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Salvation Confusion


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We believe in order to truly pass from death to life a person must repent of their sins.

remission of sins by grace through faith in Gods promise and Christ's blood.

We believe good works do not and can never have any part in salvation.

So what you are saying is salvation doesn't come from doing good, but it does come from quitting bad. This is why the definition of repent is so important. This leads ppl to confusion about what salvation is. If you want to kick me off, kick me off. 

JONAH 3:10

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Many people in the fundamentalist easy believism camp who are followers of cult leaders Jack Hyles and Steve Anderson have an agenda and don't like to be told that the so called "Professions" they have had are false. The fact is, they have led millions to hell, and I have a right to be righteously angry about that.

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I suppose you believe in hard believism? I don't know of any preacher that believes that praying a prayer saves. Just because someone repeats a prayer at the end of soul winning to help them tell God thats what they believe....it doesn't mean the power is in the prayer. Nobody believes that. I believe in once saved always saved and easy believism. It's easy to put your trust on Jesus. It isn't cheap, it is free. I believe baptist should embrace the term you used. It's hard to live a sinless life, Jesus did all the hard part.

Alimantado,

I will admit, we must repent of certain sins to enter the kingdom of heaven. I don't think the majority of you understand where I am coming from, or perhaps you do. Which sin must we repent of? Fornication, drinking, adultery? No, it's idolatry, unbelief, false religion. Wording it, the way OB did, and many churches do, leaves people with a false belief that they must get the sin out of their life to qualify for salvation. Everyone knows that salvation isn't about doing good deeds, which it says on the OB doctrine page, but it also isn't from keeping a bunch of negative commandments. (Don't do this) It angers me to see so many people falling for this LIE. It was hard for me to get saved. Why? Because of all of the junk bad preaching fills your mind with. I'm sorry if my choice of font size offended anyone. I never said the author is saying we must stop sinning, but it is also untrue that it means that we must be willing, or we have to be sorry. Crying and begging has never gotten anyone saved, it's faith alone. There are many good things on the salvation doctrine section, but it doesn't take much to taint the message. 

1. The book of John is the only book that's purpose is: 31But these are written, that ye might believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God; and that believing ye might have life through his name. The word repent is never used. Is the book of John an adequate book to give someone the gospel.

 2. Repent of sin is never used in the KJV. It is used in these. 

a. Mormon bible- Jacob 3:8  O my brethren, I fear that unless ye shall repent of your sins that their skins will be whiter than yours, when ye shall be brought with them before the throne of God. LOL

b. Koran - Except those who repent, have faith and good deeds, those Allah will charge their sins for good deeds. Certainly Allah is most forgiving and merciful." (Qur'an 25:70)

The Mormons teach that you must repent of your sins to be saved. I just elected to go with this verse to show what a racist book it is. I don't claim to have all of the answers, but I am convinced that this is causing major confusion and "repent of your sin" for salvation is an unsaving message that leads one to trust in their own righteousness.

 

 

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Also the book of John was written at a later date than the other Gospels. Repentance is dealt with heavily in the other gospels and some of the epistles..

You can't isolate the Gospel of John from the rest of scripture. Even still, all of the people you see refusing to believe on Christ in the book of John are refusing to repent of some sin(s). There is a reason why Jesus confronted the Woman at the well about her adultery.

Acts 17:30-31 shows repentance also, in fact the book of Acts, which is a book of heavy evangelism, contains quite a few references to repentance in relation to salvation.

 

 

Edited by Jordan Kurecki
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Acts 20:21 is very clear regarding the importance of repentance and the focal point of repentance.

"Testifying both to the Jews, and also to the Greeks, repentance toward God, and faith toward our Lord Jesus Christ." Acts 20:21

This verse also makes it clear Paul preached the Gospel to both Jews and Gentiles, the very same Gospel to both, and those who claim otherwise are in error.

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I will admit, we must repent of certain sins to enter the kingdom of heaven. I don't think the majority of you understand where I am coming from, or perhaps you do. Which sin must we repent of? Fornication, drinking, adultery? No, it's idolatry, unbelief, false religion.

