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Matthew24

After the Tribulation

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Wow, so much going on here.

Most regulars know I am the one mod who holds to a post-trib/pre-wrath position. However, I repudiate Anderson and his manners, the same way I would do so with Ruckman-I might agree in doctrine with some things they believe, but their manners and other beliefs I disagree with, and as such I wouldn't align myself with them in any of the things I agree on.

 That being said, I disagree with the idea that the entire tribulation period is all the wrath of God falling on the world. In fact, that the Antichrist and the false prophet and the dragon, Satan, are given almost free reign during the major portion of it, (though clearly ultimately subdued by the Lord), tells me that the Lord is sending tribulation, not wrath, upon the earth. Part of what we see happening, particularly in the trumpets, are demonic activity, (the locusts, four angels chained in the Euphrates), as well as God's judgments upon the earth and its rulers, (hail and fire mingled with bold, natural disasters, etc.), things, I think, that mankind will assume are natural things, great disasters, but not of God directly. And these things are designed to elicit repentance among those on earth. However when God's wrath falls, the vials of wrath, they come quickly, one after another, designed to kill and destroy many, followed quickly by the return of Christ to earth to destroy the nations of the world seeking to destroy Jerusalem. 

Notice what is said when the 7th trumpet sounds: "And the seventh angel sounded; and there were great voices in heaven, saying, The kingdoms of this world are become the kingdoms of our Lord, and of his Christ; and he shall reign for ever and ever. And the four and twenty elders, which sat before God on their seats, fell upon their faces, and worshipped God, Saying, We give thee thanks, O Lord God Almighty, which art, and wast, and art to come; because thou hast taken to thee thy great power, and hast reigned. And the nations were angry, and thy wrath is come, and the time of the dead, that they should be judged, and that thou shouldest give reward unto thy servants the prophets, and to the saints, and them that fear thy name, small and great; and shouldest destroy them which destroy the earth." (Rev 11:15-18)

So now we see, the time of wrath was not come, (the wrath was not already in progress, it comes after the seventh trumpet), AND the time for the judging of the dead, (the lost), and rewarding of the saints was come now. And it is after this, in rev 14, that we see Jesus on the cloud reaping the harvest of the earth-the Rapture. And immediately after that, the VINE of the earth is reaped and gathered into the winepress of the wrath of God.

It seems to me such a clear separation here.

I also don't see the timing of the rapture as being such a big deal as to call anyone who disagrees an apostate-that word tends to get thrown around way too easily today. That the Lord is coming in the clouds to take His people back, and that He is also coming again as reigning King are the important things. He will sort out the details Himself. If I am wrong, I am more than happy to be received out before it occurs-if I am wrong, I have no doubt that He will be able to make those who believe otherwise to be able to handle the change just fine. I don't see it as a reason to separate. I don't even fight over it anymore-if it comes up I am happy to discuss it, but if not, I let it lie.

As for not knowing the time, I suspect the way things will occur, we could be into the process before many realize it. There will be no headlines saying "The Great Tribulation has started today!" So, the Bible says we will know the times and the seasons, just not the day nor the hour. I suspect we will see it coming, but won't know exactly when. But it also says, in 1Thes 5: "But of the times and the seasons, brethren, ye have no need that I write unto you. For yourselves know perfectly that the day of the Lord so cometh as a thief in the night. For when they shall say, Peace and safety; then sudden destruction cometh upon them, as travail upon a woman with child; and they shall not escape. But ye, brethren, are not in darkness, that that day should overtake you as a thief. Ye are all the children of light, and the children of the day: we are not of the night, nor of darkness." 

As children of the light, we aren't to be overtaken by surprise when the Lord comes-we won't know the exact time and day, but we WILL be aware of His soon coming, and in a more sure way than we think we are today. Today we look at things and say, "Oh, He's coming soon!" but really, He could wait another 100 years if He so chose. BUT, once we see the things literally coming true, and our eyes are opened by the Lord to see that they are, indeed, the things written of, THEN we will say of assurety, "Yes, He is coming SOON!" and know whereof we speak.

