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Church Unity


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Well, I have thrown down a gauntlet in our church yesterday, as the church vision for 2016.

On careful consideration, I have come to the conclusion that a big reason that our little church has both never grown, and in fact, continues to decrease, and never seems to be used much in our community, despite efforts on our part, is because, in the 13 years I have been here as pastor, we've never had a real, biblical unity. I got reading in John 17, where Jesus prays for the unity of believers, something oft misused by those who would subvert true unity for a false ecumenism, and it is clear as to the kind of unity a local church ought to have, found in Jesus' words.

 That they all may be one; as thou, Father, art in me, and I in thee, that they also may be one in us: that the world may believe that thou hast sent me. And the glory which thou gavest me I have given them; that they may be one, even as we are one: I in them, and thou in me, that they may be made perfect in one; and that the world may know that thou hast sent me, and hast loved them, as thou hast loved me.

So going through this, it is clear that at the very least a church ought to be one, even as Jesus and His Father are one: and taking this, not so much in the area of deity, but unity of thought, of goals, of plans, of doctrine, really unity down to the jot and tittle, as Jesus and His Father are. Unity in all godly truth. And this is our problem: Being in a small community, we tend to have folks who bounce between churches, who have no idea that there are differences-so we have had, since I have been pastor, people who considered themselves Methodists, Pentecostals, Nazarenes, Lutherans, Southern Baptists, all while attending our IFB church. And as they would inevitably come across those areas of difference, I would get arguments and disagreements, and people skipping, say, a resurrection day service to take their kids to the church having the Easter egg hunt, (and wonder why I was irritated by it), or just plain walk out with no explanation, or tell me why they are leaving and flat out refuse to discuss the matters biblically.

So, as of now, as small as we are, we have one fellow who is more or less SBC, a couple who are from an AOG background, but decided for whatever reason, to come be a 'help' to us, a once-in-a-while family that are some IFB, (having been saved there and all their training there), and the parents, well, whatever seemed right to them to be, and a young couple that are of Baptist upbringing and one saved at our church so he is IFB, she is, well, a bit rebellious but young yet.   So I decided it was time to introduce the rubber to the road, and yesterday morning, I declared the importance of  unity for a church to be used of God, unity of truth, that we needed to either be IFB Christians or find somewhere we could be in unity. Over the next, oh, maybe month or so, I told them I am going to be teaching on some of the very controversial issues that I know there is disagreement on-tongues, 'spiritual gifts', social gospel-type stuff, (feeding the poor, etc, is it our responsibility), CCM,  things of this nature. As I teach, I told them, if you disagree, keep good notes, don't get mad, stay put and listen-when I have done what I will, then we will go over differences and using scripture as our foundation, we will go over people's differences. At the end, if we cannot find unity, those who wish will go find somewhere they will be in unity with, and those who can find unity, will stay. If there can be overall no unity, then by the end of the year, the church will close its doors and my wife and I will find another church to be a part of until such time the Lord should call me back to the pulpit.

I just decided we can't keep pussy-footing around, pretending we can get over the issues. Time to lay it all on the line. So any prayer to this end would be appreciated.

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Unity in a church is very important. We have several members in our church who came out of Lutheran churches and thankfully they will each say they "used to be" Lutheran. None of them still identify as Lutheran.

We had one woman who said even after coming to Christ and learning that some aspects of the Catholic church aren't what she once thought she still considered herself a Catholic. She stayed in our church almost a year. Even after hearing sound preaching during that time and a few of our ladies trying to help her grow in Christ and understand the "why" of needing to let go of the RCC she never let go of her belief she's a Catholic. She moved on to another church where she won't be having folks "speaking ill" of her Catholic background and the RCC.

Hopefully your congregation hasn't had dealings with a variety of IFB churches because these days even IFB churches are all over the map when it comes to so many points. There are now IFB churches which use MVs and CCM; some have dropped dress standards, opened some doors to yoking with other churches for certain matters, dropped separation standards when it comes to politics, softened their positions on divorce and shacking up, and on and on.

As our pastor says, the devil is really hammering local churches and some in those churches are holding the nails for him!

May God bless your efforts and separate the sheep from the goats.

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11 hours ago, Ukulelemike said:

tongues, 'spiritual gifts', social gospel-type stuff

Prayers for you and your congregation sent up!!!  I have many "friends" (truly more acquaintances) who also have been taught (wrongly) in their respective denominations in regard to these very difficulties you are seeing in your congregation. I first show them all of the biblical reference as to why the apostolic gifts are no longer in effect (such as bringing out that they can't drink poison and live, they can't handle deadly snakes, they can't heal others "on demand", and many such other things).

So isn't it strange that they pick supposed "speaking in tongues" and supposed "prophesying" as their supposed "gifts". Why? The answer of course is that they can't be as quickly dis-proven. 