Wording it, the way OB did, and many churches do, leaves people with a false belief that they must get the sin out of their life to qualify for salvation.

Everyone knows that salvation isn't about doing good deeds, which it says on the OB doctrine page, but it also isn't from keeping a bunch of negative commandments. (Don't do this) It angers me to see so many people falling for this LIE. It was hard for me to get saved. Why? Because of all of the junk bad preaching fills your mind with. I'm sorry if my choice of font size offended anyone.

I never said the author is saying we must stop sinning, but it is also untrue that it means that we must be willing, or we have to be sorry.

Crying and begging has never gotten anyone saved, it's faith alone. There are many good things on the salvation doctrine section, but it doesn't take much to taint the message. 

Ok, well the first point I want to make is about what you are claiming the OB statement is saying. I think you believe "repent" means to stop doing something and therefore you think when the OB statement says a person must "repent of their sins" to be saved, logically it is saying that a person must have stopped sinning before they can be saved. You appear to say this in the other thread too.

The thing is, in that other thread, Heartstrings explained that this is not at all what people here mean when they something like 'repent of sin' or 'turn from sin'. And when he explained it, you were cool with it. Yet now we have you trying to make exactly the same point all over again as if that conservation never happened.

Moreover, in the text I've highlighted in red you say that you are not claiming that the OB statement declares we have to stop sinning to be saved. Yet not only does your original post seem to make that accusation but you appear to repeat the accusation just a few lines earlier in the paragraph above (highlighted in blue). Here again:

You: "Wording it, the way OB did, and many churches do, leaves people with a false belief that they must get the sin out of their life to qualify for salvation."

You again: "I never said the author is saying we must stop sinning..."

Ok, so what does the phrase "get the sin out of their life to qualify for salvation" mean if it doesn't mean stop sinning? Or are you trying to make the distinction that OB is saying it unwittingly? If so, then saying something unwittingly is still saying it, so we're still back to the question: are you saying OB claims we must stop sinning to be saved or not?

You say:

"I never said the author is saying we must stop sinning, but it is also untrue that it means that we must be willing, or we have to be sorry."

So are you claiming that OB's statement--"a person must repent of their sins"--also can't possibly mean rejecting sin in principle, desiring to stop sinning, desiring to follow God instead of a life of sin etc etc, however you want to phrase it? Very well, if the phrase means neither stopping sinning nor desiring to no longer sin and no longer be against God, then what do you say it does mean? According to you, what is OB's statement really saying?

Second point I want to make is to do with your own claim about what we need to repent of:

"I will admit, we must repent of certain sins to enter the kingdom of heaven... Which sin must we repent of? ... idolatry, unbelief, false religion."

Now, if we accept your definition of repentance as 'stopping doing stuff', consistent with your interpretation of 'repent of sin' as 'stopping doing sin', then it follows that what you are saying here is that we must have successfully stopped 'doing' any idolatry, unbelief or false religion before we can be saved. In other words, a person must not have an ounce of unbelief or uncertainty, they must be nothing less than 100% faithful to God and not ever be tempted or swayed by other things, and they must be 100% correct on all doctrine. Once they have achieved all those things, they can be saved. And should a 'saved' person ever experience doubt or uncertainty, or take their eyes off God even for a moment, or turn out to be doctrinally wrong, presumably they must actually have been unsaved all along.

Is that your view? It sounds like it if we accept your definition of repentance. I'm unsaved according to that definition.

Edited by Alimantado
One 'and' instead of an 'or' corrected.
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2 Corinthians 6:14 (KJV) 14 Be ye not unequally yoked together with unbelievers: for what fellowship hath righteousness with unrighteousness? and what communion hath light with darkness?

2 Corinthians 6:15 (KJV) 15 And what concord hath Christ with Belial? or what part hath he that believeth with an infidel?

2 Corinthians 6:16 (KJV) 16 And what agreement hath the temple of God with idols? for ye are the temple of the living God; as God hath said, I will dwell in them, and walk in [them]; and I will be their God, and they shall be my people.

