No Nicolaitans Posted January 13, 2016 Members Share Posted January 13, 2016 Much has been said lately...well...let me say it this way instead...it has been said often lately, that we should follow only Paul...that only his epistles are for today's church. Here are the single-verse proof texts used... 1 Corinthians 4:16 Wherefore I beseech you, be ye followers of me. 1 Corinthians 11:1 Be ye followers of me, even as I also am of Christ. Philippians 3:17 Brethren, be followers together of me, and mark them which walk so as ye have us for an ensample. So...now I ask the following question. According ONLY to the contexts of each of the above single proof-verses and according ONLY to preceding and/or succeeding verses (which gives the context), why did Paul say this? In other words, why did Paul say what he said where he said it? Rosie and LindaR 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moderators Popular Post Ukulelemike Posted January 13, 2016 Moderators Popular Post Share Posted January 13, 2016 I don't know that we have to go outside of the three verses, and one in particular. "Be ye followers of me, even as I also am of Christ." Paul preached the same gospel of Jesus Christ as any disciples did. He was commissioned by the Lord Jesus as an Apostle of the Lamb, (unlike Matthias, who was appointed by the other Apostles and drawing of lot), and as such, carried an authority the same as the other Apostles. Paul was the Apostle to the Gentiles, just as Peter was the Apostle to the Jews, (though Peter first preached to the Gentiles, in fulfillment of Matt 16:19, and Paul certainly preached to the Jews). But also, he only expected anyone to follow him as he followed Jesus, so Jesus was the actual authority. The Corinthian church, addressed here, we know had issues with authority-they were called carnal and contentious because they wanted to be known by the name of men, (I am of Paul, I of Cephas, etc), so while they WERE to follow Paul, it was not for Paul's sake, but for the Lord's, in recognition of the authority He gave Paul, and as Paul was faithful to Christ. It is the same way we would follow any pastor today-only as far as they are following Jesus Christ. Pastor Scott Markle, weary warrior, MountainChristian and 6 others 1 8 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Critical Mass Posted January 13, 2016 Members Share Posted January 13, 2016 I don't know anyone who says only Paul's epistles are for the church and nothing else. Not even your most hardcore hypers says that. Ronda 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members No Nicolaitans Posted January 13, 2016 Author Members Share Posted January 13, 2016 3 hours ago, Ukulelemike said: I don't know that we have to go outside of the three verses, and one in particular. "Be ye followers of me, even as I also am of Christ." Paul preached the same gospel of Jesus Christ as any disciples did. He was commissioned by the Lord Jesus as an Apostle of the Lamb, (unlike Matthias, who was appointed by the other Apostles and drawing of lot), and as such, carried an authority the same as the other Apostles. Paul was the Apostle to the Gentiles, just as Peter was the Apostle to the Jews, (though Peter first preached to the Gentiles, in fulfillment of Matt 16:19, and Paul certainly preached to the Jews). But also, he only expected anyone to follow him as he followed Jesus, so Jesus was the actual authority. The Corinthian church, addressed here, we know had issues with authority-they were called carnal and contentious because they wanted to be known by the name of men, (I am of Paul, I of Cephas, etc), so while they WERE to follow Paul, it was not for Paul's sake, but for the Lord's, in recognition of the authority He gave Paul, and as Paul was faithful to Christ. It is the same way we would follow any pastor today-only as far as they are following Jesus Christ. I absolutely agree with you; however, from what I've gathered from here and elsewhere...the answer as to why Paul said to follow him is...because he's the apostle to the Gentiles. My point in asking why Paul said to follow him was to hopefully encourage people to take the time to actually read why he said it in each individual case. Too often we read along in God's word, and we lose focus, don't pay attention, or skim through until we get to what I refer to as a "knockout verse"...a verse that is used alone to prove a point, doctrine, or personal preference...a verse that "knocks out" everything around it. As an interesting side-note...in those 3 verses that are used to prove we are to follow Paul's teachings alone, only the first one excludes everyone but Paul. The second one includes the Lord, and the third one includes "us". As an interesting side-side-note...there are several other verses where Paul says to follow "us". Invicta and LindaR 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moderators Ukulelemike Posted January 14, 2016 Moderators Share Posted January 14, 2016 1 hour ago, Critical Mass said: I don't know anyone who says only Paul's epistles are for the church and nothing else. Not even your most hardcore hypers says that. Actually, I have known hyper dispensationalists who believe just that. They see Jesus as a dispensation, then Peter and the Jewish believers were a dispensation, but only to Israel, (and that they preached a gospel of faith + works), and then Paul is the dispensation for believers. They seem to