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Standing Firm In Christ

The Widow's Mites

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13 minutes ago, Alan said:

Does not a person from the heart have a desire to give?

"Keep thy heart with all dilgence; for out of it are the issues of life." Proverbs 4;23

Did not the Lord Jesus judge the religious leaders in Mark 12:38-40 according to the disire of their heart?

And, did not the Lord Jesus commend the widow in Mark 12:43 and 44 according to the disre of her heart?

Does not God, as the Lord Jesus, look upon the desires of the heart and makes a judgment? "But the LORD said unto Samuel, Look not on his countenance, or on the height of his stature; because I have refused him: for the LORD seeth not as a man seeth; for man looketh on the outward appearance, but the LORD looketh on the heart." 1 Samuel 16:7

The Lord Jesus saw the desires of the heart of the poor, desitute, and poverty stricken widow and told us, and the whole world, she gave out of a heart of love.

Alan, you are reading desire into the text.  Nowhere in the text is there any indication whatsoever that the widow had a desire to give.

Edited by Standing Firm In Christ

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5 minutes ago, Standing Firm In Christ said:

Alan, you are reading desire into the trxt.  Nowhere in the text is there any indication whatsoever that the widow had a desire to give.

Did not you read Proverbs 4:23 and 1 Samuel 16:7? The Lord Jesus looked at the desires, at the motive, at the heart of this destitute widow and saw that she gave out of a heart of love.

For you, or anybody else, to say that she was 'robbed' and gave through the intimidation of the lost religious leaders is not correct.

Edited by Alan
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3 minutes ago, Standing Firm In Christ said:

God does see our desires.  However, he sees forced giving as well.  He even sees people who are manipulated into giving out of fear and guilt.

You are correct. God does see our desires. God, the Lord Jesus, saw the desires of the widow and saw a heart of sacrificial giving. Nowhere in the passage of scripture concerning the widow, Mark 12:43 and 44, does the Lord Jesus say, or even allude too, that the widow was forced, or manipulated, into giving by fear and guilt. The interpretation that the widow gave out of fear or guilt is your own private interpretation; it is not the words of the Lord Jesus. According to the very words of the Lord Jesus, she gave sacrificially because she wanted too.

And, that is the same motive that a lot of other saints give their tithes and offerings, and lives. No fear, no guilt, and no intimidation from preachers.

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There is no indication in the text that the widow had a desire to give.  Nor do Jesus' words infer what you claim.

 

no fear, guilt or intimidation from preachers?  You are incorrect.  Preachers use Malachi 3 every Sunday to guilt and manipulate congregant's giving.  Every time they use Malachi 3 to prove people should tithe to the church, they do so in error.

Edited by Standing Firm In Christ

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12 hours ago, Standing Firm In Christ said:

There is no indication in the text that the widow had a desire to give.  Nor do Jesus' words infer what you claim.

 

no fear, guilt or intimidation from preachers?  You are incorrect.  Preachers use Malachi 3 every Sunday to guilt and manipulate congregant's giving.  Every time they use Malachi 3 to prove people should tithe to the church, they do so in error.

I would suggest you re-read Proverbs 4:23 and 1 Samuel 16:7 and ponder what God said.

Have not you ever read Hebrews 4:12? "For the word of God is quick, and powerful, and sharper than any two-edged sword, piercing even to the dividing asunder of soul and spirit, and of the joints and morrow, and is a discerner of the thoughts and intents of the heart."

Did not the Lord Jesus, discern the thoughts and intents of the heart of the religious leaders in Mark 12:38-40 and tell us of the wickedness of their hearts?

Did not the Lord Jesus discern the thoughts and intents of the heart of the widow in Mark 12:41-44 and tell us she sacrificially gave?

Maybe if you read why Abraham gave tithes and offerings, Genesis 14:17-24, it may help your spirit in the matter of giving to the Lord and His work and your interpretation of the widows mite.

