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Shadowfeathers

Errors of Calvanism

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On ‎2015‎年‎11‎月‎5‎日‎ ‎上午‎, Shadowfeathers said:

Election

  • A – God elected those whom He foresaw would believe.

  • C – God's election rested solely in His own sovereign will. It is not based on anything foreseen in man.

This point is very important to properly understand the true doctrine of election and to uncover the errors of Calvinism. Election is based on the 'foreknowledge of God,' and not on the understanding, or knowledge, of man.

"For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren." Romans 8:29

 

Edited by Alan
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In the spirit of getting some more fruitful contributions on this thread:

On 05/11/2015, 00:45:47, Shadowfeathers said:

Questions of Mystery!

  • How can God be sovereign and how can man be responsible?

  • How can there be responsibility without ability?

  • How can limits be placed on an infinite sacrifice?

  • Great preachers have strongly emphasized both divine sovereignty and human responsibility.

  • You might be surprised that C. H. Spurgeon leaned toward Calvanism, although he strongly disagreed with the doctrine of limited atonement.

I particularly like this assertion that there are questions of mystery. Trying to comprehend God's plan and will does lead to some tricky philosophical questions, which preachers and theologans have been speaking on and writing about since the early church. I don't know what else the preacher said about the questions listed but I tend to think it's fine to say that they are indeed mysteries--things we may not have satisfactory answers for on this earth. There are examples in God's Word, e.g. Job and Romans, where God chooses not to answer direct questions about His workings. Perhaps systems like Calvinism are an attempt to answer absolutely everything, and in doing so they over-reach.

On 05/11/2015, 00:45:47, Shadowfeathers said:

Most Calvanist are probably saved, but just confused on the Scriptures.

This is what I've always believed, since the Calvinists I've spoken to proclaim the Gospel that I acknowledge, though I think they're wrong in many areas. But there are many on this forum who believe the opposite: that a Calvinist is very unlikely to be a Christian and that a Calvinist is really equivalent to, say, a muslim or a mormon.

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17 hours ago, Alan said:

This point is very important to properly understand the true doctrine of election and to uncover the errors of Calvinism. Election is based on the 'foreknowledge of God,' and not on the understanding, or knowledge, of man.

"For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren." Romans 8:29

 

Sounds to me like a person is predestined to look like Jesus one day, nothing about being saved.

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4 hours ago, Critical Mass said:

Sounds to me like a person is predestined to look like Jesus one day, nothing about being saved.

That is correct. Part of the doctrine of election and predestination, is that after salvation, every saint is predestioned, "... to be conformed to the image of his Son..." Unffortunately, you may not understand that Paul is directly talking to, and about, the saints.

Let us take a closer look at the context.

The whole context of Romans 8:1-39 is only applicable to someone who is saved, redeemed, has the Spirit, is a brother, and is called a saint. To say paul is saying nothing about salvation is not correct. Verse 9, "But ye are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, if so be that the Spirit of God dwell in you. Now if any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his."

Let us start from verse 27, "And he that searcheth the hearts knoweth what is the mind of the Spirit [only the saints have the Spirit] because he maketh intercession to the will of God. And we know that all things work together for good to them that love God [only a saint can love God], to them who are the called [the saved, the redeemed] according to his purpose. For whom he did foreknow, he also [also: in addition too after salvation: after being redeemed; after the Spirit enters the saint] did predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren." Please also take careful note Paul stated, "among the brethren."

"Also" is the key word. After salvation, also, in addition to, the saint is predestined to "be conformed to the image of his Son," and the other gifts of salvation from verse 30-39

From verse 30 to 39 there are other blessings every saint has after salvation.

I hope the above study helped.

Alan

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We also remember that, if we are to be comformed to the image of His Son, well, the Son is the express image of the Father, sooooo...

As for the mystery of how God can be sovereign, and man responsible, this has never been a stretch for me: If God is sovereign, which He surely is, then is does not that sovereignty expand to ALLOWING man, IN His  sovereignty, the ability and responsibility to make a choice to follow or reject? Apparently, even the angels have some amount of free will is a third of them followed Lucifer in his rebellion, surely an act of free will-else God willed evil, willed rebellion against Himself, willed that man would fall to sin, etc...See the mess we get without free will?

