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Ukulelemike

Movie: "God's Not Dead"

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Anyone else see this move, "God's Not Dead"?

A friend loaned it to me to watch. It wasn't too bad, had a good story to it, decent acting, a bit too obvious in places. And I didn't like the music. But I noticed one big thing about it, and I am wondering if anyone else did, too: It was, at its core, a big commercial for the Newsboys CCM group.

Seriously, it was named for one of their songs; every scene had some kind of Newsboys mention in it: a poster, an ad, a t-shirt, an announcement, and finally, all wrapping up by everyone in the movie meeting up at a Newsboys concert, where, by chance, the newsboys themselves hold off going on stage to give the gospel to a woman. Then the big finale, singing the theme song, God's Not Dead. It was really just an overlong music video that took an hour to get to the music video part. It was pretty irritating to me and just shows what it comes down to: advertising. We will talk about Jesus, but the while thing will culminate at the rock concert for Jesus, (with the money going to the Newsboys).

Anyone else notice this?

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Some flaws in the mix, as with all we do, but also some good meat that can benefit many.

Some brothers in Christ I know were emboldened and challenged by the movie to take a more active role in confronting the lies put forth by many in the form of pithy, fact-sounding statements.

In my own experience, most who spout off those anti-christian lies aren't prepared to defend them since so few ever challenge their "factual" statements. Most often they are left looking uninformed and unable to support their own statements, and/or like an angry person with no argument to make other than to spew anger and hate. Either way, any thinking observer will benefit.

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48 minutes ago, John81 said:

Some flaws in the mix, as with all we do, but also some good meat that can benefit many.

Some brothers in Christ I know were emboldened and challenged by the movie to take a more active role in confronting the lies put forth by many in the form of pithy, fact-sounding statements.

In my own experience, most who spout off those anti-christian lies aren't prepared to defend them since so few ever challenge their "factual" statements. Most often they are left looking uninformed and unable to support their own statements, and/or like an angry person with no argument to make other than to spew anger and hate. Either way, any thinking observer will benefit.

And this is the whole problem, apparently, in our churches-people aren't being challenged and taught to give an answer there, but by golly, a movie can sure do it!  Anything that we can learn from a movie, can be taught in a church, if the pastor is willing, and the church is engaged. Sadly, both seem to be lacking today, and people need to be entertained into doing anything for Christ.

And, everything that fellow in the movie did for Christ, that taught people to be emboldened, I have learned, and much more, from Kent Hovind and his seminars on creation vs evolution. He also has excellent DVD's of his debates with atheists and college professors and such, that show it can be done. So really, I can find far better ways to teach believers to stand for the faith, both in direct teaching and examples from godly men like Hovind and others, without resorting to over-long advertisements for pop-culture Christianity.

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No doubt there are better ways to learn things but for many they either don't know of such, don't have access, or would likely miss it if they didn't pick it up in this or another movie.

Pastors can't cover every possible scenario so each pastor will have areas they either haven't touched upon, only did so in passing, or preached/taught things which could be applied but were preached/taught with regard to another aspect and the hearers never connect the dots so they see how to apply what works in one situation into another.

As we know, most Christians in America attend churches that tend to be overly lacking. Considering many of their pastors came from similar churches and attended Bible colleges or seminaries of like manner, it's little wonder so many Christians never mature.

So, as Paul said, praise God for the Gospel going forth even when not put forth as best it should. Hopefully some of us are able to reach some of those inspired by the movie and we can help them to set their feet more firmly upon the right path.

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11 hours ago, Ukulelemike said:

both in direct teaching and examples from godly men like Hovind and others, without resorting to over-long advertisements for pop-culture Christianity.

Kent Hovind believes in a post-trib rapture, and learned his new "theory" in jail (admittedly). What a fine "godly" example??? He also now claims (now --- meaning after his "spiritual enlightenment" in jail) that the Jewish people in Israel aren't really even "Jews".  Very interesting turn about this "godly" man has made. I'm not surprised with apostasy running rampant... ALL over the place...

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Speaking of the Hovind's, I just picked up some goodies for Christmas at The Creation Store in Pensacola the other day.  The hour is indeed late and few will enter into the straight gate.  Thank the Lord that I'm one of them and my wife and my children and now my mother-in-law!

I remember thinking when I saw Willy Robertson and his wife, that the fools who made the movie were lacking enough bible knowledge to know that the Duck Dynasty family believes in another God and Christ and not the Jesus Christ of Scripture.  Their show is very dangerous for baby christians who might look into their beliefs.  I suspect however, that many will count them as brothers in christ and never even bother to look into their religion.  After all, most of them are headed for hell too!

Edited by swathdiver

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18 hours ago, Ronda said:

Kent Hovind believes in a post-trib rapture, and learned his new "theory" in jail (admittedly). What a fine "godly" example??? He also now claims (now --- meaning after his "spiritual enlightenment" in jail) that the Jewish people in Israel aren't really even "Jews".  Very interesting turn about this "godly" man has made. I'm not surprised with apostasy running rampant... ALL over the place...

I hold to a post tribulation rapture as well, and believe the Bible best shows this to be the case. As for his other 'theory', not sure what you mean. Care to extrapolate? And I have head that many believe that the Jews in Israel are Ashkenazi Jews, which are actually real Jews, just those from an intermarrying with Europeans. And while I haven't done much study on this issue, you do have to admit that most Jews today seem pretty light-skinned in many cases, odd if they are pure-blood Semitic Jews, who should be much darker, more like the Arabs in the areas. But again, I don't know and really I don't see if it matters.

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You believe in a post-trib rapture and you represent (as a moderator) the Independent Fundamental Baptist group? And you use 2 Tim 4 as your signature? I'd say I am surprised at the irony... but since I also feel confident these are the last days and apostasy is in full swing... I am not really surprised at all.  FUNDAMENTAL? (Catholics believe in the post-trib theory... I guess they are "fundamental Catholics"?  

If you (personally)believe you can make it through to the end of the time of Jacob's trouble...and don't believe that Jesus has delivered us from the wrath to come... that's your prerogative.  Personally, I believe I will wait for Jesus who has already promised He has delivered me from the wrath to come. 1 Thes 1:10 "And to wait for his Son from heaven, whom he raised from the dead, even Jesus, which delivered us from the wrath to come". 

I also feel very confident in the words of a blessed hope meaning just that... blessed and hopeful! You state your post-trib position is  what you " believe the Bible best shows this to be the case" and you asked me to extrapolate... so I will. 

Titus 2:13 "Looking for that blessed hope, and the glorious appearing of the great God and our Saviour Jesus Christ" 
There is nothing blessed or hopeful about the day of the Lord. 

Things that are different are not the same (as the old kindergarten song goes):
Amos 5:18 "18 Woe unto you that desire the day of the Lord! to what end is it for you? the day of the Lord is darkness, and not light"
What is hopeful or blessed about that?

Contrast #1: The rapture is something to look forward to a blessing, a comforting thought.
    v/s The 2nd coming is a day of WOE, a day of darkness.

1 Thes 4:16 "For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:"
 17 "Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord."
 18 "Wherefore comfort one another with these words."
v/s 
Isaiah 13:9 "Behold, the day of the Lord cometh, cruel both with wrath and fierce anger..."

Contrast #2: Once again, the Lord promises words of comfort concerning the rapture.
    v/s The 2nd coming: The day of the Lord is cruel, with wrath and with fierce anger.

Revelation 19:14 "And the armies which were in heaven followed him upon white horses, clothed in fine linen, white and clean."

Contrast #3: In the rapture, we see the church (saved during age of grace) going UP with Jesus (clearly depicted in 1 Thes 4:16-18, above)
    At the 2nd coming the church (saved during age of grace) will be returning with Jesus as depicted in Rev. 19:14

1 Thes 5:9 "For God hath not appointed us to wrath, but to obtain salvation by our Lord Jesus Christ,"
 10 "Who died for us, that, whether we wake or sleep, we should live together with him."
 11 "Wherefore comfort yourselves together, and edify one another, even as also ye do."
v/s the previous verse:
1 Thes 5:3 "For when they shall say, Peace and safety; then sudden destruction cometh upon them, as travail upon a woman with child; and they shall not escape."

