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3 hours ago, Ukulelemike said:

As for the mystery of how God can be sovereign, and man responsible, this has never been a stretch for me: If God is sovereign, which He surely is, then is does not that sovereignty expand to ALLOWING man, IN His  sovereignty, the ability and responsibility to make a choice to follow or reject? Apparently, even the angels have some amount of free will is a third of them followed Lucifer in his rebellion, surely an act of free will-else God willed evil, willed rebellion against Himself, willed that man would fall to sin, etc...See the mess we get without free will?

Regarding God's sovereignty and man's responsibility, what I've always considered a philosophical puzzle is the nature of choices. Part of the explanation for choices is free will: no choice, no free will. If I pushed you off a cliff, we could easily explain why you went over. But if you jumped, we might ask why you jumped, and the answer could not be 'free will', because free will only explains the existence of a choice, not why a particular option is chosen.

Why do we make the choices we do? Do we make them because of our wills and desires? If so, where do those wills and desires come from? Do they come from our characters and constitutions? If so, where do those characters/constitutions come from? If we are created beings, does that mean our characters are created? And if our characters are created, does the creator decide what kinds of characters we have? And if the creator decides, and the creator has foreknowledge of exactly what we'll do with our lives if given a certain character, isn't it ultimately the creator who consciously determines our choices by determining our characters?

To me, the big question that Calvinism attempts to answer that other systems don't is why people make the choices they do. Calvinism's answer is that it is God who determines our choices. I think this is wrong, but I admit I don't have an explanation.

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4 hours ago, Invicta said:

Of course God allowed Free Will.  He gave Adam Free Will and he used it to sin.  On the day that Adam sinned, he died, He begat sons in his own image,  Since then his descendants have been born dead and dead men don't have free will.  Consider the following verses.

John 6:37  All that the Father giveth me shall come to me; and him that cometh to me I will in no wise cast out.
38  For I came down from heaven, not to do mine own will, but the will of him that sent me.
39  And this is the Father’s will which hath sent me, that of all which he hath given me I should lose nothing, but should raise it up again at the last day.
40  And this is the will of him that sent me, that every one which seeth the Son, and believeth on him, may have everlasting life: and I will raise him up at the last day.41  The Jews then murmured at him, because he said, I am the bread which came down from heaven.
42  And they said, Is not this Jesus, the son of Joseph, whose father and mother we know? how is it then that he saith, I came down from heaven?
43  Jesus therefore answered and said unto them, Murmur not among yourselves.
44  No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him: and I will raise him up at the last day.


Q. Who will He raise on the Last Day?  A Those who the Father gave him.

Q.  Who can come to Jesus? A.  Only those who the father draws to him.

6:65  And he said, Therefore said I unto you, that no man can come unto me, except it were given unto him of my Father.
66  From that time many of his disciples went back, and walked no more with him.
67  Then said Jesus unto the twelve, Will ye also go away?
68  Then Simon Peter answered him, Lord, to whom shall we go? thou hast the words of eternal life.

As you can see from verse 26, that teaching was not popular with many of His disciples, any more than it is with many of his disciples today.  Can you walk with Him and yet reject His teaching?

 

 

 

Good verses, however you are making a philosophical leap here. It is true that only those the Father has given to Jesus will come to Him. However, that doesn't discount that ALL are drawn and ALL are lightened by Christ, thus ALL have an opportunity to come. But, the Lord knows from the beginning who WILL, and as such, they are them which the Father giveth to the Son.  We are ALL given of the Father, but some choose not to answer.  Jesus died for the sin of the WORLD-that's the same world that the Father so loved that He gave His only begotten Son for. The world is the lost system-that incorporates everyone. That they are dead in sin does not take away the ability to choose to follow or not, nor does the Bible say as much-it is an assumption, a leap that is not in scripture; dead just means without Christ. Every single person on earth who is not born again is dead, and they make choices every day, some even to follow Christ unto eternal life.

"Now is the judgment of this world: now shall the prince of this world be cast out. And I, if I be lifted up from the earth, will draw all men unto me."

