Evolution Evangelism

[No Nicolaitans]

 

...black people bear the mark of Cain and are cursed...

L...O...L...!!!

Can't get over that...LOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOL!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Here's something else that might interest you...

 

[No Nicolaitans]

...black people bear the mark of Cain?

Maybe I'm crazy, but the mark that God put on Cain was to protect him so that others wouldn't kill him.

If black people bear the mark of Cain...well...that didn't work out too well for them down through history, so I guess God didn't keep up his end of the deal.

Black people bear the mark of Cain. LOLOLOLOL!!!

My word...there's all kinds, aren't there?

 

[JesusLivesInUs]

3 hours ago, DaveW said:

As mentioned else where, you quite obviously are simply accepting the testimony of "scientists" by faith, because you have used "scientific information" that is simply wrong.

I gave you some basic scientific argument which you countered by quoting " scientific" sources without giving credit or source, and in fact quoting science that was irrelevant to my arguments.

You wish to accept neither Bible (by your own claim in this thread), upon which the whole basis of Christianity is formed, nor science which is contrary to your position.

This shows me that you are determined to hold your position no matter what you are presented with.

Genetics in fact shows that there is no scientific genetic mechanism whereby indormation has or indeed can be added to DNA, and this is the ENTIRE basis for evolution. Genetics DOES NOT supoort evolution.

Geology cannot be observed according to mainstream science, because it happens too slow, but in fact there have been several cases where major geolical formations have been formed in days or weeks, under direct scientific observation, SCIENTIFICALLY PROVING that geology does not happen slowly, but quickly through catastophic events.

The "ancestors" in the fossil record do not show a genetic correlation with Homo-sapiens, only a "structural similarity", and in fact the lines of development shows in didferent species in schoolbooks etc have long ago been shown to be false - check out the development of the horse for instance, which testing has shown that the "line of development" is not smooth and ordely, but in fact totally out of order.

There is NO science that proves the earth is millions of years old.

There is NO science that proves genetic evolution.

There is NO science that shows ANY evolutionary progression in any "kind" (sorry to use a Biblical reference.... on a christian website....)

There is NO science that even allows the mechanisms of evolution to happen.

Evolution has never been observed, is not possible in the observable study of ANY scientific field, and is against the record of the Bible.

First of all, most people would consider such fundamental theories of Evolution to be sufficiently tested by empirical evidence to conclude that they are indeed facts. The IFB doctrine of belief in the Bible as the ultimate source of all information is flawed. The Bible does serve as a humanistic, moral guide, not a scientific guide. As a result of the massive amount of evidence for biological evolution accumulated over the last two centuries, we can definitely conclude that evolution has occurred and continues to occur.  All life forms, including humans, evolved from earlier species, and all still living species of organisms continue to evolve today.  They are not unchanging end-products. 

This is a tough pill to swallow for IFB folks, such as yourselves. For those who have difficulty in accepting evolution because of what they perceive as contradictions with their fundamental religious beliefs, it may be useful to distinguish the ultimate origin of life from its later evolution.  Many, if not most, biological scientists accept that primordial life on earth began as a result of chance natural occurrences 3.5-4 billion years ago.  However, it is not necessary to believe in that view in order to accept that living creatures evolved by natural means after the origin of the first life.  Charles Darwin modified his religious beliefs, as did many others, as a result of the discovery of convincing proof of evolution.  Darwin's religious faith was also severely challenged by the death of his 10 year old daughter Annie in 1851.  Apparently, he came to believe that his God created the order of the universe including the rules of nature that result in biological evolution.  His famous book, On the Origin of Species, was not a denial of his God's existence.  However, he did reject a literal interpretation of the Judeo-Christian Bible. His religious beliefs were probably very similar to those who advocate "theistic evolution" today. 

