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Movie: "God's Not Dead"


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Well Mike, you certainly are hard headed about it :) .

Some folks I have known held to some brainwashed post trib ideas but I have never ran across anyone who held to a mid trib idea. Admittedly anyone reasonable can see the similarities and possible confusion between the pre and mid ideas. However, as in several previous arguments about it, the main reason you stand alone on this mid trib idea is the thief in the night. Noone buys mid trib simply because of this and your previous arguments over who is caught unawares as being the lost are not indicated in Scripture. The Scripture clearly indicates the saved will be caught unawares.  How could this be with so many descriptions of the man of sin, the mark of the beast, persecution of believers, etc..Your idea certainly takes away any "unawares" and "thief in the night" mentions in Scripture.

When a Pre trib "expert" analyzes like you did, they cover all the ground as you but with a pre trib outcome. The only thing that is not a variable is the fact that when it occurs noone will be expecting it. Even the people who keep pushing silly dates will be just as surprised as the rest. This negates all these contingent speculations IMO.

What amazes me is that you keep insisting.

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Again, those items of wrath mentioned in Rev 6 are looking ahead to the coming wrath-they don't take place at the beginning, but at the end. The book of revelation cannot all be taken as linear, clearly, because if the things rev 6 mentions all took place at the start, there would be no earth left for God's wrath to fall upon, no way for people to live through the tribulation yet to come.

However, yes I believe that believers will live, (though many will die, particularly due to the wrath, not of God, but of the Antichrist and the dragon, Satan), through all the things mentioned. But remember that before much of this occurs, God places a seal on His people. Rev 9:4 "And it was commanded them that they should not hurt the grass of the earth, neither any green thing, neither any tree; but only those men which have not the seal of God in their foreheads." Now, who are those with the seal? Clearly, they are believers, because we have been sealed with the holy Spirit of promise (Eph 4:30). So many of the judgments that occur BEFORE the wrath of God falls, will not directly touch us.

And no, it is not evident to me that God's wrath is present through the entire thing, otherwise, if you are correct that the rapture occurs before the onset of the tribulation, then all those saved during the tribulation would be themselves subject to God's wrath, even though they are saved, so then God has lied to them. No, we are ALL saved before the wrath of God falls. The wrath is the great and terrible day of the Lord, after His people have all been removed. the rest is the great tribulation, the time of Jacob's trouble, but NOT God's wrath, because as is asked in rev 6, "...Who shall be able to stand?"

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9 minutes ago, wretched said:

Well Mike, you certainly are hard headed about it :) .

Some folks I have known held to some brainwashed post trib ideas but I have never ran across anyone who held to a mid trib idea. Admittedly anyone reasonable can see the similarities and possible confusion between the pre and mid ideas. However, as in several previous arguments about it, the main reason you stand alone on this mid trib idea is the thief in the night. Noone buys mid trib simply because of this and your previous arguments over who is caught unawares as being the lost are not indicated in Scripture. The Scripture clearly indicates the saved will be caught unawares.  How could this be with so many descriptions of the man of sin, the mark of the beast, persecution of believers, etc..Your idea certainly takes away any "unawares" and "thief in the night" mentions in Scripture.

When a Pre trib "expert" analyzes like you did, they cover all the ground as you but with a pre trib outcome. The only thing that is not a variable is the fact that when it occurs noone will be expecting it. Even the people who keep pushing silly dates will be just as surprised as the rest. This negates all these contingent speculations IMO.

What amazes me is that you keep insisting.

I am hard-headed, but I believe scripture is clearly on my side.