Contrast #4: the difference between the YE/US and the THEY/THEM.  
WE are not appointed to wrath...we are given the instruction (yet again) of comfort (the saved during church age)
 v/s THEY will suffer sudden destruction. (those in the tribulation)

1 Thes 4:17 "Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord." 
v/s
Zech 14:4 "And his feet shall stand in that day upon the mount of Olives, which is before Jerusalem on the east, and the mount of Olives shall cleave in the midst thereof toward the east and toward the west, and there shall be a very great valley; and half of the mountain shall remove toward the north, and half of it toward the south."

Contrast #5: Those who mock the pre-trib rapture like to call it our "secret rapture", as if somehow a derogatory term.
What did Paul have to say about it? He called it a MYSTERY. In the rapture, we will meet the Lord in the air. 
v/s During the 2nd coming Jesus feet will stand upon the mount of Olives (splitting it in half) on the earth. 

1 Cor. 15:51 "Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed,"
 52 "In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed."
 53 "For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality."
v/s 
Isaiah 65:20 "There shall be no more thence an infant of days, nor an old man that hath not filled his days: for the child shall die an hundred years old; but the sinner being an hundred years old shall be accursed."
 21 "And they shall build houses, and inhabit them; and they shall plant vineyards, and eat the fruit of them."

Contrast #6: Rapture: In the same split-second of time (the twinkling of an eye) believer's will be given glorified bodies.
v/s 2nd coming: At the end of the tribulation, at the 2nd coming of Christ, those who accepted Christ (during the tribulation) and lived to the end will remain in human bodies to enter into the millennial kingdom. They will repopulate the earth.

John 14:3 "And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come again, and receive you unto myself; that where I am, there ye may be also."
v/s
1 Thes 3:13 "To the end he may stablish your hearts unblameable in holiness before God, even our Father, at the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ with all his saints."

Contrast #7, in the rapture: Christ comes for His own
V/s in the 2nd coming: Christ comes with His own


2 Thes 2:1 "Now we beseech you, brethren, by the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, and by our gathering together unto him"
v/s
Jude 1:14 "14 And Enoch also, the seventh from Adam, prophesied of these, saying, Behold, the Lord cometh with ten thousands of his saints"

Contrast #8 Rapture- we are gathered unto Christ
v/s 2nd coming: - we come back with Christ

1 Thes 4:17 "Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord."
v/s
Rev 19:7 "Let us be glad and rejoice, and give honour to him: for the marriage of the Lamb is come, and his wife hath made herself ready."
 8 "And to her was granted that she should be arrayed in fine linen, clean and white: for the fine linen is the righteousness of saints."
-14 "And the armies which were in heaven followed him upon white horses, clothed in fine linen, white and clean."

Contrast #9 Rapture- Christ claims His bride
v/s 2nd coming- Christ brings His bride with Him

contrast #10 Throughout scripture, during the age of grace, the church is told that the rapture could happen at any minute.. to be waiting for the Lord. It is imminent.
v/s The tribulation period is to last a total of 7 years. Knowing the time frame given throughout both Daniel and Revelation, the rapture could not be imminent if it were to come at the end of the tribulation.
 

Those are some of the biblical reason why I (personally) believe the Bible best shows the pre-trib rapture to be the case.  I also wonder why the church isn't mentioned even one time throughout all of the passages dealing with the tribulational-wrath period? In chapters 6-18 of Revelation, dealing with the judgments upon earth... why isn't there even one mention of the church being there on earth also?
I find it very  unusual in light of the prominence of the Church in the chapters dealing with events prior to and after the Tribulation....
It's odd (to me) that those who poke fun at the mystery of the rapture (when Paul himself called it a mystery), can't explain this mysterious circumstance in Revelation. Maybe you can extrapolate on that mystery for me?

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On ‎12‎/‎13‎/‎2015 at 11:20 AM, Ronda said:

perhaps I need to fist be more specific: I believe in a post-tribulation/pre-wrath coming of Christ. I believe the day of wrath is a part of, but still somewhat distinct fro the rest of the great Tribulation. So the rapture will occur, then the wrath of God will fall, then Christ will return, with us along with Him.

14 And I looked, and behold a white cloud, and upon the cloud one sat like unto the Son of man, having on his head a golden crown, and in his hand a sharp sickle. 15 And another angel came out of the temple, crying with a loud voice to him that sat on the cloud, Thrust in thy sickle, and reap: for the time is come for thee to reap; for the harvest of the earth is ripe. 16 And he that sat on the cloud thrust in his sickle on the earth; and the earth was reaped. 17 And another angel came out of the temple which is in heaven, he also having a sharp sickle. 18 And another angel came out from the altar, which had power over fire; and cried with a loud cry to him that had the sharp sickle, saying, Thrust in thy sharp sickle, and gather the clusters of the vine of the earth; for her grapes are fully ripe. 19 And the angel thrust in his sickle into the earth, and gathered the vine of the earth, and cast it into the great winepress of the wrath of God. 20:And the winepress was trodden without the city, and blood came out of the winepress, even unto the horse bridles, by the space of a thousand and six hundred furlongs." (Rev 14:14-20)

Tell me what Christ is doing here in Rev 14-16? Jesus reaps from the harvest of the earth, but nothing is mentioned being done with what He has reaped. THEN an angel gathers from the vine of the earth, and casts the clusters of the vine into the winepress of God's wrath. Thus begins the falling of God's wrath upon the earth. Simply, Jesus has just reaped HIS harvest, believers, from the earth, before the falling of wrath. We are promised tribulation in this world, but also told that we are not to face wrath.

You believe in a post-trib rapture and you represent (as a moderator) the Independent Fundamental Baptist group? And you use 2 Tim 4 as your signature? I'd say I am surprised at the irony... but since I also feel confident these are the last days and apostasy is in full swing... I am not really surprised at all.  FUNDAMENTAL? (Catholics believe in the post-trib theory... I guess they are "fundamental Catholics"?  First, the Catholics don't specifically believe in a second coming, as they believe that the Pope IS the person of Christ on earth.

If you (personally)believe you can make it through to the end of the time of Jacob's trouble...and don't believe that Jesus has delivered us from the wrath to come... that's your prerogative.  Personally, I believe I will wait for Jesus who has already promised He has delivered me from the wrath to come. 1 Thes 1:10 "And to wait for his Son from heaven, whom he raised from the dead, even Jesus, which delivered us from the wrath to come". Yes He will deliver us from the wrath to come-the wrath which follows the tribulation period. Seven vials of wrath.  As for whether or not I will 'make it through' to the end of Jacob's troubles, I don't know, but I suspect maybe not many will, since it will be given to the Antichrist to make war with the saints and overcome them. That means kill. (Rev 13:7). 1The 4, Paul states that "We who are alive and remain", which sounds to me like most of us will NOT be alive and remain."

I also feel very confident in the words of a blessed hope meaning just that... blessed and hopeful! You state your post-trib position is  what you " believe the Bible best shows this to be the case" and you asked me to extrapolate... so I will. 

Titus 2:13 "Looking for that blessed hope, and the glorious appearing of the great God and our Saviour Jesus Christ" 
There is nothing blessed or hopeful about the day of the Lord. 

Things that are different are not the same (as the old kindergarten song goes):
Amos 5:18 "18 Woe unto you that desire the day of the Lord! to what end is it for you? the day of the Lord is darkness, and not light"
What is hopeful or blessed about that?

Contrast #1: The rapture is something to look forward to a blessing, a comforting thought.
    v/s The 2nd coming is a day of WOE, a day of darkness.

