Jump to content
  • Welcome to Online Baptist

    Free to join.

MountainChristian

Jesus' coming Kingdom on land.

Recommended Posts

19 hours ago, Alan said:

Brethren,

Pastor Markle brought out an extremely acute observation, and question to Invicta, that needs to be answered. I think Pastor Markle is awaiting the answer (so am I).

Also, if you check out the words of the Lord Jesus as spoken in John 18:36 the word, "now," is taken out of some of the new versions of the Bible. Methiks Pastor Markle has, "hit the mark," on this issue.  :goodpost:

Alan 

 

Don't panic.  I don't rush to answer fatuous questions I will reply in due course.  

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
17 hours ago, Genevanpreacher said:

Just a heads up here fellas...Bro. David is 5 hours ahead of us here in the U.S.

I am sure he will get to it when he can.

And no, Alan, Pastor Markle has not hit the mark. Just show a fellow brother a little patience, please.

Yes, like 3 mods do take it out, where others use a different phrasing of the same meaning, and all the rest do use it.

Not much to support any conspiratorial MV issue.

The important thing is 'what does Markle think it means?', which implies something of major importance.

Evidently.

Brethren,

For a person to say that taking out the the word "now,' from the very lips of the Lord Jesus by these modern translations is, "a different phrasing of the same meaning, and all the rest do use it," is incorrect. And, to say, "Not much to support any conspiratorial MV issue" is also incorrect. It is not a "conspiratorial" issue, it is a violation of the very words of the scripture.

Pastor Markle has indeed "hit the mark" in his acute observation.

The deliberate taking out of the word, "now" by these modern translations is in complete unbelief of the doctrine of the coming, literal Kingdom of the Lord Jesus as prophesied by the prophets and revealed in Revelation 20:4-6

Furthermore, it is in deliberate violation of the warning given by the Holy Spirit in Revelation 22:18 and 19, "For I testify unto every man that heareth the words of the prophecy of this book, If any man shall add unto these things, God shall add unto him the plagues that are written in this book. And if any man shall take away from the prophecy of this book of thisprophecy, God shall take away his part of the book of life, and out of the holy city, and from the things which are written in this book."

These translators who take away the very words of the Lord Jesus, "now," in John 18;36 are in clear violation of this warning. These translators despise the very words of the Lord Jesus, the scriptures and the doctrine of the coming, visible kingdom of the Lord Jesus.

Alan

Edited by Alan
grammer twice

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

"But now is my Kingdom not from hence."

 

'But my Kingdom is not from hence."

 

There is most assuredly a difference.  The word "now" indicates a specific time frame.  The present time in which Christ Jesus was speaking.  This leaves toom for a coming Kingdom,... a Kingdom that the Word of God declares is to come.

 

Why would Jesus even teach His Disciples to pray, "Thy Kingdom come" if His Kingdom would not be established on Earth at a future time?

 

Hence, the necessity of the word "now" in John 18:36. 

Edited by Standing Firm In Christ

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
2 hours ago, Invicta said:

Don't panic.  I don't rush to answer fatuous questions I will reply in due course.  

I don't consider the very word of God "fatuous".  What one might have eaten for supper or the latest score of a sports game... those would be silly or inconsequential questions, but questions about the word of God are certainly not "fatuous".  I revere the word of God.  God certainly doesn't consider His word to be "fatuous":

In reading Matthew 5, Jesus spoke to His disciples in verses 13-16 about being the salt of the earth and the light of the world. Do you not find it interesting (I do) that directly after those verses (13-16) comes verses 17 & 18:
17 "Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets: I am not come to destroy, but to fulfil."
18  "For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled."

It strikes me as I read this that in order to be the salt and the light, Jesus includes the importance of accuracy. I have studied on "jots and tittles", what I found was not what I expected... the jot (yodh) is the smallest letter of the Hebrew alphabet. The "tittle" is a decorative mark drawn on the upper right edge of the "jot" (yodh).
You can see clearly why Jesus wouldn't want the letter (jot) to be taken out, but even more amazingly, He didn't want the "tittle" to be taken out either. Not even the smallest letter or even its decorative spur will ever disappear from the "God Breathed" Word until all is fulfilled. 

