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Standing Firm In Christ

The Widow's Mites

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Mark 12:40a "Which devour widows houses,..."

 

devour - Greek 'katesthio'

Outline of Biblical Usage:
to consume by eating, to eat up, devour
of birds
of a dragon
of a man eating up the little book
metaph.
to devour i.e. squander, waste: substance
to devour i.e. forcibly appropriate: widows' property
to strip one of his goods
to ruin (by the infliction of injuries)
by fire, to devour i.e. to utterly consume, destroy
of the consumption of the strength of body and mind by strong emotions

 

the whole purpose of Jesus sitting against the wall was to demonstrate to His followers how the widow's living was being "forcibly appropriated."  She was forced to give all her living by the scribes of the Law, just as we are forced to pay taxes by the scribes of our laws.

 

Jesus was not commending the widow on her giving at all.  He was pointing out to His followers that she gave all her living because she was being forced to do so.

The forced taxation did little to hurt the rich, yet it oppressed the poor greatly, taking away from that which they needed to survive.

Edited by Standing Firm In Christ

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There are a lot of rules oftentimes that Baptist churches add outside of the Bible. If I had a family, with my income, which is above average, I don't know how I would obey some of the added Independent Baptist rules like being obligated to send all the children to a Christian school, tithing the gross income all to the church, and not allowing the wife to work outside the home in any circumstances.

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4 hours ago, mkrishna said:

There are a lot of rules oftentimes that Baptist churches add outside of the Bible. If I had a family, with my income, which is above average, I don't know how I would obey some of the added Independent Baptist rules like being obligated to send all the children to a Christian school, tithing the gross income all to the church, and not allowing the wife to work outside the home in any circumstances.

Hmmmm, I wonder what you might consider an "above average" income.  As for myself, I, my wife, and my two children have lived for many years on less than $30,000 per year.  Yet my wife does not work outside the home; my children are homeschooled (was - for the oldest, since he is now in Bible college training for the ministry); and we (my wife and I) have given (because we purposed in our hearts to do so) 20% of all our increase unto the work of the Lord in honor unto our Lord.  In addition, I believe that we as a family have lived quite joyfully and comfortably in so doing. 

"But this I say, He which soweth sparingly shall reap also sparingly; and he which soweth bountifully shall reap also bountifully." (2 Corinthians 9:6 - a New Testament promise)

"And God is able to make all grace abound toward you: that ye, always having all sufficiency in all things, may abound to every good work: being enriched in every thing to all bountifulness, which causeth through us thanksgiving to God." (2 Corinthians 9:8 & 11, with the parenthetical of verses 9-10 removed - another New Testament promise)

"Now he that ministereth seed to the sower both minister bread for you food, and multiply your seed sown, and increase the fruits of your righteousness." (2 Corinthians 9:10 - a New Testament prayer)

"Thanks be unto God for his unspeakable gift." (2 Corinthians 9:15 - a New Testament motivation for bountiful giving)

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5 hours ago, mkrishna said:

There are a lot of rules oftentimes that Baptist churches add outside of the Bible. If I had a family, with my income, which is above average, I don't know how I would obey some of the added Independent Baptist rules like being obligated to send all the children to a Christian school, tithing the gross income all to the church, and not allowing the wife to work outside the home in any circumstances.

Nothing intrinsically wrong with a set list of rules in the IFB.  Established rules in any organization is a must if that organization is to run effectively.  One has the choice to become a member or not.

 

However, when any denomination, IFB or otherwise, invents rules such as the monetary tithe and claims that the Bible teaches said rule, (using Leviticus 27:30; Malachi 3:8-10; Matthew 23:23, or any other verse in the Bible as their "proof-text") that denomination is clearly handling the Word of God deceitfully..

 

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10 hours ago, mkrishna said:

There are a lot of rules oftentimes that Baptist churches add outside of the Bible. If I had a family, with my income, which is above average, I don't know how I would obey some of the added Independent Baptist rules like being obligated to send all the children to a Christian school, tithing the gross income all to the church, and not allowing the wife to work outside the home in any circumstances.