As I showed in 1Thes 5: "1 But of the times and the seasons, brethren, ye have no need that I write unto you. 2 For yourselves know perfectly that the day of the Lord so cometh as a thief in the night. 3 For when they shall say, Peace and safety; then sudden destruction cometh upon them, as travail upon a woman with child; and they shall not escape. 4 But ye, brethren, are not in darkness, that that day should overtake you as a thief." (1The 5:1-4Believers won't be caught completely unawares-we will see the times and seasons-we will see it coming, though certainly not the specific time, and certainly setting dates is stupid, but we are children of the light. Time and again we are encouraged to be aware, to be ready and prepared, to watch. We won't be overtaken in darkness as by a thief-it says so right in the verses I have given, so I'm not sure what the problem is, or why its so hard to understand.  In the story of the foolish and wise virgins, notice the problem with what happened: while they all expected the coming of the groom, they all fell asleep and weren't prepared. This assumes they COULD have remained awake, but chose not to. And I am afraid this will be the state of many when Christ comes-yet we are told we are not of darkness and shouldn't be overtaken by surprise as by a thief, because there are specific things to watch for. Again, not day and time, but times and season. It's right there in scripture. In fact, these verses in Matt concerning the virgins are written specifically to the Jews, not to the bride-THEY are the ones who will be taken unawares.

As for my position, I am not mid-tribulation, I am post-tribulation/pre-wrath, because I see in scripture a clear delineation between the end of tribulation and the beginning of wrath. And just before wrath falls, Jesus, on a cloud, reaps His harvest, then the wrath begins. Again, not sure how this is so hard to see as it spells it out so clearly. The only reason I believe it can't be seen is by going from my own past when I held to a pre-trib position: everything I read, I redefine according to that view, even when it didn't fit. Somehow, tribulation became ALL wrath, because that's the only way I could explain it. Jesus in the cloud, after the last trump, reaping His wheat, could NOT be a rapture because it HAD to take place before that, even though it is nowhere to be seen. Couldn't explain what it was, but it had to be either ignored as not important, or reinterpreted because it didn't fit the position. Somehow, 1The 4's description HAD to refer to a pre-trib timing, even though it is neither mentioned, nor implied, and that isn't even part of the context, because it HAD to fit to position.

But when I was finally convinced to study it out, to ignore my preconceived ideas, I had to admit that I was wrong-suddenly all those verses that didn't seem to fit the pre-trib position, suddenly fit in this. Please understand I am not trying to say that I am smarter or anything that anyone else, just saying how it happened with me. I didn't get brainwashed, I just stopped only listening and began to study for myself.  

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4 hours ago, Ukulelemike said:

I am hard-headed, but I believe scripture is clearly on my side.

As I showed in 1Thes 5: "1 But of the times and the seasons, brethren, ye have no need that I write unto you. 2 For yourselves know perfectly that the day of the Lord so cometh as a thief in the night. 3 For when they shall say, Peace and safety; then sudden destruction cometh upon them, as travail upon a woman with child; and they shall not escape. 4 But ye, brethren, are not in darkness, that that day should overtake you as a thief." (1The 5:1-4Believers won't be caught completely unawares-we will see the times and seasons-we will see it coming, though certainly not the specific time, and certainly setting dates is stupid, but we are children of the light. Time and again we are encouraged to be aware, to be ready and prepared, to watch. We won't be overtaken in darkness as by a thief-it says so right in the verses I have given, so I'm not sure what the problem is, or why its so hard to understand.  In the story of the foolish and wise virgins, notice the problem with what happened: while they all expected the coming of the groom, they all fell asleep and weren't prepared. This assumes they COULD have remained awake, but chose not to. And I am afraid this will be the state of many when Christ comes-yet we are told we are not of darkness and shouldn't be overtaken by surprise as by a thief, because there are specific things to watch for. Again, not day and time, but times and season. It's right there in scripture. In fact, these verses in Matt concerning the virgins are written specifically to the Jews, not to the bride-THEY are the ones who will be taken unawares.