Edited by Alan
spelling delete sentence

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Jesus knew the intents of the heart, no doubt.  However, the text does not indicate the intent of the widow's heart.  

 

You accuse me of private interpretation earlier.  But by adding to Mark that the widow had a desire to give, you expose your own private interpretation.

I believe I know why Abram gave tithes .  Genesis 14:17-24 does not say that he gave offerings, so there you go again with private interpretation.

 

let's look at Abram's tithe, shall we?

 

Abram tithed. (Genesis 14:20)  However, what Abram tithed to Melchizedek was war spoils, (Hebrews 7:4) not his own riches. (Genesis 13:2)

Abram did not tithe his own property, but the property of others. (Genesis 14:22-23)

I suppose I could go to war, kill someone, take the spoils, give a tenth to a priestly king, (which would include any person who is a Christian, not necessarily a pastor) then give the remaining spoils to their rightful owners.

Of course, I would only need to do this once, since Abram is said only to have tithed one time in his lifetime.

 

why did Abram tithe those war spoils?  Historical artifacts in the British Museum may hold that answer.  The museum has in its collection, two tablets etched in cuneiform dating 2200 BC.  These tablets depict Babylonians giving war spoils to kings.

 

abram was originally from Ur of the Chaldees, a region of,... ancient Babylonia.

 

it appears Abram tithed war spoils simply due to an ancient custom of the land and people he grew up among.

 

Edited by Standing Firm In Christ

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I've been studying the topic of tithing both from a Biblical perspective and a historical perspective for nearly three decades now.  How about you?

Likewise, I've been teaching stewardship for nearly three decades.

 

in the last 27 1/2 years, I have challenged pastors on the tithe issus, even offering $1,000 and a Nissan

Pathfinder to the one who could present any verse in the KJV that states money is to be tithed to the church.

 

to date, none have presented that verse.

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9 minutes ago, Standing Firm In Christ said:

I've been studying the topic of tithing both from a Biblical perspective and a historical perspective for nearly three decades now.  How about you?

Likewise, I've been teaching stewardship for nearly three decades.

 

in the last 27 1/2 years, I have challenged pastors on the tithe issus, even offering $1,000 and a Nissan

Pathfinder to the one who could present any verse in the KJV that states money is to be tithed to the church.

 

to date, none have presented that verse.

That's because there is absolutely no command for Christians to tithe anything to the church. Such isn't even suggested. Unfortunately many Baptist pastors preach otherwise.

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14 minutes ago, John81 said:

That's because there is absolutely no command for Christians to tithe anything to the church. Such isn't even suggested. Unfortunately many Baptist pastors preach otherwise.

You are correct, John.  

 

What's sad is, they will pull all kind of Scripture out of context in an attempt to prove their man-made doctrine is Biblical fact.

 

I have even heard the "Render unto God that which is God's as proof-text.  Of course, that verse had nothing to do with tithing.

 

 

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All I stated was the fact that the Lord Jesus expressed to us the sacrificial giving of the widow. The widow, as a lot of other fine saints, gave because she loved the Lord and His work. The Lord Jesus nowwhere even alluded to the teaching of the Pharisees nor was she intimidated by them.

I do not blame any pastor not wanting to discuss the isssue with you. You cannot properly interpret scripture, and, sad to say, you attitude is poor in the area of giving.

Edited by Alan
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I have no attitude against giving.  You misjudge me.

 

I encourage people to give.  I believe a church that sticks to what the Word of God says should have finances coming in, even if only for building maintenene.   

 

However, a pastor who will add to the Bible text, trying to make it say what the Bible does not say, needs to close its doors until it gets its doctrines right with God's Word.  Such a church that twists God's Word into a lie doesn't need support.