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As children of the light, we aren't to be overtaken by surprise when the Lord comes-we won't know the exact time and day, but we WILL be aware of His soon coming, and in a more sure way than we think we are today. Today we look at things and say, "Oh, He's coming soon!" but really, He could wait another 100 years if He so chose. BUT, once we see the things literally coming true, and our eyes are opened by the Lord to see that they are, indeed, the things written of, THEN we will say of assurety, "Yes, He is coming SOON!" and know whereof we speak.

This is the point made earlier in this thread Mike, your idea here is not Scriptural IMO and we will not be here for the clear cut seals that will be unmistakable as pretty well described throughout Scripture. Your idea certainly takes away any "unawares" and "thief in the night" mentions in Scripture.

Allot of contingent speculation in your post. Sounds well researched but is contingent on so many variables. When a Pre trib "expert" analyses like you did, they cover all the ground as you and yours but with a pre trib outcome. The only thing that is not a variable is the fact that when it occurs noone will be expecting it. Even the people who keep pushing silly dates will be just as surprised as the rest. This negates all these contingent speculations IMO.

Contingent speculation in the King's English means: Your big guesses are dependent on whether your leading guesses are accurate.

 

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This is the point made earlier in this thread Mike, your idea here is not Scriptural IMO and we will not be here for the clear cut seals that will be unmistakable as pretty well described throughout Scripture. Your idea certainly takes away any "unawares" and "thief in the night" mentions in Scripture.

Allot of contingent speculation in your post. Sounds well researched but is contingent on so many variables. When a Pre trib "expert" analyses like you did, they cover all the ground as you and yours but with a pre trib outcome. The only thing that is not a variable is the fact that when it occurs noone will be expecting it. Even the people who keep pushing silly dates will be just as surprised as the rest. This negates all these contingent speculations IMO.

Contingent speculation in the King's English means: Your big guesses are dependent on whether your leading guesses are accurate.

 

1Thes 5: "But of the times and the seasons, brethren, ye have no need that I write unto you. For yourselves know perfectly that the day of the Lord so cometh as a thief in the night. For when they shall say, Peace and safety; then sudden destruction cometh upon them, as travail upon a woman with child; and they shall not escape. But ye, brethren, are not in darkness, that that day should overtake you as a thief. Ye are all the children of light, and the children of the day: we are not of the night, nor of darkness."

Clearly, it is absolutely scriptural. We are not children of darkness, but of light.

As for pre-trib 'experts', no, they actually read a lot into things that aren't there. For instance, time and again I read how 1Thes 4 is 'proof' for a pre-trib rapture, and I say, No, it is proof of a rapture-but nothing about timing. I see Rev 14 ignored time and again, while it is the ONLY clear scripture that shows Jesus actually reaping from the earth.

As for the seals, these are not events in the timeline, as it were, but more of a preview of coming attractions, unless there is a wrath poured out at the beginning, and one at the end-two wraths? No, I believe the seals are an overview of what is about to happen, and the events actually begin at the trumpets.

Edited by Ukulelemike

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1Thes 5: "But of the times and the seasons, brethren, ye have no need that I write unto you. For yourselves know perfectly that the day of the Lord so cometh as a thief in the night. For when they shall say, Peace and safety; then sudden destruction cometh upon them, as travail upon a woman with child; and they shall not escape. But ye, brethren, are not in darkness, that that day should overtake you as a thief. Ye are all the children of light, and the children of the day: we are not of the night, nor of darkness."

Clearly, it is absolutely scriptural. We are not children of darkness, but of light.

As for pre-trib 'experts', no, they actually read a lot into things that aren't there. For instance, time and again I read how 1Thes 4 is 'proof' for a pre-trib rapture, and I say, No, it is proof of a rapture-but nothing about timing. I see Rev 14 ignored time and again, while it is the ONLY clear scripture that shows Jesus actually reaping from the earth.

As for the seals, these are not events in the timeline, as it were, but more of a preview of coming attractions, unless there is a wrath poured out at the beginning, and one at the end-two wraths? No, I believe the seals are an overview of what is about to happen, and the events actually begin at the trumpets.

Sorry Mike, you are out of context with the children of light reference. This passage is in reference to remaining vigilant and always looking for His return in the clouds, check v 10, those asleep are also saved.