Of course, there are those instances where clearly the Lord has prepared someone to do something to show forth His glory. For instance:

"And the LORD said unto Moses, Rise up early in the morning, and stand before Pharaoh, and say unto him, Thus saith the LORD God of the Hebrews, Let my people go, that they may serve me. For I will at this time send all my plagues upon thine heart, and upon thy servants, and upon thy people; that thou mayest know that there is none like me in all the earth. For now I will stretch out my hand, that I may smite thee and thy people with pestilence; and thou shalt be cut off from the earth. And in very deed for this cause have I raised thee up, for to shew in thee my power; and that my name may be declared throughout all the earth." (Ex 9:13-16)

  In this instance, it seems the Lord specifically set Pharaoh to reject His commands to let them go, for the purpose of showing His power, not just to Egypt, but to all the nations that would later hear of it. We see that 40 years later those of Jericho knew of it, and feared them because of it. So it had a more lasting effect than just then and there. We also have the example of Cyrus being called by name as the king who would release the Jews from captivity and make possible the rebuilding of the temple in the book of Isaiah, long before it happened.

So it makes me wonder, perhaps those who would be in power don't have the same amount of free will that others do-those who wield power and earthly authority seem to be more directed by God in various ways, or God just gives us the rulers we deserve, who will bring about the expected end. After all the Proverbs 21:1 tells us "The king's heart is in the hand of the LORD, as the rivers of water: he turneth it whithersoever he will." Would this not extend to ALL earthly rulers, be they kings, emperors, pharaohs and presidents?

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1 hour ago, Ukulelemike said:

We also remember that, if we are to be comformed to the image of His Son, well, the Son is the express image of the Father, sooooo...

As for the mystery of how God can be sovereign, and man responsible, this has never been a stretch for me: If God is sovereign, which He surely is, then is does not that sovereignty expand to ALLOWING man, IN His  sovereignty, the ability and responsibility to make a choice to follow or reject? Apparently, even the angels have some amount of free will is a third of them followed Lucifer in his rebellion, surely an act of free will-else God willed evil, willed rebellion against Himself, willed that man would fall to sin, etc...See the mess we get without free will?

Of course God allowed Free Will.  He gave Adam Free Will and he used it to sin.  On the day that Adam sinned, he died, He begat sons in his own image,  Since then his descendants have been born dead and dead men don't have free will.  Consider the following verses.

John 6:37  All that the Father giveth me shall come to me; and him that cometh to me I will in no wise cast out.
38  For I came down from heaven, not to do mine own will, but the will of him that sent me.
39  And this is the Father’s will which hath sent me, that of all which he hath given me I should lose nothing, but should raise it up again at the last day.
40  And this is the will of him that sent me, that every one which seeth the Son, and believeth on him, may have everlasting life: and I will raise him up at the last day.41  The Jews then murmured at him, because he said, I am the bread which came down from heaven.
42  And they said, Is not this Jesus, the son of Joseph, whose father and mother we know? how is it then that he saith, I came down from heaven?
43  Jesus therefore answered and said unto them, Murmur not among yourselves.
44  No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him: and I will raise him up at the last day.


Q. Who will He raise on the Last Day?  A Those who the Father gave him.

Q.  Who can come to Jesus? A.  Only those who the father draws to him.

6:65  And he said, Therefore said I unto you, that no man can come unto me, except it were given unto him of my Father.
66  From that time many of his disciples went back, and walked no more with him.
67  Then said Jesus unto the twelve, Will ye also go away?
68  Then Simon Peter answered him, Lord, to whom shall we go? thou hast the words of eternal life.

As you can see from verse 26, that teaching was not popular with many of His disciples, any more than it is with many of his disciples today.  Can you walk with Him and yet reject His teaching?

 

 

 

Edited by Invicta
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11 minutes ago, Invicta said:

 dead men don't have free will.  

 

Interesting passages Invicta. Sadly though you pre-text them with this little quote that cannot be found in Scripture anywhere. This is the issue with all false teaching. It is based on a predisposed notion APART from Scripture and then Scripture is twisted around to conform to the predisposed false notion.

You have heard the term cart before the horse. Your adopted idea in this post places the horse in the cart, therefore the cart goes nowhere.

Sorry dude, you are false in this.