By the way, they didn't leave Christ because He said the Father would draw them, they left because of misunderstanding His doctrine on the His being the Bread of life, and their need to eat His flesh and drink His blood. That's why they left.

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On 11/19/2015, 1:23:22, Alan said:

That is correct. Part of the doctrine of election and predestination, is that after salvation, every saint is predestioned, "... to be conformed to the image of his Son..." Unffortunately, you may not understand that Paul is directly talking to, and about, the saints.

Let us take a closer look at the context.

The whole context of Romans 8:1-39 is only applicable to someone who is saved, redeemed, has the Spirit, is a brother, and is called a saint. To say paul is saying nothing about salvation is not correct. Verse 9, "But ye are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, if so be that the Spirit of God dwell in you. Now if any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his."

Let us start from verse 27, "And he that searcheth the hearts knoweth what is the mind of the Spirit [only the saints have the Spirit] because he maketh intercession to the will of God. And we know that all things work together for good to them that love God [only a saint can love God], to them who are the called [the saved, the redeemed] according to his purpose. For whom he did foreknow, he also [also: in addition too after salvation: after being redeemed; after the Spirit enters the saint] did predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren." Please also take careful note Paul stated, "among the brethren."

"Also" is the key word. After salvation, also, in addition to, the saint is predestined to "be conformed to the image of his Son," and the other gifts of salvation from verse 30-39

From verse 30 to 39 there are other blessings every saint has after salvation.

I hope the above study helped.

Alan

The passage does seem to suggest that only the predestined are called. To me this is the most difficult thing in the passage. Yet Paul says somewhere else that Christ "is the Savior of all men" indicating everyone has a chance. So, even though there's only an elect who are predestined there's seem to be a chance for everyone to be part of that elect. It's not a locked out predestination that most would never have a chance to be part of.  A man can make himself part of that predestination if he simply believes on Christ.

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Predestination is about two things:

 

1)  God has pre-set His system of churches for believers to join after they are saved.. (and after baptism).  These churches also have a pre-set destiny in the church age

2) God has pre-set the place of heaven for anyone who entrusts their salvation with Jesus... anyone who receives Him as their Saviour.

This is what pre-destination is about.  It isn't about God pre-setting those who will believe and those who don't.  Or pre-setting some to heaven and some to hell.. regardless of what they do with their will.

pre-destination in Ephesians is about the local New Testament assembly.

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23 hours ago, Invicta said:

I don't think so.  

Eph 1:4  According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love:

Before the foundation of the world, not after we were saved.
 

May I remind you that due to the foreknowledge of God He knew who would be saved and when. So, we, the saved, were chosen before the foundation of the world.

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16 hours ago, Alan said:

May I remind you that due to the foreknowledge of God He knew who would be saved and when. So, we, the saved, were chosen before the foundation of the world.

To solidify this thought, bear in mind the Bible says that we are ALREADY seated in heavenly places in Jesus Christ:

But God, who is rich in mercy, for his great love wherewith he loved us, Even when we were dead in sins, hath quickened us together with Christ, (by grace ye are saved;) And hath raised us up together, and made us sit together in heavenly places in Christ Jesus:That in the ages to come he might shew the exceeding riches of his grace in his kindness toward us through Christ Jesus." (Eph 2:4-7). These verses show things from God's perspective, that we who have been saved have already been seated in heavenly places-to God it is already a done deal, though we may be here on earth still in the flesh. God's perspective on things is always from the eternal, from the beginning to the end, there is not difference to God.  

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On 22/11/2015, 00:59:47, 360watt said:

Predestination is about two things:

 

1)  God has pre-set His system of churches for believers to join after they are saved.. (and after baptism).  These churches also have a pre-set destiny in the church age

2) God has pre-set the place of heaven for anyone who entrusts their salvation with Jesus... anyone who receives Him as their Saviour.

This is what pre-destination is about.  It isn't about God pre-setting those who will believe and those who don't.  Or pre-setting some to heaven and some to hell.. regardless of what they do with their will.

pre-destination in Ephesians is about the local New Testament assembly.