Rules or biblical principles?  Off the top of my head I can think of verses which support the first two but what about the third?

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None for you 

27 minutes ago, Standing Firm In Christ said:

There are no verses to support the tithing of one's gross income to the Church.  

 

None for you, we know.  For me and my house we happily give of our tithes and offerings; our substance, the firstfruits of all our increase.  

Back to MrKrishna, Proverbs 3:9 is a bible reference to tithing one's gross income.  You earned it all even though you do not get to see what was taken by the government.  It's the Lord's money anyways, not yours.  He let you have it.  Funny thing though, Hillary and Obama and Nancy and Harry say the same thing all the time too!  

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1 hour ago, swathdiver said:

None for you 

None for you, we know.  For me and my house we happily give of our tithes and offerings; our substance, the firstfruits of all our increase.  

Back to MrKrishna, Proverbs 3:9 is a bible reference to tithing one's gross income.  You earned it all even though you do not get to see what was taken by the government.  It's the Lord's money anyways, not yours.  He let you have it.  Funny thing though, Hillary and Obama and Nancy and Harry say the same thing all the time too!  

Proverbs 3:9 is NOT about tithing monetary income, gross or net.

 

Solomon was living in the dispensation of the Law.  The Law stated that God's holy tithe was agricultural, NOT monetary.  Solomon was NOT saying to tithe money.

Edited by Standing Firm In Christ

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SFIC, the tithe applies today as it did in the Garden of Eden.  I live it, my church teaches it and our prayers have not been hindered.  We have not been thrown out of church and we do not subsist on ramen noodles.  We cheerfully give and the Lord provides, despite the tremendous hardships we've endured as of late.

I consider you a brother in Christ and know you love the Lord and also know that this is your pet project in life.  I'm not going to play the greek game or debate the subject.  

Abraham gave through Melchisedec to Christ, Israel gave through the Levites to Christ, the church members give through their local churches to Christ.

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4 hours ago, swathdiver said:

SFIC, the tithe applies today as it did in the Garden of Eden.  I live it, my church teaches it and our prayers have not been hindered.  We have not been thrown out of church and we do not subsist on ramen noodles.  We cheerfully give and the Lord provides, despite the tremendous hardships we've endured as of late.

I consider you a brother in Christ and know you love the Lord and also know that this is your pet project in life.  I'm not going to play the greek game or debate the subject.  

Abraham gave through Melchisedec to Christ, Israel gave through the Levites to Christ, the church members give through their local churches to Christ.

In the Bible, the tithe is not even mentioned in the account of the Garden of Eden.  To teach that it was in the Garden of Eden is to add to the Word of God.

What Abram tithed to Melchizedek was spoils of war.  The Bible nowhere says he gave his own household monetary income to Melchizedek.  To teach that Abram either gave his household monetary income to Melchizedek, or that he tithed his household monetary income to Melchizedek, is to add to the Word of God.

Israel tithed agricultural produce and livestock to the Levites,... not their household monetary income.  To teach that they tithed their monetary income to the Levites, is to add to the Word of God.

I'll continue to preach what the Bible says concerning God's holy tithe.  If your Church chooses to add to the Biblical text, and to teach for doctrine the commandment of men, that's their error.  

Edited by Standing Firm In Christ

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On 12/9/2015 at 3:09 AM, swathdiver said:

Rules or biblical principles?  Off the top of my head I can think of verses which support the first two but what about the third?

Titus 2 -

3 The aged women likewise, that they be in behaviour as becometh holiness, not false accusers, not given to much wine, teachers of good things;

4 That they may teach the young women to be sober, to love their husbands, to love their children,

To be discreet, chaste, keepers at home, good, obedient to their own husbands, that the word of God be not blasphemed.