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I wonder why, if this widow was genuinely being robbed, why did Jesus just sit back and use her as an object lesson? Why didn't he either go up to her privately before she put her money in, and quietly explain to her why she should not do so? Or why didn't he put a stop to everything the way he did when he drove out the money changers (who were robbing people - "den of thieves")? Why this? Why that? But nope. He used her as an object lesson and we don't know what happens to her after this account. Wouldn't sitting back and doing nothing when you know someone is being robbed be just as bad as the one doing the robbing?

(I personally think Jesus didn't do anything because the Temple wasn't in the wrong for accepting money from the laypeople. And because of her motives. Her heart was right with God. The money didn't mean a thing. Her giving the money didn't mean a thing. It was her heart. Her motives. Those Pharisees Jesus also used as object lessons could've dumped their entire fortunes to the last penny into the Temple until they were destitute on the street and it wouldn't have changed what Jesus said. Because their motives were wrong. Their hearts were not right with God.)

There is no command for the New Testament saints that says : Thou shalt tithe to the New Testament church!

But there is also no: Thou shalt NOT tithe to the New Testament church!

What there is, is verse upon verse upon verse telling us what our attitudes/motives should be like when we do give. If a person decides they want to tithe and they are poor as a church mouse, it's still their decision. It is just as wrong for us to discourage tithing, shame those who do tithe, preach against tithing, and teach against tithing as it is to preach for an exact 10% tithe, shame those who are tithing, encourage forced tithing (fear tithing: God will punish you if you don't, etc). Both are wrong.  There isn't a verse for or against the practice in the New Testament, but there are commands concerning our attitude/motives of giving.

What is your motive for preaching for tithing?

What is your motive for preaching against tithing?

Whatever ones motive is for preaching for or against a thing, you really need to make sure your heart is right with God first, before you start trying to convince others what God wants them to do with their money.

(the above is all general 'you' , it's not aimed at anyone in particular)

 

 

As a side note, this is why I rarely post here anymore,  it really saddens me when I see topics like this that end up with Christians at each others throats and taking sides. There should only be one 'side', and that is God's side. For some reason, tithing discussions arguments seem to always end up really volatile and full of venom.... and they shouldn't be, it's a topic that needs to be discussed in a level headed way, because it truly is an important topic.

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Leviticus 27:30-34, Psalms 147:19-20 & Acts 15:28-29 is enough proof for me to say tithing should not be taught. (Other than to let the congregation know it was a command for ancient Israel and not for the Church)

 

that, and the fact that Jesus said worship is in vain when man-made commandments are taught as if  they are doctrines from God.  Whether people want to admit it or not, the monetary tithe is a man-made commandment.  

Edited by Standing Firm In Christ

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:goodpost: In fact, excellent post NN! The only thing I would add is that a persons heart needs to be led by the Lord after prayer regarding their giving. While some recognize this, many are very haphazard in their giving. Some give whatever they happen to grab out of their pocket with no thought (let alone prayer) at all. Others give based upon whatever formula they are working with at the time. Some out of a sense of guilt. Some hoping to receive extra financial blessings based upon how much they give. Etc.

The point about "God's going to get His tithe one way or another" and similar arguments along the lines of "don't worry about your bills, just pay your tithe even if you can't afford it and God will take care of those bills" are some of the most egregious teachings. I know of folks who have gone into great debt trying to follow these teachings; those who have lost their homes, marriages and other things due to poor money management based upon their preachers teaching (which is so very similar to some of the prosperity preachers they are quick to call false teachers!).

Yes, even Baptists have problems with men's traditions having become "doctrine" that is fought to preserve. I've heard preachers say if they didn't constantly preach on the tithe and push their congregation to tithe their church wouldn't have any money at all. If such were true, then it would be better to preach on salvation and growth in Christ because when a congregation is living for the Lord the church will have its needs met.