How important is it that God's word remain accurate? 
Here's how important the Word of God is: 

God has magnified His Word above His name!!! What a profound statement! (Psalm 138:2)
The Word of God (in Jesus) was made flesh and dwelt among men! (John 1:14)
How long has the Word been with God? Since the beginning! (John 1:1)

John 1:1 "In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God."
John 1:14 "14 And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us, (and we beheld his glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father,) full of grace and truth."
Psalm 138:2 "I will worship toward thy holy temple, and praise thy name for thy lovingkindness and for thy truth: for thou hast magnified thy word above all thy name."

So, according to God's own Holy Word... Jesus placed a very high emphasis on not only the jot but the tittle as well (the decorative tiny mark)... it leads me to feel confident, Jesus would not want entire words left out either. 

To be honest, the lack of reverence to the word of God (being called a fatuous question!) is a direct affront on the word of God and on God Himself.  I have been called many names in my lifetime, and have managed to overcome the hurt and/or anger (with God's help and grace). I have learned to turn the other cheek often times (not always, but again, I bring it to the Lord).  But one thing I cannot stand is someone mocking the word of God.The anger I feel in such circumstances (I believe) is a righteous anger.  It's not because of the offense towards myself, nor towards another brother or sister, that concerns me the most (although there is some concern about that as well). It's the direct affront on the holiness of God's word. If you chose that particular word to outrage those who believe the word of God says what  it means and means what it says... you have gotten your intended reaction. But I would be much more concerned with offending God than offending mankind. And it makes me wonder.... I could say much more... but then I would be feeding fleshy desires. And so I will finish this statement by saying I will pray for you, and most certainly not a fatuous prayer!

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
30 minutes ago, Ronda said:

I don't consider the very word of God "fatuous". 

You didn't read his comment right here.

No where did Invicta state that the word of God was 'fatuous'. He was in reference to Scotts question. Which sometimes seem to be fatuous, especially when the need to disqualify a coming answer arises.

The obvious has, once again, been supplanted by disagreement, before an answer to the question has even been replied to.

It is a wonder why people even come here for information anymore.

Reading is important to discussion on this forum, and if you're gonna respond in 'attitude', at least make sure to read the post you are gonna 'critique'.

30 minutes ago, Ronda said:

In reading Matthew 5, Jesus spoke to His disciples in verses 13-16 about being the salt of the earth and the light of the world. Do you not find it interesting (I do) that directly after those verses (13-16) comes verses 17 & 18:
17 "Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets: I am not come to destroy, but to fulfil."
18  "For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled."*

It strikes me as I read this that in order to be the salt and the light, Jesus includes the importance of accuracy. I have studied on "jots and tittles", what I found was not what I expected... the jot (yodh) is the smallest letter of the Hebrew alphabet. The "tittle" is a decorative mark drawn on the upper right edge of the "jot" (yodh).
You can see clearly why Jesus wouldn't want the letter (jot) to be taken out, but even more amazingly, He didn't want the "tittle" to be taken out either. Not even the smallest letter or even its decorative spur will ever disappear from the "God Breathed" Word until all is fulfilled. 

Your verses here are the usual 'hype' from 'unstudied' content, just rattled off from previous teachers 'of the word', that teach a bunch of mumbo jumbo and tell the sheeple what to believe instead of just accepting the pure word of God from HIS writings.

*Please read the bold type that I highlighted...please?

The text is speaking about Jesus Christ fulfilling the sacrifices of the Law to take care of our sin issue.

That has nothing to do with whether a text of a Bible is missing some words.

 

 

Edited by Genevanpreacher

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
On 11/11/2015, 9:51:02, Pastor Scott Markle said:

Concerning this verse I wish to ask you a question -- What is the meaning of the word "now" in the closing line of John 18:36?

The response from "Invicta" was: " Don't panic.  I don't rush to answer fatuous questions I will reply in due course.  "

 

Who is not reading the comment right? 

I then reply with scripture from the inerrant word of God.

You reply: "Your verses here are the usual 'hype' from 'unstudied' content, just rattled off from previous teachers 'of the word', that teach a bunch of mumbo jumbo and tell the sheeple what to believe instead of just accepting the pure word of God from HIS writings."

The Word of God is neither mumbo jumbo, nor is it inaccurate.  I didn't base my answer on what any previous teacher taught, other than the Lord Jesus being the teacher. I'm sorry if the Word of God offends you. 