Edited by Genevanpreacher

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Brethren,

I will also add a very short word of testimony. I give my of my treasures to the church, willingly, purposely, and cheerfully, because I love the Lord and His work. To me, the widow is an example for me to do more than I do. And, more than likely, I do not measure up to the commendation that Lord Jesus gave to the poor widow.

It is a blessing to be able to give to the Lord through His church.

Alan

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1 hour ago, Alan said:

Brethren,

I will also add a very short word of testimony. I give my of my treasures to the church, willingly, purposely, and cheerfully, because I love the Lord and His work. To me, the widow is an example for me to do more than I do. And, more than likely, I do not measure up to the commendation that Lord Jesus gave to the poor widow.

It is a blessing to be able to give to the Lord through His church.

Alan

Yes, the Lord Jesus purposely commended the widow.

Tthe Lord Jesus commended the widow and the giving of her mites. The widow purposely, cheerfully, and lovingly gave of her funds, yea, all of her funds, to the Lord God in heaven through the Temple as the Old Testament directed. And the saints who love the Lord Jesus give willingly, cheerfully, and purposely through the New Testament, Independent, Bible believing Baptist church for the furtherance of the gospel of Jesus Christ.

The idea that the widow did not give wilingly, but through, what you say, through 'coerceon,' or 'robbery' is a  perversion of the very words of the Lord Jesus.

SFIC, why don't you just stick to your own blog (and your own book on tithing), and promote your own interpretation of the words of the Lord Jesus, and the other scriptures on your own blog, to those who are likeminded instead of forcing your teachings on us. Your teaching is repugnant.

Alan

 

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You are adding to the text, Alan.  

 

The Scripture shows no commendation in that passage.  But it does show condemnation.

 

The Lord had just warned of the scribes robbing widiw's houses, condemning the ones doing the robbing.  Keeping the passage in context, the Lord was demonstrating how the widows were being robbed... By having to give money to the Temple that was not required by God.  By having to give what she needed to sustain her life.

 

God's requirement, as far as the poor were concerned in giving money to the Temple, was that males twenty years old and up give half a shekel a year.  

Jesus pointed out that the widow was poor.  And that she gave all that she had to live on.  Why would He commend her for putting all she had to live on in the coffers of the thieves in the Temple?

 

Your theory that the widow was being commended makes absolutely no sense whatsoever when the account is read in context.

Edited by Standing Firm In Christ

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On 9/25/2015 at 10:10 PM, Standing Firm In Christ said:

And Jesus sat over against the treasury, and beheld how the people cast money into the treasury: and many that were rich cast in much.

SFIC...speaking of reading in context, it would seem that the widow was not the only one that thought giving money to the temple was required.

You conveniently leave out the part of this Scripture that I quoted, and that is because it doesn't fit your vendetta against any sort of giving to the work of The Lord. This may sound harsh, but it is the way I see it in all of your posts regarding giving to God's work.

 I don't see Jesus rebuking all the other people who cast money into the treasury, which he surely would have done if it was not required or wrong. So, are we to believe what the Bible says these people were doing, or your wrongful assertions of what Scripture plainly says?

Your assertion that she was coerced into giving is a private interpretation that is not warranted by the context in question. Even reading in an elementary manner reveals that the Lord was commending her for her unselfish, and sacrificial giving to the work of God.

Just to be clear and honest, your interpretation of this passage is one I have never heard from any other source and I don't believe it is correct, nor is it found in any IFB expositions pertaining to this passage that I have ever seen.
 Rom. 3:3 For what if some did not believe? shall their unbelief make the faith of God without effect? 
 4 God forbid: yea, let God be true, but every man a liar; as it is written, That thou mightest be justified in thy sayings, and mightest overcome when thou art judged.

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17 minutes ago, Jim_Alaska said:

SFIC...speaking of reading in context, it would seem that the widow was not the only one that thought giving money to the temple was required.

You conveniently leave out the part of this Scripture that I quoted, and that is because it doesn't fit your vendetta against any sort of giving to the work of The Lord. This may sound harsh, but it is the way I see it in all of your posts regarding giving to God's work.