Reread my post above quoting Matt and Luke. NOONE will know. Your entire idea here is just wrong friend, sorry

Edited by wretched

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Pretrib Believers are looking for Jesus. BTW, same as Islam and Jews....why wouldn't they take the mark? I don't believe the elect will, but the many unsaved "Christians" who blindly follow Hollywood will *BTW I have heard Anderson say that the elect will not be deceived...so obviously, he is contradicting himself, or you misunderstood.  I am looking for the antichrist first and the falling away. Why is it bad that Anderson hates Pretrib? lol. The elect are the saved. The thought of blessing a nation, that to become a citizen, one must denounce Jesus, is simply unbelievable. You think I am misguided(crazy) because I don't believe we should bless a nation who teaches Jesus was the son of a roman soldier named Pantera. Anderson believes all people are the same and wants to see all Jews saved. I wouldn't call anyone a false teacher who is 100% right on the gospel.

Matthew 24,

In the video Pastor Anderson plainly states that the same Messiah that the Muslims, Buddhists, and Jews look for is the same Messiah that the pre-tribulation rapture believers look for. And you say the same thing. This is a very serious accusation. It is also a false accusation and a slander.

 

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No...once again, you only hear what you want. THE ELECT WILL NOT BE DECEIVED. You say Jesus can come at any moment, same as jews and muslims. The "Christians" that have never read their bible will be deceived.

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I liked this documentary.  I watched it almost a month ago.  i actually enjoy listening to him (although I don't agree with everything he says) but his "America Great Babylon" movie on youtube is what started me back to reading and listening to the scriptures online and pulled me out of practicing paganism (Thank you Jesus that's over).  I know that he offends many but I enjoy his sermons. 

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Matthew24

In my estimation, you, and Pastor Anderson, are deceived in  many areas. Not only is your doctrine in error, but your total lack of civility is apalling. If one does not agree with you both you and pastor Anderson call them apostates without scriptural reasoning.

 

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No...once again, you only hear what you want. THE ELECT WILL NOT BE DECEIVED. You say Jesus can come at any moment, same as jews and muslims. The "Christians" that have never read their bible will be deceived.

I heard Pastor anderson say the same thing, several times, and you say the same thing several times,we are not deaf. We know exactly what you are saying. You, and pastor Anderson are deceived in many areas: both doctrinally and spiritually.

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I

I heard Pastor anderson say the same thing, several times, and you say the same thing several times,we are not deaf. We know exactly what you are saying. You, and pastor Anderson are deceived in many areas: both doctrinally and spiritually.

I don't think you are understanding what I mean when I say the elect will NOT BE DECEIVED. I am not talking about the elect will all believe in a post trib rapture. Matthew 24:24. For there shall arise false christs, and false prophets, and shall shew great signs and wonders: insomuch that, if it were possible, they shall deceive the very elect. All I am saying is that the people that are saved will not be deceived and take the mark. I AM NOT SAYING EVERYONE THAT TEACHES OR BELIEVES PRETRIB ARE APOSTATE. I apologize for the misunderstanding, I wasn't being clear. I don't speak for Anderson but from listening to him a ton, I would say he would agree with what I am saying. 

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I would say there are some preachers that know the truth but opt to teach the lie. It isn't popular. "God isn't a wife beater" lol....but wait a minute, does he scourge every son he recieves? The misconception lies in thinking the tribulation is God's wrath, which isn't in the bible. Directly after Jesus returns he pours out wrath(rev. 6-7). We aren't appointed to wrath. The bible never says we aren't appointed to tribulation or affliction. WATCH.

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Sorry Mike, you are out of context with the children of light reference. This passage is in reference to remaining vigilant and always looking for His return in the clouds, check v 10, those asleep are also saved.

Reread my post above quoting Matt and Luke. NOONE will know. Your entire idea here is just wrong friend, sorry

This is referencing His return for His people, the same thing referenced in 1Thes 4, the rapture. See, the Thessalonian church was afraid the rapture had already occurred and the tribulation had begun, but Paul first assured them of the reality of the rapture, then told them they didn't need to fear, because, though His coming would be as a thief, they would not be caught unawares because they were children of the day-they KNEW He was coming. If it is referencing His return at the end of the tribulation as King, (Rev 19), then there's no point mentioning it because in that case, whether pre-trib or pre-wrath, we will already be with Him and return with Him in glory. So it makes no sense to tell them that they won't be caught unaware, because they, we, will be WITH Him when He returns. We will return with Him.