2 Corinthians 6:17 (KJV) 17 Wherefore come out from among them, and be ye separate, saith the Lord, and touch not the unclean [thing]; and I will receive you,

2 Corinthians 6:18 (KJV) 18 And will be a Father unto you, and ye shall be my sons and daughters, saith the Lord Almighty.

 

Sure looks like some of the Corinthians had to do some repenting, or they would not be sons and daughters.  Of interest, although they are identified as saints and brethren by the Apostle Paul, they still are not sons and daughters.  God said He would not even be a Father to them until they turned from their present walk.

 

 

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Repent means - to change (mind)   So yes it is true, every person that has ever been saved has repented of something....YOU HAVE TO. Why? Because we can't believe on Jesus if we believe in Muhammad. We can't believe on Jesus if we are trusting in our own works. We can't trust in Jesus if we don't believe in God. We must repent of all of those things to be saved. BUT...it doesn't mean all sin....or even have a change of mind toward all sin like you said. I truly believe OB means this (your quote) desiring to stop sinning, desiring to follow God instead of a life of sin. I don't believe this is correct either. 

What must we do to be saved? Beleive on the lord Jesus Christ. I honestly believe almost all of the people on OB believe this, but we aren't doing that justice by telling people we must also repent of sin. It leads to confusion mostly because of confusion about what the word means. When we believe on Christ we repent (change our mind) about what salvation is (faith). We don't have to have a complete change of mind toward sin. When we grow in the lord and realize that we aren't in bondage to sin because we are saved eternally by what Jesus did for us....that is what leads us to lead a more pleasing life to God. Our faith grows in our walk with Jesus through hearing and reading the word. 

 

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2 Corinthians 6:14 (KJV) 14 Be ye not unequally yoked together with unbelievers: for what fellowship hath righteousness with unrighteousness? and what communion hath light with darkness?

2 Corinthians 6:15 (KJV) 15 And what concord hath Christ with Belial? or what part hath he that believeth with an infidel?

2 Corinthians 6:16 (KJV) 16 And what agreement hath the temple of God with idols? for ye are the temple of the living God; as God hath said, I will dwell in them, and walk in [them]; and I will be their God, and they shall be my people.

2 Corinthians 6:17 (KJV) 17 Wherefore come out from among them, and be ye separate, saith the Lord, and touch not the unclean [thing]; and I will receive you,

2 Corinthians 6:18 (KJV) 18 And will be a Father unto you, and ye shall be my sons and daughters, saith the Lord Almighty.

 

Sure looks like some of the Corinthians had to do some repenting, or they would not be sons and daughters.  Of interest, although they are identified as saints and brethren by the Apostle Paul, they still are not sons and daughters.  God said He would not even be a Father to them until they turned from their present walk.

 

 

Is this written to the saved or unsaved?

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Among many denominations today, there is a rising belief that repentance is nothing more than a change of mind about who God is. In other words, the general consensus is that when God tells us to "Repent" it only involves a change of mind.

But is that what repentance is? Or is it something more? I submit that it is something more.

Let's look at it in this way. Suppose I wanted to to to McDonalds to buy a Filet-O-Fish. I ask my wife to drive me as I don't have a license. Half-way there, I have a change of mind and decide I would rather have a Meatball Sub from Subway. Now, if I had a change of mind, would I continue to McDonalds?

Of course not!

I would tell my wife to drive to the Subway instead.

Repentance is a change of mind that results in a change of action.

We see this in the book of Revelation. In Chapter two, we read:

Revelation 2:21 And I gave her space to repent of her fornication; and she repented not.

Now, was God saying to have a change of mind about her fornication, but to continue in that direction?

Absolutely not!  God wanted her to turn from her sinful ways.

And the very next verse reveals that God does not just want a change of mind...

Revelation 2:22 Behold, I will cast her into a bed, and them that commit adultery with her into great tribulation, except they repent of their deeds.

He wants a change of action as well. He wanted those in allegiance with the woman to repent of their deeds... their actions.

If one believes that repentance is merely a change of mind about who God is, that one is deceived into believing a lie.