As for my position, I am not mid-tribulation, I am post-tribulation/pre-wrath, because I see in scripture a clear delineation between the end of tribulation and the beginning of wrath. And just before wrath falls, Jesus, on a cloud, reaps His harvest, then the wrath begins. Again, not sure how this is so hard to see as it spells it out so clearly. The only reason I believe it can't be seen is by going from my own past when I held to a pre-trib position: everything I read, I redefine according to that view, even when it didn't fit. Somehow, tribulation became ALL wrath, because that's the only way I could explain it. Jesus in the cloud, after the last trump, reaping His wheat, could NOT be a rapture because it HAD to take place before that, even though it is nowhere to be seen. Couldn't explain what it was, but it had to be either ignored as not important, or reinterpreted because it didn't fit the position. Somehow, 1The 4's description HAD to refer to a pre-trib timing, even though it is neither mentioned, nor implied, and that isn't even part of the context, because it HAD to fit to position.

But when I was finally convinced to study it out, to ignore my preconceived ideas, I had to admit that I was wrong-suddenly all those verses that didn't seem to fit the pre-trib position, suddenly fit in this. Please understand I am not trying to say that I am smarter or anything that anyone else, just saying how it happened with me. I didn't get brainwashed, I just stopped only listening and began to study for myself.  

Ok Mike, but your argument even now does not negate the thief in the night referring to the regenerated in any way. I understand the difference between the trib and wrath you are making and this is what doubly reinforces the argument against it.

When I said brainwashed post trib, I was referring to the post 7 year great trib which includes the 3.5 mid point before the vials are opened.

But I reckon ain't nobody moving on it so it is what it is.

Edited by wretched
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1 hour ago, wretched said:

Ok Mike, but your argument even now does not negate the thief in the night referring to the regenerated in any way. I understand the difference between the trib and wrath you are making and this is what doubly reinforces the argument against it.

When I said brainwashed post trib, I was referring to the post 7 year great trib which includes the 3.5 mid point before the seals are opened.

But I reckon ain't nobody moving on it so it is what it is.

I dunno-when the Bible specifically refers to believer as not being overtaken as by a thief, it sort of negates being overtaken as a thief in my mind. But you're right, we will take what we want from it.

So, wait, if the seals aren't opened until after the mid-point of the 7 years, what's happening during the first half? Seems the very first thing that occurs when John arrives in heaven in his vision, is the presentation of the Lamb and the book, which he then proceeds to open. The seals preview the entire 7 years and the falling of the wrath.

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1 hour ago, Ukulelemike said:

I dunno-when the Bible specifically refers to believer as not being overtaken as by a thief, it sort of negates being overtaken as a thief in my mind. But you're right, we will take what we want from it.

So, wait, if the seals aren't opened until after the mid-point of the 7 years, what's happening during the first half? Seems the very first thing that occurs when John arrives in heaven in his vision, is the presentation of the Lamb and the book, which he then proceeds to open. The seals preview the entire 7 years and the falling of the wrath.

Yikes sorry Mike, not seals, vials.

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18 minutes ago, candlelight said:

Just a little slideshow on the "catching away" in the "twinkling of an eye"... A.K.A. "Rapture"

https://onedrive.live.com/view.aspx?resid=E4A3F033CAFA05CF!8228&ithint=file%2Cpptx&app=PowerPoint&authkey=!ADjRVPU1qjCFp4k

Okay, but can we please set this back on track? Nice presentation, though no sound.

You do bring out a point I had not made-if the rapture takes place just prior to the tribulation period, why is it that we don't see the bride and bridegroom brought together for the marriage supper of the Lamb until Ch 19? 

In scripture, in Revelation, we see, in Ch 14, as I have stated, the reaping of the earth's harvest by Jesus, then the gathering of the grapes of the earth, which are cast into the winepress of God's wrath.

Ch. 15, the seven angels bearing the seven last plagues, "for in them is filled up the wrath of God", and their preparation for pouring out this wrath.

Ch 16, the outpouring of the vials of wrath upon the earth and its inhabitants, (different from what had fallen before this, as, at that time, those judgments were not cast upon those who had been sealed by the Lord);

Ch 17: a view of the great whore and the kingdoms of the Antichrist, (parenthetical, not activites in the timeline);

Ch 18: the declaration of the judgment which had taken place with the outpouring of God's wrath in Ch 16;

THEN, in 19, the declaration of God's victory over the wicked in judgment, and the announcement of the marriage supper of the lamb, then immediately, Jesus' triumphant return to earth as King and Lord upon a white horse, followed by the armies of Heaven, to take the earth to reign therein.