Now as far as evidence, we do have discovery of Lucy by Paleoobtologist Don Johansson. We also have Berkeley biochemists Allen Wilson and Marie King successfully show that humans share 99% of their DNA with Chimpanzees. And most recently the Human Genome Project mapped and sequenced. So, I cited my sources and there are many more to back that up. Where is your evidence? It's easy to say 'No evidence' or 'theory does not work'. Let's hear your evidence of proof that evolution is not real. My mind is wide open to you. 

God Bless

 

1974
Discovery of ‘Lucy’

Paleontologists Don Johanson (1943-) and colleagues find ‘Lucy’, an almost complete Australopithecine female at Hadar, Ethiopia. 

[No Nicolaitans]

21 minutes ago, JesusLivesInUs said:

This is a tough pill to swallow for IFB folks, such as yourselves...

My mind is wide open to you. 

Now see...you're exhibiting the same flawed premise of the people whom you "discovered" online that described IFBs. You read something that they wrote about "IFBs" and automatically attributed those beliefs to all "IFBs". In so doing, you have (in effect) shown that you aren't open to us. I found your "IFB discovery" quite humorous, but actually it's sad.

You fell for it...

...and countless others have fallen (or will fall) for it. If you're so quick to believe what you read about IFBs, then it doesn't surprise me that you have fallen for evolution. The truly sad part to me though is that you profess to believe in Christ, yet you attribute his Word to allegory?

I asked that if you...YOU...have proven evolution, then please let us know. I think that it's safe to say that those of us who are corresponding with you know about the things that you're citing from others. "Lucy" only proved evolution to people who wanted it to prove evolution. There is no proof of evolution, and it doesn't matter how much you want evolution to be true...there is no proof. There's a lot of fancy talk, a lot of slick-willying, and a lot of pats on the back from fellow evolutionists...but at the end of the day...it's all for naught, because there is no proof. All you have are fancy wishes that people come up with to explain things that they want explained in the way that they want them explained.

There is no pill for us "IFB folks" to swallow. So...until you can prove evolution from your own findings, please don't quote, cite, or post links to what others have said. Most of us have been around this block too many times already. We want your proof. You're the one who came to us telling us that we're wrong/flawed in our belief. Prove it. Prove it with your own findings from your own archaeological digs, your own lab results, and your own papers written in the Scientific Journal. Then show us where others have successfully reproduced your findings. Can you do that? And please don't try to turn this around again and ask us to prove that evolution isn't true...you came to us proclaiming that evolution is true; therefore, it's up to you to prove it.

Now...how about your testimony of salvation? You continue to find the time to respond in this thread, but you still haven't shared with us how you came to realize that you were a sinner in need of salvation. Here's the link to the section of the forum where you can tell us about yourself and share your testimony of salvation...

http://www.onlinebaptist.com/home/forum/10-introduce-yourself/

 

[DaveW]

41 minutes ago, JesusLivesInUs said:

First of all, most people would consider such fundamental theories of Evolution to be sufficiently tested by empirical evidence to conclude that they are indeed facts.(1) The IFB doctrine of belief in the Bible as the ultimate source of all information is flawed. The Bible does serve as a humanistic, moral guide, not a scientific guide. As a result of the massive amount of evidence for biological evolution accumulated over the last two centuries, we can definitely conclude that evolution has occurred and continues to occur.  All life forms, including humans, evolved from earlier species, and all still living species of organisms continue to evolve today.  They are not unchanging end-products. 

This is a tough pill to swallow for IFB folks, such as yourselves. For those who have difficulty in accepting evolution because of what they perceive as contradictions with their fundamental religious beliefs, it may be useful to distinguish the ultimate origin of life from its later evolution.  Many, if not most, biological scientists accept that primordial life on earth began as a result of chance natural occurrences 3.5-4 billion years ago.(2)  However, it is not necessary to believe in that view in order to accept that living creatures evolved by natural means after the origin of the first life.  Charles Darwin modified his religious beliefs, as did many others, as a result of the discovery of convincing proof of evolution.  Darwin's religious faith was also severely challenged by the death of his 10 year old daughter Annie in 1851.  Apparently, he came to believe that his God created the order of the universe including the rules of nature that result in biological evolution.  His famous book, On the Origin of Species, was not a denial of his God's existence.  However, he did reject a literal interpretation of the Judeo-Christian Bible. His religious beliefs were probably very similar to those who advocate "theistic evolution" today. 

