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Jim_Alaska

You just can’t make this stuff up.

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14 hours ago, wretched said:

 have a couple of similar stories among my own family but there comes a time (sooner far better than later) when we have to step back and believe the Word that anyone in Christ is a new creature and will certainly believe everything that comes out of the mouth of God. Whether they live it consistently or not is not the issue, they will believe it and they will be chastised when they don't live it. They may fall out of "church" (like there are any real Bible examples of those around anymore, HA) and into a sinful habits for years and years but they never repented of who God truly was and they never denied they were in sin while they were, they felt miserable every time the pleasure stopped while living in sin but anyone who has been around a day knows that the flesh is powerful and so is the adversary.

The problem is that so many are not taught - or taught right. Yes, God supernaturally impresses some things on people (if they're looking to be taught), but have you ever noticed that He seems to work different things with different people at different times? It's not like He downloads everything at once. There is much that is left to Bible study and teaching. If a person is not in a place where they can be taught, they miss so much. "How can they hear without a preacher?" Allowing for people to be untaught and unknowing of areas of God's truth (other than salvation) is not 'convincing them they are saved when they're not.' (Who does that, anyways? No one in the IFB churches I know would do that. They'd all point the person back to the Bible.)

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28 minutes ago, Salyan said:

The problem is that so many are not taught - or taught right. Yes, God supernaturally impresses some things on people (if they're looking to be taught), but have you ever noticed that He seems to work different things with different people at different times? It's not like He downloads everything at once. There is much that is left to Bible study and teaching. If a person is not in a place where they can be taught, they miss so much. "How can they hear without a preacher?" Allowing for people to be untaught and unknowing of areas of God's truth (other than salvation) is not 'convincing them they are saved when they're not.' (Who does that, anyways? No one in the IFB churches I know would do that. They'd all point the person back to the Bible.)

Please read it carefully Salyan, what I am saying has nothing to do with rate of growth, it has to do with state of mind changed by the heart. As a truly born again person, indwelt by the Holy Spirit, sees Gods truth during preaching or study, they will believe it and not deny it. That is what I am saying.

The OP subject woman most assuredly has seen God's truth on female pastors and rejected it. If I am incorrect in this about this OP woman then apologies, but the Bible principle still stands. And I doubt seriously that this is the case with this woman.

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1 hour ago, Ukulelemike said:

I don't know for certain, but I don't think the thief on the cross had doctrinal perfection. None of us will have doctrinal perfection in this life. Yes, we are to take heed to it, yes we are to study to shew ourselves approved of God. There is a reason in the various epistles that Paul was hammering the people over and over again for falling to false doctrines: because Christians can, and do, do it all the time, just as we can fall into sin, even though we are born again new creatures.

Sorry, I know that answering in this way can be difficult, especially as we answer, then answer again, etc, etc. I just wanted to specifically address a couple of the points without taking your remarks out of context.

Again, I in NO WAY excuse error or sin or wrong doctrine. Nor am I specifically assuming anything one way or another about this particular woman-I think at this point, unless we have received any more information from her about her salvation, or lack thereof, that we just have to be careful assuming an unsaved position from so little information. And yes, I agree that information we DO have doesn't look so good. But unless Jim has more information from her, we probably ought to leave it here, pray for her and those she is leading astray that they might get right with the Lord, and then see to our own. I don't know much about the 'American Baptists' but maybe will look a bit into them. Maybe the answer will lie there, or another clue.

Edited to add: The denomination as a whole believes in the ordination of women as being biblical. Interesting interpretation. I can see why some of its members would be in error when the denomination as a whole lifts up something as clearly Unbiblical as being right. Also, the two following 'facts' from the ABC official website say a lot:

8 American Baptists have been called to be Christ’s witnesses for justice and wholeness within a broken society. American Baptists have been led by the Gospel mandates to promote holistic change within society, as witnessed by their advocacy of freed African Americans following the Civil War, the Civil Rights Movement, women in church and societal leadership, ecological responsibility, and many other issues. While not all of one mind as to how to deal with challenges, American Baptists do affirm the need to follow Christ’s example by being actively involved in changing society.

