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Jesus' coming Kingdom on land.


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11 minutes ago, Ronda said:

"Invicta": FOR us and TO us are 2 separate things. But if you can't see the difference... I won't bother to expound of the REST of 2nd Timothy 2... the context... since you are assured in your stand-alone verse.

You completely miss the point that Hebrews is addressed to those living at the time not to some supposed future generation, ad if you cannot see that then your apionion on 'rightly dividing' is worthless.

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On 12/18/2015 at 0:34 PM, Ronda said:


We can see that they would use Hebrews 6:4-6 as their supposed "proof" text in an erroneous assumption that those of us in the current dispensation of grace could "lose our salvation".

Hebrews 6:4-6 proves eternal security, it never describes losing salvation; for nobody can lose their salvation.  Once saved always saved.

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2 hours ago, Ronda said:

 

YES YES YES We CAN learn from Peter's writing (as well as Hebrews and James). But they are not written TO us because we do not need to follow a "faith PLUS works" doctrine, we are saved by grace in this dispensation.  Paul's writing pertain to THIS current age of grace...Paul's writing are written TO us (saved in this dispensation).  
 

1. Paul wrote Hebrews.

2. No one needs to follow a "faith PLUS works"  And nowhere in the bible is that taught.  The bible teaching is that we show we have faith by our works.  If you don't have works, you don't have faith.  

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50 minutes ago, Pastor Scott Markle said:

Eternal salvation and justification has NEVER been through faith AND works in ANY form of combination.

Eternal salvation and justification has ALWAYS been through faith ALONE.

Yes and no. Ultimately everyone is saved by the blood atonement of Christ only but the OT saints had to keep the law sacrifices until that atonement was made. This is what Paul meant in Romans 3:25. God's forbearance was him putting up with the sins of the past that were only temporarily covered by the sacrifices because he knew one day Christ would make the full and final sacrifice for sin . This would also explain why no one went to heaven when they died before the cross. The tabernacle of heaven had not yet been sprinkle with the blood of Christ.

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 Heb 10:11 And every priest standeth daily ministering and offering oftentimes the same sacrifices, which can never take away sins: 

 Heb 10:1 For the law having a shadow of good things to come, and not the very image of the things, can never with those sacrifices which they offered year by year continually make the comers thereunto perfect. 

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In Deuteronomy, the law was stated again for those who were about to enter the promised land. Then in chapters 27-30 (especially 27and 28), the results for both obedience and disobedience to the law are plainly stated...and it had NOTHING to do with salvation. 

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20 hours ago, Invicta said:

1. Paul wrote Hebrews.

2. No one needs to follow a "faith PLUS works"  And nowhere in the bible is that taught.  The bible teaching is that we show we have faith by our works.  If you don't have works, you don't have faith.  

First of all... to say (definitively) that "Paul wrote Hebrews" would be an error on your part. It is a hotly debated topic. Unless you presume to know more about it than such people as Martin Luther (who placed Hebrews along with with James, Jude, and Revelation, at the end of Luther's canon).  So it is conjecture to say Paul definitely wrote Hebrews. There may be reasons why a person could make an educated guess as to the authorship of Hebrews, but the fact is that Paul did not sign the epistle, and so it cannot be proven beyond a reasonable doubt.  

You are correct is stating that no-one needs to follow a faith plus works gospel, let me add the qualifier: IN THIS CURRENT AGE OF GRACE.

I believe there are SEVERAL instances in scripture where works is added to faith for salvation. We can clearly see by innumerable cases in the OT where they were required to perform the works of the law. However, in the New Testament, we also find verses which denote the possibility that certain works were required for certain people groups in certain dispensations. I won't bother to dig them all out, first of all because I want to talk about the importance of the Paul-ine gospel to the church age, and second, since you don't even see dispensations... you lump the entire bible together to perceive yourself as "everything good is applicable to you", no matter which dispensation (or people group) it refers to. 