Now as far as evidence, we do have discovery of Lucy by Paleoobtologist Don Johansson. We also have Berkeley biochemists Allen Wilson and Marie King successfully show that humans share 99% of their DNA with Chimpanzees.(3) And most recently the Human Genome Project mapped and sequenced. So, I cited my sources and there are many more to back that up. Where is your evidence? It's easy to say 'No evidence' or 'theory does not work'. Let's hear your evidence of proof that evolution is not real. My mind is wide open to you. 

God Bless

 

1974
Discovery of ‘Lucy’

Paleontologists Don Johanson (1943-) and colleagues find ‘Lucy’, an almost complete Australopithecine female at Hadar, Ethiopia. 

(1) There was a time that MOST people thought there only around 1000 stars in the sky. They were not right. Simply because many people believe it, does not make it right. Even so, this statement is pure fantasy. There are many many people throughout the world who for many different reasons do not believe in evolution. And many of those who do, have NEVER investigated the facts, but accept what they are told purely by FAITH IN THE SCIENTISTS.

I have done a great deal of research, and I can tell you that all scientific laws known go against the theory of evolution. Things do not gain complexity but lose it. They only gain complexity if information is added.

The "massive amount of evidence" is primarily made up of stories imagined by evolutionary scientists. There are no indisputable missing links - what we have in the fossil record are are fully formed creatures, not intermediate forms. the missing links are...... well still missing.

(2) I personally know of scientists working the biological sciences who ABSOLUTELY DO NOT accept this premise. There are a great number of respected scientists who believe in six day literal creation. Darwin's own beliefs are basically irrelevant to the discussion now - science has grown and moved on since then - but still, the transitional forms that Darwin admitted were not present, but in his opinion would surely be found, still have not been found.

What is difficult to swallow is on your side of the argument. The Bible says all kinds were made by God. Science says all kinds changed over time. What do we see? NO ONE has ever observed evolution in process, and they say that is because it takes too long.

That is convenient for the argument, but the plain fact is that true science is based on OBSERVABLE, REPEATABLE experiments.

What do the evolutionary biologists base their "evidence" on - bones, if they are lucky, fossilised bone impressions if they are not, and LOTS OF GUESSWORK. NOT on anything observable, not on anything repeatable.

This is not science, nor is it foolproof "evidence".

If you find a bottle buried in a dirt pile that has a coke label still attached, you could GUESS that at some time it had been filled with Coke, but you could not say WITHOUT DOUBT it was once filled with Coke. It would be a reasonable guess, but not a certainty. It is possible that the particular bottle was taken off the assembly line BEFORE any coke was added to the bottle. It is possible that someone added the label to a bottle that was never intended to have coke in it.

The situation with fossils is exactly the same. They do not come with labels on them that state all the details. They have to figure it out from the rocks it is found in, the other fossils in the area, (whether from the same creature or other creatures), from the environment of the area (if that is known from the era - which again is full of assumption), from comparison to the previous "bones" of that form that have been found, and any number of other assumptions required.

The ACTUAL facts of the matter is that while some accept it without question (or investigation) - like you do - the presented "facts" are not facts at all, but ideas based hugely on assumptions.

The observable and repeatable science we can perform today aligns not with evolution, but with the Biblical principle of kinds being kinds, and remaining kinds.

 

(3) Well considering that it varies by as much as 12% in the difference between humans and chimps (some quote as little as 88%, while others quote varying figures between the two, with the seeming majority resting close to about 96%, we really must say that genetic variability is hardly a precise science. If this cannot come to an agreement on the baseline figure, then we really must assume that there is doubt on the figures in general.