miss that Paul preached quite a bit to Jews, and that Peter opened to door initially to the Gentiles. Also, Paul and Peter both claimed to be preaching the same gospel, and Peter says in Acts 15, "But we believe that through the grace of the Lord Jesus Christ we shall be saved, even as they." He didn't see a different gospel. So yeah, there are those out there who are that hardcore-hyper. Invicta and swathdiver 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members John81 Posted January 14, 2016 Members Share Posted January 14, 2016 Indeed there are actually a number of folks out there who proclaim only the writings of Paul are for Christians today. Some go so far as to say we shouldn't even read most other books of the Bible. The teaching that Paul's Gospel is any different than the one true Gospel and his books are to be set apart in some manner for our special attention, whether in a soft or hardcore manner is unscriptural dangerous false teaching that shouldn't be tolerated. Along with these are those who call themselves "red letter Christians", with some going to the point of disregarding most everything in the Bible except what has been printed in red in their Bible. Dangerous teachings that have no basis in truth and should be separated from. LindaR 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Critical Mass Posted January 14, 2016 Members Share Posted January 14, 2016 6 hours ago, Ukulelemike said: Actually, I have known hyper dispensationalists who believe just that. They see Jesus as a dispensation, then Peter and the Jewish believers were a dispensation, but only to Israel, (and that they preached a gospel of faith + works), and then Paul is the dispensation for believers. They seem to miss that Paul preached quite a bit to Jews, and that Peter opened to door initially to the Gentiles. Also, Paul and Peter both claimed to be preaching the same gospel, and Peter says in Acts 15, "But we believe that through the grace of the Lord Jesus Christ we shall be saved, even as they." He didn't see a different gospel. So yeah, there are those out there who are that hardcore-hyper. Yes, but they still don't teach that only parts of the bible are for Christians ("all scriptures are profitable") while others are not. At least none that I ever read. They may say that certain parts (like Paul's epistles) only apply doctrinally to Christians but never that you toss out everything else. I can go into Exodus and find verses about the boards and silver knobs of the tabernacle and find some kind of spiritual application for Christians but I'm not teaching it as church age doctrine. This is what people are not getting here; there is a threefold interpretation of the bible: historical, doctrinal and spiritual. Paul's epistles apply exclusively to the church. It is church age doctrine from the apostle to the Gentiles. The gospels, Acts and the Jewish epistles have plenty of church age doctrine because of their placement after the cross but they are not exclusive for the church. There is some doctrine in those books that applies only to Israel. Also, it's clear from Acts 2:38 that Peter was preaching something different initially. Do you preach that as the gospel? Do you know anyone other than maybe a Church of Christ preacher that preaches it that way? And I mean the way it says in the KJV not the way it may say after tearing it apart with the "original language" like John R. Rice did. I don't know anyone who preaches, "Repent and be baptized for the remission of sins" and, oh yeah, you will "receive the gift of the Holy Ghost" afterwords. 5 hours ago, John81 said: Dangerous teachings that have no basis in truth and should be separated from. You mean like the teachings that Invicta and Covenantor have been spewing out for years in this forum? beameup 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members John81 Posted January 14, 2016 Members Share Posted January 14, 2016 5 hours ago, Critical Mass said: You mean like the teachings that Invicta and Covenantor have been spewing out for years in this forum? Take note that Covenanter was banned from this site yet in all his views which were deemed unacceptable he was clear there was only one means of salvation, just as Scripture says. False teaching on salvation is far more dangerous than various views regarding the end times. Peter, Paul, James, John, all the other Apostles and Jesus all taught one and the same Gospel, the only means of salvation for anyone ever. swathdiver and Pastor Scott Markle 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Ronda Posted January 14, 2016 Members Share Posted January 14, 2016 When you accepted Christ (by grace through faith in Jesus Christ) you were then sealed with the Holy Spirit. The tribulation believer's will not have that same indwelling of the Holy Spirit (or do you believe they will?). This is part of your salvation, is it not? The only thing you "did" to receive the Holy Spirit was to accept/believe upon Christ. I believe it happens the very moment we believe and accept Christ. So this "part" of salvation will not occur for those saved during the time of Jacob's trouble. Yet somehow, they are saved the exact same way? How can that be? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members swathdiver Posted January 14, 2016 Members Share Posted January 14, 2016 (edited) 22 hours ago, Oὐ Νικολαΐτης said: why did Paul say this? Because the Corinthian church was being lead astray by ravenous wolves in sheep's clothing! "Don't listen to those wolves, follow me!" Or maybe Ruckman told him to write it? Edited January 14, 2016 by swathdiver Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members beameup Posted January 14, 2016 Members Share Posted January 14, 2016 the things that I [Paul] write unto you are the commandments of the Lord 1 Corinth 14:37b As also in all his [Pauls] epistles, speaking in them of these things; in which are some things hard to be understood, which they that are unlearned and unstable wrest, as they do also the other scriptures, unto their own destruction. 2 Peter 3:16 According to the grace of God which is given unto me, as a wise masterbuilder, I [Paul] have laid the foundation 1 Cor 3:10a But I certify you, brethren, that the gospel which was preached of me is not after man. (not from any man... including "the twelve") For I neither received it of man, neither was I taught it, but by the [direct] revelation of Jesus Christ. Gal 1:11-12 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members No Nicolaitans Posted January 18, 2016 Author Members Share Posted January 18, 2016 Paul apparently approved of the other apostles' gospel preaching... 1 Corinthians 15:9-11 9 For I am the least of the apostles, that am not meet to be called an apostle, because I persecuted the church of God. 10 But by the grace of God I am what I am: and his grace which was bestowed upon me was not in vain; but I laboured more abundantly than they all: yet not I, but the grace of God which was with me. 11 Therefore whether it were I or they, so we preach, and so ye believed. Pastor Scott Markle and Alan 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members beameup Posted January 18, 2016 Members Share Posted January 18, 2016 A better question might be: are there any epistles that are written to (set aside for) a "future" group of disciples that will have to endure the Tribulation (following the Rapture)? Where is boasting then? It is excluded. By what law? of works? Nay: but by the law of faith. Yea, but, but, but: Ye see then how that by works a man is justified, and not by faith only. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Alan Posted January 18, 2016 Members Share Posted January 18, 2016 (edited) 3 hours ago, beameup said: A better question might be: are there any epistles that are written to (set aside for) a "future" group of disciples that will have to endure the Tribulation (following the Rapture)? Where is boasting then? It is excluded. By what law? of works? Nay: but by the law of faith. Yea, but, but, but: Ye see then how that by works a man is justified, and not by faith only. The above verse quoted by beameup, James 2:24, is miss-used and taken out of context and has a faulty interpretation of salvation in the Tribulation Period. Why not quote James 2:18, "Yea, a man may say, Thou hast faith, and I have works: shew me thy faith without thy works, and I will shew me my faith by my works." Why not quote James 2:22, "Seest thou how faith wrought with his works, and by works was made perfect? If so, and a "future" group of disciples had to endure to the end of the Tribulation (following the Rapture), to be eternally saved, then the Lord Jesus Christ did not die for them and the "future group of disciples" could "boast" in heaven they were made righteous by their own merit or works and God is in 'debt' to them and would have to give them eternal salvation. And, these 'future groups of disciples could 'glory' in their own works for salvation. The teaching that a 'future group of disciples who would have to endure to the end of the Tribulation' is heresy and contrary to the Old Testament and New Testament doctrine of justification by grace through faith. I would suggest to our brethren who believe in such a teaching to re-study the doctrine of justifcation by grace through faith in the book of Romans. The doctrine of justification, as revealed in Romans, by faith is the only means of eternal justification for anybody, in any age, and in any country: this includes the Jewish people in the Tribulation Period. "What shall we say then that Abraham our father, as pertaining to the flesh, hath found? For if Abraham were justified by works, he hath whereof to glory; but not before God." Romans 4:1 and 2 "Now to him that worketh is the reward not reckoned of grace, but of debt." Romans 4:4 "Where is boasting then? It is excluded. by what law? of works? Nay: but of the law of faith." Romans 3:27 Edited January 18, 2016 by Alan spelling (twice) swathdiver, Pastor Scott Markle, No Nicolaitans and 1 other 4 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members beameup Posted January 18, 2016 Members Share Posted January 18, 2016 (edited) Most "assume" that after the Rapture that the world will immediately go into the Tribulation. hmmmmmmm Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins. Acts 2:38 ---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- As also in all his [Paul's] epistles, speaking in them of these things; in which are some things hard to be understood, which they that are unlearned and unstable wrest [wrestle], as they do also the other scriptures, unto their own destruction. 2 Peter 3:16 File under: "Wrestling with Paul's Epistles" Edited January 18, 2016 by beameup Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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