Edited by wretched

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4 minutes ago, wretched said:

Interesting passages Invicta. Sadly though you pre-text them with this little quote that cannot be found in Scripture anywhere. This is the issue with all false teaching. It is based on a predisposed notion APART from Scripture and then Scripture is twisted around to conform to the predisposed false notion.

You have hear the term cart before the horse. Your adopted idea in this post places the horse in the cart, therefore the cart goes nowhere.

Sorry dude, you are false in this.

 

Well you would say that wouldn't you? I edited the previous post

Edited by Invicta

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33 minutes ago, wretched said:

Interesting passages Invicta. Sadly though you pre-text them with this little quote that cannot be found in Scripture anywhere. This is the issue with all false teaching. It is based on a predisposed notion APART from Scripture and then Scripture is twisted around to conform to the predisposed false notion.

You have heard the term cart before the horse. Your adopted idea in this post places the horse in the cart, therefore the cart goes nowhere.

Sorry dude, you are false in this.

Amen. It is not talking about physical death. If we use the same false logic, we should not preach the gospel to the unsaved, since dead men cannot hear either. Dead men cannot sin either.

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16 ¶  And the LORD God commanded the man, saying, Of every tree of the garden thou mayest freely eat:
17  But of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, thou shalt not eat of it: for in the day that thou eatest thereof thou shalt surely die.

Adam ate and died spiritually.  His offspring were born spiritually dead.

Eph 2:1  And you hath he quickened, who were dead in trespasses and sins;
Eph 2:5  Even when we were dead in sins, hath quickened us together with Christ, (by grace ye are saved;)
Col 2:13  And you, being dead in your sins and the uncircumcision of your flesh, hath he quickened together with him, having forgiven you all trespasses;

 

50 minutes ago, mkrishna said:

Amen. It is not talking about physical death. If we use the same false logic, we should not preach the gospel to the unsaved, since dead men cannot hear either. Dead men cannot sin either.

Nonesense.  It is by the foolishness of preaching that men are saved.

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3 hours ago, Ukulelemike said:

As for the mystery of how God can be sovereign, and man responsible, this has never been a stretch for me: If God is sovereign, which He surely is, then is does not that sovereignty expand to ALLOWING man, IN His  sovereignty, the ability and responsibility to make a choice to follow or reject? Apparently, even the angels have some amount of free will is a third of them followed Lucifer in his rebellion, surely an act of free will-else God willed evil, willed rebellion against Himself, willed that man would fall to sin, etc...See the mess we get without free will?

Regarding God's sovereignty and man's responsibility, what I've always considered a philosophical puzzle is the nature of choices. Part of the explanation for choices is free will: no choice, no free will. If I pushed you off a cliff, we could easily explain why you went over. But if you jumped, we might ask why you jumped, and the answer could not be 'free will', because free will only explains the existence of a choice, not why a particular option is chosen.

Why do we make the choices we do? Do we make them because of our wills and desires? If so, where do those wills and desires come from? Do they come from our characters and constitutions? If so, where do those characters/constitutions come from? If we are created beings, does that mean our characters are created? And if our characters are created, does the creator decide what kinds of characters we have? And if the creator decides, and the creator has foreknowledge of exactly what we'll do with our lives if given a certain character, isn't it ultimately the creator who consciously determines our choices by determining our characters?

To me, the big question that Calvinism attempts to answer that other systems don't is why people make the choices they do. Calvinism's answer is that it is God who determines our choices. I think this is wrong, but I admit I don't have an explanation.

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4 hours ago, Invicta said:

Of course God allowed Free Will.  He gave Adam Free Will and he used it to sin.  On the day that Adam sinned, he died, He begat sons in his own image,  Since then his descendants have been born dead and dead men don't have free will.  Consider the following verses.

John 6:37  All that the Father giveth me shall come to me; and him that cometh to me I will in no wise cast out.
38  For I came down from heaven, not to do mine own will, but the will of him that sent me.
39  And this is the Father’s will which hath sent me, that of all which he hath given me I should lose nothing, but should raise it up again at the last day.
40  And this is the will of him that sent me, that every one which seeth the Son, and believeth on him, may have everlasting life: and I will raise him up at the last day.41  The Jews then murmured at him, because he said, I am the bread which came down from heaven.
42  And they said, Is not this Jesus, the son of Joseph, whose father and mother we know? how is it then that he saith, I came down from heaven?
43  Jesus therefore answered and said unto them, Murmur not among yourselves.
44  No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him: and I will raise him up at the last day.