The current dispensation (age of grace/church age) doesn't include the same "rules" as past nor future dispensations. Some believe the church age to be not only God's people today, but the only people God ever had or ever will have.
So they read the Bible passages and see the present-day church as being the total focus of all scripture. 
But they fail to realize that there will be people saved from before the great flood, from Old Testament Israel, from Gentile nations during the Old Testament as well.
Not only the past dispensations but the future dispensations they overlook and consider them to be part of this current age of grace.

There will be other dispensations, and other people saved, out of the future tribulation, and out of the future 1000 year reign of Christ on earth. 
None of those millions and millions of believers were or will be what we would call "the church age" believers. They had/will have different "rules" than we of this current dispensation do. While we (in the present church age) do hold a very special place, we are not the SOLE focus of all scripture. Nor are we the SOLE focus of all of the New Testament.

So what is applicable to the church age? We KNOW we are to follow Christ. Christ'c command to follow Him are numerous. On this I think we can all agree??? 

Matthew 4:19 "And he saith unto them, Follow me, and I will make you fishers of men."
Matthew 8:22 "But Jesus said unto him, Follow me; and let the dead bury their dead."
Matthew 10:38 "And he that taketh not his cross, and followeth after me, is not worthy of me."
Mark 8:34 "And when he had called the people unto him with his disciples also, he said unto them, Whosoever will come after me, let him deny himself, and take up his cross, and follow me."
John 10:27 "My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me"
John 12:26 "If any man serve me, let him follow me; and where I am, there shall also my servant be: if any man serve me, him will my Father honour."

A largely misunderstood fact of the New Testament is Paul’s command to believers to follow or imitate him. 
He issued this command several times throughout his epistles (letters). 
No other writer of Scripture issued such an command.
We do not find it with Peter, John, James, etc. in the New Testament.
Nor Moses or any of the prophets in the Old Testament.
The only other One to issue such a command was Jesus the Messiah, the Lord God Himself.
 
SO... How could Paul make such a claim?  Why was Paul unique in issuing this imperative? 
And more importantly, what did Paul mean by it?  Why did he command us to imitate him?

1 Corinthians 11:1  "Be ye followers of me, even as I also am of Christ."
 2 "Now I praise you, brethren, that ye remember me in all things, and keep the ordinances, as I delivered them to you."

Philippians 3:17 "Brethren, be followers together of me, and mark them which walk so as ye have us for an ensample."

2 Thessalonians 3:4 "And we have confidence in the Lord touching you, that ye both do and will do the things which we command you."
" 3:6 "Now we command you, brethren, in the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, that ye withdraw yourselves from every brother that walketh disorderly, and not after the tradition which he received of us."
" 3:9 "Not because we have not power, but to make ourselves an ensample unto you to follow us."

1 Cor. 4:16 "Wherefore I beseech you, be ye followers of me."

(I'm sure there are more) but the point is... why did Paul feel he could make such a claim as to follow him?
Was Paul just "full of himself"? I don't think so.

1 Cor. 15:9 "For I am the least of the apostles, that am not meet to be called an apostle, because I persecuted the church of God."
And DESPITE THIS, The Lord chose Paul:
10 "But by the grace of God I am what I am: and his grace which was bestowed upon me was not in vain; but I laboured more abundantly than they all: yet not I, but the grace of God which was with me."
Paul gives ALL the glory to God (rightly so).

Paul’s epistles/letters indicate he had to constantly defend his apostleship.
He was not one of the 12 disciples, nor did he have the access the disciples had enjoyed of Christ in His earthly ministry.
So where did Paul "get the nerve" to tell others to "follow him"?
And WHY-OH-WHY would Jesus choose Paul... who wasn't one of the 12, who had formerly persecuted and even murdered Christians???
The Lord COULD have chosen the 12 disciples to preach the gospel to the Gentiles, The Lord COULD have chosen someone... anyone...else, right?