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21 minutes ago, No Nicolaitans said:

Why do we get so upset when someone uses scripture to justify a false doctrine? Such as, Hagee's false doctrine about salvation for the Jews. We get upset about the false doctrine concerning losing salvation. We get upset about SDA's false doctrine about keeping the sabbath and other commands. We get upset about women pastors. We get upset about people who deny the Trinity. We get upset about the prosperity gospel. We get upset about people who promote hyper-grace. We get upset about people who put down the KJV. We get upset about every false doctrine out there (and rightly so)...but tithing gets a pass...even though it's a false doctrine for today's church.

We also get upset about Replacement Theology; however, much of today's church practices a form of Replacement Theology (without even realizing it). Today's church has replaced Israel in tithing...

  1. They have replaced who is to tithe.
  2. They have replaced what is to be tithed.
  3. They have replaced where to tithe.
  4. They have replaced why they tithe.
  5. They have replaced when they tithe.

So, without even realizing what they're doing, they are practicing Replacement Theology by replacing Israel with the church in this regard.

11 minutes ago, John81 said:

I know of folks who have gone into great debt trying to follow these teachings;

Bro. John...I won't go into the whole story, but that was me and my family. I take responsibility for not having studied the truth myself, but I followed that teaching for a long time and never received the promised "blessings" or the "safety from the Devourer". I'm ashamed to say it now, but I put our family through a lot because we were "supposed to tithe no matter what".

I tithed willingly and with a good spirit. However, we just kept getting deeper and deeper in debt. Every time we turned around, we had problems arising that needed money. I kept thinking that it was a test...to see if I would trust God and continue to tithe. I'd keep tithing, and we'd just keep getting worse off. This wasn't a short-term thing either...it was over the course of years.

We never received that "miracle check in the mail", the "God will make your car last longer", and there was no reprieve from the medical problems in our family. It finally reached a breaking point. Either God lied about tithing, or something was wrong elsewhere. I finally decided to study about tithing...from God's word...not from what I'd been told. It took a while for me to accept what I found.

At one point, even after I had discovered what God's word says, I was still struggling. Tithing had become so ingrained into my belief. My wife asked me if we were still going to tithe the upcoming Sunday. We had again been slammed by several things needing money that week. I sat there...thinking about it...and though I had discovered the truth, I said, "We're still going to tithe." So, my family went without needs, and bills weren't paid. Even after discovering the truth, it took me a while to accept that what I had been told for so long, what had been preached as truth for so long, and what I had believed for so long...wasn't biblical.

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My wife and I were voted out of a church membership because of our teaching against the "scriptural tithe"

 

Funny thing,... What we taught concerning God's holy tithe was in perfect harmony with God's written Word.  It is their teaching that is against the "Scriptural tithe."

 

Sadly, so many are conditioned and brainwashed by the monetary tithe requirement lie, that they only see the tithe passages through the tainted lens of their denominational religious leaders.

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On ‎9‎/‎25‎/‎2015‎ ‎12‎:‎10‎:‎55‎, Standing Firm In Christ said:

It has been said by many that in the story of the widow who put her last two mites in the Temple Treasury was being commended by Jesus after she did so.

I am not so sure this was the case.  Notice:

Mark 12:38-44 And he said unto them in his doctrine, BEWARE OF THE SCRIBES, which love to go in long clothing, and love salutations in the marketplaces, And the chief seats in the synagogues, and the uppermost rooms at feasts: WHICH DEVOUR WIDOWS HOUSES, and for a pretence make long prayers: these shall receive greater damnation. And Jesus sat over against the treasury, and beheld how the people cast money into the treasury: and many that were rich cast in much. And there came a certain poor widow, and she threw in two mites, which make a farthing. And he called unto him his disciples, and saith unto them, Verily I say unto you, That this poor widow hath cast more in, than all they which have cast into the treasury: For all they did cast in of their abundance; but she of her want did cast in all that she had, even all her living.

If one reads the text in context, (beginning at verse 39) one will see Jesus was warning of religious leaders who, "rob widow's houses".  Then, He sits against a wall across from the Treasury.  Lo and behold, a widow comes and drops all her living into the Treasury. 