Secondly, the DIFFERENCES are far more important that the similarities. This can be easily displayed by recognising that humans have greater than 50% genetic similarity to bananas.

But I can be pretty sure that you would not say that makes us bananas.....

 

Lucy?

 

These are the bones they found and made up "Lucy" from.

 

This is the first image that came up when I searched lucy

One piece of jawbone, five skull fragments, yet they know the entire shape, the brow structure, the face structure, and how much and what form of hair she had?

You see, a made up story with images produced to make it seem plausible.

 

For more such evidence we need only look at Pitdown man, which was an absolute deliberate hoax by evolutionists, and Nebraska man which was a "mistake".

Let's look at the "mistake" of Nebraska Man.

This is how Nebraska man was presented to the public:

Do you what the TOTAL evidence upon which this presentation was based?

The finding of a SINGLE TOOTH!

From this they constructed an entire STORY which was then presented as SCIENTIFIC FACT to the world.

The real truth of this tooth? It was not only not from a new species of "intermediate between ape and man", but it was in fact the tooth from a species of PIG!!!!!!!!

 

Who and what is Lucy? A collection of fossilised bone imprints, most likely from a single skeleton, of a creature that has similarities to primates, and to man.

Look at the "bones" they found.

Look at the picture they "made up".

How can they possibly know the relationship of the jawbone to the shape of the skull, to give Lucy a protruding mouth like an ape?

Go and find the other pictures they have made of "Lucy" and you find things such as long, primate like fingers. look at the picture containing the actual "bones" they found - there are no hand or finger "bones" found - they are guessing, and they are guessing long ape-like fingers and hands because IT SUITS THEIR ARGUMENT..

Just like it suited their argument to present Nebraska man in that way, even though they had basically NO EVIDENCE pointing to it.

 

I have done much investigation, both of the bible and of the available science.

I have done much investigation of the many assumptions involved in "scientific dating".

Are you aware that there is NOT ONE INDEPENDENTLY VERIFIABLE form of dating that shows dates of more than about 5000 years.

ALL dating methods that give ages greater than that, are verified by other unverifiable methods.

Even within methods, the results can vary wildly. The same pieces can be dated even in the same facility and by the same method and the results are often different, with the facility arbitrarily dismissing the results that do not conform with what is expected. Not for any good reason, but simply because it did fit with what they expected.

 C14 dating has dated live snails at thousands of years old.......... LIVE SNAILS......

Diamonds have been dated and found to contain C14....... Which should be an impossibility due to the short half life of C14. Yet it is there......

 

What they do is they date the rocks by the fossils found in them, and date the fossils by the rocks they are found in.

Circular proof. The problem with this is, if one of them is wrong, then both of them are wrong.

No matter the dating method used, they ignore any facts to the contrary, use HUGE and often unjustifiable assumptions, and reject any results that don't fit.

 

As I mentioned already, Mt St Helens has geological structures which "traditional geology" would date to millions of years old, but which were actually OBSERVED in their formation.

You remember science? That thing which is based in observable and repeatable experimentation?

But they reject that event as the aberration in "Normal" formation simply because it doesn't fit with what they want to believe.

They watched it happen.

They can see the results.

They can check the structures.

But they reject it as the normal way and instead hold onto something that they cannot observe, have never observed, and have no genuine scientific proof for.

But check the Bible whenever it talks about science and it is right. Every time.

In what we can check, the Bible is 100% accurate.

I will take a witness who is right when tested over a witness who is often wrong.

 

 

 

 

[DaveW]

2 hours ago, JesusLivesInUs said:

First of all, most people would consider such fundamental theories of Evolution to be sufficiently tested by empirical evidence to conclude that they are indeed facts. The IFB doctrine of belief in the Bible as the ultimate source of all information is flawed. The Bible does serve as a humanistic, moral guide, not a scientific guide. As a result of the massive amount of evidence for biological evolution accumulated over the last two centuries, we can definitely conclude that evolution has occurred and continues to occur.  All life forms, including humans, evolved from earlier species, and all still living species of organisms continue to evolve today.  They are not unchanging end-products. 