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
1 minute ago, Ronda said:

The response from "Invicta" was: " Don't panic.  I don't rush to answer fatuous questions I will reply in due course.  "

Who is not reading the comment right? 

I then reply with scripture from the inerrant word of God.

You reply: "Your verses here are the usual 'hype' from 'unstudied' content, just rattled off from previous teachers 'of the word', that teach a bunch of mumbo jumbo and tell the sheeple what to believe instead of just accepting the pure word of God from HIS writings."

The Word of God is neither mumbo jumbo, nor is it inaccurate.  I didn't base my answer on what any previous teacher taught, other than the Lord Jesus being the teacher. I'm sorry if the Word of God offends you. 

Yes, you did reply with scripture. Scripture that does not say what you mean. And that is the norm with people that were taught a certain way about these verses.

I know! I taught them for years that way, and I was following what men of God taught me!

So don't go saying you were taught by Jesus, he said what he meant, and what you, and men I have known, teach, is not what Jesus said in these verses.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Very interesting.  God's word doesn't mean what it says? It only means what YOU say it says? Read the verses I quoted. WHY would Matthew 15: 5:13-16 not have anything to do with Matthew 5:17-18?   If they are supposedly irrelevant to each other, WHY would Jesus have spoken them right afterwards? 

Edited by Ronda
15 erroneous, 5 was the chapter previously quoted

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Ronda,

Amen and amen.

Alan

2 hours ago, Standing Firm In Christ said:

"But now is my Kingdom not from hence."

 

'But my Kingdom is not from hence."

 

There is most assuredly a difference.  The word "now" indicates a specific time frame.  The present time in which Christ Jesus was speaking.  This leaves toom for a coming Kingdom,... a Kingdom that the Word of God declares is to come.

 

Why would Jesus even teach His Disciples to pray, "Thy Kingdom come" if His Kingdom would not be established on Earth at a future time?

 

Hence, the necessity of the word "now" in John 18:36

Standing Firm in Christ,

Amen and amen. Keep up the good work. Your interpretation is entirely correct and appropriate.

Alan

Edited by Alan
spelling

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
1 hour ago, Genevanpreacher said:

*Please read the bold type that I highlighted...please?

The text is speaking about Jesus Christ fulfilling the sacrifices of the Law to take care of our sin issue.

That has nothing to do with whether a text of a Bible is missing some words.

 

 

Your interpretation of the question of Pilate and the answer of the Lord Jesus is not accurate. The context is kingship in a coming kingdom; not salvation. 

Again, when you said, "That has nothing to do with a text of a Bible is missing some words." Whatever the subject matter, whether for salvation or the coming kingdom, that is the issue: the taking out of a word, a very important word, from the mouth of the Lord Jesus as recorded in the scriptures. This is the reason why Ronda responded the way she did and I commend her for it.

Alan

Edited by Alan
spelling

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
On 11/11/2015, 10:35:26, Invicta said:

So how was Abraham saved?  By the law, by circumcision or by faith?

Genesis 15:1 After these things the word of the LORD came unto Abram in a vision, saying, Fear not, Abram: I am thy shield, and thy exceeding great reward.

Genesis 15:2 And Abram said, Lord GOD, what wilt thou give me, seeing I go childless, and the steward of my house is this Eliezer of Damascus?

Genesis 15:3 And Abram said, Behold, to me thou hast given no seed: and, lo, one born in my house is mine heir.

Genesis 15:4 And, behold, the word of the LORD came unto him, saying, This shall not be thine heir; but he that shall come forth out of thine own bowels shall be thine heir.

Genesis 15:5 And he brought him forth abroad, and said, Look now toward heaven, and tell the stars, if thou be able to number them: and he said unto him, So shall thy seed be.

Genesis 15:6 And he believed in the LORD; and he counted it to him for righteousness.
----------
Romans 4:1 What shall we say then that Abraham our father, as pertaining to the flesh, hath found?

Romans 4:2 For if Abraham were justified by works, he hath whereof to glory; but not before God.

Romans 4:3 For what saith the scripture? Abraham believed God, and it was counted unto him for righteousness.

God counted Abram’s belief in the LORD for RIGHTEOUSNESS. It really never says that Abraham was saved…but counted as “righteous”.

---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

How is the Term Israel

Used in the New Testament?