Q. Who will He raise on the Last Day?  A Those who the Father gave him.

Q.  Who can come to Jesus? A.  Only those who the father draws to him.

6:65  And he said, Therefore said I unto you, that no man can come unto me, except it were given unto him of my Father.
66  From that time many of his disciples went back, and walked no more with him.
67  Then said Jesus unto the twelve, Will ye also go away?
68  Then Simon Peter answered him, Lord, to whom shall we go? thou hast the words of eternal life.

As you can see from verse 26, that teaching was not popular with many of His disciples, any more than it is with many of his disciples today.  Can you walk with Him and yet reject His teaching?

 

 

 

Good verses, however you are making a philosophical leap here. It is true that only those the Father has given to Jesus will come to Him. However, that doesn't discount that ALL are drawn and ALL are lightened by Christ, thus ALL have an opportunity to come. But, the Lord knows from the beginning who WILL, and as such, they are them which the Father giveth to the Son.  We are ALL given of the Father, but some choose not to answer.  Jesus died for the sin of the WORLD-that's the same world that the Father so loved that He gave His only begotten Son for. The world is the lost system-that incorporates everyone. That they are dead in sin does not take away the ability to choose to follow or not, nor does the Bible say as much-it is an assumption, a leap that is not in scripture; dead just means without Christ. Every single person on earth who is not born again is dead, and they make choices every day, some even to follow Christ unto eternal life.

"Now is the judgment of this world: now shall the prince of this world be cast out. And I, if I be lifted up from the earth, will draw all men unto me."

By the way, they didn't leave Christ because He said the Father would draw them, they left because of misunderstanding His doctrine on the His being the Bread of life, and their need to eat His flesh and drink His blood. That's why they left.

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On 11/19/2015, 1:23:22, Alan said:

That is correct. Part of the doctrine of election and predestination, is that after salvation, every saint is predestioned, "... to be conformed to the image of his Son..." Unffortunately, you may not understand that Paul is directly talking to, and about, the saints.

Let us take a closer look at the context.

The whole context of Romans 8:1-39 is only applicable to someone who is saved, redeemed, has the Spirit, is a brother, and is called a saint. To say paul is saying nothing about salvation is not correct. Verse 9, "But ye are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, if so be that the Spirit of God dwell in you. Now if any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his."

Let us start from verse 27, "And he that searcheth the hearts knoweth what is the mind of the Spirit [only the saints have the Spirit] because he maketh intercession to the will of God. And we know that all things work together for good to them that love God [only a saint can love God], to them who are the called [the saved, the redeemed] according to his purpose. For whom he did foreknow, he also [also: in addition too after salvation: after being redeemed; after the Spirit enters the saint] did predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren." Please also take careful note Paul stated, "among the brethren."

"Also" is the key word. After salvation, also, in addition to, the saint is predestined to "be conformed to the image of his Son," and the other gifts of salvation from verse 30-39

From verse 30 to 39 there are other blessings every saint has after salvation.

I hope the above study helped.

Alan

The passage does seem to suggest that only the predestined are called. To me this is the most difficult thing in the passage. Yet Paul says somewhere else that Christ "is the Savior of all men" indicating everyone has a chance. So, even though there's only an elect who are predestined there's seem to be a chance for everyone to be part of that elect. It's not a locked out predestination that most would never have a chance to be part of.  A man can make himself part of that predestination if he simply believes on Christ.

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I don't think so.  

Eph 1:4  According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love:

Before the foundation of the world, not after we were saved.
 

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Predestination is about two things:

 

1)  God has pre-set His system of churches for believers to join after they are saved.. (and after baptism).  These churches also have a pre-set destiny in the church age

2) God has pre-set the place of heaven for anyone who entrusts their salvation with Jesus... anyone who receives Him as their Saviour.

This is what pre-destination is about.  It isn't about God pre-setting those who will believe and those who don't.  Or pre-setting some to heaven and some to hell.. regardless of what they do with their will.

pre-destination in Ephesians is about the local New Testament assembly.

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23 hours ago, Invicta said:

I don't think so.  

Eph 1:4  According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love:

Before the foundation of the world, not after we were saved.
 