1 Thes 4:16 "For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:"
 17 "Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord."
 18 "Wherefore comfort one another with these words."  Why is the rapture, in context, a comfort? because we're going to be delivered from the tribulation period? I don't see that anywhere. The context is the hope of seeing our loved ones again who have died in the Lord-nothing at all about timing, just the fact of the rapture and the resurrection. That we have the hope of a new life eternally, and to see our saved loved ones again.
v/s 
Isaiah 13:9 "Behold, the day of the Lord cometh, cruel both with wrath and fierce anger..."

Contrast #2: Once again, the Lord promises words of comfort concerning the rapture.
    v/s The 2nd coming: The day of the Lord is cruel, with wrath and with fierce anger. Absolutely-and we will be delivered before that day of wrath comes. Doesn't mean we will escape the tribulation.

Revelation 19:14 "And the armies which were in heaven followed him upon white horses, clothed in fine linen, white and clean."

Contrast #3: In the rapture, we see the church (saved during age of grace) going UP with Jesus (clearly depicted in 1 Thes 4:16-18, above)
    At the 2nd coming the church (saved during age of grace) will be returning with Jesus as depicted in Rev. 19:14  Actually, everyone saved, not just from the church age, will be raised again at the resurrection, at the rapture. Not just the church(es). And this will be before the wrath falls in Rev 14:19, 20.

1 Thes 5:9 "For God hath not appointed us to wrath, but to obtain salvation by our Lord Jesus Christ,"  Yes, again, see above on the timing of the wrath of God.
 10 "Who died for us, that, whether we wake or sleep, we should live together with him."
 11 "Wherefore comfort yourselves together, and edify one another, even as also ye do."
v/s the previous verse:
1 Thes 5:3 "For when they shall say, Peace and safety; then sudden destruction cometh upon them, as travail upon a woman with child; and they shall not escape."

Contrast #4: the difference between the YE/US and the THEY/THEM.  
WE are not appointed to wrath...we are given the instruction (yet again) of comfort (the saved during church age)
 v/s THEY will suffer sudden destruction. (those in the tribulation)

1 Thes 4:17 "Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord." 
v/s
Zech 14:4 "And his feet shall stand in that day upon the mount of Olives, which is before Jerusalem on the east, and the mount of Olives shall cleave in the midst thereof toward the east and toward the west, and there shall be a very great valley; and half of the mountain shall remove toward the north, and half of it toward the south."

Contrast #5: Those who mock the pre-trib rapture like to call it our "secret rapture", as if somehow a derogatory term.
What did Paul have to say about it? He called it a MYSTERY. In the rapture, we will meet the Lord in the air. 
v/s During the 2nd coming Jesus feet will stand upon the mount of Olives (splitting it in half) on the earth. Yes, agreed. However, there is only one rapture, and it will take place just prior to the outpouring of God's wrath-Jesus will reap His harvest, a ripe (in the Greek the term ripe indicates dry, as in a ripe grain-believers are often symbolized as wheat-so the harvest of wheat, dry in ripeness will be gathered by Jesus), and then the angel will not reap, but gather the VINE (grapes) of the earth, and those will be cast into the winepress of wrath. Jesus will faithfully remove His before wrath falls.

1 Cor. 15:51 "Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed,"
 52 "In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed."
 53 "For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality." Ah, yes, at the last trump. When is "THE LAST TRUMP"? Notice in Rev 10:7, a brief comment on the sounding of the seventh angel, yet to some, when he blows his trumpet, the last trumpet of the seven, "But in the days of the voice of the seventh angel, when he shall begin to sound, the mystery of God should be finished, as he hath declared to his servants the prophets."  I ask what IS the mystery of God? It was the church, of course, the mystery that even the prophets didn't understand. After the sounding of the seventh angel's trumpet, the LAST trumpet, sounding the last trump, we shall be raised.

Now notice what happens when the seventh angel sounds the last trumpet: "And the seventh angel sounded; and there were great voices in heaven, saying, The kingdoms of this world are become the kingdoms of our Lord, and of his Christ; and he shall reign for ever and ever.And the four and twenty elders, which sat before God on their seats, fell upon their faces, and worshipped God, Saying, We give thee thanks, O Lord God Almighty, which art, and wast, and art to come; because thou hast taken to thee thy great power, and hast reigned. And the nations were angry, and thy wrath is come, and the time of the dead, that they should be judged, and that thou shouldest give reward unto thy servants the prophets, and to the saints, and them that fear thy name, small and great; and shouldest destroy them which destroy the earth."  If it is only NOW time to reward the saints, why? What have they been doing since they were raptured some six years earlier? No, this is the time for rewarding, because now is the time of the rapture and resurrection. now they will be available for their rewards.
v/s 
Isaiah 65:20 "There shall be no more thence an infant of days, nor an old man that hath not filled his days: for the child shall die an hundred years old; but the sinner being an hundred years old shall be accursed."
 21 "And they shall build houses, and inhabit them; and they shall plant vineyards, and eat the fruit of them."

Contrast #6: Rapture: In the same split-second of time (the twinkling of an eye) believer's will be given glorified bodies.
v/s 2nd coming: At the end of the tribulation, at the 2nd coming of Christ, those who accepted Christ (during the tribulation) and lived to the end will remain in human bodies to enter into the millennial kingdom. They will repopulate the earth. I disagree in part:  As for repopulating the earth, I assume you don't mean they will produce offspring, correct? No, I believe that those who were born again during the tribulation time will be resurrected immediately. mind you I can't back that up, but neither is there any indication it will be otherwise. however I do know that those who will repopulate the earth will be the 'sheep' seen in Matt 25, from the judgment of the nations, or the sheep and the goats. Why do I believe that? because these people are not being brought into the kingdom because they are saved, but because of their works. because of how they treated the people of God during the tribulation time-and we don't believe in a works-based salvation. The people are the same as mentioned in Zechariah 14:16: "And it shall come to pass, that every one that is left of all the nations which came against Jerusalem shall even go up from year to year to worship the King, the LORD of hosts, and to keep the feast of tabernacles."

John 14:3 "And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come again, and receive you unto myself; that where I am, there ye may be also."
v/s
1 Thes 3:13 "To the end he may stablish your hearts unblameable in holiness before God, even our Father, at the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ with all his saints."

Contrast #7, in the rapture: Christ comes for His own
V/s in the 2nd coming: Christ comes with His own 

Yes, in Rev 14:14-16 Jesus comes for His own. In Rev 19: 11-14, He comes WITH his own.


2 Thes 2:1 "Now we beseech you, brethren, by the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, and by our gathering together unto him"
v/s
Jude 1:14 "14 And Enoch also, the seventh from Adam, prophesied of these, saying, Behold, the Lord cometh with ten thousands of his saints"

Contrast #8 Rapture- we are gathered unto Christ
v/s 2nd coming: - we come back with Christ

1 Thes 4:17 "Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord."
v/s
Rev 19:7 "Let us be glad and rejoice, and give honour to him: for the marriage of the Lamb is come, and his wife hath made herself ready."
 8 "And to her was granted that she should be arrayed in fine linen, clean and white: for the fine linen is the righteousness of saints."
-14 "And the armies which were in heaven followed him upon white horses, clothed in fine linen, white and clean."

Contrast #9 Rapture- Christ claims His bride
v/s 2nd coming- Christ brings His bride with Him

contrast #10 Throughout scripture, during the age of grace, the church is told that the rapture could happen at any minute.. to be waiting for the Lord. It is imminent.
v/s The tribulation period is to last a total of 7 years. Knowing the time frame given throughout both Daniel and Revelation, the rapture could not be imminent if it were to come at the end of the tribulation.
 

Those are some of the biblical reason why I (personally) believe the Bible best shows the pre-trib rapture to be the case.  I also wonder why the church isn't mentioned even one time throughout all of the passages dealing with the tribulational-wrath period? In chapters 6-18 of Revelation, dealing with the judgments upon earth... why isn't there even one mention of the church being there on earth also?
I find it very  unusual in light of the prominence of the Church in the chapters dealing with events prior to and after the Tribulation....
It's odd (to me) that those who poke fun at the mystery of the rapture (when Paul himself called it a mystery), can't explain this mysterious circumstance in Revelation. Maybe you can extrapolate on that mystery for me?