Covenant and reformed theologians believe that New Testament believers, including saved Gentiles, are the true Israel of God. Is it really Biblical to refer to Gentile believers as Israelites? Has God created a “new Israel” that is composed of believing Jews and Gentiles of this present age?

Let us search the Scriptures to see if these things be so. We will examine the 73 times in the New Testament where the term “Israel” is used. How does the New Testament use this term? Is it ever used of the church in general or saved Gentiles in particular?

The following article is taken from the book Israelology–the Missing Link in Systematic Theology, by Arnold G. Fruchtenbaum. It is used with his permission.

CONCLUSION

For Dispensational Israelology, the conclusion is that the Church is never called, and is not, a “spiritual Israel” or a “new Israel.” The term “Israel” is either used of the nation or the people as a whole, or of the believing remnant within. It is never used of the Church in general or of Gentile believers in particular.

The Israel of God of Galatians 6:16

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Very good study, Linda! Those who attempt to steal the blessings of Israel (yet strangely deny any of the curses) have to twist, spiritualize, and even omit massive amounts of scripture to do so. They pluck out a verse or two, entirely out of context, and apply it to themselves (when the contextual scripture proves their theory wrong). I am amazed by the people who refuse to believe that God said what He meant, and meant what He said.

Romans 11 speaks clearly to the fact that  God has not permanently cast off Israel. He has future plans for them. Not only do the replacement theologists throw out huge chunks of OT scripture, they also have to throw out Romans 11 (and others) as well.  I revere the word of God. What's more, I fear God, and wouldn't knowingly twist scripture to mean something other than what it clearly states. 

Again, Excellent study, Linda!

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
17 minutes ago, Alan said:

Your interpretation of the question of Pilate and the answer of the Lord Jesus is not accurate. The context is kingship in a coming kingdom; not salvation. 

Again, when you said, "That has nothing to do with a text of a Bible is missing some words." Whatever the subject matter, whether for salvation or the coming kingdom, that is the issue: the taking out of a word, a very important word, from the mouth of the Lord Jesus as recorded in the scriptures. This is the reason why Ronda responded the way she did and I commend her for it.

Alan

One unfounded opinion, Alan. Sorry to hear this of you.

Just because you want something to be in a text, doesn't mean it is.

 

36 minutes ago, Ronda said:

Very interesting.  God's word doesn't mean what it says? It only means what YOU say it says? Read the verses I quoted. WHY would Matthew 15: 13-16 not have anything to do with Matthew 5:17-18?   If they are supposedly irrelevant to each other, WHY would Jesus have spoken them right afterwards? 

Huh? When did I say that?

But I do find it humorous that you think they do. Once again...read your own reference below please.

Matthew 15 - 

13 But he answered and said, Every plant, which my heavenly Father hath not planted, shall be rooted up.

14 Let them alone: they be blind leaders of the blind. And if the blind lead the blind, both shall fall into the ditch.

15 Then answered Peter and said unto him, Declare unto us this parable.

16 And Jesus said, Are ye also yet without understanding?

 

1 minute ago, Ronda said:

Very good study, Linda! Those who attempt to steal the blessings of Israel (yet strangely deny any of the curses) have to twist, spiritualize, and even omit massive amounts of scripture to do so. They pluck out a verse or two, entirely out of context, and apply it to themselves (when the contextual scripture proves their theory wrong). I am amazed by the people who refuse to believe that God said what He meant, and meant what He said.

Romans 11 speaks clearly to the fact that  God has not permanently cast off Israel. He has future plans for them. Not only do the replacement theologists throw out huge chunks of OT scripture, they also have to throw out Romans 11 (and others) as well.  I revere the word of God. What's more, I fear God, and wouldn't knowingly twist scripture to mean something other than what it clearly states. 

Again, Excellent study, Linda!

You have plenty to learn in making statements like this in a public forum.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
34 minutes ago, Alan said:

Your interpretation of the question of Pilate and the answer of the Lord Jesus is not accurate. The context is kingship in a coming kingdom; not salvation. 

Again, when you said, "That has nothing to do with a text of a Bible is missing some words." Whatever the subject matter, whether for salvation or the coming kingdom, that is the issue: the taking out of a word, a very important word, from the mouth of the Lord Jesus as recorded in the scriptures. This is the reason why Ronda responded the way she did and I commend her for it.