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Reread my post above quoting Matt and Luke. NOONE will know. Your entire idea here is just wrong friend, sorry

The "big shot" is Steven Anderson who pastors Faithful Word Baptist Church ---->who has won 1000's to the Lord not only in the Phoenix area, but online as well. BTW, I wouldn't suggest a pretribber to take verses out of Matther 24, Luke 21, or Mark 13. Why? These are parallel passages that in 2 of them, directly say Jesus comes After the Tribulation. That is why pretribbers cling to 1 Thess. 4. Why? It doesn't mention the timing....but guess what? It sounds just like all of the other rapture passages in Matt, Mark, Luke, Rev6, Rev14. HE WILL COME IN THE CLOUDS, WITH POWER, AND GLORY< AND EVERY EYE SHALL SEE HIM. HOLLYWOOD IS WRONG!

If you take the bible literally it says, we will not know the day or hour, but it explicitly says we know the time and seasons. We aren't in darkness.

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Zechariah 14:4 And his feet shall stand in that day upon the mount of Olives, which is before Jerusalem on the east, and the mount of Olives shall cleave in the midst thereof toward the east and toward the west, and there shall be a very great valley; and half of the mountain shall remove toward the north, and half of it toward the south.

1 Thessalonians 4:16-17 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first: Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.

Two different events.  1 Thessalonians 4 will happen first.  Why?  Because we rise to meet the Lord in the air.  We don't meet Him on the Earth.  The then takes us to His Father's House as promised in John 14:1-3.  While we are with Him at the Father's House, the bowls of wrath will be poured out on the Earth.  After all is completed concerning God's wrath on mankind, Jesus will return and set up His millennial Kingdom. 

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As for pre-trib 'experts', no, they actually read a lot into things that aren't there. For instance, time and again I read how 1Thes 4 is 'proof' for a pre-trib rapture, and I say, No, it is proof of a rapture-but nothing about timing. I see Rev 14 ignored time and again, while it is the ONLY clear scripture that shows Jesus actually reaping from the earth.

As a pre-tribber, though probably not an expert, I'll address it...

When you look at Rev 14:14-20, there are two possibilities:

1) The reaping in v. 16 is different from the reaping in v. 19. - If this is the case, you might be correct that it refers to the Rapture, though you would be hard-pressed to exegetically support a hard distinction between subject and purpose of the two reapings in context because nothing is ever done with whatever is reaped in v. 16.

2) The passage describes only one reaping - If this is the case, it most certainly cannot describe the Rapture of true believers because they who are reaped are thrown into the winepress of God's wrath (v. 19). This would conflict with 1 Thess 5:9, which I believe we agree says that Christians will not partake of God's wrath.

I lean towards option 2 because it fits the natural flow of thought better. The reaping in v. 16 does not specify anything beyond harvesting the vine. Indeed, the word it's translated from (therizo) can be taken to include gathering of what is harvested and storing it, but it is not a necessary component of the word. Rather, it is specific to mean cutting down of the vine/tree/branch. Even the English word "reap" is definitely a cutting down and non-gathering activity when applied to an agricultural context. In contrast, the "gathering" in v. 19 speaks of no reaping, but rather of gathering the crop and transporting it to the winepress. Additionally, the angel with the sharp sickle is merely cutting the grapes off the vine and not cutting down the vine. What I believe we see here is Jesus cutting down the vine (reaping) and the angel gathering the grapes from the vine for the wrath of the winepress. Finally, there is nothing contextually to demand that believers are in view for vv. 14-20. It is a distinct and separate segment of thought from the believers in vv. 12-13.

Based on all of that, I do not view Rev 14:14-20 as a description of the Rapture.

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As a pre-tribber, though probably not an expert, I'll address it...

When you look at Rev 14:14-20, there are two possibilities:

1) The reaping in v. 16 is different from the reaping in v. 19. - If this is the case, you might be correct that it refers to the Rapture, though you would be hard-pressed to exegetically support a hard distinction between subject and purpose of the two reapings in context because nothing is ever done with whatever is reaped in v. 16.