It is amazing the methods  you Americans try to get around what the scripture plainly teaches.

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58 minutes ago, Invicta said:

It is amazing the methods  you Americans try to get around what the scripture plainly teaches.

Invicta, what's with the "you Americans" stuff all the time? Whether it's eschatology, foreign policy, guns... Is it necessary to have such an 'us and them' attitude when talking to brothers and sisters in Christ? Do you do it to any neighbours who come from other countries too?

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On 11/21/2015, 6:37:51, Invicta said:

I don't think so.  

Eph 1:4  According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love:

Before the foundation of the world, not after we were saved.
 

Still nothing that says people are saved or damned before the foundation of the world. The election is based on foreknowledge leaving the door open for freewill.

1 hour ago, Invicta said:

It is amazing the methods  you Americans try to get around what the scripture plainly teaches.

We Americans are just to be blamed for everything, huh?

12 minutes ago, Alimantado said:

Invicta, what's with the "you Americans" stuff all the time? Whether it's eschatology, foreign policy, guns... Is it necessary to have such an 'us and them' attitude when talking to brothers and sisters in Christ? Do you do it to any neighbours who come from other countries too?

Reminds me of YouTube where Americans are blamed for everything and given credit for nothing unless it's bad. 

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1 hour ago, Alimantado said:

Invicta, what's with the "you Americans" stuff all the time? Whether it's eschatology, foreign policy, guns... Is it necessary to have such an 'us and them' attitude when talking to brothers and sisters in Christ? Do you do it to any neighbours who come from other countries too?

Apologies.

No, of course we welcome all nationalities. In our church we have had a Zambian preacher, a regular Czech girl, a semi regular Lithuanian,   we have had Dutch French, German, a South African Preacher, we even considered an Australian Pastor (rejected)

When we are able to spend a few day in France, we try to visit the Eglise Baptiste Biblique in Laon.  The pasteur is an American Baptist. 

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10 hours ago, Invicta said:

It is amazing the methods  you Americans try to get around what the scripture plainly teaches.

Funny that, I am from New Zealand :)

Independent missionary baptists who reject calvinism like I do are all over the world.. not just USA :)

Indeed, our congregation consists of people from Arkansas in USA, Korea, New Zealand, Solomon Islands and Borneo.  At one stage we also had a Japanese member.

But yeah... just so you know.. I am from Christchurch city, New Zealand.

Kia ora

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9 minutes ago, Invicta said:

My question is "Does God have the right to choose, or not?"

 Did Go choose the Hebrews to be His people? or did they choose him?

of course God has the 'right to choose". On occasion God even took all choice away from people: "And when it was told Saul, he sent other messengers, and they prophesied likewise. And Saul sent messengers again the third time, and they prophesied also. Then went he also to Ramah, and came to a great well that is in Sechu: and he asked and said, Where are Samuel and David? And one said, Behold, they be at Naioth in Ramah. And he stripped off his clothes also, and prophesied before Samuel in like manner, and lay down naked all that day and all that night. Wherefore they say, Is Saul also among the prophets? " (1Sam 19:21-24) In this case we see that God took all Saul's wil away for a short time and humbled him, making him strip naked and lay down and prophesy before His prophet, Samuel.

But, that God gave us the right to choose, as well, would make sense, as He created us in His image.  And of course, God not only chose the Hebrews as His people, (there would be no Israel, no Hebrews, except that He called them out of Ur of the Chaldees, in Abram), but apparently they had the right, at least as individuals, as well as a people, to reject Him.  Jesus reveals that in His own words: "O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, thou that killest the prophets, and stonest them which are sent unto thee, how often would I have gathered thy children together, even as a hen gathereth her chickens under her wings, and ye would not!"

If God is sovereign, why can he not allow us the right to choose, be it well or poorly?

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Of course God allowed Free Will.  