Instead, the glorified Christ specially commissioned PAUL as the apostle to the Gentiles.
Galatians 1:1 "Paul, an apostle, (not of men, neither by man, but by Jesus Christ, and God the Father, who raised him from the dead;)"
Galatians 1:15 "But when it pleased God, who separated me from my mother's womb, and called me by his grace"
    16 "To reveal his Son in me, that I might preach him among the heathen; immediately I conferred not with flesh and blood:"
    17 "Neither went I up to Jerusalem to them which were apostles before me; but I went into Arabia, and returned again unto Damascus."
(He goes on to tell of the other regions wherein he taught)
But notice here, that in verse 17, Paul was separated from the twelve, after his salvation. 
Why? God had a special plan for Paul. Peter and the other disciples had been preaching the coming Kingdom. But Peter and the other disciples didn't understand, nor was it revealed to them by God, the plan for the Gentiles. The church age! This current age of grace.

The risen, glorified, heavenly Christ revealed secrets/mysteries to Paul that He had kept unrevealed in His earthly ministry to the 12 disciples.
Some of these secrets and mysteries included the revelation of the Church, the body of Christ, the gospel of the grace of God (whereas before we saw the other preaching faith plus works (such as be baptized for the remission of sins) Peter himself said this in Acts 2:38 "Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost."

But to Paul it is revealed it is NOW grace WITHOUT works to salvation,  and also Paul was to whom the Rapture was revealed as well.
We see the many mysteries revealed to Paul (later revealed to more apostles and  prophets by the Holy Spirit- as we read in Ephesians chapter 3 - whole chapter)

Colossians 1:24 "Who now rejoice in my sufferings for you, and fill up that which is behind of the afflictions of Christ in my flesh for his body's sake, which is the church:"
  25 "Whereof I am made a minister, according to the dispensation of God which is given to me for you, to fulfil the word of God;"
  26 "Even the mystery which hath been hid from ages and from generations, but now is made manifest to his saints:"
  27 "To whom God would make known what is the riches of the glory of this mystery among the Gentiles; which is Christ in you, the hope of glory"

In Acts 9 we read of Saul (later renamed Paul) being knocked to the ground and temporarily blinded. 
Although Paul had done some horrible things to the early believer's in Christ, God, in His infinite wisdom, chose Paul. 
God said (of Paul): "he is a chosen vessel unto me, to bear my name before the Gentiles, and kings, and the children of Israel."

Paul paid a heavy price for his ministry. Because he was not "one of the 12" and because Paul taught doctrines completely unknown by them, some believers regarded him with suspicion.
Believing Jews rejected Paul’s gospel to the Gentiles. They declared Gentiles had to be saved like Jews had been doing, adding faith plus works, as they were doing with baptism added to salvation. They were still preaching the gospel of the kingdom. They didn't realize the Kingdom (on earth) would be ushered in at the end of the tribulation, at the end of the time of "Jacob's trouble".
They claimed Gentiles had to be circumcised and keep the Law of Moses (Acts 15.1, 15:5)
Who was in the "right"? And who was in the "wrong"?
There were apostles and elders disputing, and then Peter admits that there shouldn't be any difference in how Gentiles and Jews were saved, since God had given the Holy Ghost to the Gentiles as well.
He admits that the yoke (of the law) should not be placed upon the Gentiles, since the yoke itself was too grievous to bear for them and for their forefathers.
Peter, himself admits (in verse 11) "But we believe that through the grace of the Lord Jesus Christ we shall be saved, even as they."
(but then Peter later goes back to preaching a faith plus works theme again, as well as the gospel of the Kingdom)

Gentiles being saved was unthinkable before this time. 
Grace by faith was the doctrine revealed to Paul.

After the agreement and conclusion reached in Acts 15, Where Peter, James, the other apostles and elders AGREED with Paul that salvation had now come unto the Gentiles as well...
Paul then went on to preach the gospel of salvation by grace and faith in Christ. It was no longer to be the Kingdom gospel (because that will apply to a future dispensation).

Paul wrote the Galatians that anyone who preached a gospel different from his gospel was accursed!
Galatians 1:8 "But though we, or an angel from heaven, preach any other gospel unto you than that which we have preached unto you, let him be accursed."