 I don't see Jesus rebuking all the other people who cast money into the treasury, which he surely would have done if it was not required or wrong. So, are we to believe what the Bible says these people were doing, or your wrongful assertions of what Scripture plainly says?

Your assertion that she was coerced into giving is a private interpretation that is not warranted by the context in question. Even reading in an elementary manner reveals that the Lord was commending her for her unselfish, and sacrificial giving to the work of God.

Just to be clear and honest, your interpretation of this passage is one I have never heard from any other source and I don't believe it is correct, nor is it found in any IFB expositions pertaining to this passage that I have ever seen.
 Rom. 3:3 For what if some did not believe? shall their unbelief make the faith of God without effect? 
 4 God forbid: yea, let God be true, but every man a liar; as it is written, That thou mightest be justified in thy sayings, and mightest overcome when thou art judged.

My "assertions" are not wrong at all.

 

The scribes were the interpreters of the Law, much like our SCOTUS Justices are.  

 

Context shows how the widows were being robbed.  They were made to give to the Temple where it was detrimental to their welfare.  Sure, the rich were made to give as well.  But two mites is far more needful to a poor widow than two mites would be to the affluent.  

 

What she had to give was unjust, because it robbed her of her living.  

Edited by Standing Firm In Christ

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On 9/25/2015 at 10:10 PM, Standing Firm In Christ said:
18 minutes ago, Standing Firm In Christ said:

My "assertions" are not wrong at all.

 

The scribes were the interpreters of the Law, much like our SCOTUS Justices are.  

 

Context shows how the widows were being robbed.  They were made to give to the Temple where it was detrimental to their welfare.  Sure, the rich were made to give as well.  But two mites is far more needful to a poor widow than two mites would be to the affluent.  

 

What she had to give was unjust, because it robbed her of her living.  

Your private assertions are wrong SFIC. While this passage does say that widows were being robbed, it does not say that this window was being robbed by her giving. One of the rules of Bible study is that we go by what the Scripture says, not what it doesn't say. You have to torture the Scripture to make it say what you want it to say, not what it actually says. Nowhere in this Scripture does it say that she "had" to give what she did, you just assume it.

 

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21 minutes ago, Jim_Alaska said:

 

Read this passage along with the delivery Jesus gave in Matthew 23.    Jesus was pronouncing judgment against the religious leaders.  And when He walked out of the Temple, He pronounced judgment against the Temple itself.

 

Jesus was angry at what the leaders of Israel had become, robbers of the poor.  He was angry at what they had done to the House of God.  It had become a place filled with extortion.  

 

It is both disgusting and ridiculous to think that Jesus would be commending a poor widow who made herself destitute by giving all she had to live on to a religious system that He had just exposed as thieves.

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Jesus said in Matthew 23:15 that the scribes and Pharisees were children of hell.

 

Tell me Jim, why would Jesus commend a poor widow for funding unsaved children of hell, or for funding a corrupt religious system with all she had to live on?

 

it is not my doctrine that is a "torture to Scripture".  Rather, it is the doctrine that claims Jesus was commending the widow.  That doctrine that has Jesus commending the funding of a corrupt religious system is the doctrine that is a "torture to Scripture".

Edited by Standing Firm In Christ

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5 hours ago, Standing Firm In Christ said:

You are adding to the text, Alan.  

 

The Scripture shows no commendation in that passage.  But it does show condemnation.

 

In the context, the Lord Jesus is plainly showing the heart difference from the Scribes, Mark 12:38-40, and the widow in Mark 12:41-44.

Both Pastor Markle and I had brought out this contrast very clearly and concisely and you just ignored both our posts. As you have also ignored and condemned the other fine posts of the brethren. In fact, you have condemned ( On OnlIne Baptist, on your blog, in your book, and on your forum), anybody who decides to give a tithe and offering to the church. This includes pastors who pastor churches. You have called these men of God, 'thieves," and "robbers."