Alan

Ok, we are back to the word "now".

You are mixing things up here Alan. I never said Pilate's convo with Christ Jesus had to do with salvation.

Please tell me where I did, I looked over my posts and cannot find such a thing.

Edited by Genevanpreacher

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
2 hours ago, Genevanpreacher said:

*Please read the bold type that I highlighted...please?

The text is speaking about Jesus Christ fulfilling the sacrifices of the Law to take care of our sin issue.

That has nothing to do with whether a text of a Bible is missing some words.

 

 

You said the above: "The text is speaking about Jesus Christ fulfilling the sacrifices of the Law to take care of our sin issue." That, referring to the salvation of our soul, is not the context. The context of the conversation of Christ and Pilate is the coming kingdom.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
14 minutes ago, Alan said:

You said the above: "The text is speaking about Jesus Christ fulfilling the sacrifices of the Law to take care of our sin issue." That, referring to the salvation of our soul, is not the context. The context of the conversation of Christ and Pilate is the coming kingdom.

I see your confusion. This was in reference to Matthew 5:17,18, not the other reference.

Read Ronda's previous statement with my response, and you will see what I mean.

  2 hours ago, Ronda said:

In reading Matthew 5, Jesus spoke to His disciples in verses 13-16 about being the salt of the earth and the light of the world. Do you not find it interesting (I do) that directly after those verses (13-16) comes verses 17 & 18:
17 "Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets: I am not come to destroy, but to fulfil."
18  "For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled."*

It strikes me as I read this that in order to be the salt and the light, Jesus includes the importance of accuracy. I have studied on "jots and tittles", what I found was not what I expected... the jot (yodh) is the smallest letter of the Hebrew alphabet. The "tittle" is a decorative mark drawn on the upper right edge of the "jot" (yodh).
You can see clearly why Jesus wouldn't want the letter (jot) to be taken out, but even more amazingly, He didn't want the "tittle" to be taken out either. Not even the smallest letter or even its decorative spur will ever disappear from the "God Breathed" Word until all is fulfilled. 

 

Edited by Genevanpreacher

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
13 minutes ago, Genevanpreacher said:

I see your confusion. This was in reference to Matthew 5:17,18, not the other reference.

Read Ronda's previous statement with my response, and you will see what I mean.

In reading Matthew 5, Jesus spoke to His disciples in verses 13-16 about being the salt of the earth and the light of the world. Do you not find it interesting (I do) that directly after those verses (13-16) comes verses 17 & 18:
17 "Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets: I am not come to destroy, but to fulfil."
18  "For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled."*

It strikes me as I read this that in order to be the salt and the light, Jesus includes the importance of accuracy. I have studied on "jots and tittles", what I found was not what I expected... the jot (yodh) is the smallest letter of the Hebrew alphabet. The "tittle" is a decorative mark drawn on the upper right edge of the "jot" (yodh).
You can see clearly why Jesus wouldn't want the letter (jot) to be taken out, but even more amazingly, He didn't want the "tittle" to be taken out either. Not even the smallest letter or even its decorative spur will ever disappear from the "God Breathed" Word until all is fulfilled. 

 

Genevanpreacher,

Thank you for clarifying the issue and the confusion as to exactly what we are to referring to now.

As you may, or may not have noticed, I did not respond to any of the posts concerning the Matthew 5:13-16 and the 17-18 previous statements. I did this as I felt both of you and Ronda had valid points and I did not want to interfere with that discussion; but just sit back and read.

When the Lord Jesus said, "Think not that I am not come to destroy the law, or the prophets: I am not come to destroy, but to fulfil."  Matthew 5:17 can be applicable to all of the prophecies concerning salvation and future prophecy. So, according to that context, I have no bone of contention with you.

Alan

Edited by Alan
forgot a word

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

The ss, and the Jesuits and many others specialized in death, like the horse of the Apocalypse called death, it was given power over a large part of the earth, death was its sole purpose( the previous horse brought war which included death) hell followed with it to cover the evidence and hide it îf possible, but all will be discovered.

Rome and co do genocide of those whom they perceive to be Gods people, then there academics team work from that point onward to cover it from the face of the earth using every lie under the sun.the Jesuits the ss and skull n bones all have the skull as symbol.

or in other words my interpretation of the rider called death. but its a footnote really.