9 American Baptist Churches USA celebrates the racial, cultural and theological diversity witnessed within its membership. American Baptist Churches USA today is the most racially inclusive Protestant body. Represented in our churches are equally diverse worship styles, cultural mores and approaches to Scriptural interpretation. The resulting challenges and opportunities have made us stronger —through fellowship, respect, mutual support and dialog, all based on a belief that unity in Christ involves growth and understanding.

So there you have it. Maybe reason to assume closer to an unsaved stance if she truly follows the example of her chosen denomination. I can see why they might shun doctrines and may be unsaved.

I don't doubt that you make good points here Mike. For the sake of continued back and fro...let me just summarize with the moral of the warnings I am posting:

For the sake of those we witness to and those especially that we love and desperately want to see saved: please give a careful and prayerful presentation of all the Gospel and never press them to prayer a "sinners prayer", as you sow and water seeds, the Spirit will work on them in time (or they will stop allowing you to speak to them on the subject) and they will come to you to ask how to be saved. Satan has taken the Great Commission and cheapened it into nothing but a religious rabbits foot throughout the world and now in IFB churches. Witness to the fake "saved" and don't embrace them as brothers and sisters because they are lost and need salvation. You do them no favors by going along with their pretense.

I will leave it alone after this.

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56 minutes ago, wretched said:

I don't doubt that you make good points here Mike. For the sake of continued back and fro...let me just summarize with the moral of the warnings I am posting:

For the sake of those we witness to and those especially that we love and desperately want to see saved: please give a careful and prayerful presentation of all the Gospel and never press them to prayer a "sinners prayer", as you sow and water seeds, the Spirit will work on them in time (or they will stop allowing you to speak to them on the subject) and they will come to you to ask how to be saved. Satan has taken the Great Commission and cheapened it into nothing but a religious rabbits foot throughout the world and now in IFB churches. Witness to the fake "saved" and don't embrace them as brothers and sisters because they are lost and need salvation. You do them no favors by going along with their pretense.

I will leave it alone after this.

And to this, I agree. Everyone can be an example, even if its a bad example, and this lady pastor is, indeed, a bad example, saved or not. We can surely use this to take heed to ourselves and to the doctrine, and be sure that the gospel we preach is not 'another gospel', which is, of course, no gospel. And here, I will leave it, as well.

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2 hours ago, Ukulelemike said:

I don't know for certain, but I don't think the thief on the cross had doctrinal perfection.

The thief on the cross was not teaching the gospel, was not proclaiming to be a pastor, and was not leading others with false doctrine.  Jesus Himself is the one who told the man "Verily I say unto thee, Today shalt thou be with me in paradise."   Jesus made that pronouncement, He knows the hearts and minds of all people.  We, as humans, and not the Son of God,  do not have the divine ability to pronounce upon anyone that same statement.  We are told to: 

"Preach the word; be instant in season, out of season; reprove, rebuke, exhort with all long suffering and doctrine."  (2nd Timothy 4:2) 

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3 hours ago, Ronda said:

 

The thief on the cross was not teaching the gospel, was not proclaiming to be a pastor, and was not leading others with false doctrine.  Jesus Himself is the one who told the man "Verily I say unto thee, Today shalt thou be with me in paradise."   Jesus made that pronouncement, He knows the hearts and minds of all people.  We, as humans, and not the Son of God,  do not have the divine ability to pronounce upon anyone that same statement.  We are told to: 

"Preach the word; be instant in season, out of season; reprove, rebuke, exhort with all long suffering and doctrine."  (2nd Timothy 4:2

I am leaving alone the previous line of discussion to address what Rhonda is saying here. She is exactly right but I want to mention something else about the thief.

This one example, which by the way, is the only example in Scripture of a person being born again without any evidence of the new birth. DUH, he died shortly thereafter and just as Rhonda said, GOD Almighty was right there knowing his heart. I guarantee you if he had lived, he would have went on to baptism, and displayed the Scriptural evidence of the new birth.