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Repent means - to change (mind). So yes it is true, every person that has ever been saved has repented of something....YOU HAVE TO. Why? Because we can't believe on Jesus if we believe in Muhammad. We can't believe on Jesus if we are trusting in our own works. We can't trust in Jesus if we don't believe in God. We must repent of all of those things to be saved. BUT...it doesn't mean all sin....or even have a change of mind toward all sin like you said. I truly believe OB means this (your quote) desiring to stop sinning, desiring to follow God instead of a life of sin. I don't believe this is correct either. 

I don't believe we have to repent of "all sin". I think when the average person gets saved there are a multitude of sinful acts they get remission for that they don't even recognise as sinful acts--some perhaps which they may not recognise as sin before they die. In fact, it's implicit in the idea of having faith in a redeemer that we can rely on that redeemer to wash us of our sins even if we fail to recognise all that is sin. So in that bit you quoted, I certainly wasn't saying that desiring to stop sinning meant a capacity to identify every specific sinful act that one has ever committed and consciously reject each and every one. What I meant by "desiring to follow God instead of a life of sin" was that a person recognises that there is such a thing a sin--as doing things that violate God's will--and they know they want to do God's will rather than violate it, i.e. they wish to follow God. When they put their faith in God's grace and Jesus' work on the cross to pay for their sins, they do so because they want to follow Christ, not just because they want to get away with it (although I'm not sure we can deny an element of self-interest).

What must we do to be saved? Beleive on the lord Jesus Christ. I honestly believe almost all of the people on OB believe this, but we aren't doing that justice by telling people we must also repent of sin. It leads to confusion mostly because of confusion about what the word means. When we believe on Christ we repent (change our mind) about what salvation is (faith). We don't have to have a complete change of mind toward sin. When we grow in the lord and realize that we aren't in bondage to sin because we are saved eternally by what Jesus did for us....that is what leads us to lead a more pleasing life to God. Our faith grows in our walk with Jesus through hearing and reading the word.

Let's say I become convinced that Jesus is God, that he died on the cross and rose again, paying for our sins in so doing, and that we can be saved by believing on this work. Let's say I respond by saying: "What an idiot! I really hate God and I want to do whatever I can to grieve him. But I also want to get away with it and I've become convinced that Jesus is Lord, which means I might not get away with it. But I'm also convinced that Jesus has paid for my sins on the cross and that he offers forgiveness if I'll only accept it. Well, though I think he's an idiot for doing that, I'll take it thank you very much! That way I can carry on doing my favourite hobby--hating God--and there'll be no comeback. Bonus!"

In that scenario, I've "changed my mind" and come to believe that Jesus is God--is Lord--and that his work on the cross saves me from my sins. I'm also still totally against God and pro sin. Yet you say that bit doesn't matter, i.e. that the hypothetical "me" above would be saved.

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Before anything happens to anyone, they must hear the Gospel clearly from the Word, the seed has to be planted. Without the Scriptures in their ears, the Spirit will not convict.

With the heart man believeth unto righteousness and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation.

It is a Spirit induced change of heart that cannot be explained by mechanics alone. But when it does happen all things are new, the blinders lifted and they receive more and more truth as time goes by like a sponge (some faster than others). This Spirit generated change of heart does create a Spirit generated change in action as the new believer hears more and more milk from the Word.

Saints do succumb to sin repeatedly after salvation but they will never, ever turn to different gods or beliefs after salvation. That is what Hebrews 6 teaches quite clearly IMO.

Noone saved will turn to humanism, paganism, idolatry, islam, budda, the pope, etc...EVER. It is quite impossible so if you have someone in this situation, keep witnessing to them because they never got saved to begin with. They got sold a rabbit's foot prayer.

 

 

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No one saved will EVER turn to another religion? 

Thats not supporting being saved without works. Dont confuse the root of salvation with the fruit of salvation or justification with sanctification.

I guess i was never saved seeing i tried new age beliefs 8 years after calling to jesus for salvation. 

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No one saved will EVER turn to another religion? 

Thats not supporting being saved without works. Dont confuse the root of salvation with the fruit of salvation or justification with sanctification.

I guess i was never saved seeing i tried new age beliefs 8 years after calling to jesus for salvation. 