 

Edited by Old-Pilgrim
un duplication!

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

 

15 minutes ago, Alan said:

Genevanpreacher,

Thank you for clarifying the issue and the confusion as to exactly what we are to referring to now.

As you may, or may not have noticed, I did not respond to any of the posts concerning the Matthew 5:13-16 and the 17-18 previous statements. I did this as I felt both of you and Ronda had valid points and I did not want to interfere with that discussion; but just sit back and read.

When the Lord Jesus said, "Think not that I am not come to destroy the law, or the prophets: I am not come to destroy, but to fulfil."  Matthew 5:17 can be applicable to all of the prophecies concerning salvation and future prophecy. So, according to that context, I have no bone of contention with you.

Alan

While I do agree that Matthew 5:17 clearly states that YES Jesus has fulfilled the prophesies in salvation in verse 17

I do not agree that "all has been fulfilled" in verse 18. Not one jot or tittle should pass until when? Till heaven an earth pass. AND Till all be fulfilled.

Heaven and earth have not passed away, and ALL has not been fulfilled, as there are many prophecies yet to be fulfilled in the end days. 

Matthew 5:17 "Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets: I am not come to destroy, but to fulfil."
18 "For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled." 

Here is were I do have (yet another) point of contention:

2 hours ago, Genevanpreacher said:

from the law, till all be fulfilled."*

 

2 hours ago, Genevanpreacher said:

*Please read the bold type that I highlighted...please?

The text is speaking about Jesus Christ fulfilling the sacrifices of the Law to take care of our sin issue.

Genevan took the phrase:  "from the law, till all be fulfilled"   which is part of verse 18

He then stated that verse 18 is "speaking about Jesus Christ fulfilling the sacrifices of the Law to take care of our sin issue."

I contend that yes, verse 17 clearly speaks to Christ fulfilling the sacrifices of the law to take care of our sin issue.  Jesus came (the first time) as the sacrificial lamb, the perfect blood atonement for the salvation which the law could not do.

However, verse 18 does not. Heaven and earth have not passed away and ALL has not (yet) been fulfilled. 

18  "For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled." 

SO please clarify for me, Alan, since you said you have no bone of contention with Genevan.... Do you believe that ALL has been fulfilled? And that heaven and earth have passed away? (as shown in verse 18) Because there are SEVERAL prophecies which have not yet been fulfilled.  
 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
54 minutes ago, Alan said:

Genevanpreacher,

Thank you for clarifying the issue and the confusion as to exactly what we are to referring to now.

As you may, or may not have noticed, I did not respond to any of the posts concerning the Matthew 5:13-16 and the 17-18 previous statements. I did this as I felt both of you and Ronda had valid points and I did not want to interfere with that discussion; but just sit back and read.

When the Lord Jesus said, "Think not that I am not come to destroy the law, or the prophets: I am not come to destroy, but to fulfil."  Matthew 5:17 can be applicable to all of the prophecies concerning salvation and future prophecy. So, according to that context, I have no bone of contention with you.

Alan

Ronda,

Please look at my last sentence, I said: " ... Matthew 5:17 can be applicable to all of the prophecies concerning salvation and future prophecy." That is true and in agreement with you Ronda. All of the prophecies have not been fulfilled that were prophesied by the Old Testament prophets, nor by the Lord Jesus in Matthew 24, nor by the Apostle Paul, Peter nor Jude. All of these prophecies are yet to be fulfilled.

With the  context of salvation I have no bone of contention with Genevanpreacher. All of the prophecies concerning Christ and His cross for the redemption of our soul has been fulfilled.

Now, our bone of contention is the coming literal kingdom on the earth. That prophecy has not been fulfilled and was what the conversation with Pilate in John 18:36 is talking about.

I hope this clarifies my posting.

Alan

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
43 minutes ago, Ronda said:

While I do agree that Matthew 5:17 clearly states that YES Jesus has fulfilled the prophesies in salvation in verse 17

I do not agree that "all has been fulfilled" in verse 18. Not one jot or tittle should pass until when? Till heaven an earth pass. AND Till all be fulfilled.

Heaven and earth have not passed away, and ALL has not been fulfilled, as there are many prophecies yet to be fulfilled in the end days. 