He didn't simply "allow" Free Will.....Freedom of will is inherent in any moral agent.  Man was made in his image, and one of the critical facets of being a moral agent is freedom of will....if man didn't posses it, he'd be no more a moral agent than a mushroom.

He gave Adam Free Will and he used it to sin.  

Yes.

He begat sons in his own image,  

Yes.  But they are also as much in God's image as Adam's.  No more, no less.  This is where Calvinists go too far with this argument.  All men, are still made in the image of God as much as they are in Adam's image.  Genesis 9:6 (2,000 years after Adam and post God's destroying the whole planet for sin) he still says man is made in God's image:

Gen 9:6

Whoso sheddeth man's blood, by man shall his blood be shed: for in the image of God made he man

This classic "Adam was made in God's image...but his descedants were made in Adam's image" argument is utterly destroyed by this passage, and frankly....it proves too much, because it would otherwise suggest that man is now not appreciably special no longer is God's "image bearer"  and no more significant than an animal.  

Since then his descendants have been born dead

No verse of Scripture says that.  No verse of Scripture says or even implies that post-Adam....all men are BORN...."dead".  Spiritually or otherwise, it's a complete leap in logic and you'll post no verse for this proposition.

and dead men don't have free will.  

Dead men don't disobey God either, as someone eruditely pointed out earlier. After all....if that drowning man is too dead to  "reach out and grab the life-raft" (since Calvies think this is such a brilliant analogy)....than, they were also too dead to have jumped off the side  of the ship in the first place....(or even board it.) 

    But what you mean is that there is some "Spiritual" death which is caused from Adam's Spiritual death.  Even if that is granted.............it certainly doesn't mean they no longer are possesed of a free will.  No passage of Scripture states or even implies that simply because one is Spiritually dead they no longer posses a free will or even that it's capabilities are hampered. That's all beside the point anyway since Scripture nowhere states that men are "dead" Spiritually because of Adam.  That's more than a mere mistake.  It's ostensibly a fabrication, and flies in the face of a plethora of Biblical evidence saying otherwise.  All men are sinners and Spiritually dead because THEY THEMSELVES sin....Adam can live, die, exist, be perfect, not ever have existed, or be a metaphor or monkey.  The Scripture says all men Spiritually die for their own sins....and that everyone has sinned. They die physically because of Adam.  

Q. Who will He raise on the Last Day?  A Those who the Father gave him.

You are correct up to this point.

Q.  Who can come to Jesus? A.  Only those who the father draws to him.

Uh, uh, uh....not so fast........................That isn't in the Scripture.  The "Father" is not here described as the one who "draws"...not throughout this entire gospel....John makes it evidently clear who does the "drawing"...and that's the Son (person 2 of the Trinity)....and John makes it abundantly clear that if Christ (2nd member of Trinity) be lifted up...he will DRAW all men unto himself............I hardly need to re-quote that verse again.

As you can see from verse 26, that teaching was not popular with many of His disciples, any more than it is with many of his disciples today.  

You've reinforced your view epistemically and psychologically with a belief that since it's so unnatural to accept or unpopular, or that a normal (read unsaved man here) would balk at it that it carries with it an automatic weight of being more inherently Biblical or Spiritual or esotericly special to the redeemed.  It's specially understood by the Christian who is "in the know" about these issues.  In other words, the very fact that men nearly Universally reject this teaching is actually evidence FOR it's truth.....that is....the uniquely Calvinistic spin you place upon it.

The argument for this (even if it's only sub-conscious) goes something like this:

1.) Man is a fallen creature ladled with the noetic effects of sin such that he cannot discern Spiritual truth

2.) God through the Holy Spirit reveals the truths of himself and the truth of his Word only to those he has chosen.

3.) The "Natural man" cannot and will not accept nor understand these truths except it be given by God

4.) Non-Calvinists/ Arminians/ Pelagians/ Sinners/ "Free-willies" (all the same in a Calvinist's mind) reject these teachings as the Holy Spirit hasn't revealed it to them.