This is a tough pill to swallow for IFB folks, such as yourselves. For those who have difficulty in accepting evolution because of what they perceive as contradictions with their fundamental religious beliefs, it may be useful to distinguish the ultimate origin of life from its later evolution.  Many, if not most, biological scientists accept that primordial life on earth began as a result of chance natural occurrences 3.5-4 billion years ago.  However, it is not necessary to believe in that view in order to accept that living creatures evolved by natural means after the origin of the first life.  Charles Darwin modified his religious beliefs, as did many others, as a result of the discovery of convincing proof of evolution.  Darwin's religious faith was also severely challenged by the death of his 10 year old daughter Annie in 1851.  Apparently, he came to believe that his God created the order of the universe including the rules of nature that result in biological evolution.  His famous book, On the Origin of Species, was not a denial of his God's existence.  However, he did reject a literal interpretation of the Judeo-Christian Bible. His religious beliefs were probably very similar to those who advocate "theistic evolution" today. 

Now as far as evidence, we do have discovery of Lucy by Paleoobtologist Don Johansson. We also have Berkeley biochemists Allen Wilson and Marie King successfully show that humans share 99% of their DNA with Chimpanzees. And most recently the Human Genome Project mapped and sequenced. So, I cited my sources and there are many more to back that up. Where is your evidence? It's easy to say 'No evidence' or 'theory does not work'. Let's hear your evidence of proof that evolution is not real. My mind is wide open to you. 

God Bless

 

1974
Discovery of ‘Lucy’

Paleontologists Don Johanson (1943-) and colleagues find ‘Lucy’, an almost complete Australopithecine female at Hadar, Ethiopia. 

It would probably take less time to post your salvation testimony in the intro section than to reply here - why don't you do that first? 

I think most people are far more interested in your salvation testimony than in this argument.

It is, after all, a far more important subject than arguing about this stuff.

[Pastorj]

Jesuslivesinus - As shared before, the individuals on this board reject evolution and hold to a Biblical basis of creation found in Genesis Chapters 1-2. God spoke everything into existence in 6 literal days. We are happy to engage you in a discussion from Scripture, but if you want to attack Independent Baptists, I would suggest finding another place to discuss evolution.

[JesusLivesInUs]

1 hour ago, Pastorj said:

Jesuslivesinus - As shared before, the individuals on this board reject evolution and hold to a Biblical basis of creation found in Genesis Chapters 1-2. God spoke everything into existence in 6 literal days. We are happy to engage you in a discussion from Scripture, but if you want to attack Independent Baptists, I would suggest finding another place to discuss evolution.

Pastorj, absolutely not my intent to offend your group, but rather to understand your thoughts on these topics. We are all brothers in the belief in Christ. I do wish you all the blessings to you and your family in this holy season. 

In the end of all this discussion, it will most certainly all be sorted out when we are in the presence of our Lord. 

Take care, my brothers!

[Jim_Alaska]

In other words; No Testimony.

[DaveW]

5 hours ago, JesusLivesInUs said:

Pastorj, absolutely not my intent to offend your group, but rather to understand your thoughts on these topics. We are all brothers in the belief in Christ. I do wish you all the blessings to you and your family in this holy season. 

In the end of all this discussion, it will most certainly all be sorted out when we are in the presence of our Lord. 

Take care, my brothers!

How about thst testimony of salvation?

Intro section is easy to find, and it doesn't have to be a 3000 word essay.......

I would be more interested to read that than continue this discussion.

[DaveW]

21 hours ago, JesusLivesInUs said:

Pastorj, absolutely not my intent to offend your group, but rather to understand your thoughts on these topics. We are all brothers in the belief in Christ. I do wish you all the blessings to you and your family in this holy season. 

