Law and Grace

[trapperhoney]

What are your thoughts on the statement, "Without the Law there could be no Grace."

[Ronda]

Romans 3:

¹⁹ Now we know that what things soever the law saith, it saith to them who are under the law: that every mouth may be stopped, and all the world may become guilty before God.

²⁰ Therefore by the deeds of the law there shall no flesh be justified in his sight: for by the law is the knowledge of sin.

²¹ But now the righteousness of God without the law is manifested, being witnessed by the law and the prophets;

²² Even the righteousness of God which is by faith of Jesus Christ unto all and upon all them that believe: for there is no difference:

²³ For all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God;

²⁴ Being justified freely by his grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus:

²⁵ Whom God hath set forth to be a propitiation through faith in his blood, to declare his righteousness for the remission of sins that are past, through the forbearance of God;

²⁶ To declare, I say, at this time his righteousness: that he might be just, and the justifier of him which believeth in Jesus.

²⁷ Where is boasting then? It is excluded. By what law? of works? Nay: but by the law of faith.

²⁸ Therefore we conclude that a man is justified by faith without the deeds of the law

So my answer is...by the law is the knowledge of sin (and God's laws are written on our hearts, we are without excuse). But Jesus justified us (saved/bride/church) by HIS grace through redemption in Himself... the perfect sinless sacrifice to pay for our sins (all who accept His gift). 

[Alan]

Galatians 3:24 comes to mind. "Wherefore the law was our schoolmaster to bring us unto Christ, that we might be justified by faith." The Law shows us the holiness and righteousness of God and our failure in every respect to live up to His holiness and righteousness. As we recognize our failure to live up to His standard of righteousness we see that the Lord Jesus is the only one who ever, and will ever, live in deed and heart, up to the righteousness of God. Therefore, in order to know Grace we need to know Law and in order to experience the Grace of God we need to experience (or know), the Law of God.

 

[LindaR]

 

The Relationship of the Christian to the Law and Grace

Before the Mosaic Law was instituted at Mt. Sinai, there were people who lived righteous lives in conformity to God's moral absolutes.

Abel - Hebrews 11:4

Enoch -  Genesis 5:22, 24; Hebrews 11:5

Noah - Genesis 6:9; Ezekiel 14:14, 20

Job - Job 1:8; 2:3; Ezekiel 14:14, 20

The fact that some people lived righteous lives in conformity to God's moral absolutes before the Mosaic Law was instituted indicates two things:

People can be related to the eternal, unchangeable, moral absolutes of God without being under the moral aspect of the Mosaic Law; and it is possible to be free from the moral aspect of the Mosaic Law without being lawless.

Prior to Mount Sinai, God administered His moral absolutes over all mankind in ways other than through the Mosaic Law.  From Mount Sinai to the cross of Jesus Christ, He administered His moral absolutes over Israel through the Mosaic Law.  Since the time of the cross, God has been administering His eternal absolutes over all of mankind in a way which is different from and superior to the Mosaic Law.  The moral absolutes have not changed, but the way of God's  administering those absolutes has changed.  For example, idolatry and adultery have been just as wrong in God's sight since the time of the cross as they were when the Mosaic Law was in effect, but since the cross, God has not required the death penalty for those sins (1 Corinthians 6:9-11) as He did when the Mosaic Law was in effect (Exodus 22:20; Leviticus 20:10).  The new, superior way of God's administering His moral absolutes is called grace.

Freedom from the moral aspect of the Mosaic Law does not involve freedom from the eternal, unchangeable moral absolutes of God.  It only involves freedom from one way of God's administering His absolutes--namely through the Mosaic Law.  If one is under God's grace, in administering His eternal, unchangeable, moral absolutes, one will not be lawless.

Although the Mosaic Law had three aspects (civil, ceremonial, and moral), it functioned as an indivisible unit.  Thus, to place oneself under one aspect of the Mosaic Law is to obligate oneself to be under the entire Law.  James declared "For whosoever shall keep the whole law, and yet offend in one point, he is guilty of all" (James 2:10).  James was asserting that the breaking of only one part of the Mosaic Law made a person guilty of breaking the entire Law.  The only way this could be true was if the Mosaic Law were an indivisible unit.