While the 'church' is not mentioned once after the fourth chapter of Revelation, the saints are mentioned a few times. The prominence of the church before the tribulation begins is because the churches is those to whom the book is addressed, the seven churches of Asia. The church is never specifically mentioned again even after the tribulation, just spoken as the bride. The reason it is not dealt with is probably two-fold:

1: because the rest does, indeed, deal primarily with Israel, as well as the rest of the unsaved world, with God dealing with them, and with the Lord allowing Satan some amount of time persecuting them. It isn't dealing specifically with the church. BUT, just because the church isn't mentioned specifically, doesn't mean it isn't there-they are not the subject is all. Anything more than this is assumption. Also, it is a book of prophecy, not a doctrinal book.

2: because, due to persecution, there may not be any assembled churches-believers, yes, churches, perhaps not. But again, there are saints. Tell me, if there are saints, what are saints supposed to do? Assemble as local churches, correct? if there are saints, where are they assembling? ARE they assembling? Or are there different rules of believers during the tribulation? or is it just impossible for there to be churches due to persecution?

See, we have taken positions from a lack of information, rather than from the information we have. For instance: in rev 14, we see clearly Jesus reaping a harvest from the earth, sitting on a cloud, after the last trumpet has sounded, (at least the last one mentioned), just after an angel has shouted to Him to reap the earth. So, Jesus, clouds, last trump, voice of an angel, (archangel, maybe?) and something being removed by Jesus from earth. Sounds an awful lot like the prophecies of the rapture and resurrection. What we DON'T see is anywhere else in scripture of any other thing that could even hint at being a general removal of anything from earth by Jesus Christ in the clouds. Just the one time.

We also have an awful lot of verses in scripture that tell us of the fact of the rapture, but pretty much nothing concerning timing. All we know is that it MUST be before the wrath of God falls upon earth, and that occurs in rev 14:17-20.

as far as imminence, it is true that we don't know the day or the moment, but we ARE told we can know the times and seasons. "1 But of the times and the seasons, brethren, ye have no need that I write unto you. 2 For yourselves know perfectly that the day of the Lord so cometh as a thief in the night. 3 For when they shall say, Peace and safety; then sudden destruction cometh upon them, as travail upon a woman with child; and they shall not escape. 4 But ye, brethren, are not in darkness, that that day should overtake you as a thief." (1The 5:1-4)  Here, just after we are told about the coming of the Lord in the rapture, we are told that we don't need for Paul to write about the times and seasons, that even though Jesus comes as a thief in the night, yet because we are of the day, not the night, we won't be overtaken unawares. he comes as a thief to those who are not ready for Him. Thus, we CAN and should know the times and seasons, because the Bible tells us about when he is coming, in relation to the tribulation period. Now, understand that just because we know that, doesn't mean we will know the exact time-I mean, at what point has the last trumpet sounded? If here, will we really be able to know the exact day it begins? Remember, people will be eating and drinking and marrying and giving in marriage well after it has begun-many people won't even notice anything has happened, well into it. I suspect the only way believers will know is when we see the Antichrist come into power, an even that the Bible says we will be here to see, by the way.

There is so much more to be said, but since I don't want to sidetrack my post any more than we have here, I will quit. My position on the timing of the rapture was well known when I was given my place as a moderator. Until very recently, no one considered that to be considered a 'fundamental' of the faith. I am still an IFB, make no mistake.

Oh and by the way, Kent Hovind was always on the fence before he was in prison, concerning the timing of the rapture, though by his own admission, he had leaned toward this position. With more time to study, this is apparently the position he came to. As for any of his other beliefs, concerning the Jews, etc, I am not privy to them and cannot comment. But it is his views on biblical inerrancy and his work on the creation vs evolution that I look at when recommending him over a movie by the Newsboys.

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Do you agree with this statement?  
There will be saved (those saved during the tribulation)  and unsaved people at the end of the tribulation ?

I believe Rev. 14:14-20 clearly shows the unsaved (at the end of the tribulation period) being gathered together and cast into the winepress of the great wrath of God.

I believe those saved (accepting Christ as savior) during the tribulation period, who survive until the end, will be those who enter into the millennial kingdom in human bodies. THEY will be the ones to repopulate the earth.
WE (saved during age of grace) will be given glorified/uncorruptible bodies during the rapture (which I believe precedes the 70th week of Daniel). Therefore, we will NOT be capable of repopulating the earth by bearing offspring.

Therefore... instead of "us" (saved during church age-age of grace) are not those to whom Jesus will be separating in Rev. 14:14, but will be those who are saved during the tribulation period/70th week of Daniel.


There is something I consider to be an important factor overlooked in the view you bring forth...
The view you state would (in essence) mean that Jesus grabs up all the believers (supposedly the church age believers as well as the tribulation-age believers) there in Rev. 14:14?
If so... you believe THAT is the rapture? And if so, then we know from 1 Cor. 15:51-53 we receive incorruptible/glorified bodies at the time of the rapture, right?
Then we have a problem...because inthe millennium there will be people in human bodies, bearing children, repopulating the earth. Where did the come from? They can't be those of us in glorified/incorruptible bodies.

Who do you believe bears the offspring shown in this verse below?
Isaiah 65:23 "They shall not labour in vain, nor bring forth for trouble; for they are the seed of the blessed of the Lord, and their offspring with them."

This verse (above) shows that SOMEONE will be having offspring, who could it be?


Isaiah 65:20 "There shall be no more thence an infant of days, nor an old man that hath not filled his days: for the child shall die an hundred years old; but the sinner being an hundred years old shall be accursed."
 21 "And they shall build houses, and inhabit them; and they shall plant vineyards, and eat the fruit of them."

Again we see that these are people in human form (not glorified bodies) because a person will still be considered a "child" at the age of 100. We also see sinners there... who could those be?

We know it cannot be "us" (those saved during the age of grace) because we will be in glorified/incorruptible bodies as shown in 1 Cor. 15:51-53
51 "Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed,"
52 "In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed."
53 "For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality"

These incorruptible/glorified bodies we receive in the rapture will not be procreating and producing offspring:

Philippians 3:21 "Who shall change our vile body, that it may be fashioned like unto his glorious body, according to the working whereby he is able even to subdue all things unto himself."
1 John 3:2 "Beloved, now are we the sons of God, and it doth not yet appear what we shall be: but we know that, when he shall appear, we shall be like him; for we shall see him as he is."
Matthew 22:29 "Jesus answered and said unto them, Ye do err, not knowing the scriptures, nor the power of God."
 30 "For in the resurrection they neither marry, nor are given in marriage, but are as the angels of God in heaven."

So I conclude that we (saved during church age) must be taken prior to the event in Rev. 14:14-20. 
As we (saved during church age) will receive incorruptible bodies
Yet they (saved during tribulation who are alive in human bodies up to and including Rev. 14:14-20) will remain in human bodies to enter into the millennial kingdom.
They will be the ones bearing children and repopulating the earth.

We read in Rev. 20:2 that the devil is bound for the thousand year reign.
During those thousand years, those still in human bodies are having children, living incredibly long lifetimes, and at the end of this time there will amazingly be humans who once again rebel against God.
We read in Rev.20:3 and 20:7 That the devil is "loosed a little season" at the end of the thousand years.
The devil then "shall go out to deceive the nations" and there will be so many people and the earth will be so very populated by that time that it states "the number of whom is as the sand of the sea."

There has to be people in human form doing all this populating, and there has to be a large number of population by the end of the thousand years (in human bodies), and there has to be SIN going on in the world once again for a revolt like that to take place.