You are correct, you were not saved before you did that my friend, but a seed was planted. And this concept is certainly supported 100% by Scripture.

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Well i am guessing you mean 'perseverance of the saints' 

My knowledge of this is that it doesn't really mean 'once saved always saved' but that those who have been chosen for eternal life WILL do good works, continue in holiness etc..

Well..  David didnt do that.  Sure, he returned to the faith, but he did grievous sins. Murder and adultery.

 

I reject calvinism on probably all points. perseverance of the saints should really be: preservation of the saved if it is going to mean 'once saved always saved' 

 

Aside from this, even if it wasnt salvation at 13 when i received it, I surely have believed now.

Scripturally tho: what of john 3:16, 5:24, 10:28 etc?  That's saved, done, dusted.  

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A saved person can commit any sin an unsaved person can commit. A saved person can backslide and get caught up in some false religion just the same as a lost person can get caught up in such. The difference is, for the saved person the Holy Ghost will be working from within to restore them, turning them from error back to truth.

It shouldn't be, but especially here in America this isn't all that uncommon.

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Many people in the fundamentalist easy believism camp who are followers of cult leaders Jack Hyles and Steve Anderson have an agenda and don't like to be told that the so called "Professions" they have had are false. The fact is, they have led millions to hell, and I have a right to be righteously angry about that.

I would say if the are easy believists they are not fundamentalists.

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A biblical definition of 'repent'

Genesis 6:5  And GOD saw that the wickedness of man was great in the earth, and that every imagination of the thoughts of his heart was only evil continually. 6 ¶  And it repented the LORD that he had made man on the earth, and it grieved him at his heart.

 

 

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Is it hard to believe in Jesus? 

Wasnt for the publican who 'smote his chest and said God have mercy on me a sinner'

He was convicted and responded by calling for mercy.

This is easy.

What is hard about it?

If the consequence of not believing till you die is hell, why would Jesus make it not easy to believe?

Yes there are false professions, but again dont confuse the root of believing, faith with the fruit of salvation  

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A saved person can commit any sin an unsaved person can commit. A saved person can backslide and get caught up in some false religion just the same as a lost person can get caught up in such. The difference is, for the saved person the Holy Ghost will be working from within to restore them, turning them from error back to truth.

It shouldn't be, but especially here in America this isn't all that uncommon.

 

Well the emerging church movement and rick warren types would certainly agree but this cannot be found in the Bible. The Bible describes it as quite impossible for a born again Christian to blaspheme the Spirit. What you are describing here would be crucifying to themselves the Son of God afresh, and putting Him to an open shame. Hebrews 6 is no mystery and very clear on this subject.

This kind of thinking is certainly in agreement with false professions though. Not trying to one up anyone but we need to get busy with witnessing to people who got "saved" without any knowledge of Hell, Judgement or Condemnation.

About the only 2 reasonable qualifiers we have to know who is a brother or sister in Christ is this and professing Him before men with Baptism. Why should we care you ask? So next time someone stops you while witnessing and says they are already born again, we will ask the right questions to make sure before we move on.

People like this are all over the place thanks to satan and his emerging church which he started as an answer to the fundamental movement years ago.

Just as he did with the catholic church in the 3rd century as an answer to the spread of the real Gospel by real Christians. It is a phony imitation of Bible Christianity.

Anyone who was saved 20-30 years ago used to know this stuff, we have just forgotten it. Oh and BTW: the reason we have forgotten is because we are lured away from the Word and into reading and considering every watered down idea by these charlatans.

We do these false professors no justice by assuring them they are saved simply because they said the repeat after me prayers. If there was no change then there was no regeneration of the Spirit. Read the parable of the sower for clues into this.

Edited by wretched
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A person can only blaspheme the Holy Spirit by refusing to be born again in Christ. A saved person cannot do that since they are already born again.

Scripture does not say there are certain sins a saved person can never commit. There are those who believe once saved a Christian can't commit sin. Some actually believe they are living in perfect holiness, others simply call "little sins" mistakes or some other trivial word rather than acknowledge their sins for what they are. This isn't biblical. What is biblical is saved people sin, as First John is very clear about.