2) The passage describes only one reaping - If this is the case, it most certainly cannot describe the Rapture of true believers because they who are reaped are thrown into the winepress of God's wrath (v. 19). This would conflict with 1 Thess 5:9, which I believe we agree says that Christians will not partake of God's wrath.

I lean towards option 2 because it fits the natural flow of thought better. The reaping in v. 16 does not specify anything beyond harvesting the vine. Indeed, the word it's translated from (therizo) can be taken to include gathering of what is harvested and storing it, but it is not a necessary component of the word. Rather, it is specific to mean cutting down of the vine/tree/branch. Even the English word "reap" is definitely a cutting down and non-gathering activity when applied to an agricultural context. In contrast, the "gathering" in v. 19 speaks of no reaping, but rather of gathering the crop and transporting it to the winepress. Additionally, the angel with the sharp sickle is merely cutting the grapes off the vine and not cutting down the vine. What I believe we see here is Jesus cutting down the vine (reaping) and the angel gathering the grapes from the vine for the wrath of the winepress. Finally, there is nothing contextually to demand that believers are in view for vv. 14-20. It is a distinct and separate segment of thought from the believers in vv. 12-13.

Based on all of that, I do not view Rev 14:14-20 as a description of the Rapture.

There are a couple reasons I will respectfully disagree.

1: Different things are described as being taken, in different terms. 

2: the term "Ripe" in the two contexts are from two different Greek words, one of which can NOT refer to the grapes.

(I know everyone hates going to the 'Greek', but it CAN be helpful at times.) Notice how the two items being reaped are described:

      Rev 14:15,16"And another angel came out of the temple, crying with a loud voice to him that sat on the cloud, Thrust in thy sickle, and reap: for the time is come for thee to reap; for the harvest of the earth is ripe. And he that sat on the cloud thrust in his sickle on the earth; and the earth was reaped." 

     Rev 14:18,19 "And another angel came out from the altar, which had power over fire; and cried with a loud cry to him that had the sharp sickle, saying, Thrust in thy sharp sickle, and gather the clusters of the vine of the earth; for her grapes are fully ripe. And the angel thrust in his sickle into the earth, and gathered the vine of the earth, and cast it into the great winepress of the wrath of God."

  Okay, in 15 & 16, we see the "harvest" of the earth was 'ripe", and it was 'reaped".    In 18&19, we see it is "grapes" he is to "gather" the "cluster on the vine", because the "grapes are fully ripe"   first, a reaping of the harvest which was ripe, (and for those unfamiliar with farm work, to 'reap' means to both cut and gather up the harvest), and we have a gathering in of the cluster of the vine. There is a difference at play here, and the terminology declares it, as does the different meanings of the word "ripe' in both contexts.

Again, I know we declare we don't need the Greek, but as has been discussed in other posts, it can be a help sometimes. They were both translated as "ripe" and I don't dispute that, BUT the way they the ripeness is defined is telling.  In the first case, it is the Greek word "xērainō", which means, per Strong's:

  1. to make dry, dry up, wither

  2. to become dry, to be dry, be withered a: of plants;  b. of the ripening of crops;  c. of fluid;  d.of the members of the body.

So, it DOES mean ripe, but specifically dried, like ripe crops. Like wheat. And remember how God's people are described in Matthew? As wheat, as opposed to chaff? When wheat is ripe, it is known to be so because it dries up and turns brown and hard.   So first, a ripe, dry harvest.    Then, the word ripe in 18 is the Greek "akmazō" meaning, in Strong's, To flourish, to come to maturity. This is the only time it is used in scripture, by the way.

SO we have a REAPING of a RIPE, DRY product, BY Jesus Christ, with no word of what He does with it, THEN we have a GATHERING of the RIPE, FLOURISHING GRAPE VINE, (not very dry, I think), which is gathered by an angel, and then cast into the winepress of God's wrath, so clearly, these represent the lost.  Very clearly two different events, close in time, one after the other, but two different people, one reaps something dry, one gathers grapes from the vine.

This fits perfectly with they way I understand it to be: Jesus has just gathered his people, like wheat, (Matt 13), the so-called rapture, and the lost are represented by the grapes, which begins the falling of God's wrath. 

Edited by Ukulelemike

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Matthew 24,

You are in error. Serious doctrinal error.