Just for the "speaking in tongues" crowd I attempt to reason (scripturally), and show them that faith, hope, and charity are what remains for this dispensation, (and when they still don't "see it"), I then go on to tell them, "Okay, suppose (hypothetically) you COULD speak in tongues in your services"... I then show them the verses regarding that and how they aren't even following the Bible in HOW they should speak in tongues, if they COULD speak in tongues.

Acts 2:11 "Cretes and Arabians, we do hear them speak in our tongues the wonderful works of God."
In this verse we see that tongues here is clearly showing a different language, (the Cretians and Arbaic languages in this case), and the gift of tongues was used for translating between the languages, to translate one clear message of the gospel.

Now days we see these false charismatic teachers having "services" wherein the congregation are rolling around on the floor, dancing, bouncing, rocking back and forth, and claiming to be speaking in tongues. 
I have no doubt that some of them are being led by A spirit, but I contend it is NOT the Holy Spirit leading them, but instead, is demonic in nature.

1 Cor. 14:11 "Therefore if I know not the meaning of the voice, I shall be unto him that speaketh a barbarian, and he that speaketh shall be a barbarian unto me."
This verse tells us that speaking in "tongues" profits no-one if there isn't one to interpret.

1 Cor. 14:19 "Yet in the church I had rather speak five words with my understanding, that by my voice I might teach others also, than ten thousand words in an unknown tongue."
Paul's telling them he can be sure (he knows his own language) that he's speaking truth when he's speaking his own language.

*****Here's the clincher they seem to bypass every time:
1 Cor 14:27 "If any man speak in an unknown tongue, let it be by two, or at the most by three, and that by course; and let one interpret."
28 "But if there be no interpreter, let him keep silence in the church; and let him speak to himself, and to God."

I then ask them if there are ONLY 2 or 3 (at MOST) speaking in "tongues" in their services?
And I then ask them if they have an interpreter for each person speaking in "tongues"?

They almost all invariably answer "NO... BUT..." (and then attempt to add human reasoning to finish the sentence).
This shows an utter disrespect of what God's word says.  They SAY they use scripture to "prove" that speaking in tongues is "valid", but then they throw out the very verses which insist on the order presribed for speaking in tongues itself.
There is no reverence of God's Word with these types. Most of which have done little Bible study on their own (if any), but have instead blindly accepted what has been told to them. First of all they refuse to note the fact that apostolic gifts are no longer in effect, and secondly once they can't see past that, they make their 2nd huge flaw in not following what the very Bible has to say about HOW tongues were to be used and interpreted.

So the answer to the great question on HOW to show Bible truths to those who do not rever the Bible as God's very Word to us?
The only answer I can find is to: check their salvation... have they truly accepted Christ as their Lord and Savior? And if so, WHY do they not want to take God's word reverently and literally? 
Do they have zero desire to read and study God's word between one Sunday service to the next Sunday service? If not what is their excuse? Are they placing worldly desires (TV/sports/hobbies, etc) above study time with God? If they claim to be studying God's word often, ask them  (if they think they can speak in "tongues") why isn't the Bible followed in 1 Cor 14:27-28 specifically. Attempt to show them if they have no regard for God's word in either case (both that the apostolc gifts are no longer in use and then in the fact that they aren't following Bible "procedure" for "speaking in tongues") then ask them do they really believe God's word or do they prefer man's word?  I know that won't likely be the remedy to their (wrongly) ingrained belief, but MAYBE they will at least ponder their false beliefs. You certainly don't have to take my advice here... this is just what I (personally) attempt to show such "charismatic" friends. I can't say whether it has actually caused ANYONE to ponder/change their erroneous beliefs, but I feel strongly that God would want us all to at least once attempt to show them the truth. Then the "ball is in His court", and God will do the dealing with their hearts (if it's His Will to do so).

I'm praying for your church also. God Bless!!!

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12 hours ago, Ukulelemike said:

Well, I have thrown down a gauntlet in our church yesterday, as the church vision for 2016.

I just decided we can't keep pussy-footing around, pretending we can get over the issues. Time to lay it all on the line. So any prayer to this end would be appreciated.

Brother Mike,

I commend you for your strong stand and Godly motives in this endeavor. Under the best circumstances unity is difficult to accomplish, but in a case such as yours where the church is small and made up of differing backgrounds it is most difficult.

There are sure to be difficulties that simply won't be overcome by the truth, but don't let this discourage you. God has impressed you with the need for unity even in your small corner of the world and He will see you through to His desired end of the issue.

You may very well lose some people over this and that would probably be the hardest discouragement for you. But remember in these times that he has told us that His Word not only saves people, but it also separates people.
John 6:64 But there are some of you that believe not. For Jesus knew from the beginning who they were that believed not, and who should betray him. 
65 And he said, Therefore said I unto you, that no man can come unto me, except it were given unto him of my Father. 
66 From that time many of his disciples went back, and walked no more with him.

Even though there may be some in your church that will not accept the truth, it is imperative that they at least hear it and have the opportunity to believe the truth.
Rom. 1:20 For the invisible things of him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even his eternal power and Godhead; so that they are without excuse:

Since I came and preached for you last winter, I have consistently been in prayer for both you and your church. I have asked my church to pray for you and your church also.