This one example is the text verse for all the easy believism laziness going on IFB churches worldwide. They want to claim to be soulwinning without any real effort or prayfulness and certainly without any real fruit and they site this one and only example as their proof-text over and over without any clue what they are talking about. It is truly sad and it sends people to hell on a shutter.

Back in the day, Christians used to live by Luke 11: 1-13, now we go the easy way without real prayer and power and in the flesh, reporting our own increases and not real ones from God. 

Closing the vent, sorry.

 

Edited by wretched

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4 hours ago, Ronda said:

 

The thief on the cross was not teaching the gospel, was not proclaiming to be a pastor, and was not leading others with false doctrine.  Jesus Himself is the one who told the man "Verily I say unto thee, Today shalt thou be with me in paradise."   Jesus made that pronouncement, He knows the hearts and minds of all people.  We, as humans, and not the Son of God,  do not have the divine ability to pronounce upon anyone that same statement.  We are told to: 

"Preach the word; be instant in season, out of season; reprove, rebuke, exhort with all long suffering and doctrine."  (2nd Timothy 4:2

Indeed, but as far as I know, this woman's teaching of the gospel is not in question, is it? Or did I miss that part? 

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4 hours ago, Ukulelemike said:

Indeed, but as far as I know, this woman's teaching of the gospel is not in question, is it? Or did I miss that part? 

Earlier you stated: "And to this, I agree. Everyone can be an example, even if its a bad example, and this lady pastor is, indeed, a bad example, saved or not. We can surely use this to take heed to ourselves and to the doctrine, and be sure that the gospel we preach is not 'another gospel', which is, of course, no gospel. And here, I will leave it, as well." 

So what exactly are YOU saying? You just said you didn't think this woman's teaching of the gospel was in question. (or did you "miss that part"?) your words, not mine. When earlier you tied in the bad example of this woman preacher, her (lack of) doctrine, and the gospel "we" preach.  

 

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17 hours ago, Ronda said:

Earlier you stated: "And to this, I agree. Everyone can be an example, even if its a bad example, and this lady pastor is, indeed, a bad example, saved or not. We can surely use this to take heed to ourselves and to the doctrine, and be sure that the gospel we preach is not 'another gospel', which is, of course, no gospel. And here, I will leave it, as well." 

So what exactly are YOU saying? You just said you didn't think this woman's teaching of the gospel was in question. (or did you "miss that part"?) your words, not mine. When earlier you tied in the bad example of this woman preacher, her (lack of) doctrine, and the gospel "we" preach.  

 

Other than her comment about doctrine, either because she misunderstands what doctrine is, or because she, like so many others, actually believes that because doctrine divides, and she has an unbiblical view of Christian unity, and so is opposed to it, I have no idea as to what she believes about the gospel, personally.  Now, the ABC organization, as a denomination, states this about the gospel, (specifically about evangelism), Evangelism is the joyous witness of the People of God to the redeeming love of God urging all to repent and to be reconciled to God and each other through faith in Jesus Christ who lived, died, and was raised from the dead,"That is off their website, so its the official 'doctrine' of salvation. Now, its is a bit vague in some respects, ie, what do they believe concerning repentance, or do they consider salvation to be eternally secure, I can't say, but taken at face value, if she believes and teaches the same as the website says, then her gospel, it would appear, is correct, (though I don't know what "and each other" means in the context, maybe that we become tied to one another as brethren in Christ, I don't know). 

But the bottom line is, as we have had this 'conversation' about this woman, not know what she believes on the gospel, outside of her denomination's beliefs, it affords us the opportunity to take heed to ourselves. We have so little to specifically judge this woman on outside of what she had said or done, but let it spur us to judge ourselves, so that we be not judged. Judgment first begins in the house of God. When question of doct4rine comes up, I try to use it as an opportunity to once again remind myself of what I believe and teach, and WHY I believe it. I can't say what she does, with only a couple exceptions, or why, but I do know what I believe. I can't change what she does, save to pray for her, but I CAN let it inspire me to inspect me.

That's all I'm saying. 

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