As with Pastor anderson you cannot rightly divide the scriptures. Revelation 1:7 is referring to The comining of the Lord Jesus as KING OF KING AND LORD AND LORDS, to the earth, with the church saints as recorded in Refelation 19:11-21. Revelation 1:7 is not referring to 1 Thessalonians 4:13-18 for the church, in the clouds, and does not return to the earth at all.

Edited by Alan
grammer & title

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"The heart of him that hath understanding seeketh knowledge: but the mouth of fools feedeth on foolishness." Proverbs 15:14

Your statement concerning C.I. Scofield and a Zionist funded commentary was vague, ambiguous and tended to make the casual reader think you are anti-Semitic.

In order to have full understanding, and seek knowledge in your posting we need more information concerning your posting. Could you please answer my above post, and the following two questions, with clear, precise and referenced answers. These three questions are important to understand your posting and reasoning.

1. Are you referring to the C. I. Scofield Reference Bible as a Zionist funded commentary?

2. Is anything financed by a Jew, or a Zionist organization, inherently bad? or evil? or unscriptual?

3. Please define, "Zionist."

Please give appropriate scriptual answers and specific, clear answers with references that can be checked and verified.

Alan

 

matthew24,

I would still like for you to answer the questions about Scofield. In the video it openly called C.I. Scofield and apsotate. Do you think that C.I. Scofield was an apostate? If so, why?

John81,

I will try and be better in my approach and presentation.

Alan

Matthew24,

You said, twice, that you were ready to answer my four questions but so far you have evaded asking them. Apparently, you are not seriously considering answering them but are ignoring them. I am not surprised as your posting reveals your answer.

You, along with pastor Anderson, are  is anti-Semitic. You, along with pastor Anderson, believe that Brother C.I. Scofield was an apostate and that anything that is connected with Zionism is inherently evil. According to Romans 11:25 both of you are  Pastor Anderson is spiritually blind, ignorant, and conceited concerning the mystery of the Jews, their temporary blindness, and ultimate restoration to God. As the elect of God part of the nation of Israel is saved and most are blinded to the Lord Jesus as the Messiah. In the video it is very apparent that pastor Anderson  has learned this anti-Semitism from Martin Luther. Anderson has believed the lies that Martin Luther taught about the Jews.

"For I would not, brethren, that ye should be ignorant of this mystery, lest ye should be wise in your own conceits; that blindness in part is happened to Israel, until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in. And so all Israel shall be saved: as it is written, There shall come out of Sion the Deliverer, and shall turn away ungdliness from Jacob" Romans 11:25

Because  of your blindness you   Andersons blindness he cannot properly interpret the "Time of Jacob's Trouble, " Revelation 6:1-19:21 and the events surrounding the rapture of the church. In the video Anderson ignores, yes, ignores, the prophecies concerning the Jews and the 'Time of Jacob's Trouble,'  Jeremiah 30:7, and many, many other prophecies that properly interprets the book of Revelation. Anderson, and you, is ignoring the scriptures and privately interpreting the sciptures as you he sees fit.

 Paul also concluded the book of Romans with the admonition to the saints what we should  do concerning those who  false teachers that are teaching doctrines contrary to the doctrines in the scriptures: "Now I beseech you, brethren, mark them which cause divisions and offences contrary to the doctrine which ye have learned; and avoid them." Romans 16:17

Brethren,

In the interests of being more gracious, and being a public forum, I have stricken out the references to Matthew24 being anti-Semitic, and will keep that privately held opinion in abeyance. The rest of the post stands and I am still awaiting the answers promised by Matthew24. I will, "endure to the end."

I have though kept the references to Anderson being anti-semitic as it is not just my opinion but open knowledge.

Alan

Edited by Alan
spelling strike-out scripture reference

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I don't like Scofield, primarily because he promoted the Gap Theory, which I don't see as having any sort of biblical basis.  But that's a whole different kettle of fish.

 

 

Alan, I ask you to take it easy in your remarks of accusing another of being blind or anti-Semitic or conceited, et al. If you want to hash something out with him, do it privately-in the forums we seek to keep even our disagreements civil-you've been around long enough to know how quickly things can get out of hand.  Thank you.

Edited by Ukulelemike
Removed that which has been removed.