If I can be of any help in your renewed quest for unity, please feel free to let me know. I will help in any way I can. Perhaps your people hearing the truth of God's word from someone they are not familiar with may be of some help. Sometimes it is easy for people to discount the teaching of one who is familiar to them and they already know his stand on issues. It then becomes easy to just gloss over any points of contention and "go with the flow", as it were.

There is much to be said in regard to the witness of two or more; this may be one of the reasons that we see the disciples sent out by two's.

I continue to hold you and your church up to our God in prayer daily. May God richly bless you as you serve Him

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Jim and Rhonda, I appreciate your support and prayers and advice. Yeah, now that I have set the direction, the most difficult part is deciding where to begin.

One couple, from an AOG background, when I spoke this Sunday, asked after service if they had offended me, and I assured them they had not, and that, while some of the subjects might seem directed toward them, yet there were other tings that others in the church held to that I would be dealing with, and that, ultimately, it was important for us ALL.

Yes, tongues is one of the more difficult issues. One area that I have seen some success in, is that, 1Cor 14: 20 tells us that tongues was given for a specific purpose, as a fulfillment of an OT prophecy, that it was never given for just general church use, but as a sign of authentication of the Lord's hand in the church FOR ISRAEL. This is why we first and mostly see it on Pentecost, in dealing with Jews from all over.  Oddly, many people will agree, except they also have their prayer language. Yeah, prayer language is a big sticky point, even though their scriptural 'proof' is weaker than damp toilet paper holding a bowling ball. It is just so personal, so emotionally edifying to them, something that has become so integral to their perceived relationship with God, it is very hard to pull them from. As well as the experience aspect of it: I have DONE IT! Are you saying I am WRONG? A hard thing to work with.

 This lady told me, "You won't change my mind on my prayer tongues, pastor." I answered, "Good, I don't want to change your mind-if a mind is changed, it must be the Spirit of God that does it-don't do anything for me."

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Yes, the tongues issue can be a difficult thing with some. Those who mumble-jumble for attention are easier to confront than those who confine their tongues to their private prayer language.

With some it's easy to see they are faking or forcing their tongue talking and these tend to get either nervous or angry when Scripture regarding tongues usage is brought up. The former are more open to correction than the others.

What I've found most difficult in trying to understand in this is those who are (as far as we are able to tell) born again followers of Christ who pray in tongues during some of their prayer times.

I've never spoken in tongues. The first time I heard of such was not long after I was saved. As a babe in Christ I remember after hearing of speaking in tongues I prayed to the Lord that if it was His will for me to speak in tongues I was willing. I've never felt compelled to try and speak in tongues, I've never received a spiritual gift of speaking in tongues in any manner (not in speaking another language, mumbo-jumbo, or a prayer language).

Back in the early 90s the Baptist church I attended at that time lost a few members who "received the gift of speaking in tongues" (according to them). It wasn't the fact they claimed to have such a gift that caused the problem but rather their attempts to push the rest of the congregation into receiving the gift of tongues too. It finally got to the point where they started telling us if we weren't speaking in tongues then we hadn't been baptized in the Spirit and that meant we weren't really following Christ. We couldn't have that going on so they were told either they stop with their obsession with speaking in tongues, leave, or be put out. They left and the last I heard of them they were attending a Charismatic type church.

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Amen, brother!  I was just reading something today that was stressing the importance of teaching the fourteen essential Christian doctrines (they were, of course, trying to sell curriculum) and in order to drive home the point they cited surveys by Barna that said 40% of those claiming to be Christian did not believe Jesus lived a sinless life while on earth, and 21% admitted that Christian beliefs did not make sense to them.  Our churches need to get back to teaching the basics and emphasizing the TRUTH.  Yes, there will probably be a lot of people who will leave.  At first it can be very disheartening, but only when the dead wood is cut out can the tree experience healthy growth.  Little is much when God is in it!  God bless you in your endeavor, I will certainly be praying.  If I may ask, what is the name of your church, so I can add it to my prayer list....

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1 hour ago, trapperhoney said:

Amen, brother!  I was just reading something today that was stressing the importance of teaching the fourteen essential Christian doctrines (they were, of course, trying to sell curriculum) and in order to drive home the point they cited surveys by Barna that said 40% of those claiming to be Christian did not believe Jesus lived a sinless life while on earth, and 21% admitted that Christian beliefs did not make sense to them.  Our churches need to get back to teaching the basics and emphasizing the TRUTH.  Yes, there will probably be a lot of people who will leave.  At first it can be very disheartening, but only when the dead wood is cut out can the tree experience healthy growth.  Little is much when God is in it!  God bless you in your endeavor, I will certainly be praying.  If I may ask, what is the name of your church, so I can add it to my prayer list....

Assuming you were asking me, it's Bible Baptist Church in Herlong, CA. Thanks for the prayers-we can always use them!

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