Your condemnation of the widow for giving thorugh coercion and 'robbbery' is not correct. No, SFIC, I am not adding to the text: you are perverting the very words of the Lord Jesus.

Alan

 

 

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35 minutes ago, Alan said:

In the context, the Lord Jesus is plainly showing the heart difference from the Scribes, Mark 12:38-40, and the widow in Mark 12:41-44.

Both Pastor Markle and I had brought out this contrast very clearly and concisely and you just ignored both our posts. As you have also ignored and condemned the other fine posts of the brethren. In fact, you have condemned ( On OnlIne Baptist, on your blog, in your book, and on your forum), anybody who decides to give a tithe and offering to the church. This includes pastors who pastor churches. You have called these men of God, 'thieves," and "robbers."

Your condemnation of the widow for giving thorugh coercion and 'robbbery' is not correct. No, SFIC, I am not adding to the text: you are perverting the very words of the Lord Jesus.

Alan

 

 

There is no "heart difference" demonstrated in the passage whatsoever.  

Jesus doesn't say, "Look what a great thing this widow has done!"  The widow casting in the mites, and His subsequent statement that she had cast in more than all the others was smack-dab in the middle of His condemnation of the actions of the religious leaders and His judgment against the Temple itself.  

The account of the widow was all part of that big picture,... A piece of the puzzle.  It was the actions of the religious leaders in that corrupt system that placed that widow in the destitute position she went home in.  She was poor when she arrived at the Temple.  She was even poorer when she left.

True religion is visiting the widows in their affliction,... not to rob them of the only means they had to survive on.

I am not "perverting the words of Jesus" at all.  I have exegeted the passage, reading verses 41-44 in their proper context.  You and Scott have eisegeted one verse, tking it out of its context, adding some imaginary heart condition of the widow and alleged commendation by Jesus.  In doing so, it is you who has "perverted the Words of the Lord Jesus," not I.

Edited by Standing Firm In Christ

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It would seem, SFIC, that you are the only one holding to this private interpretation of yours. Can you come up with anyone else that holds to this position? I am not talking about just here at Online Baptist, but anywhere that Bible believing Independent Baptists are?

You claim to be an IFB, but how you can claim that and be so at odds with our fundamental teachings is unfathomable. So it would seem that arguing with you on this issue will remain unproductive since you are convinced in your own mind that your view is correct against all attempts to show you your error. I guess it's a case of SFIC standing alone against historically accurate Scripture interpretations. So be it.

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46 minutes ago, Jim_Alaska said:

It would seem, SFIC, that you are the only one holding to this private interpretation of yours. Can you come up with anyone else that holds to this position? I am not talking about just here at Online Baptist, but anywhere that Bible believing Independent Baptists are?

You claim to be an IFB, but how you can claim that and be so at odds with our fundamental teachings is unfathomable. So it would seem that arguing with you on this issue will remain unproductive since you are convinced in your own mind that your view is correct against all attempts to show you your error. I guess it's a case of SFIC standing alone against historically accurate Scripture interpretations. So be it.

Funny you would ask that.  I googled the widow's mite just a little over two hours ago and found a very popular preacher teaching the widow was being robbed.  

 

I do not listen to him normally because he does not use the King James Bible.  His name?  John MacArthur.  The sermon is Titled, "Abusing the Poor".

 

what is that first word that the "I" in IFB stands for?  Oh yeah,... Independent.  That could answer the question as to why I don't agree with you on tithing or the widow's mite account.

 

as to tithing being a "Baptist Fundamental", that is debateable since monetary tithing among Baptists is relatively young.  John Harvey Grime wrote in 1932 that should a Baptist Church ever begin to teach the monetary tithe doctrine, it would cease to be Baptist.  

 

Leaning on what JHG stated, this would mean that I am more "Baptist" than you or Alan.  LoL

 

by the way,... I am not in error.

 

 

Edited by Standing Firm In Christ

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