Just because a person is saved doesn't mean they are immediately mature in the faith and can't be led astray, make mistakes or backslide into religious folly.

One thing that would greatly help prevent such would be if we (Christians) would actually disciple other Christians, befriend Christians, help Christians. Instead, even in many of the "better" churches, Christians tend to form cliques which they are reluctant to let others into or they have their "church friends" while at church and worldly friends the rest of the time.

This leaves us with many born again Christians weak in the faith, slow to mature, left in infancy, or even pushed away.

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A person can only blaspheme the Holy Spirit by refusing to be born again in Christ. A saved person cannot do that since they are already born again.

Scripture does not say there are certain sins a saved person can never commit. There are those who believe once saved a Christian can't commit sin. Some actually believe they are living in perfect holiness, others simply call "little sins" mistakes or some other trivial word rather than acknowledge their sins for what they are. This isn't biblical. What is biblical is saved people sin, as First John is very clear about.

Just because a person is saved doesn't mean they are immediately mature in the faith and can't be led astray, make mistakes or backslide into religious folly.

One thing that would greatly help prevent such would be if we (Christians) would actually disciple other Christians, befriend Christians, help Christians. Instead, even in many of the "better" churches, Christians tend to form cliques which they are reluctant to let others into or they have their "church friends" while at church and worldly friends the rest of the time.

This leaves us with many born again Christians weak in the faith, slow to mature, left in infancy, or even pushed away.

Your first line answered the issue John?

So a person hears the Gospel, is supposedly convicted by the Holy Spirit, supposedly repents from any ideas of God they had before to supposedly trust in the Living, One True God.

Later on however, repents from the Living, One True God to trust some other false god....was truly BORN AGAIN while all this occurred?

Come on John, the gifts and calling of God are without repentance (on either side)

Edited by wretched
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Your first line answered the issue John?

So a person hears the Gospel, is supposedly convicted by the Holy Spirit, supposedly repents from any ideas of God they had before to supposedly trust in the Living, One True God.

Later on however, repents from the Living, One True God to trust some other false god....was truly BORN AGAIN while all this occurred?

Come on John, the gifts and calling of God are without repentance (on either side)

What if the other false god is money, prestige, work pressures, technology, their family, their self? Are you saying that it's impossible for a saved Christian to commit the sin of idolatry?

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It's not uncommon for a saved person to find themselves in very difficult times and believe God has abandoned them, or to think perhaps more is needed, and to turn to strange things to find help. That may take the form of making money their idol, astrology, horoscopes, or even thinking maybe "they" are right and all/some/most gods are one and the same and get caught up looking for a way to draw on God by pursuing some false religion ideas.

Those I've had personal experience with are always restored to a right walk with God. Their testimonies are always very similar; of having felt very confused during that time, unfocused, having felt conviction but either not recognizing it at the time or thinking it just their own worries. Yet at some point the indwelling Spirit gets through to them, they come to see the great error of their ways, they repent and restored and typically have a great hunger for the things of God and the Lord graciously has someone in or come into their lives at that point who will disciple them and set their feet firmly on the path of righteousness.

Meanwhile, the unsaved who get caught up in those things, including those who "tried" Christianity, tend to either remain caught up in those things or dive in further.

The idea a saved person can't get caught up in some false church, try some false ways, latch onto something ungodly, or such things is no different than those who claim a saved person can't commit suicide, get drunk, do drugs, carry on an affair, get divorced, or commit other sins that some claim no saved person can commit.

Every saved person matures at a different pace, a different rate than others. Some are well discipled, some are not discipled at all. Some get into the Word themselves and begin to grow, some find confusion trying that. Some are freed from some sins while others are not instantly freed from the same sins. Some get caught up in "big" sins, others never commit another "big" sin.

Being born again in Christ doesn't make anyone perfect or incapable of falling into sin, even the sin of thinking some false religion may have something right.

We should be thankful our God doesn't leave us or forsake us but rather works in our lives to free us from sinful bondage and set us aright with Him.