So, if the rapture took place way back seven years earlier, why did it take seven years before the marriage supper? Why take so long to declare that the Bride hath made herself ready? When the groom comes to receive his bride, they go immediately to the supper, don't they?

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Easily answered...

 

The Bride was there, however the guests had not all arrived yet.  The 144,000 sealed Jews, the many killed because they refused to take the mark of the beast; these are all guests of the marriage supper and would die during the tribulation.

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This article by Dr. Renald E. Showers (Friends of Israel Gospel Ministry, Inc.)  is an excerpt from a chapter in his book "Maranatha Our Lord, Come!: A Definitive Study of the Rapture of the Church".  The name of the article is "Behold, The Bridegroom Comes!" - Jewish Marriage  Customs.

It defines how Jewish Marriage customs relate to the Pre-tribulation rapture "catching away" of the Church/Bride of Christ

Edited by LindaR
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6 hours ago, Ukulelemike said:

Okay, but can we please set this back on track? Nice presentation, though no sound.

You do bring out a point I had not made-if the rapture takes place just prior to the tribulation period, why is it that we don't see the bride and bridegroom brought together for the marriage supper of the Lamb until Ch 19? 

In scripture, in Revelation, we see, in Ch 14, as I have stated, the reaping of the earth's harvest by Jesus, then the gathering of the grapes of the earth, which are cast into the winepress of God's wrath.

Ch. 15, the seven angels bearing the seven last plagues, "for in them is filled up the wrath of God", and their preparation for pouring out this wrath.

Ch 16, the outpouring of the vials of wrath upon the earth and its inhabitants, (different from what had fallen before this, as, at that time, those judgments were not cast upon those who had been sealed by the Lord);

Ch 17: a view of the great whore and the kingdoms of the Antichrist, (parenthetical, not activites in the timeline);

Ch 18: the declaration of the judgment which had taken place with the outpouring of God's wrath in Ch 16;

THEN, in 19, the declaration of God's victory over the wicked in judgment, and the announcement of the marriage supper of the lamb, then immediately, Jesus' triumphant return to earth as King and Lord upon a white horse, followed by the armies of Heaven, to take the earth to reign therein.

So, if the rapture took place way back seven years earlier, why did it take seven years before the marriage supper? Why take so long to declare that the Bride hath made herself ready? When the groom comes to receive his bride, they go immediately to the supper, don't they?

Oh well, it was worth a shot.  Pictures and all in the slideshow.  Lol

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7 hours ago, Standing Firm In Christ said:
7 hours ago, Standing Firm In Christ said:

Easily answered...

 

The Bride was there, however the guests had not all arrived yet.  The 144,000 sealed Jews, the many killed because they refused to take the mark of the beast; these are all guests of the marriage supper and would die during the tribulation.

 

Actually, when the Groom went to retreive his bride, al the guests and servants were with him-the LAST thing the groom did was to retreive his bride. So really, it makes more sense for a post-trib/pre-wrath rapture. 

 

6 hours ago, LindaR said:

This article by Dr. Renald E. Showers (Friends of Israel Gospel Ministry, Inc.)  is an excerpt from a chapter in his book "Maranatha Our Lord, Come!: A Definitive Study of the Rapture of the Church".  The name of the article is "Behold, The Bridegroom Comes!" - Jewish Marriage  Customs.

It defines how Jewish Marriage customs relate to the Pre-tribulation rapture "catching away" of the Church/Bride of Christ

A quote from this article: "After the groom received his bride together with her female attendants, the enlarged wedding party would return from the bride's home to the groom's father's house.12 Upon arrival there the wedding party would find that the wedding guests had assembled already."

Notice, the guests were already assembled when the groom brought his bride to the marriage supper. So the bride was the LAST person to attend.

Thank you all for giving me more reasons to hold to a post-trib/pre-wrath rapture position. Keep em coming!

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