We know when we are raptured we get incorruptible bodies which cannot produce offspring, and we certainly wont be the ones doing any revolting against God at the end of the thousand year reign either.
Therefore, someone HAS to enter the millennial kingdom in human form, right?
I deduce it are those who have lived to the end of the tribulation (in human bodies), who have accepted Christ during the tribulation... they are those who will enter into the millennium in bodies which can reproduce.

So a few quick questions: #1 Do you and I agree we receive incorruptible bodies in the rapture? 
#2 Do we agree that our incorruptible bodies will not be sinful in nature?
#3 Do we agree that our incorruptible bodies will not be bearing children, nor procreating?
#2 Who is entering the millennium in human bodies capable of reproducing and repopulating the earth?


~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Next the WRATH...

In Revelation 5 we see Jesus Himself being the only one who is worthy to open the seals, correct?

Rev 5:2 "And I saw a strong angel proclaiming with a loud voice, Who is worthy to open the book, and to loose the seals thereof?"
Rev 5:8 "And when he had taken the book, the four beasts and four and twenty elders fell down before the Lamb, having every one of them harps, and golden vials full of odours, which are the prayers of saints."
    5:9 "And they sung a new song, saying, Thou art worthy to take the book, and to open the seals thereof: for thou wast slain, and hast redeemed us to God by thy blood out of every kindred, and tongue, and people, and nation;"

Would the wrath not start when Jesus Himself opens the seals of wrath?

In Revelation 6 we see Jesus Himself opening the seals. 
In Rev 6 we see only 6 of the 7 seals being opened (by Jesus Himself)
and in Rev 6:17 we read: "For the great day of his wrath is come; and who shall be able to stand?"

So according to the bible... wrath has come already and this statement is found the 6th and 7th seal.
There are yet 7 trumpet judments of wrath and 7 bowls of wrath yet to come...
Yet you contend you believe wrath doesn't occur until Rev 14?

Once again the bible itself states:

Revelation 6:15 "And the kings of the earth, and the great men, and the rich men, and the chief captains, and the mighty men, and every bondman, and every free man, hid themselves in the dens and in the rocks of the mountains;"
    16 "And said to the mountains and rocks, Fall on us, and hide us from the face of him that sitteth on the throne, and from the wrath of the Lamb:"
    17 "For the great day of his wrath is come; and who shall be able to stand?"
And as we read we see it is only between the FIRST set of 7 wrath judgments, between seal #6 and seal #7 that this statement is made.
How then, can wrath START in Revelation 14?


 

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3 hours ago, Ronda said:

 

Do you agree with this statement?  
There will be saved (those saved during the tribulation)  and unsaved people at the end of the tribulation ?

I believe Rev. 14:14-20 clearly shows the unsaved (at the end of the tribulation period) being gathered together and cast into the winepress of the great wrath of God.

I believe those saved (accepting Christ as savior) during the tribulation period, who survive until the end, will be those who enter into the millennial kingdom in human bodies. THEY will be the ones to repopulate the earth.
WE (saved during age of grace) will be given glorified/uncorruptible bodies during the rapture (which I believe precedes the 70th week of Daniel). Therefore, we will NOT be capable of repopulating the earth by bearing offspring.

Therefore... instead of "us" (saved during church age-age of grace) are not those to whom Jesus will be separating in Rev. 14:14, but will be those who are saved during the tribulation period/70th week of Daniel. I could accept that, in fact at one time I DID, except that, considering how clear this is of Jesus taking His people, (saved during the tribulation, as you suggest), where is the BIG ONE? The general rapture of the church? Why is the Bible silent on that one, yet so clear on this one? Besides, the Bible says there will only be two resurrections, one of the blessed, one of the damned, Yet your suggestion is TWO raptures/resurrections actually make one resurrection. I don't see it. And again, especially if we consider all this, if this WAS a second part of a single resurrection, I would think the Bible would show the first main resurrection even more clearly that the second one.


There is something I consider to be an important factor overlooked in the view you bring forth...
The view you state would (in essence) mean that Jesus grabs up all the believers (supposedly the church age believers as well as the tribulation-age believers) there in Rev. 14:14?
If so... you believe THAT is the rapture? And if so, then we know from 1 Cor. 15:51-53 we receive incorruptible/glorified bodies at the time of the rapture, right?
Then we have a problem...because inthe millennium there will be people in human bodies, bearing children, repopulating the earth. Where did the come from? They can't be those of us in glorified/incorruptible bodies.

Who do you believe bears the offspring shown in this verse below?
Isaiah 65:23 "They shall not labour in vain, nor bring forth for trouble; for they are the seed of the blessed of the Lord, and their offspring with them."

This verse (above) shows that SOMEONE will be having offspring, who could it be? I actually answered this in the previous reply. I will cut and paste it. "however I do know that those who will repopulate the earth will be the 'sheep' seen in Matt 25, from the judgment of the nations, or the sheep and the goats. Why do I believe that? because these people are not being brought into the kingdom because they are saved, but because of their works. because of how they treated the people of God during the tribulation time-and we don't believe in a works-based salvation. The people are the same as mentioned in Zechariah 14:16: "And it shall come to pass, that every one that is left of all the nations which came against Jerusalem shall even go up from year to year to worship the King, the LORD of hosts, and to keep the feast of tabernacles." These are who will populate the earth, those left from the nations that came against Jerusalem, that had pity on the people of God during the tribulation. They will receive, if you will, a second chance, still having to accept Jesus as Saviour.


Isaiah 65:20 "There shall be no more thence an infant of days, nor an old man that hath not filled his days: for the child shall die an hundred years old; but the sinner being an hundred years old shall be accursed."
 21 "And they shall build houses, and inhabit them; and they shall plant vineyards, and eat the fruit of them."

Again we see that these are people in human form (not glorified bodies) because a person will still be considered a "child" at the age of 100. We also see sinners there... who could those be?

We know it cannot be "us" (those saved during the age of grace) because we will be in glorified/incorruptible bodies as shown in 1 Cor. 15:51-53
51 "Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed,"
52 "In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed."
53 "For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality"

These incorruptible/glorified bodies we receive in the rapture will not be procreating and producing offspring:

Philippians 3:21 "Who shall change our vile body, that it may be fashioned like unto his glorious body, according to the working whereby he is able even to subdue all things unto himself."
1 John 3:2 "Beloved, now are we the sons of God, and it doth not yet appear what we shall be: but we know that, when he shall appear, we shall be like him; for we shall see him as he is."
Matthew 22:29 "Jesus answered and said unto them, Ye do err, not knowing the scriptures, nor the power of God."
 30 "For in the resurrection they neither marry, nor are given in marriage, but are as the angels of God in heaven."

So I conclude that we (saved during church age) must be taken prior to the event in Rev. 14:14-20
As we (saved during church age) will receive incorruptible bodies
Yet they (saved during tribulation who are alive in human bodies up to and including Rev. 14:14-20) will remain in human bodies to enter into the millennial kingdom.
They will be the ones bearing children and repopulating the earth. And if I am correct, when Jesus raptures His people, it will be all of them, from the churches, and those saved during the tribulation period, and those who remain from the nations that went against Israel who had pity on God's people, will people the earth. No second rapture or resurrection of the blessed, just as the Bible says.

We read in Rev. 20:2 that the devil is bound for the thousand year reign.
During those thousand years, those still in human bodies are having children, living incredibly long lifetimes, and at the end of this time there will amazingly be humans who once again rebel against God.
We read in Rev.20:3 and 20:7 That the devil is "loosed a little season" at the end of the thousand years.
The devil then "shall go out to deceive the nations" and there will be so many people and the earth will be so very populated by that time that it states "the number of whom is as the sand of the sea."

There has to be people in human form doing all this populating, and there has to be a large number of population by the end of the thousand years (in human bodies), and there has to be SIN going on in the world once again for a revolt like that to take place.