So why not Peter? Why wasn't Peter specifically chosen by God to have the mysteries of the church revealed, as well as the gospel of the grace of God (and not a faith PLUS works), and the rapture?
It is clear throughout scripture that Peter had misunderstood many things.
In Acts 10 we read that Peter is given a dream. His dream shows him how Gentiles are no longer to be considered unclean.
Acts 10:28 "And he said unto them, Ye know how that it is an unlawful thing for a man that is a Jew to keep company, or come unto one of another nation; but God hath shewed me that I should not call any man common or unclean"
So then Peter learns that the Gentiles would no longer be considered "unclean".
Paul was given the mystery, not Peter. Peter didn't truly understand that the Gentiles were also clean (made clean by the work of Jesus on the cross). God had to give Peter the dream (in Acts 10).
Yet, Peter still clung to many of the Jewish customs and traditions, and was attempting to burden the Gentiles (who were newly converted Christians) that they also had to obey Jewish customs and laws.

We already read in Acts 15 where Peter admitted (in front of Paul) "But we believe that through the grace of the Lord Jesus Christ we shall be saved, even as they."
We thought he understood the "salvation by grace" plan, but then he slips right back into adding works to salvation (which is NO LONGER the plan for salvation).
In Galatians 2:14 we read: "14 But when I saw that they walked not uprightly according to the truth of the gospel, I said unto Peter before them all, If thou, being a Jew, livest after the manner of Gentiles, and not as do the Jews, why compellest thou the Gentiles to live as do the Jews?"
***Paul admonishes Peter for his misunderstanding (yet again). Paul thought he'd settled the matter (in Acts 10) that salvation is by grace, in faith in Christ alone without works.

So the answer to "Why not Peter"? COULD be these reasons above as well as the fact that Peter had told the Lord Jesus that he would NEVER deny Him (yet he did before the rooster crowed 3 times).
Matthew 26:35 ""Peter said unto him, Though I should die with thee, yet will I not deny thee. Likewise also said all the disciples."
Matthew 26:74 "Then began he to curse and to swear, saying, I know not the man. And immediately the cock crew.
    75 "And Peter remembered the word of Jesus, which said unto him, Before the cock crow, thou shalt deny me thrice. And he went out, and wept bitterly." 
Could it be that God knew that Peter would not be as dependable as Paul? Could it be that God knew that Peter would "waffle" on the very plan of salvation (adding works to faith)?
Could it be that God knew how confusing it would be to the masses since Peter had started out preaching the gospel of the coming Kingdom?
God alone knows all of the reason why He chose Paul (and not Peter) to reveal His mysteries and secrets to. 

Paul is THE apostle to the Gentiles in Romans 3:13
"13 For I speak to you Gentiles, inasmuch as I am the apostle of the Gentiles, I magnify mine office"

Romans 15:15 "Nevertheless, brethren, I have written the more boldly unto you in some sort, as putting you in mind, because of the grace that is given to me of God,"
 16 "That I should be the minister of Jesus Christ to the Gentiles, ministering the gospel of God, that the offering up of the Gentiles might be acceptable, being sanctified by the Holy Ghost."

I've already gone over this verse, but I want to bring out something MANY people have MISSED here:
1 Tim 1:15-16 
15 "This is a faithful saying, and worthy of all acceptation, that Christ Jesus came into the world to save sinners; of whom I am chief."
16 "Howbeit for this cause I obtained mercy, that in me first Jesus Christ might shew forth all longsuffering, for a pattern to them which should hereafter believe on him to life everlasting."

FIRST!!! Paul was given the mystery of the church age, the truth of the gospel in grace for salvation (salvation is NOT contingent upon works), and of the rapture.
Paul was given all of this FIRST, and Why? He was to show the pattern of salvation for all those to come (in the church age) who would believe upon the Lord Jesus for eternal salvation.
And what was the first and most distinguishing difference of the gospel Paul taught in comparison to what the disciples had been teaching? Grace by faith in Jesus Christ alone for salvation.
We (as born again believer's in this current dispensation) are to follow the example of Paul, teaching what Paul taught and the pattern of grace by faith salvation.