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Those who use the term "easy believism" are referring to the practice of presenting a watered down message and then prodding or pushing someone to repeat a "sinners prayer" and telling them that's all they have to do to be sure of heaven.

Easy believism is really thought of in 2 different ways. I've looked it up and noticed this when conversating. 1. Watered down gospel. 2. People also use it to critisize Baptist...because we don't have 7 steps of salvation like the Church of Christ "Cambellites". Another good one is "cheap grace."....as if their righteousness makes it expensive.

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I think too many christians who think they are embracing once saved always saved are actually embracing the calvinist idea that a saved person WILL do good works, will not fall away.. will continue in holiness etc..

A saved person does have the Holy Spirit inside them who will discipline them and teach them. That is true. Therefore when they do sin-- He will prompt them to remain in close relationship.. 

But that doesn't mean they WON'T sin.  Or that they won't ever try a different belief, or murder, or commit adultery etc..  it means if they do so.. the Holy Spirit will convict them and discipline them.  

Not that they wont do they sins to begin with.

There are many who believe unlike calvinism that you do call for salvation.. but then take on the teaching of perserverance of the saints from calvinism and say that evidence of salvation is a completely changed life.. from the beginning to the end.  

It is taking 'he who endureth to the end will be saved' right out of context.

 

 

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I think too many christians who think they are embracing once saved always saved are actually embracing the calvinist idea that a saved person WILL do good works, will not fall away.. will continue in holiness etc..

I know of no one who believes that., although there will be some, no doubt.  We know that some will  backslide and fall in to error, but if we confess our sins he will forgive us our sins,

A saved person does have the Holy Spirit inside them who will discipline them and teach them. That is true. Therefore when they do sin-- He will prompt them to remain in close relationship.. 

But that doesn't mean they WON'T sin.  Or that they won't ever try a different belief, or murder, or commit adultery etc..  it means if they do so.. the Holy Spirit will convict them and discipline them.  

Not that they wont do they sins to begin with.

Agreed both points

There are many who believe unlike calvinism that you do call for salvation.. but then take on the teaching of perserverance of the saints from calvinism and say that evidence of salvation is a completely changed life.. from the beginning to the end.  

I don't know what you mean

It is taking 'he who endureth to the end will be saved' right out of contexct

 

 

 

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It is true that one can put all their time and effort into fleshly pursuits and still be saved but hardly the same thing that is being discussed right now. Where your treasure is (whether time, money or effort) that is where your heart is but those passages are not discussing rejecting Jesus AFTER you got saved.

Even backslidden a Christian will still know who the real God is or they never were born again to begin with. That is the point folks. Some of you folks are interjecting an apple into an orange discussion.

For some reason some don't get it but let me clarify a little: I am not talking about sin. I am talking about repentance and believing the Gospel. If actually accomplished by the Spirit, no one repents from it back to a false religion. No matter how much we want to think so because they are confused or whatever, they are not confused folks, they are lost.

Now, nothing says they cannot be saved later so I recommend you get the matter settled for sure if you are in that boat.

I have known multiple 1000s of saved people (serving and backslidden) and have never run across this kind of silly discussion before.

 

 

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I would agree with wretched.  I believe it is impossible for a saved person to totally deny God.  Jeremiah tried it, but couldn't.

Jeremiah 20:9 (KJV) 9 Then I said, I will not make mention of him, nor speak any more in his name. But [his word] was in mine heart as a burning fire shut up in my bones, and I was weary with forbearing, and I could not [stay].

How much more impossible is it for the saved, who, when disobedient, are chastened by the Lord?  How much more difficult to deny a God who promised to never leave, nor forsake him/her?  How utterly impossible, for one who has the seal of the Spirit of the living God, to walk away from God completely.

 

Edited to add:  If one is able to walk away, embracing the world and its sinful pleasures with no conviction whatsoever, that one never truly had the Spirit of God abiding in him/her to begin with.

1 John 2:19 (KJV) 19 They went out from us, but they were not of us; for if they had been of us, they would [no doubt] have continued with us: but [they went out], that they might be made manifest that they were not all of us.

Edited by Standing Firm In Christ
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