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Right and Wrong


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A customer, in this case a church, asked me to provide them an electric sign with digital LED units. I designed the artwork and subbed the sign out to another manufacturer(A) to build  and they, in turn, purchased the two LED modules from an LED manufacturer(B). Well. 6 weeks later the church rep called and said one of the units was malfunctioning and sent me a photo. I called "manufacturer A" who passed it off to manufacturer B saying that they couldn't fix it. Manufacturer B told me I would have to take more photos of the sign and fill out a form including model numbers, serial numbers etc. and a description of the problem. I did and they sent a replacement LED module and told me it would be one of two modules on the sign but they couldn't say for sure. So I took the module to the jobsite, climbed up there, dismantled the sign again, unplugged all the wires and then had to remove two circuit boards, a capacitor, parallel port connection, put them on the new board and test the sign. But the sign still didn't work right. So I had to tear it apart again and this time change the main LED module by removing the "brain" and all the other stuff. That time it worked. In all I made three trips to the jobsite (60 miles) and incurred 6 hours of labor. I couldn't rightfully charge the church for the 6 hours of travel and labor, but both manufacturers are going to let me eat it. Do you think that is right?

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I think you should push it with the manufacturers, and let them know if there is not satisfactory compensation made for your rework of their shoddy product, you will both cease using them for your business, and also pass on to all your church-related associates not to use them, as they are unreliable.  And do it in writing, by mail or email so you can keep a copy. The workman is worthy of his hire.

I once bought a $700.00 Kyocera laser printer/copier. When it arrived, the copies all would have a big black spot in the middle of the page. I figured it was the cartridge, so I bought a new cartridge and it kept doing it. I opened the unit and found the rubber imager had a big hole punched in it. I contacted Kyocera about it, and was told, 'Sorry, the part is not under the warranty, as it is a part that goes with normal wear." I told them that it was a brand new unit, but they said, 'Sorry, can't help.' So, I sent an email to the company and told them in no uncertain terms, politely, though, that I was shocked at how poorly I was treated, that I had always had great success with Kyocera products, (the truth), and that because they would not take responsibility for their NEW unit, I would no longer be using their products and would tell all my fellow preachers, (yeah, I know about 5!) not to use their items either. Yeah. Took about three hours and I received a phone call from high management apologizing, and they sent me paperwork so I could take it to a local repair place and have it fixed for free.

Edited by Ukulelemike
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I would feel responsible if I were in their shoes. I have about decided to quit purchasing anymore electric signs manufactured by others. The last one I bought was from a different company altogether. When I uncrated it at the shop the fluorescent tubes would not light up. The company sent another ballast but it still wouldn't work, again they sent another; same thing.  So I started dismantling the wire raceways, ended up removing both end retainers, and low and behold discovered that some half wit had tried to cram six (6) wires into one of those tiny, orange, all-plastic wire nuts: two or three of the wires had simply fell out of it. Brand new sign and this was supposed to be a "UL" listed cabinet. I'm not a licensed electrician but I have enough horse sense not to do something that dumb, So I twisted on the proper size, the sign lit right up, and delivered it to my customer, but lost them as a repeat customer; most likely because of the delay. That fiasco is why I went with the company I'm dealing with now. 

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I don't know about sign work but in FL electrical work is required by law to be warrantied for 1 year, parts and labor. For that reason, you couldn't bill the church anyway (of course, like you, I wouldn't consider this a customer chargeable job anyway). The defective parts were installed by company A therefore they ought to receive the bill with a reminder that word of mouth and social media can make or break a companies' reputation faster than a lawsuit can (and for less money). They, in turn should seek redress with their supplier (company B). That's the normal chain of command. Remember also that FL provides for mediation in such cases to avoid bogging down the court system (or at least they did as of 2007 when I left the state).

Edited by OLD fashioned preacher
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  • 2 weeks later...
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I don't know about sign work but in FL electrical work is required by law to be warrantied for 1 year, parts and labor. For that reason, you couldn't bill the church anyway (of course, like you, I wouldn't consider this a customer chargeable job anyway). The defective parts were installed by company A therefore they ought to receive the bill with a reminder that word of mouth and social media can make or break a companies' reputation faster than a lawsuit can (and for less money). They, in turn should seek redress with their supplier (company B). That's the normal chain of command. Remember also that FL provides for mediation in such cases to avoid bogging down the court system (or at least they did as of 2007 when I left the state).

Like Old Fashioned....I have been an electrician in the State of Florida for about 7 years....(Journeyman liscensed).................