Let's go back to why we follow Paul's writing as applicable to the church age, RATHER THAN the gospel of the coming Kingdom (on earth):

When Jesus selected the twelve disciples, He clearly meant for the gospel they (the 12) preached to be given to whom? "To the lost sheep of the house of Israel"
Matthew 10:5 "These twelve Jesus sent forth, and commanded them, saying, Go not into the way of the Gentiles, and into any city of the Samaritans enter ye not:"
    6 "But go rather to the lost sheep of the house of Israel."
They taught the gospel of the Kingdom. 
Good thing that's NOT the end of the story!

The twelve disciples went throughout, teaching the gospel of the kingdom to come.
As we saw in Matthew 10:5-6, they were teaching ONLY to the Jewish people, (as Jesus Himself told them to do in Matt. 10:5-6)
During that time MANY Jewish people DID accept Christ.
However, we see that the majority did NOT accept Christ as their Messiah.
Instead they rejected Jesus and He willingly went to the cross.

Who did Jesus go to the cross for? Was it only for the Jewish people? We find later that it was for WHOSEVER WILL believe and accept Christ as their savior.
Had we read up to the point where Christ went to the cross and stopped reading at his crucifixion , burial, and resurrection... we might have concluded that Jesus died only for the Jewish people.
After all... He had commanded the disciples NOT to go to the Gentiles, but to only go to the "house If Israel".

God had fore-ordained this entire plan. The numerous OT prophecies didn't foresee the church age, but they DID tell of the Messiah to come.
The OT prophesies also told of the coming Kingdom (on land... which is how this thread topic started). They prophecies are very specific as to the coming Kingdom being on this physical earth (as we've been discussing throughout this thread).
The Jewish people were waiting for their Messiah to come, but they also believed He would usher in the Kingdom at the very time He came (during His first coming).
God fore-knew that they would reject Christ as their Messiah, and God also foreknew that He had a plan of the church age IN BETWEEN Christ's first coming and His second coming. God also knew that after the church age there would be a time of judgment and wrath on this earth. How else could the Kingdom be brought in when the world was/is/will be so full of wicked people? The kingdom cannot be brought in until the evil world is dealt with.

But before the Kingdom is brought in, before the wrath of God and judgment upon earth in which God will destroy the wicked and try the remnant of Israel through the time of Jacob's trouble... before those things happen the church age exists.
The 12 disciples didn't understand the church age, we can see from the questions they asked Jesus, they were looking for Him to bring in the Kingdom with His first appearance on earth.
Peter (and the other early disciples/apostles) were preaching the gospel of the Kingdom. They DID understand (after the fact) that Jesus had willingly died, was buried, and was resurrected. They DID understand that the atoning sacrifice of Jesus bleed was shed for the remission of sins. But they did not (yet) understand that God's plan included those other people in the world whom they thought of as "unclean".
They were stunned to find out that God had a plan for the Gentiles as well. This current "church age/age of grace" is that plan.

As I've shown above, Paul was to whom the church age was revealed. PRIOR to Paul being shown this mystery from the Lord Himself, no-one knew, nor had it been revealed to them.
We can see that Peter (as well as the other disciples) were still awaiting the Kingdom. They didn't understand that the Gentiles would be brought into God's plan UNTIL it started happening, and UNTIL Paul revealed to them the mystery He had been given.
God did reveal to Peter that the Gentiles were no longer to be considered "unclean", but Peter couldn't quite grasp the plan, even after God sent Peter the dreams and even after Paul had explained it. 

So I conclude by saying that the gospel of the Kingdom on earth is not the gospel for the current church age. Our gospel is grace. Faith in the work Jesus performed at the cross, and in Jesus alone. And we find the doctrine most relevant for this current church age in the writings of Paul. Can we learn from Hebrews, James, and Peter? Yes! YES and YES! Just like we can learn from the old testament many things which are applicable to our lives today. However, when we read Paul's writing we have the understanding that he was given the mysteries of the church age as well as the mystery of the rapture, and as the many verses above stated: Paul was chosen to be the bearer of the gospel to the Gentiles.