We know when we are raptured we get incorruptible bodies which cannot produce offspring, and we certainly wont be the ones doing any revolting against God at the end of the thousand year reign either.
Therefore, someone HAS to enter the millennial kingdom in human form, right?
I deduce it are those who have lived to the end of the tribulation (in human bodies), who have accepted Christ during the tribulation... they are those who will enter into the millennium in bodies which can reproduce.

So a few quick questions: #1 Do you and I agree we receive incorruptible bodies in the rapture? Yes
#2 Do we agree that our incorruptible bodies will not be sinful in nature? Yes
#3 Do we agree that our incorruptible bodies will not be bearing children, nor procreating? Yes, though the Bible doesn't actually say that. Adam and Eve were given to bear children even before they sinned, though we don't know that they did. But I do agree that this won't be part of what we do.
#2 Who is entering the millennium in human bodies capable of reproducing and repopulating the earth? "And it shall come to pass, that every one that is left of all the nations which came against Jerusalem shall even go up from year to year to worship the King, the LORD of hosts, and to keep the feast of tabernacles." Zech 14:16


~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Next the WRATH...

In Revelation 5 we see Jesus Himself being the only one who is worthy to open the seals, correct?

Rev 5:2 "And I saw a strong angel proclaiming with a loud voice, Who is worthy to open the book, and to loose the seals thereof?"
Rev 5:8 "And when he had taken the book, the four beasts and four and twenty elders fell down before the Lamb, having every one of them harps, and golden vials full of odours, which are the prayers of saints."
    5:9 "And they sung a new song, saying, Thou art worthy to take the book, and to open the seals thereof: for thou wast slain, and hast redeemed us to God by thy blood out of every kindred, and tongue, and people, and nation;"

Would the wrath not start when Jesus Himself opens the seals of wrath?

In Revelation 6 we see Jesus Himself opening the seals. 
In Rev 6 we see only 6 of the 7 seals being opened (by Jesus Himself)
and in Rev 6:17 we read: "For the great day of his wrath is come; and who shall be able to stand?"

So according to the bible... wrath has come already and this statement is found the 6th and 7th seal.
There are yet 7 trumpet judments of wrath and 7 bowls of wrath yet to come...
Yet you contend you believe wrath doesn't occur until Rev 14?

Once again the bible itself states:

Revelation 6:15 "And the kings of the earth, and the great men, and the rich men, and the chief captains, and the mighty men, and every bondman, and every free man, hid themselves in the dens and in the rocks of the mountains;"
    16 "And said to the mountains and rocks, Fall on us, and hide us from the face of him that sitteth on the throne, and from the wrath of the Lamb:"
    17 "For the great day of his wrath is come; and who shall be able to stand?"
And as we read we see it is only between the FIRST set of 7 wrath judgments, between seal #6 and seal #7 that this statement is made.
How then, can wrath START in Revelation 14?

Well, since we KNOW the wrath begins near the end of the tribulation, (And another angel came out of the temple which is in heaven, he also having a sharp sickle. And another angel came out from the altar, which had power over fire; and cried with a loud cry to him that had the sharp sickle, saying, Thrust in thy sharp sickle, and gather the clusters of the vine of the earth; for her grapes are fully ripe. And the angel thrust in his sickle into the earth, and gathered the vine of the earth, and cast it into the great winepress of the wrath of God. And the winepress was trodden without the city, and blood came out of the winepress, even unto the horse bridles, by the space of a thousand and six hundred furlongs.) So, what is goin on in Rev 6? Simply, Rev 6 seems to be a preview of the entirety of the tribulation, starting with the coming of the Antichrist, followed by war, famine and death. Fifth seal, the martyrs seen under the altar representation of those saints who die during the tribulation, and the sixth seal, the end of tribulation and beginning of wrath. Because let's face it, consider what happens here,  And I beheld when he had opened the sixth seal, and, lo, there was a great earthquake; and the sun became black as sackcloth of hair, and the moon became as blood; And the stars of heaven fell unto the earth, even as a fig tree casteth her untimely figs, when she is shaken of a mighty wind. And the heaven departed as a scroll when it is rolled together; and every mountain and island were moved out of their places.  And the kings of the earth, and the great men, and the rich men, and the chief captains, and the mighty men, and every bondman, and every free man, hid themselves in the dens and in the rocks of the mountains; And said to the mountains and rocks, Fall on us, and hide us from the face of him that sitteth on the throne, and from the wrath of the Lamb: For the great day of his wrath is come; and who shall be able to stand?" So here, in the very beginning, we see the moon becomes blood, stars falling, heavens departgin as a scroll, mountains and islands moved out of their place, as the wrath falls. So what is left for the rest of the tribulation? Also, notice in Rev11:18, right after the seventh trumpet sounds, we see "And the nations were angry, and thy wrath is come, and the time of the dead, that they should be judged, and that thou shouldest give reward unto thy servants the prophets, and to the saints, and them that fear thy name, small and great; and shouldest destroy them which destroy the earth." Notice, "And the nations were angry, and thy wrath IS COME." NOW is the time of God's wrath, AFTER the seventh trumpet, the last trumpet, just after Jesus comes for His people. And bear in mind, the next couple chapters are not in linear context, so the time line begins again in Ch. 14, when Jesus is seen on the cloud.


 

 

 

 

 

 

 

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17 hours ago, Ukulelemike said:

perhaps I need to fist be more specific: I believe in a post-tribulation/pre-wrath coming of Christ. I believe the day of wrath is a part of, but still somewhat distinct fro the rest of the great Tribulation. So the rapture will occur, then the wrath of God will fall, then Christ will return, with us along with Him.

So, as you contend... the judgments of wrath listed throughout Revelation 6-18 aren't really wrath until Rev. 14? And then we are raptured (supposedly) in Rev. 14 go up to be with the Lord and yo-yo right back down to come back with the Lord? 

It's no wonder post-tribbers are "stocking up" on supplies... if they believe they are going to be going through the tribulation, they will have to contend with all of the following (from the book of Revelation):
1. Inflation so high it will take an entire days' wages just to eat (6:6)
2. 1/4 of the entire world population killed (6:8)
3. huge earthquake (6:12)
4. stars falling to earth (6:13)
THIS is just the beginning! There is plenty more wrath to come, we've only got to the 6th seal being opened at this point and already mankind is hiding in dens and rocks of the mountains, begging the rocks and mountains to fall on them and hide them from the the face of God and to hide them from the wrath of the Lamb.(6:16)
Rev. 6:17 "For the great day of his wrath is come; and who shall be able to stand?"
(WHEW... I (personally) am thankful that Jesus has already delivered me from the wrath to come (1 Thes. 1:10)
Now onward we go into more wrath:
5. wind is kept from blowing on earth (7:1)
6. silence up in heaven for about 1/2 hour (8:1)... this one is very creepy to me, whatever is coming must be downright horrible if all of heaven is silent!
    Here come the trumpet judgments:
7. thunderings, lightnings, and another earthquake (8:5)
    note: I doubt the earthquakes referenced in Revelation will be anything like the ones we've seen in our days on earth. I think they are going to be mega-quakes that effect the entire world. We are told the tribulation will be a time far worse than anything we've ever seen before.
8. hail mingled with blood! (8:7)
9. 1/3 of all the trees are burned up (8:7)
10. 1/3 of all the green grass burned up (8:7)
11. something resembling a mountain burning with fire is cast into the sea (8:8)
12. 1/3 of the sea becomes blood (8:8)
13. 1/3 of all sea creatures die and 1/3 of ship destroyed (8:9)
14. a great burning star falls from heaven (8:10)
15. 1/3 of the rivers and 1/3 of fresh water made poisonous (8:10)
16. Many people die because of the poisonous water (8:11)
17. 1/3 part of the sun smitten (8:12)
18. 1/3 part of moon smitten also (8:12)
19. 1/3 part of stars darkened (8:12)
    Note: I kind of doubt mankind's "climate change" laws are going to help out in this situation.
    Can you even imagine... ask a meteorologist what kind of effects this would bring to the world...
    They've got one thing right... climate change is coming! But they won't be able to stop the wrath of God upon this earth!
20. WOE, WOE, WOE is pronounced by an angel upon the inhabiters of the earth because there are 3 more trumpets yet to sound! (8:12)