In the end of all this discussion, it will most certainly all be sorted out when we are in the presence of our Lord. 

Take care, my brothers!

Heya - I noticed you were back on in the last hour...

Any chance of that salvation testimony?

Or a little bit about yourself?

You are not IFB by your earlier statements, so what are you? Who are you associated with?

What sort of church do you go to?

You know, just general info - not addresses and stuff, but a little bit to get know you and where you are coming from?

The intro section is waiting for you....

It is calling out for you....

If you listen carefully, you can just hear it through all the chatter..... "Jesuslivesinus - come over here and write in me!!!" (Voice of intro section calling to you).

[*Light*]

If I am correct, Charles Darwin had a problem with the human eye with regards to evolution. How did evolution know to have a human eye that can see? Did it just form itself because the eye needed to see? Did the collocation of atoms during the evolutionary process just form an eye KNOWING that it needed to have eyes to see?

[JesusLivesInUs]

On 12/1/2017 at 7:38 AM, DaveW said:

Heya - I noticed you were back on in the last hour...

Any chance of that salvation testimony?

Or a little bit about yourself?

You are not IFB by your earlier statements, so what are you? Who are you associated with?

What sort of church do you go to?

You know, just general info - not addresses and stuff, but a little bit to get know you and where you are coming from?

The intro section is waiting for you....

It is calling out for you....

If you listen carefully, you can just hear it through all the chatter..... "Jesuslivesinus - come over here and write in me!!!" (Voice of intro section calling to you).

Sharing our salvation testimony will not help us gain true understanding of our Lord. The only purpose it would serve is to aid in the defilement and descrimination. In other words, our spiritual journeys are our own and between ourselves and God. We should keep our pride in check and never put ourselves over another person. 

God Bless!

Ephesians 4:13 

'until we all attain to the unity of the faith, and of the knowledge of the Son of God, to a mature man, to the measure of the stature which belongs to the fullness of Christ.'

 

[JesusLivesInUs]

21 hours ago, (Omega) said:

If I am correct, Charles Darwin had a problem with the human eye with regards to evolution. How did evolution know to have a human eye that can see? Did it just form itself because the eye needed to see? Did the collocation of atoms during the evolutionary process just form an eye KNOWING that it needed to have eyes to see?

Through God's creation of everything, from the quantum to the macro sized universe, he allowed for this universe to have life. It started with a complex set of chemicals and a process called Abiogenesis which is the creation of inanimate matter into life. Later, these single cell life that slowly developed over time developed the ability for biogenesis which is when life creates itself. That single cell organism had a very specific environment that it lived in. It's basic needs were to feed and multiply. To survive, life sometimes takes genetic mutations to allow greater probability of survival in the cells/ simple life forms environment. So, by this long term process of evolution, the gift of sight was added, and many thousands of years these creatures were many thousand celled complex creatures that many other abilities that would allow it to eat/ procreate more efficiently. Then the life in the oceans took another literal step to the land and over millions of years of change, became all the animals that Noah collected on his Ark, including a very special animal called human. This is the most important part! Our history of our origin does not lessen our significance or our belief in our God. It makes it more Devine. It provides truth. It allows us to see our humble beginnings as equals to all creatures of our God. You may scoff at this. You will most certainly come back with harsh thoughts and words. But deep down, you know this to be true. 

God Bless! 

[Jim_Alaska]

 

45 minutes ago, JesusLivesInUs said:

Sharing our salvation testimony will not help us gain true understanding of our Lord. The only purpose it would serve is to aid in the defilement and descrimination. In other words, our spiritual journeys are our own and between ourselves and God. We should keep our pride in check and never put ourselves over another person. 

God Bless!

Ephesians 4:13 

'until we all attain to the unity of the faith, and of the knowledge of the Son of God, to a mature man, to the measure of the stature which belongs to the fullness of Christ.'

 

 Psm 107:2    Let the redeemed of the LORD say so, whom he hath redeemed from the hand of the enemy;