 

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Of course I believe in dispensations, the old and the new, known as the OT and the NT.  There are no other dispensations. There will be no Gt Tribulation in a future dispensation.    The great tribulation in Matt 24, Mar 13, and Luke 21 is local and was upon Jews in the land of Judea and Jerusalem during the Roman war.  
Tribulations in Revelation are on a Church, on believers and on evil people.

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1 hour ago, Invicta said:

Of course I believe in dispensations, the old and the new, known as the OT and the NT.  There are no other dispensations. There will be no Gt Tribulation in a future dispensation.    The great tribulation in Matt 24, Mar 13, and Luke 21 is local and was upon Jews in the land of Judea and Jerusalem during the Roman war.  
Tribulations in Revelation are on a Church, on believers and on evil people.

 So you admit to 2 dispensations... however you claim the blessings of the first dispensation for yourself. 

What did Paul mean in these verses?:

Ephesians 3:1 "For this cause I Paul, the prisoner of Jesus Christ for you Gentiles,"
2 "If ye have heard of the dispensation of the grace of God which is given me to you-ward:"

Colossians 1:25 "Whereof I am made a minister, according to the dispensation of God which is given to me for you, to fulfil the word of God;"
26 "Even the mystery which hath been hid from ages and from generations, but now is made manifest to his saints"
 

And are YOU part of the church (or even part of the same people group) who goes through the tribulation of the book of Revelation? Or is that somehow allegorical or somehow historical to you?

I'll wait for your exegesis and scriptural back-up to your theory.  

Forgot to add... Are you also a partaker of the millennial kingdom? Or is that also not an actual millennial kingdom to you, or is it not an actual thousand year period (even though Revelation 20 specifically states it is)?

Edited by Ronda
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On 12/19/2015 at 9:44 PM, beameup said:

I'll give an example of not "rightly dividing".  I attended a MAJOR Philippine church, led by an internationally known businessman & pastor.  His sermon was based upon Exodus 19:5-6, and he preached that this is "our destiny" as Christians that WE are a "Holy Nation" and we are a "Kingdom of Priests".

"Now therefore, if ye will obey my voice indeed, and keep my covenant, then ye shall be a peculiar treasure unto me above all people: for all the earth is mine: And ye shall be unto me a kingdom of priests, and an holy nation. These are the words which thou shalt speak unto the children of Israel."  Exodus 19:5-6

Augustine of Hippo pushed "Replacement Theology" in the 4th Century, a theology which prevailed at the Council of Nicea, where the Catholic Church was formed under the leadership of Emperor Constantine.  Under this "Theology", ALL scripture is FOR the "Church" since Israel totally failed and has been Replaced by the Church.  All the "promises of scripture" (Old Testament) now belong to the Church.  In this 1,500+ year old "theology", everywhere in the OT where "Israel" appears, we are to substitute "Church" (of course, any curses are somehow NOT applied to the Church).

I've heard more than a few Baptist pastors preach along these lines. Some preach Baptists hold this special position, some preach America is the holy nation, especially because there are such good Baptists in America.

It seems some pastors get carried away and go to far in their sermons on this topic while some others actually believe this with a passion.

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On 12/20/2015 at 6:17 PM, Invicta said:

1. Paul wrote Hebrews.

2. No one needs to follow a "faith PLUS works"  And nowhere in the bible is that taught.  The bible teaching is that we show we have faith by our works.  If you don't have works, you don't have faith.  

I find it interesting that for centuries it was accepted that Paul was the author of Hebrews but once some modernists "scholars" began questioning that many jumped on that bandwagon. It's especially interesting that many who reject the modernist methods, motives and declarations on virtually every point nevertheless accept their meandering views on the authorship of Hebrews.

One thing that is fun, at least to me, is to listen or read old sermons (even a few new ones) from Baptist pastors preaching boldly that Paul is the author of Hebrews and why that's so clear.

As to point #2: Amen!

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