21. The bottomless pit is opened (9:2)
22. Locust beings with scorpion stinging qualities torment mankind for 5 months (9:3-5)
23. Mankind will be in such horrible agony that they will "desire to die, and death shall flee from them" (9:6)(WOE #1)
24. 1/3 more of mankind is slain by the 4 angels and by fire/smoke/brimstone (9:14-20)
25. Something so awful happens that John isn't even allowed to write down what the 7 thinders uttered. (10:1-4)
26. The 2 witnesses will be killed, lie in the street 3.5 days, the whole world will see this and actually rejoice over their dead bodies and sent gifts to each other. (11:3-10)
27. The 2 witnesses are resurrected, and RAPTURED up into heaven (11:11-12)
28. Lightnings, and voices, and thunderings, and an earthquake, and great hail" (11:19)
29. The devil himself is cast to earth, along with his demonic angels (12:7-9)
30. The antichrist, the false prophet,and the image of the beast are in full swing. Chopping off heads, making mankind take the mark of the beast. (rev 13)

I'm sure I left out a several things... but anyways... none of this is WRATH???????
Alrighty then, looks like a whole lot of wrath to me. 
This ALL happens before the Lord comes to stand on Zion and it all happens PRIOR to the sickle harvest. 
The whole period prior to that is filled with judgment and wrath. 

Rapture
"The big one" is in 1 cor 15, as well as Thes 4:
However, I do not see the "big one" in Rev 14:14... I do not see a rapture there at all... that would be adding to scripture. It does not state that the Lord gives them glorified bodies there at all in Rev 14:14

Zech 14:4 we read that Jesus comes to earth physically:
4 "And his feet shall stand in that day upon the mount of Olives, which is before Jerusalem on the east, and the mount of Olives shall cleave in the midst thereof toward the east and toward the west, and there shall be a very great valley; and half of the mountain shall remove toward the north, and half of it toward the south."

We read that those who have fought against Jerusalem will suffer a terrible fate:
12 And this shall be the plague wherewith the Lord will smite all the people that have fought against Jerusalem; Their flesh shall consume away while they stand upon their feet, and their eyes shall consume away in their holes, and their tongue shall consume away in their mouth.

It states "ALL" of the people who have fought against Jerusalem will suffer that fate.

when we get down to verse 16 we see that it is those who did NOT fight against Jerusalem (which would be those saved during the tribulation---- NOT those who came against Jerusalem during the tribulation, as they are the unsaved ones who have already been consumed in verse 12)
So who would that include? ALL of those saved during that period, (the 70th week of Daniel), those people alive and in human bodies would because ALL of the sinners/those who had not accepted Christ were already consumed in verse 12.

16 "And it shall come to pass, that every one that is left of all the nations which came against Jerusalem shall even go up from year to year to worship the King, the Lord of hosts, and to keep the feast of tabernacles. 

Those are the ones left alive at the end of the tribulation in human bodies (not glorified bodies as we/saved/previously raptured will already have). The ones who came against Jerusalem in the tribulation will already have been consumed (as Zech 14:12 shows), and they will not be entering into the millennial kingdom. 

So back to "wrath" ... even though it's not obvious to you that the wrath is clearly presented throughout Revelation in the 30 examples I gave above (and I'm sure there are MORE than 30, but if 30 isn't enough wrath to prove wrath... what would be?) there is no doubt in my mind that those events ARE wrath. Which makes me even the more thankful that I am not appointed to wrath.

Thank you for describing your position.  I'll attempt to leave it there. You hold your position and I hold my position. As clearly, they are 2 opposing positions. 

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Well Mike, you certainly are hard headed about it :) .

Some folks I have known held to some brainwashed post trib ideas but I have never ran across anyone who held to a mid trib idea. Admittedly anyone reasonable can see the similarities and possible confusion between the pre and mid ideas. However, as in several previous arguments about it, the main reason you stand alone on this mid trib idea is the thief in the night. Noone buys mid trib simply because of this and your previous arguments over who is caught unawares as being the lost are not indicated in Scripture. The Scripture clearly indicates the saved will be caught unawares.  How could this be with so many descriptions of the man of sin, the mark of the beast, persecution of believers, etc..Your idea certainly takes away any "unawares" and "thief in the night" mentions in Scripture.

When a Pre trib "expert" analyzes like you did, they cover all the ground as you but with a pre trib outcome. The only thing that is not a variable is the fact that when it occurs noone will be expecting it. Even the people who keep pushing silly dates will be just as surprised as the rest. This negates all these contingent speculations IMO.

What amazes me is that you keep insisting.

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Again, those items of wrath mentioned in Rev 6 are looking ahead to the coming wrath-they don't take place at the beginning, but at the end. The book of revelation cannot all be taken as linear, clearly, because if the things rev 6 mentions all took place at the start, there would be no earth left for God's wrath to fall upon, no way for people to live through the tribulation yet to come.

However, yes I believe that believers will live, (though many will die, particularly due to the wrath, not of God, but of the Antichrist and the dragon, Satan), through all the things mentioned. But remember that before much of this occurs, God places a seal on His people. Rev 9:4 "And it was commanded them that they should not hurt the grass of the earth, neither any green thing, neither any tree; but only those men which have not the seal of God in their foreheads." Now, who are those with the seal? Clearly, they are believers, because we have been sealed with the holy Spirit of promise (Eph 4:30). So many of the judgments that occur BEFORE the wrath of God falls, will not directly touch us.

And no, it is not evident to me that God's wrath is present through the entire thing, otherwise, if you are correct that the rapture occurs before the onset of the tribulation, then all those saved during the tribulation would be themselves subject to God's wrath, even though they are saved, so then God has lied to them. No, we are ALL saved before the wrath of God falls. The wrath is the great and terrible day of the Lord, after His people have all been removed. the rest is the great tribulation, the time of Jacob's trouble, but NOT God's wrath, because as is asked in rev 6, "...Who shall be able to stand?"

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9 minutes ago, wretched said:

Well Mike, you certainly are hard headed about it :) .

Some folks I have known held to some brainwashed post trib ideas but I have never ran across anyone who held to a mid trib idea. Admittedly anyone reasonable can see the similarities and possible confusion between the pre and mid ideas. However, as in several previous arguments about it, the main reason you stand alone on this mid trib idea is the thief in the night. Noone buys mid trib simply because of this and your previous arguments over who is caught unawares as being the lost are not indicated in Scripture. The Scripture clearly indicates the saved will be caught unawares.  How could this be with so many descriptions of the man of sin, the mark of the beast, persecution of believers, etc..Your idea certainly takes away any "unawares" and "thief in the night" mentions in Scripture.

When a Pre trib "expert" analyzes like you did, they cover all the ground as you but with a pre trib outcome. The only thing that is not a variable is the fact that when it occurs noone will be expecting it. Even the people who keep pushing silly dates will be just as surprised as the rest. This negates all these contingent speculations IMO.

What amazes me is that you keep insisting.

I am hard-headed, but I believe scripture is clearly on my side.

As I showed in 1Thes 5: "1 But of the times and the seasons, brethren, ye have no need that I write unto you. 2 For yourselves know perfectly that the day of the Lord so cometh as a thief in the night. 3 For when they shall say, Peace and safety; then sudden destruction cometh upon them, as travail upon a woman with child; and they shall not escape. 4 But ye, brethren, are not in darkness, that that day should overtake you as a thief." (1The 5:1-4Believers won't be caught completely unawares-we will see the times and seasons-we will see it coming, though certainly not the specific time, and certainly setting dates is stupid, but we are children of the light. Time and again we are encouraged to be aware, to be ready and prepared, to watch. We won't be overtaken in darkness as by a thief-it says so right in the verses I have given, so I'm not sure what the problem is, or why its so hard to understand.  In the story of the foolish and wise virgins, notice the problem with what happened: while they all expected the coming of the groom, they all fell asleep and weren't prepared. This assumes they COULD have remained awake, but chose not to. And I am afraid this will be the state of many when Christ comes-yet we are told we are not of darkness and shouldn't be overtaken by surprise as by a thief, because there are specific things to watch for. Again, not day and time, but times and season. It's right there in scripture. In fact, these verses in Matt concerning the virgins are written specifically to the Jews, not to the bride-THEY are the ones who will be taken unawares.