The fact that the Mosaic Law was indivisible by nature has a strong implication concerning the relationship of the Christian to the Mosaic Law.  The implication is that since the Mosaic Law as indivisible by nature, the Christian who places himself under its moral aspect obligates himself to keep every aspect of the Law (the civil, ceremonial and moral). (Galatians 3:10) 

Source: There Really Is A Difference: A Comparison of Covenant and Dispensational Theology by Renald E. Showers (excerpts from chapter 16, The Relationship of the Christian to Law and Grace, pg. 187-190)

Edited November 23, 2015 by LindaR

[Heir of Salvation]

On 11/22/2015, 7:05:48, trapperhoney said:

What are your thoughts on the statement, "Without the Law there could be no Grace."

It's true.

The "Law" is Universal and timeless and everyone ever created, Jew and Gentile alike has always been subject to it.

The MOSAIC law was unique to a certain group at a certain time period and for a specific purpose and it is instructive but irrelevant to all those who either:

1.) Predate it.....Abraham, Isaac, Jacob, Adam, Seth, Job, Noah etc....

2.) Postdate it............After the cross of Christ

3.) Are gentiles.

Romans 1-2 puts it in excellent perspective.

There is, and always has been, a Universally applicable "LAW" to which all men throughout all history are subject:

For the invisible things of him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even his eternal power and Godhead; so that they are without excuse:

Therefore thou art inexcusable, O man, whosoever thou art that judgest: for wherein thou judgest another, thou condemnest thyself; for thou that judgest doest the same things..............

And thinkest thou this, O man, that judgest them which do such things, and doest the same, that thou shalt escape the judgment of God?.............

Tribulation and anguish, upon every soul of man that doeth evil, of the Jew first, and also of the Gentile; .......

But glory, honour, and peace, to every man that worketh good, to the Jew first, and also to the Gentile:

The next verses are most instructive:

For when the Gentiles, which have not the law, do by nature the things contained in the law, these, having not the law, are a law unto themselves:

Which shew the work of the law written in their hearts, their conscience also bearing witness, and their thoughts the mean while accusing or else excusing one another;)

In the day when God shall judge the secrets of men by Jesus Christ according to my gospel.

EVERY MAN will be judged "according to his deeds"...........in that great and terrible day of the Lord. Every man is "under the law"....few are or ever were under the Mosaic law.  God's Universally applicable law is that under which every man will have been found wanting (the "moral" law if you will).

Every man will be found to have been guilty of breaking that law, but to some, God will have imputed righteousness where there was not righteousness except by the blood of Christ..............God will impute the righteousness of Christ upon the law-breaker (moral and Universal) instead of sin, but only through Christ.

Some, will have been forgiven, most will perish.

All who are condemned are condemned for having broken "the Law"...not the Mosaic Law...but "the Law".

Confusion sets in when people speak as though there are two types of persons....those subject to Mosaic law, and everyone else.

Everyone has always been subject to "The Law".

MOST have never been subject to the precepts of Moses.

One is Universal and timeless and is founded in God's nature.

The other is found in God's planned economy for a particular people in one era....it reflects the former...but is an imperfect image of it.............

All of it always pointed us to the cross and to grace.

 

 

 

Edited November 24, 2015 by Heir of Salvation

[Ukulelemike]

So why is everyone still hot to have the 10 commandments posted everywhere?

[trapperhoney]

31 minutes ago, Ukulelemike said:

So why is everyone still hot to have the 10 commandments posted everywhere?

I asked for people to please share their thoughts on the statement I provided ("Without the Law there could be no Grace."), I am not looking for a debate.  Please state your thoughts  on the above statement or kindly refrain from participating in this thread.  My goal is to get a variety of viewpoints then sit down with my husband and evaluate them with scripture to determine what our take on it will be.  You are more than welcome to start your own thread if you would like to explore your question further.  If I misunderstood your question, then I am sorry.