Therefore:

Those who reject the gospel and the atonement as understood by Calvinists are un-enlightened by  the Holy Spirit,....and by extension.....the more these teachings are rejected....the more they self-validate.

It's an impossible spiral....the more we reject what you say....

The more it self-validates in your mind.  Calvinism is so circularly impossible to defeat for this reason (and a million others) 

Can you walk with Him and yet reject His teaching?

Yes, Judas did......but, the more your are argued against.....the more your view self-validates.

It's the circularity and tormentous nature of Calvinism (and explains why it's so hard to convince a Calvie he's mistaken).

The more anyone rejects your view....the more you immediately see them as the false or un-enlightened persons who "walked-away" and thus, the more YOUR view must be the one which is correct.

Edited by Heir of Salvation
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  • Independent Fundamental Baptist

Still have never had anyone (who claims that man doesn't have freewill) explain these two simple verses...

They have built also the high places of Baal, to burn their sons with fire for burnt offerings unto Baal, which I commanded not, nor spake it, neither came it into my mind:
 
And they built the high places of Baal, which are in the valley of the son of Hinnom, to cause their sons and their daughters to pass through the fire unto Molech; which I commanded them not, neither came it into my mind, that they should do this abomination, to cause Judah to sin.
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3 hours ago, No Nicolaitans said:

Still have never had anyone (who claims that man doesn't have freewill) explain these two simple verses...

They have built also the high places of Baal, to burn their sons with fire for burnt offerings unto Baal, which I commanded not, nor spake it, neither came it into my mind:
 
And they built the high places of Baal, which are in the valley of the son of Hinnom, to cause their sons and their daughters to pass through the fire unto Molech; which I commanded them not, neither came it into my mind, that they should do this abomination, to cause Judah to sin.

Do you mean, "What happens to unelect babies who die?" I have heard one (and only one) Calvinist say that they are tossed into the fires of hell and Christians should give God glory for it. I make this not up.

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17 minutes ago, Critical Mass said:

Do you mean, "What happens to unelect babies who die?" I have heard one (and only one) Calvinist say that they are tossed into the fires of hell and Christians should give God glory for it. I make this not up.

No...sorry. If man doesn't have freewill, and God directs all of man's actions and thoughts...then there's a major conundrum with those verses, because in those verses, God is speaking to Israel concerning their sinful idolatrous acts. He's saying that...

  1. He didn't command them to do it.
  2. He didn't tell them to do it.
  3. It didn't enter his mind that they should do it.

If God didn't command them or tell them to do it, the actions were their own.

If it didn't even enter God's mind for them to do those acts, then the thoughts to do the acts came from their own minds.

So...either God lied, or there's no explanation other than they did it of their own freewill.

Not only has a non-freewiller ever explained those verses, but even when confronted with the verses...they ignore them and continue their non-freewill belief.

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15 hours ago, Alimantado said:

What does determine who will believe and who won't? Calvinism attempts to answer this question, but I'm not sure scripture does actually tell us.

Of course God knows who will believe and who won't.  And....

The bible teaches the whosoever believes in Jesus as their Saviour will receive eternal life.  John 3:16, Romans 10:9-10, etc

I see this as --God does know in advance, but that doesn't mean that He made the decision for us.

A dad taking his kid to sewing class may know that it will hard and the daughter will prick herself.. but that doesn't always mean he did the hardness or the pricking or chose to pick up the needle and thread.  And actually, if the dad intervened and stopped the daughter when she pricked herself.. the daughter would learn little or nothing about sewing.

He knows the consequences of what we do, that doesn't mean he always does the choosing for us

Course, where the hole in my thinking is is that God DOES know everything.. and created us.. knowing what would happen.. knew who would be saved and not.  

Maybe the hole is covered in thinking that God created us anyway out of huge grace, knowing what would happen, but did because He knew people could choose to believe in Him out of free will.. and that would be far greater than creating automatons.

 

 

 

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7 hours ago, 360watt said:

Of course God knows who will believe and who won't.  And....