And I'd tell you, he's absolutely right.

This suggestion may sound bad to you, but, as a business practice, I would suggest you charge more if you are attempting to be overly competitive.

Problems like this WILL happen, and, it'll be your job to simply make it work as you are the proxy.
 

In a WAY....you have to sort of "eat it"....but....that needs to be taken into consideration when it comes to pricing.  If you were the cheapest contractor they called.....then you simply didn't charge enough.  And I say that as an electrician who has both made and LOST A LOT of money when bidding a job.  

My guess is....(since I don't know what a "brain" is) lol....that again....Old Fashioned's advice for "culpability" in this matter is correct......I TEND to think that "Company A" is the real demon and not "Company B"................

But I don't think anyone can be sure...really.

Sometimes....bad things just "happen" inasmuch as building codes and practices (ESPECIALLY with electrical) change so often that if the Church Building was more than 15 years old......there's almost no way to know.... Ask Old Fashioned how much "arc-fault protection" and even sharing neutrals on a GFI protected circuit changes EVERYTHING.....!!!!!!

You have to account for that.

 

Manufacturers are "up to date"....but buildings aren't...and if you are relying on a 25 year old building's electrical supply....you may be out of luck......you'd think not much has changed, but in electrical, it does and it's that fast.

I bid jobs and I lose them to lower bidders ALL THE TIME....

But, they quite often call me back to "fix" whatever it was..... <----that doesn't mean they did it poorly, it MAY mean they bid for a perfect scenario)....I don't bid for perfect scenarios. I bid jobs assuming there will probably be some complications.  If man-hours of labour are in account, than you should (at say, $20.00 a man-hour)....perfectly reasonable...have bid $120 more than any competitor you may have.

It happens sometimes, and (only from what you have shared) this seems like no one is wittingly at fault.  It's just part of the job. 

I think O.F.P. is basically in the right ball-park as far as what is "right", but, you aren't cheating anyone........................

 

PLEASE, PLEASE, PLEASE, insist on proper and fair recompense for your labour....you are as entitled to compensation as anyone else...

For the scripture saith, Thou shalt not muzzle the ox that treadeth out the corn. And, The labourer is worthy of his reward.

Let's assume you're not cheating anybody, and neither of the manufacturers are doing so wittingly.....sometimes, you have to compensate for the unforeseeable........

That drives up costs.....bid accordingly.

 

 

Edited by Heir of Salvation
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No, It wouldn't be right to bill the church because I sold them a new, working sign and it malfunctioned after only 6 weeks. I think it's my wakeup call to get out of electric signs altogether. I've built one myself, sold and installed several more manufactured by others, serviced and repaired more than I can count, but these last two burnt me.  The profit margin of reselling them isn't so great because the "wholesalers" want retail price. Then when the thing tears up, the little guy is stuck in the middle holding the bag. I like manufacturing my own stuff.

 I already use a CNC and am just finishing up the safety features, limit switches and e-stops on this foam cutter which will be used to make monument signs and architectural accents. Lord willing, I'm going to specialize in non-electric 3D signs from now on. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=U1d8KZKKBhI

 

 

Edited by heartstrings
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Heir of Salvation:

I'm not getting into any details of disagreement concerning a few statements you made lest I derail Heartstrings thread.

I don't want to remind you, however, that in FL you cannot advertise, bid on nor conduct business for hire as electrical contractor without an ER or EC license. To qualify for either of those you must have a Master Electrician license not Journeyman.

If you seek out and perform side work -- that's your concern. I'm just advising -- don't advertise.

Edited by OLD fashioned preacher
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I am not sure of the details you are facing but I learned something from a Christian lawyer years ago when faced with questionable situation. He told me to write a letter to the offending party stating the facts clearly and concisely. Then I could request a reasonable solution/compromise. I then said in the letter if we could not reach an agreement I would "consider further action". As a salutation put c c Joe Moe Attorney at law. I then certified the letter with a return receipt requested so they would have to sign for it at the post office. The only thing I was doing was sending my Christian brother/lawyer a copy of the letter I wrote. The "further action " could mean anything to them imaginations can be active.

Both times I have done this the other party was cooperative ( I think they thought I was going to take legal action which I was not). The fact that there was a lawyer mentioned and they had to sign was intimidating. 

I have to say my situations were pretty cut and dried. I guess I may have been a little deceptive and the best way is open honest communication with the other party.  I pray these companies will work with you.

 

Edited by 2ndTimothy
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