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Ukulelemike,

In the interests of being more civil and gracious, and to prevent any personal ill-will, and to assure all on this forumt that I have no personal animosity towards Matthew24, I have struck out the offending references to Matthew24 being anti-Semitic, blind, or conceited, and will keep those thoughts private in order to prevent the current issue from getting out of hand.

Alan

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The "big shot" is Steven Anderson who pastors Faithful Word Baptist Church ---->who has won 1000's to the Lord not only in the Phoenix area, but online as well. BTW, I wouldn't suggest a pretribber to take verses out of Matther 24, Luke 21, or Mark 13. Why? These are parallel passages that in 2 of them, directly say Jesus comes After the Tribulation. That is why pretribbers cling to 1 Thess. 4. Why? It doesn't mention the timing....but guess what? It sounds just like all of the other rapture passages in Matt, Mark, Luke, Rev6, Rev14. HE WILL COME IN THE CLOUDS, WITH POWER, AND GLORY< AND EVERY EYE SHALL SEE HIM. HOLLYWOOD IS WRONG!

If you take the bible literally it says, we will not know the day or hour, but it explicitly says we know the time and seasons. We aren't in darkness.

Well I gotta hand it to you, you do admit to be a follower of men at least. If he is your actual pastor, please say so. Sadly with this anderson fella he thinks he knows things noone else has thought of. Just another sign of a novice lifted with pride and I have seen the soulwinning you mention. That church is no where near 1000s big my young friend. I did a little research after this thread posted. I have seen this type repeated in many places

60 people out for 2 hours in a muslim neighborhood with only one baptized but supposedly 43 saved. That is not soulwinning friend. I see folks doing these quick presentations on porches with folks who are polite.  Somehow though not interested enough in their souls to even invite them in and actually take time with the Scriptures. These people just wanted them off their porches so pray the 123 prayer to get rid of them. After all, why not, they think of it as a rabbits foot, like it can't hurt to repeat after them!!! Like a lucky charm I want to try to get in good with all types of gods. That kind of witnessing is not Scriptural. Ask anderson how many faithful members of his church got saved like that - the answer will be zero; there is always more to the story than this quicky stuff. Does it happen with the quicky presentations and prayers (yes if the seed has been planted and watered enough) but rarely. And when it is a real conversion, those people will come to church and confess Him before men. I am not saying they will all grow the same or serve the same but they will confess Him before men.

Why not track how many got a chance to give the complete Gospel or track how many tracts were accepted when they didn't want to receive the complete Gospel. We are to plant the seeds and water planted seeds but God and Him only gives the increase. And when He does, we will bring the sheaves with us. Anderson and others like him want to give the increase themselves with these false conversion numbers. The real numbers are sitting in the pews at least for a little while.

I am not referring to folks who did confess Him with Baptism and then backslide, not at all the Bible tells us there will be many like this. What the Bible doesn't tell us is those who won't be Baptised are actually saved (not couldn't, not can't) but WON'T

Sure I can't see into mens hearts but I can read my Bible and It says that if he who will not confess Me before men him will I not confess before my Father. Those ain't conversions, those are just rabbit's feet for the lost. Reporting numbers at all costs does more harm than good. Another novice mistake.

If they want to grow in the Lord and truly serve Him, they will forget their pride in false numbers and stop condemning folks who will now tell the next soulwinner that they are already saved once again stopping their chance to hear the complete Gospel. It really makes me angry. Somewhere along the line these folks need to be honest with themselves and not sell it like snakeoil with wisdom of words making the Cross of none effect. There is a big difference between polite and convicted, how do we ignore this?

I know people all around this area who tell me all the time they are saved but these same people will not even tell their own children how to escape hell. Saved huh? like my redbone hounds are saved.

We must go and we must preach but not like this. Stop the nonsense and get busy, time is short.

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The "big shot" is Steven Anderson who pastors Faithful Word Baptist Church ---->who has won 1000's to the Lord not only in the Phoenix area, but online as well. BTW, I wouldn't suggest a pretribber to take verses out of Matther 24, Luke 21, or Mark 13. Why? These are parallel passages that in 2 of them, directly say Jesus comes After the Tribulation. That is why pretribbers cling to 1 Thess. 4. Why? It doesn't mention the timing....but guess what? It sounds just like all of the other rapture passages in Matt, Mark, Luke, Rev6, Rev14. HE WILL COME IN THE CLOUDS, WITH POWER, AND GLORY< AND EVERY EYE SHALL SEE HIM. HOLLYWOOD IS WRONG!