The bible teaches the whosoever believes in Jesus as their Saviour will receive eternal life.  John 3:16, Romans 10:9-10, etc

I see this as --God does know in advance, but that doesn't mean that He made the decision for us.

A dad taking his kid to sewing class may know that it will hard and the daughter will prick herself.. but that doesn't always mean he did the hardness or the pricking or chose to pick up the needle and thread.  And actually, if the dad intervened and stopped the daughter when she pricked herself.. the daughter would learn little or nothing about sewing.

He knows the consequences of what we do, that doesn't mean he always does the choosing for us

Course, where the hole in my thinking is is that God DOES know everything.. and created us.. knowing what would happen.. knew who would be saved and not.  

Maybe the hole is covered in thinking that God created us anyway out of huge grace, knowing what would happen, but did because He knew people could choose to believe in Him out of free will.. and that would be far greater than creating automatons.

Thanks for responding, 360Watt. Exactly, and this is the critical bit that never gets addressed in these analogies. God is not a spectator with foreknowledge but a creator with foreknowledge, so if we want to philosophical about it, we need to ask what is the relationship between our created being and the decisions we make. Do our characters and desires determine what decisions we make and if so where do our characters and desires come from?

7 hours ago, 360watt said:

Maybe the hole is covered in thinking that God created us anyway out of huge grace, knowing what would happen, but did because He knew people could choose to believe in Him out of free will.. and that would be far greater than creating automatons.

This answer seems to assume that it's an inevitable consequence of free will that some people will choose one way and some another. Or that if 100% of people make the same choice then they must be automatons. But I don't see why you can't have a group of people that all desire to choose the same way and all do choose the same way when given a free choice. The ratio seems irrelevent to me: if it can be 50%, why not 100%?

When I hear 'free will' Christians talking about sinfulness they sometimes seem to bring in Calvinism by the back door. They will say that 'Joe' was saved because although he was selfish, depraved sinner, he still had a good heart deep down, so when the Holy Spirit drew, he responded to that call. His brother Jack, however--the renowned bad boy of the two--he was just that bit too selfish and too depraved to respond.

So Calvinism seems to say that everyone is too depraved to respond to the Gospel, so the Holy Spirit has to change the desires of some for any to be saved at all. While 'free will' proponents seem to say that just some are too depraved to respond to the Gospel, and they remain too depraved, and unsaved. If either is true then 'how did they get too depraved?' is the next question.

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Romans 8:28−30

 

Pastor Alec Taylor

Foreknew ... predestined ... called ... justified ... glorified 

 

The Jews had the advantage of possessing the special revelation of God through the Old Testament (‘the oracles of God’, 2). They were however, the same as the Gentiles (‘Greeks’) in that they also were sinners. They are all under sin (9,23). Paul fully accepted the Old Testament Scriptures as the word of God and quoted from the Psalms and Isaiah to prove the guilt of everyone (10–18). Man’s depravity is universal! Notice the words ‘none’ (10–11). Man in his natural state is ignorant of spiritual things (11; cp. 1 Corinthians 2:14). Sin is vile and its terrible fruit is described in verses 10 to 18. We also sin when we fail to do what God commands (sins of omission). It is sin not to seek after God our Creator (11). Our goodness is not good in God’s sight (12) because all our righteousnesses are like filthy rags (Isaiah 64:6). The speech of sinners is deceitful, poisonous and full of cursing and bitterness (13–14). The tongue is a world of iniquity (James 3:6) which we must learn to control if we belong to the Lord (Ephesians 4:31; 5:4).

Let your speech always be with grace (Colossians 4:6). Sin also produces murderous attitudes and brings misery and destruction (15–16). Man in his sin cannot know peace nor does he fear God (17–18). When we speak to many who are not Christians, it is soon apparent from their attitude to sin, righteousness and coming judgment that there is no fear of God before their eyes. Many vainly believe that because God is love there will be no judgment and so nothing to fear. They fail to understand the nature of the love and justice of God. We must tell them that the Bible teaches that God is angry with them and that they will perish if they do not repent.