As for my position, I am not mid-tribulation, I am post-tribulation/pre-wrath, because I see in scripture a clear delineation between the end of tribulation and the beginning of wrath. And just before wrath falls, Jesus, on a cloud, reaps His harvest, then the wrath begins. Again, not sure how this is so hard to see as it spells it out so clearly. The only reason I believe it can't be seen is by going from my own past when I held to a pre-trib position: everything I read, I redefine according to that view, even when it didn't fit. Somehow, tribulation became ALL wrath, because that's the only way I could explain it. Jesus in the cloud, after the last trump, reaping His wheat, could NOT be a rapture because it HAD to take place before that, even though it is nowhere to be seen. Couldn't explain what it was, but it had to be either ignored as not important, or reinterpreted because it didn't fit the position. Somehow, 1The 4's description HAD to refer to a pre-trib timing, even though it is neither mentioned, nor implied, and that isn't even part of the context, because it HAD to fit to position.

But when I was finally convinced to study it out, to ignore my preconceived ideas, I had to admit that I was wrong-suddenly all those verses that didn't seem to fit the pre-trib position, suddenly fit in this. Please understand I am not trying to say that I am smarter or anything that anyone else, just saying how it happened with me. I didn't get brainwashed, I just stopped only listening and began to study for myself.  

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4 hours ago, Ukulelemike said:

I am hard-headed, but I believe scripture is clearly on my side.

As I showed in 1Thes 5: "1 But of the times and the seasons, brethren, ye have no need that I write unto you. 2 For yourselves know perfectly that the day of the Lord so cometh as a thief in the night. 3 For when they shall say, Peace and safety; then sudden destruction cometh upon them, as travail upon a woman with child; and they shall not escape. 4 But ye, brethren, are not in darkness, that that day should overtake you as a thief." (1The 5:1-4Believers won't be caught completely unawares-we will see the times and seasons-we will see it coming, though certainly not the specific time, and certainly setting dates is stupid, but we are children of the light. Time and again we are encouraged to be aware, to be ready and prepared, to watch. We won't be overtaken in darkness as by a thief-it says so right in the verses I have given, so I'm not sure what the problem is, or why its so hard to understand.  In the story of the foolish and wise virgins, notice the problem with what happened: while they all expected the coming of the groom, they all fell asleep and weren't prepared. This assumes they COULD have remained awake, but chose not to. And I am afraid this will be the state of many when Christ comes-yet we are told we are not of darkness and shouldn't be overtaken by surprise as by a thief, because there are specific things to watch for. Again, not day and time, but times and season. It's right there in scripture. In fact, these verses in Matt concerning the virgins are written specifically to the Jews, not to the bride-THEY are the ones who will be taken unawares.

As for my position, I am not mid-tribulation, I am post-tribulation/pre-wrath, because I see in scripture a clear delineation between the end of tribulation and the beginning of wrath. And just before wrath falls, Jesus, on a cloud, reaps His harvest, then the wrath begins. Again, not sure how this is so hard to see as it spells it out so clearly. The only reason I believe it can't be seen is by going from my own past when I held to a pre-trib position: everything I read, I redefine according to that view, even when it didn't fit. Somehow, tribulation became ALL wrath, because that's the only way I could explain it. Jesus in the cloud, after the last trump, reaping His wheat, could NOT be a rapture because it HAD to take place before that, even though it is nowhere to be seen. Couldn't explain what it was, but it had to be either ignored as not important, or reinterpreted because it didn't fit the position. Somehow, 1The 4's description HAD to refer to a pre-trib timing, even though it is neither mentioned, nor implied, and that isn't even part of the context, because it HAD to fit to position.

But when I was finally convinced to study it out, to ignore my preconceived ideas, I had to admit that I was wrong-suddenly all those verses that didn't seem to fit the pre-trib position, suddenly fit in this. Please understand I am not trying to say that I am smarter or anything that anyone else, just saying how it happened with me. I didn't get brainwashed, I just stopped only listening and began to study for myself.  

Ok Mike, but your argument even now does not negate the thief in the night referring to the regenerated in any way. I understand the difference between the trib and wrath you are making and this is what doubly reinforces the argument against it.

When I said brainwashed post trib, I was referring to the post 7 year great trib which includes the 3.5 mid point before the vials are opened.

But I reckon ain't nobody moving on it so it is what it is.

Edited by wretched

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1 hour ago, wretched said:

Ok Mike, but your argument even now does not negate the thief in the night referring to the regenerated in any way. I understand the difference between the trib and wrath you are making and this is what doubly reinforces the argument against it.

When I said brainwashed post trib, I was referring to the post 7 year great trib which includes the 3.5 mid point before the seals are opened.

But I reckon ain't nobody moving on it so it is what it is.

I dunno-when the Bible specifically refers to believer as not being overtaken as by a thief, it sort of negates being overtaken as a thief in my mind. But you're right, we will take what we want from it.

So, wait, if the seals aren't opened until after the mid-point of the 7 years, what's happening during the first half? Seems the very first thing that occurs when John arrives in heaven in his vision, is the presentation of the Lamb and the book, which he then proceeds to open. The seals preview the entire 7 years and the falling of the wrath.

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1 hour ago, Ukulelemike said:

I dunno-when the Bible specifically refers to believer as not being overtaken as by a thief, it sort of negates being overtaken as a thief in my mind. But you're right, we will take what we want from it.

So, wait, if the seals aren't opened until after the mid-point of the 7 years, what's happening during the first half? Seems the very first thing that occurs when John arrives in heaven in his vision, is the presentation of the Lamb and the book, which he then proceeds to open. The seals preview the entire 7 years and the falling of the wrath.

Yikes sorry Mike, not seals, vials.

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18 minutes ago, candlelight said:

Just a little slideshow on the "catching away" in the "twinkling of an eye"... A.K.A. "Rapture"

https://onedrive.live.com/view.aspx?resid=E4A3F033CAFA05CF!8228&ithint=file%2Cpptx&app=PowerPoint&authkey=!ADjRVPU1qjCFp4k

Okay, but can we please set this back on track? Nice presentation, though no sound.

You do bring out a point I had not made-if the rapture takes place just prior to the tribulation period, why is it that we don't see the bride and bridegroom brought together for the marriage supper of the Lamb until Ch 19? 

In scripture, in Revelation, we see, in Ch 14, as I have stated, the reaping of the earth's harvest by Jesus, then the gathering of the grapes of the earth, which are cast into the winepress of God's wrath.

Ch. 15, the seven angels bearing the seven last plagues, "for in them is filled up the wrath of God", and their preparation for pouring out this wrath.

Ch 16, the outpouring of the vials of wrath upon the earth and its inhabitants, (different from what had fallen before this, as, at that time, those judgments were not cast upon those who had been sealed by the Lord);

Ch 17: a view of the great whore and the kingdoms of the Antichrist, (parenthetical, not activites in the timeline);

Ch 18: the declaration of the judgment which had taken place with the outpouring of God's wrath in Ch 16;

THEN, in 19, the declaration of God's victory over the wicked in judgment, and the announcement of the marriage supper of the lamb, then immediately, Jesus' triumphant return to earth as King and Lord upon a white horse, followed by the armies of Heaven, to take the earth to reign therein.

So, if the rapture took place way back seven years earlier, why did it take seven years before the marriage supper? Why take so long to declare that the Bride hath made herself ready? When the groom comes to receive his bride, they go immediately to the supper, don't they?

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