What I see in that text is Jesus pointing out a destitute women has just been robbed, not that He was commending her.  Her money could have purchased some needed things that she lacked, but she put it in the Treasury?  Why? 

The Scribes, the LawMakers, had demanded her needed money.

I never got that from the passage. I always thought she was giving her all in faith; a cheerful giver, holding nothing back, truly trusting God to meet her needs, "worshipping in spirit and in truth". She had very little to give, but hers was MORE, because she gave all she had, the Bible says..

Edited by heartstrings

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6 hours ago, No Nicolaitans said:

While I'm thankful for Bro. Alan's testimony that he has never used Malachi 3:10 as a proof text for Christian tithing...and his testimony that he agrees that Christians aren't commanded to tithe...such a testimonial is few and far between. At least it is in my area.

In my area (and MANY other areas that I know of), pastors and teachers use any and every "tithing" passage to say that we are to tithe today. Not only that, they pull out God's command to Israel for "firstfruits" as proof that Christians are to tithe on their gross income. Their justification is that God wants your firstfruits. They haven't even studied enough to know that Israel's command for their firstfruits was completely seperate from the command(s) to tithe. God wanted Israel to offer their firstfruits AND their tithes.

Why do we get so upset when someone uses scripture to justify a false doctrine? Such as, Hagee's false doctrine about salvation for the Jews. We get upset about the false doctrine concerning losing salvation. We get upset about SDA's false doctrine about keeping the sabbath and other commands. We get upset about women pastors. We get upset about people who deny the Trinity. We get upset about the prosperity gospel. We get upset about people who promote hyper-grace. We get upset about people who put down the KJV. We get upset about every false doctrine out there (and rightly so)...but tithing gets a pass...even though it's a false doctrine for today's church.

If you want to see whether Christians are supposed to tithe today, it requires a little study...but it's very simple. Look for this...who, what, where, why, and when.

  1. Who was to tithe?
  2. What was to be tithed?
  3. Where were they to tithe?
  4. Why were they to tithe? (In other words, what were their tithes to be used for?)
  5. When were they to tithe?

You'll have to read more than just the verse where tithing is mentioned. Such as, Malachi 3:10...you'll need to read the entire book of Malachi to find out who God was saying was robbing him of tithes.

After you have discovered the answers to the who, what, where, why and when of tithing, look to see where God ever changed who, what, where, why, and when. I'll go ahead and give the answer. The who, what, where, why, and when has been changed...but not by God or his word.

Now look to see what the New Testament says about our giving...using the same who, what, where, why, and when. Also, don't be shocked when you realize the answers. Today's church has added a lot to what God's word says and "requires" about New Testament giving.

Now...with all of that said...I also believe that if a person desires to give 10% (or more) of their income, that's wonderful...as long as it comes from THEIR heart instead of a pastor or teacher saying we are supposed to, or God will send the Devourer to get his tithe anyway.

Which brings up another false doctrine often promoted about church members "tithing"...used to scare people into tithing.

God's gonna get his tithe one way or another!

Such as...

  1. You might end up in the hospital, and you'll have to pay your tithe then!
  2. Your car might break down, and you'll have to pay your tithe then!
  3. Your children might get sick, and you'll have to pay your tithe then!

It preaches really good! Except for the fact that God's not getting "your tithe" in such scenarios. The hospital is getting your money. The mechanic or parts store is getting your money. The doctor and pharmacy are getting your money...not God.

 

Surprisingly, those who make these threats about God will get the tithe don't believe that giving to the needy or missionaries counts as giving to God, they believe the tithe is only for the general fund of the church. In addition to giving to the church, I also give to the needy and missionaries. For the most part, I have NOT practiced the tithe but rather grace giving from my heart, and I have never had any financial problems, and none of these threats have happened to me. I am proof that these threats the Pastors make are not true.

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