[Heir of Salvation]

1 hour ago, Ukulelemike said:

So why is everyone still hot to have the 10 commandments posted everywhere?

Because: 

"Thou shalt not steal"

"Thou shalt not commit adultery"

"Thou shalt not kill"

"Thou shalt not covet" 

"Honor thy father and thy mother"...(read respect your elders in pagan cultures here)

etc....

Imply a Universally understood moral requirement above and not subject to the whims and preferences of man.....

It says in no uncertain terms that there is a non-subjective and non-negotiable set of standards to which men must adhere, and men's laws are designed to reflect that non-negotiable standard.  It implies transcendent moral axioms which are non-negotiable.

 Also, it's the founding socio-religious moral exemplar which informed all of Western thought and shaped Western Civilization for the last 1,000 years.  It creates precedent.

That's why.

Edited November 24, 2015 by Heir of Salvation

[Genevanpreacher]

1 hour ago, trapperhoney said:

I asked for people to please share their thoughts on the statement I provided ("Without the Law there could be no Grace."), I am not looking for a debate.  Please state your thoughts  on the above statement or kindly refrain from participating in this thread.  My goal is to get a variety of viewpoints then sit down with my husband and evaluate them with scripture to determine what our take on it will be.  You are more than welcome to start your own thread if you would like to explore your question further.  If I misunderstood your question, then I am sorry.

You do see the word Moderator under his name?

He knows the rules.

And, I think it fits in here for discussion. But if another thread is started, maybe that won't bother you.

5 hours ago, Heir of Salvation said:

It's true.

The "Law" is Universal and timeless and everyone ever created, Jew and Gentile alike has always been subject to it.

The MOSAIC law was unique to a certain group at a certain time period and for a specific purpose and it is instructive but irrelevant to all those who either:

1.) Predate it.....Abraham, Isaac, Jacob, Adam, Seth, Job, Noah etc....

2.) Postdate it............After the cross of Christ

3.) Are gentiles.

Romans 1-2 puts it in excellent perspective.

There is, and always has been, a Universally applicable "LAW" to which all men throughout all history are subject:

For the invisible things of him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even his eternal power and Godhead; so that they are without excuse:

Therefore thou art inexcusable, O man, whosoever thou art that judgest: for wherein thou judgest another, thou condemnest thyself; for thou that judgest doest the same things..............

And thinkest thou this, O man, that judgest them which do such things, and doest the same, that thou shalt escape the judgment of God?.............

Tribulation and anguish, upon every soul of man that doeth evil, of the Jew first, and also of the Gentile; .......

But glory, honour, and peace, to every man that worketh good, to the Jew first, and also to the Gentile:

The next verses are most instructive:

For when the Gentiles, which have not the law, do by nature the things contained in the law, these, having not the law, are a law unto themselves:

Which shew the work of the law written in their hearts, their conscience also bearing witness, and their thoughts the mean while accusing or else excusing one another;)

In the day when God shall judge the secrets of men by Jesus Christ according to my gospel.

EVERY MAN will be judged "according to his deeds"...........in that great and terrible day of the Lord. Every man is "under the law"....few are or ever were under the Mosaic law.  God's Universally applicable law is that under which every man will have been found wanting (the "moral" law if you will).

Every man will be found to have been guilty of breaking that law, but to some, God will have imputed righteousness where there was not righteousness except by the blood of Christ..............God will impute the righteousness of Christ upon the law-breaker (moral and Universal) instead of sin, but only through Christ.

Some, will have been forgiven, most will perish.

All who are condemned are condemned for having broken "the Law"...not the Mosaic Law...but "the Law".

Confusion sets in when people speak as though there are two types of persons....those subject to Mosaic law, and everyone else.

Everyone has always been subject to "The Law".

MOST have never been subject to the precepts of Moses.

One is Universal and timeless and is founded in God's nature.

The other is found in God's planned economy for a particular people in one era....it reflects the former...but is an imperfect image of it.............

All of it always pointed us to the cross and to grace.