Matthew 5:17 "Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets: I am not come to destroy, but to fulfil."
18 "For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled." 

Here is were I do have (yet another) point of contention:

 

Genevan took the phrase:  "from the law, till all be fulfilled"   which is part of verse 18

He then stated that verse 18 is "speaking about Jesus Christ fulfilling the sacrifices of the Law to take care of our sin issue."

I contend that yes, verse 17 clearly speaks to Christ fulfilling the sacrifices of the law to take care of our sin issue.  Jesus came (the first time) as the sacrificial lamb, the perfect blood atonement for the salvation which the law could not do.

However, verse 18 does not. Heaven and earth have not passed away and ALL has not (yet) been fulfilled. 

18  "For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled." 

SO please clarify for me, Alan, since you said you have no bone of contention with Genevan.... Do you believe that ALL has been fulfilled? And that heaven and earth have passed away? (as shown in verse 18) Because there are SEVERAL prophecies which have not yet been fulfilled.  

First off, both verses are talking about the same thing.

Salvation attained through what Jesus Christ accomplished in fulfilling what was written FOR him and ABOUT him.

Let me explain -

The Law showed what Christ would accomplish in his sacrifice on the cross.

The Prophets spoke about what Christ fullfilled in describing the One who would accomplish the needs of the Law.

Both were fulfilled - Christ was who the Prophets described, and Christ sacrificed himself according to the letter of the Law.

Seems simple enough to understand in my thinking.

And, in my opinion, if that is a correct understanding, then all that info is good 'til heaven and earth pass away'.

The Savior and his sacrifice are good forever and for everyone.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
1 minute ago, Genevanpreacher said:

First off, both verses are talking about the same thing.

Salvation attained through what Jesus Christ accomplished in fulfilling what was written FOR him and ABOUT him.

Let me explain -

The Law showed what Christ would accomplish in his sacrifice on the cross.

The Prophets spoke about what Christ fullfilled in describing the One who would accomplish the needs of the Law.

Both were fulfilled - Christ was who the Prophets described, and Christ sacrificed himself according to the letter of the Law. Both, salvation and KIngship, were not fulfulled. The prophecies of the coming Kingdom, with the risen King David, and the literal prophecies concerning the restoration of the nation of Israel, in their own land, was not fulfilled on the Cross of Calvary, but we are awating the promised kingdom as discussed in this thread. Alan

Seems simple enough to understand in my thinking.

And, in my opinion, if that is a correct understanding, then all that info is good 'til heaven and earth pass away'.

The Savior and his sacrifice are good forever and for everyone.

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Join the conversation

You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.
Note: Your post will require moderator approval before it will be visible.

Guest
Reply to this topic...

×   Pasted as rich text.   Paste as plain text instead

  Only 75 emoji are allowed.

×   Your link has been automatically embedded.   Display as a link instead

×   Your previous content has been restored.   Clear editor

×   You cannot paste images directly. Upload or insert images from URL.

Loading...

  • Similar Content

    • By Brian Smedley
      Hi, my name is Brian Smedley and I want to say without Christ I am nothing . Through the Lord Jesus Christ do I have righteousness, not my righteousness, but his. I am presented to God through Jesus blood that flowed at Calvary for my sins and all of mankind's. John 3:16. For God so loved the world that he gave his only begotten son, that whosoever believeth  on him would not perish, but have everlasting life. 
    • By Brian Smedley
      Hi, my name is Brian Smedley and I want to say without Christ I am nothing . Through the Lord Jesus Christ do I have righteousness, not my righteousness, but his. I am presented to God through Jesus blood that flowed at Calvary for my sins and all of mankind's. John 3:16. For God so loved the world that he gave his only begotten son, that whosoever believeth  on him would not perish, but have everlasting life. 