God’s holy law cannot save us, but it reveals our sin. The law silences and condemns us all. It speaks that every mouth may be stopped, and all the world may become guilty before God (19–20). Let us praise God for giving his Son to die so that in him our guilt is cleared through justification. The doctrine of predestination brings great comfort if rightly understood. On what basis did God choose us before he made the world (Ephesians 1:4)? Some Christians interpret ‘foreknew’ to mean that God chose those whom he knew would have faith to choose him, making election (God’s choice) ultimately dependent upon us. Such teaching fails to accept that faith is the gift of God (Ephesians 2:8) and that we can only come to the Son when the Father draws us to him (John 6:44). The foreknowledge of God means more than him knowing about us. It means ‘to know and to love with intimate personal awareness.’ (cp. Genesis 4:1; 18:19; Hosea 13:5; Amos 3:2; Matthew7:23; John 10:14). The Lord did not set his love upon us for any good found in us, but on the basis of his free and sovereign grace according to the good pleasure of his will (Ephesians 1:5; cp. Deuteronomy7:6–8). The apostles Paul and Peter poured out their hearts in praise to God when they thought of the doctrine of election (Ephesians 1:3–6; 1 Peter 1:2–3).

God has chosen us to be holy (Ephesians 1:4). Those who lead careless lives and yet profess to be saved should not take their salvation forgranted. We are urged, ‘Be diligent to make your calling and election sure’ (2 Peter 1:10). We have been predestined to be conformed to the image of his Son (29). Can the beauty of the Lord Jesus be seen in  your life?

There are five links in the chain of salvation that cannot be broken. Notice that they are all the work of God. — He foreknew ... he predestined ... he called .... he justified ... he glorified. We cannot lose our salvation. Everyone whom God has predestined, he calls, everyone who is called is justified, and everyone who is justified will be glorified. God does not choose us and then lose us; what God begins, he completes! He who has begun a good work in you will complete it until the day of Jesus Christ (Philippians 1:6). He is able to keep you from stumbling, and to present you faultless before the presence of his glory with exceeding joy (Jude 24).

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  • Independent Fundamental Baptist
On ‎2015‎年‎11‎月‎5‎日 at 8:45 AM, Shadowfeathers said:

10

The Bible teaches that man is morally corrupt (Jer. 17:9. Rom. 3:10-18).

That he is dead in trespasses and sins (Eph. 2:1).

That he is spiritually blind (1 Cor. 2:14).

But is does not teach that man cannot respond to the Gospel.

Just the opposite, the Bible teaches that Christ gives light to every man, (Jn. 1:9)

He draws all men to himself (Jn 12:32),

He convicts men through the Holy Spirit (Jn 16:8).

God calls men to salvation through the gospel, (2 Thes. 2:14),

And He has ordained that the gospel be preached to every creature (Mk. 16:15).

The above points that Shadowfeathers lesson brought out are excellent.

Before salvation, we are dead in our sins and it is our nature to sin and disobey God above and His law; we are morally corrupt and spiritually blind. And, as God gives light to every man that he must repent, and that God draws men to Himself, it is up to the individual, through his own free will (the heart), to accept (as Shadowfeathers lesson said, 'respond'), to the salvation that He freely offers.

Calvinism (all five points of TULIP), as we previoulsy discussed, is without a biblical foundation, erroneous in its definition of biblical terms (dead in sins, election, predestination, etc...), is a man-made dogma based on the Roman Catholic Church and passed onto our generation by the Reformers (Calvin, etc...).

After salvation, as Shadowfeathers timely study brought out, it is the privledge, and honour, for those who have been saved by the mercy and grace of God, to preach the gospel so that others may hear the good news of salvation, and be saved.

 

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  • Administrators

There is no number 19. I think you may be referring to the first post by Shadowfeathers. The #19 you see there is the members reputation, not the post number. The answer to your original question would have to come from the member that posted it.

It may help you to know that the post you replied to is three years old. The person that posted it has not logged into this board since June of this year. I tell you this in case you do not get a reply from her, you will know why.

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