And since when is the Law GOD gave Moses [the so-called Mosaic law] different than your term - Law?

Are not God's law and God's law from Moses as messenger for God from the same God?

Yes.

[trapperhoney]

50 minutes ago, Genevanpreacher said:

You do see the word Moderator under his name?

He knows the rules.

And, I think it fits in here for discussion. But if another thread is started, maybe that won't bother you.

I would presume that having posed the question I am free to set my own guidelines, and I was simply trying to point out what those guidelines were.  To post on this thread one should address me and my question.  Everyone is entitled to their opinion, and that is what I am trying to get -- differences of opinions, which I will sort through for myself.  If anyone has thoughts, questions or issues with things someone else has said I would appreciate they start a new thread or contact them individually and not muddy my thread.  I feel that is only common courtesy, at least it is in my perception.

[Heir of Salvation]

2 hours ago, Genevanpreacher said:

And since when is the Law GOD gave Moses [the so-called Mosaic law] different than your term - Law?

Are not God's law and God's law from Moses as messenger for God from the same God?

Yes.

Umm....there's the Mosaic Law, and the Law which is in the heart of every man.

See, e.g. Romans 1-2.

are a law unto themselves:

Which shew the work of the law written in their hearts,

I thought I'd quoted this already.  Those are statements to Gentiles, people to whom Moses' Law did not apply.

It certainly wasn't the Mosaic Law that Cain broke when he slayed Abel was it?

How did Cain know it was wrong?  

Yes, Moses' Law was from the same God.......  But God has worked and revealed himself in different economies throughout history.  But God's moral precepts are eternal and unchanging.

It's the Law of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob.  It's the God of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob.  None of them were subject to Mosaic Law.

Prior to Sinai............MOSES wasn't subject to Mosaic Law.

But, they all knew sin when they see it, and every man still knows right from wrong, Jew and Gentile alike.

[Heir of Salvation]

7 minutes ago, Heir of Salvation said:

 

 

Edited November 25, 2015 by Heir of Salvation

[Genevanpreacher]

2 hours ago, Heir of Salvation said:

Umm....there's the Mosaic Law, and the Law which is in the heart of every man.

See, e.g. Romans 1-2.

are a law unto themselves:

Which shew the work of the law written in their hearts,

I thought I'd quoted this already.  Those are statements to Gentiles, people to whom Moses' Law did not apply.

It certainly wasn't the Mosaic Law that Cain broke when he slayed Abel was it?

How did Cain know it was wrong?  

Yes, Moses' Law was from the same God.......  But God has worked and revealed himself in different economies throughout history.  But God's moral precepts are eternal and unchanging.

It's the Law of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob.  It's the God of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob.  None of them were subject to Mosaic Law.

Prior to Sinai............MOSES wasn't subject to Mosaic Law.

But, they all knew sin when they see it, and every man still knows right from wrong, Jew and Gentile alike.

Don't you see it?

You answer my question everytime.

God's law, whether written on someones heart, or spoken to Moses, or preached by a man of God, is all one thing - God's law.

God's law = Moses law = God's Law.

It's all from God.

It had nothing to do with Moses or anyone else. Just God's very own laws.

[Heir of Salvation]

9 hours ago, Genevanpreacher said:

Don't you see it?

You answer my question everytime.

God's law, whether written on someones heart, or spoken to Moses, or preached by a man of God, is all one thing - God's law.

God's law = Moses law = God's Law.

It's all from God.

It had nothing to do with Moses or anyone else. Just God's very own laws.

Yes, I agree.  

That's been my point the entire time.  Maybe we're not understanding one another.   It seems to me, that that's exactly what I've been saying the whole time.  It looks like you're seeing disagreement where there is none.

[Genevanpreacher]

On 11/25/2015, 8:37:34, Heir of Salvation said:

Yes, I agree.  

That's been my point the entire time.  Maybe we're not understanding one another.   It seems to me, that that's exactly what I've been saying the whole time.  It looks like you're seeing disagreement where there is none.

Okeydokie!