May I remind you that due to the foreknowledge of God He knew who would be saved and when. So, we, the saved, were chosen before the foundation of the world.

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16 hours ago, Alan said:

May I remind you that due to the foreknowledge of God He knew who would be saved and when. So, we, the saved, were chosen before the foundation of the world.

To solidify this thought, bear in mind the Bible says that we are ALREADY seated in heavenly places in Jesus Christ:

But God, who is rich in mercy, for his great love wherewith he loved us, Even when we were dead in sins, hath quickened us together with Christ, (by grace ye are saved;) And hath raised us up together, and made us sit together in heavenly places in Christ Jesus:That in the ages to come he might shew the exceeding riches of his grace in his kindness toward us through Christ Jesus." (Eph 2:4-7). These verses show things from God's perspective, that we who have been saved have already been seated in heavenly places-to God it is already a done deal, though we may be here on earth still in the flesh. God's perspective on things is always from the eternal, from the beginning to the end, there is not difference to God.  

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Amen! Ephesians 2:4-7 tells all of us one of the wonders of salvation. Thank you for bringing out this wonderful blessing. So often we forget the persepective of the thoughts of God in eternity.

Alan

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On 22/11/2015, 00:59:47, 360watt said:

Predestination is about two things:

 

1)  God has pre-set His system of churches for believers to join after they are saved.. (and after baptism).  These churches also have a pre-set destiny in the church age

2) God has pre-set the place of heaven for anyone who entrusts their salvation with Jesus... anyone who receives Him as their Saviour.

This is what pre-destination is about.  It isn't about God pre-setting those who will believe and those who don't.  Or pre-setting some to heaven and some to hell.. regardless of what they do with their will.

pre-destination in Ephesians is about the local New Testament assembly.

It is amazing the methods  you Americans try to get around what the scripture plainly teaches.

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58 minutes ago, Invicta said:

It is amazing the methods  you Americans try to get around what the scripture plainly teaches.

Invicta, what's with the "you Americans" stuff all the time? Whether it's eschatology, foreign policy, guns... Is it necessary to have such an 'us and them' attitude when talking to brothers and sisters in Christ? Do you do it to any neighbours who come from other countries too?

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On 11/21/2015, 6:37:51, Invicta said:

I don't think so.  

Eph 1:4  According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love:

Before the foundation of the world, not after we were saved.
 

Still nothing that says people are saved or damned before the foundation of the world. The election is based on foreknowledge leaving the door open for freewill.

1 hour ago, Invicta said:

It is amazing the methods  you Americans try to get around what the scripture plainly teaches.

We Americans are just to be blamed for everything, huh?

12 minutes ago, Alimantado said:

Invicta, what's with the "you Americans" stuff all the time? Whether it's eschatology, foreign policy, guns... Is it necessary to have such an 'us and them' attitude when talking to brothers and sisters in Christ? Do you do it to any neighbours who come from other countries too?

Reminds me of YouTube where Americans are blamed for everything and given credit for nothing unless it's bad. 

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1 hour ago, Alimantado said:

Invicta, what's with the "you Americans" stuff all the time? Whether it's eschatology, foreign policy, guns... Is it necessary to have such an 'us and them' attitude when talking to brothers and sisters in Christ? Do you do it to any neighbours who come from other countries too?

Apologies.

No, of course we welcome all nationalities. In our church we have had a Zambian preacher, a regular Czech girl, a semi regular Lithuanian,   we have had Dutch French, German, a South African Preacher, we even considered an Australian Pastor (rejected)

When we are able to spend a few day in France, we try to visit the Eglise Baptiste Biblique in Laon.  The pasteur is an American Baptist. 

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10 hours ago, Invicta said:

It is amazing the methods  you Americans try to get around what the scripture plainly teaches.

Funny that, I am from New Zealand :)

Independent missionary baptists who reject calvinism like I do are all over the world.. not just USA :)

Indeed, our congregation consists of people from Arkansas in USA, Korea, New Zealand, Solomon Islands and Borneo.  At one stage we also had a Japanese member.

But yeah... just so you know.. I am from Christchurch city, New Zealand.

Kia ora

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On 22/11/2015, 00:59:47, 360watt said:

It isn't about God pre-setting those who will believe and those who don't.

What does determine who will believe and who won't? Calvinism attempts to answer this question, but I'm not sure scripture does actually tell us.

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