If you take the bible literally it says, we will not know the day or hour, but it explicitly says we know the time and seasons. We aren't in darkness.

"1,000's" implies two or more thousand.

Quite a remarkable amount of people.  Since you are so knowledgeable of the number of people that Anderson has "led to the Lord," how about providing proof of your claim?  Who are these "1,000's of people"? 

Seriously, I know you really do not have such knowledge, unless you are Anderson himself? 

However, given the hatred that I have heard from Anderson's sermons on more than one occasion, (remember his stating that he prays that Obama is killed?) I highly doubt Anderson has led anyone to the Lord at all.  He may have presented a false christ to people and people ate it up, but that he led them to the God of the Bible?  I highly doubt it. 

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There are a couple reasons I will respectfully disagree.

1: Different things are described as being taken, in different terms. 

2: the term "Ripe" in the two contexts are from two different Greek words, one of which can NOT refer to the grapes.

...

SO we have a REAPING of a RIPE, DRY product, BY Jesus Christ, with no word of what He does with it, THEN we have a GATHERING of the RIPE, FLOURISHING GRAPE VINE, (not very dry, I think), which is gathered by an angel, and then cast into the winepress of God's wrath, so clearly, these represent the lost.  Very clearly two different events, close in time, one after the other, but two different people, one reaps something dry, one gathers grapes from the vine.

This fits perfectly with they way I understand it to be: Jesus has just gathered his people, like wheat, (Matt 13), the so-called rapture, and the lost are represented by the grapes, which begins the falling of God's wrath. 

Mike,

First, thanks for the thoughtful and engaging response. After considering your argument and double-checking your facts in multiple linguistic sources, I have to recant the conclusion of my previous post and agree that there are two harvests/reapings in view here (yes, I am capable of accepting instructive correction after all :bonk:). Thanks for bringing that nugget to my attention.

However, I still do not see this passage as a clear and unequivocal description of the Rapture. There are 3 objections/problems I see...

1) There is nothing in the passage (that I currently see) to demand that the wheat being harvested is made up of pre-raptured believers as opposed to those saved in the Tribulation if there was a pre-tribulation Rapture.

2) I am not entirely convinced that the "one like unto the Son of man" in v. 14 is a specific reference to Jesus. This is partially because he takes direction to reap from an angel out of the temple (v.15), but Jesus takes command and direction from no one except God the Father. I understand that the same wording is used in Rev 1:13 to reference Jesus, but there it is accompanied by descriptive delimiters that echo Daniel's descript of God (Dan 7:9-10).  Additionally, while "Son of man" is a title given to Jesus, it is one that is intended to emphasize His humanity and is a title also given to prophets (Dan 8:17 and most of Ezekiel) as well to reference human lineage in general, often with a sense of limitation (Isa 51:12; Jer 49:18, 33, 50:40, 51:43; Heb 2:6). While the "Son of man" on a cloud may echo what we see in the Rapture as depicted 1 Thess 4, it also the common imagery used for the final Second Coming (Dan 7:13; Matt 24:30, 26:64; Mark 13:26, 14:62). Given that it is not unquestionably Jesus on the cloud and that if it was there is nothing to distinguish it from the Second Coming, I cannot yet view this as a definitive reference to the Rapture.

3) The imagery used here for harvesting wheat is dissimilar from the imagery used in the 1 Thess 4 description of the Rapture. In Rev 14:14-16, the wheat is cut down wholesale and gathered. Perhaps there is a separation of wheat from tares at this point (which is not specified and so must be read in), but the harvesting of wheat implies some type of death (cf. John 12:24 on the death of the harvested wheat). In contrast 1 Thess 4:13-18 depicts not death, but resurrection and immediate translation from one life into the next. The believers of the Rapture are not cut down and gathered, they are simply called up by Jesus to meet Him in the air.

Given these three reasons, I remain unconvinced that Rev 14:14-20 describes the Rapture.

Edited by TheSword
grammar

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