    • By MountainChristian
      “Commandments of God”
      This phrase only appears three times in the Authorized King James Version.
      The first time this phrase is used it was Apostle Paul in his first letter to the Corinthians. “Circumcision is nothing, and uncircumcision is nothing, but the keeping of the commandments of God.”- 1Corinthians 7:19. How can Paul say keeping the commandments of God and not include circumcision?
      Let's do a little background work. Jehovah told Abraham to start the tradition of circumcision in Genesis 17, “And ye shall circumcise the flesh of your foreskin; and it shall be a token of the covenant betwixt me and you.” Later in the Law Jehovah told Moses it was one of the commandments, in Leviticus 12:3, “And in the eighth day the flesh of his foreskin shall be circumcised.”
      So we see it was part of God's commandments in the Law, but was those commandments replaced by God?
      In the book of John 14:15 we see Jesus telling us to keep his commandments. “If ye love me, keep my commandments.” In John 14:21 Jesus said, “He that hath my commandments, and keepeth them, he it is that loveth me: and he that loveth me shall be loved of my Father, and I will love him, and will manifest myself to him.” Again in John 15:10 Jesus said, “If ye keep my commandments, ye shall abide in my love; even as I have kept my Father's commandments, and abide in his love.”
      How do we know what commandments Jesus gave us to follow? Acts 1:1-4 “The former treatise have I made, O Theophilus, of all that Jesus began both to do and teach, Until the day in which he was taken up, after that he through the Holy Ghost had given commandments unto the apostles whom he had chosen: To whom also he shewed himself alive after his passion by many infallible proofs, being seen of them forty days, and speaking of the things pertaining to the kingdom of God: And, being assembled together with them, commanded them that they should not depart from Jerusalem, but wait for the promise of the Father, which, saith he, ye have heard of me.” 1 Corinthians 14:37 “If any man think himself to be a prophet, or spiritual, let him acknowledge that the things that I write unto you are the commandments of the Lord.” 1 Thessalonians 4:2 “For ye know what commandments we gave you by the Lord Jesus.”
      We see the phrase repeated the last two times by John in Revelation 12:17 “And the dragon was wroth with the woman, and went to make war with the remnant of her seed, which keep the commandments of God, and have the testimony of Jesus Christ.” Revelation 14:12 “Here is the patience of the saints: here are they that keep the commandments of God, and the faith of Jesus.”
      The 1st time the phase appears Paul is telling us it's not the Law or Torah. The Apostles was Jewish and they taught and kept the commandments of Jesus as God. Jesus even told us he fulfilled the Father's and we should keep his commandments. In the Revelation verses John tells us the men are Christians but over and over men say those are Law commandments. So why do some writers of Christian/Jewish Eschatology say the verses in Revelation mean the Law or Torah? My Sunday school teacher has given me some books on eschatology but none of them explain their reasoning. He is on vacation so I thought I would ask you guys and gals.
    • By MountainChristian
      John 3:13 And no man hath ascended up to heaven, but he that came down from heaven, even the Son of man which is in heaven.
      I have 2 questions. 1) Why was Jesus saying he was in heaven while standing on earth? 2) Where did Enoch and Elijah go if they didn't go to heaven?
    • By MountainChristian
      At the start of his ministry.
      Matthew 4:3 And when the tempter came to him, he said, If thou be the Son of God, command that these stones be made bread.
      Luke 4:3 And the devil said unto him, If thou be the Son of God, command this stone that it be made bread.
      Matthew 4:6 And saith unto him, If thou be the Son of God, cast thyself down: for it is written, He shall give his angels charge concerning thee: and in their hands they shall bear thee up, lest at any time thou dash thy foot against a stone.
      Luke 4:9 And he brought him to Jerusalem, and set him on a pinnacle of the temple, and said unto him, If thou be the Son of God, cast thyself down from hence: 
      At the end of his ministry. 
      Matthew 27:40 And saying, Thou that destroyest the temple, and buildest it in three days, save thyself. If thou be the Son of God, come down from the cross. 
      The devil never gave up, and now he is fighting against us.
      Ephesians 6:12 For we wrestle not against flesh and blood, but against principalities, against powers, against the rulers of the darkness of this world, against spiritual wickedness in high places.
       
  • Recently Browsing   0 members

    No registered users viewing this page.

  • Who's Online   2 Members, 0 Anonymous, 32 Guests (See full list)

Article Categories

About Us

Since 2001, Online Baptist has been an Independent Baptist website, and we exclusively use the King James Version of the Bible. We pride ourselves on a community that uplifts the Lord.

Contact Us

You can contact us using the following link. Contact Us or for questions regarding this website please contact @pastormatt or email James Foley at jfoley@sisqtel.net

Android App

Online Baptist has a custom App for all android users. You can download it from the Google Play store or click the following icon.

×
×
  • Create New...