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John 3:13 And no man hath ascended up to heaven, but he that came down from heaven, even the Son of man which is in heaven.

I have 2 questions. 1) Why was Jesus saying he was in heaven while standing on earth? 2) Where did Enoch and Elijah go if they didn't go to heaven?

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My 'opinion' - 1. This is not Jesus speaking. But John who wrote it. Part of 'narration' from John. And, as I think that most times, maybe not all times, the words ending in "eth" are not, like the MV bibles, an ending of "es" or "s" but "ed" or "d", making the word past tense, not present.

2. Kinda answered by above number 1.

Edited by Genevanpreacher
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  • Independent Fundamental Baptist

With that said, I see it in one of two ways...and I'm not sure which one I lean toward.

  1. This was John speaking about Christ; not Christ speaking about himself.
  2. This was Christ speaking about himself, and it is proof that he is God by showing he is omnipresent.

Based on the Greek grammatical structure and logical flow of the passage, I currently lean toward #2 with a slightly different proof (omniscience vs. omnipresence). vv. 13-21 are a single literary unit that continues the Jesus' explanation to Nicodemus and v. 22 begins the next segment in the narrative timeline. Additionally, v. 13 begins with the conjunction "and" (Gk. kai meaning "and, even, also, namely") which is normally used to continue a thought or explanation rather than begin a new one.

Finally, if you'll bear with me on this part...in the final phrase "which is in heaven" is a little bit of an awkward rendering for the way we speak today, but a nuance of "in" (Gk. en) is that it indicates prior association and can often carries a causal connotation such as "before." Therefore, what we have here is an assertion no one has gone up to heaven, but the one who came down from heaven (Jesus), has always been there and therefore has a deep and personal knowledge of the heavenly things that He was trying to communicate to Nicodemus in the prior 12 verses. What I think we have here in verse 13 is an assertion of first-hand knowledge of heaven that only Jesus could have if he was God.

Those are my thoughts anyway.

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  • Independent Fundamental Baptist

 

John 3:13 And no man hath ascended up to heaven, but he that came down from heaven, even the Son of man which is in heaven.

I have 2 questions. 1) Why was Jesus saying he was in heaven while standing on earth? 2) Where did Enoch and Elijah go if they didn't go to heaven?

John 1:1 In the beginning was the Word and the word was with God and the word was God..........and the word became flesh and dwelt among us.......Matthew 1:23 Behold, a virgin shall be with child, and shall bring forth a son, and they shall call his name Emmanuel, which being interpreted is, God with us. Jesus is, has always been, and always will be God. His physical body was right there with them, but God is everywhere at the same time. About Enoch and Elijah, I think maybe they went to "Abraham's Bosom" or "Paradise", but again, God is everywhere and I think they were with Him regardless. In Enoch's case, the Bible says that he "was not for God took him". When you "take" something, it usually comes to you or with you doesn't it?

Edited by heartstrings
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John 1:1 In the beginning was the Word and the word was with God and the word was God..........and the word became flesh and dwelt among us.......Matthew 1:23 Behold, a virgin shall be with child, and shall bring forth a son, and they shall call his name Emmanuel, which being interpreted is, God with us. Jesus is, has always been, and always will be God. His physical body was right there with them, but God is everywhere at the same time. About Enoch and Elijah, I think maybe they went to "Abraham's Bosom" or "Paradise", but again, God is everywhere and I think they were with Him regardless. In Enoch's case, the Bible says that he "was not for God took him". When you "take" something, it usually comes to you or with you doesn't it?

I agree...the righteous went to Abraham's bosom before Christ's death, burial, and resurrection.

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  • Independent Fundamental Baptist

     While reading this chapter I can plainly see that it is Jesus talking and not John narrating in his own words.  Jesus was in heaven and earth at the same time being fully God and fully man. Making him omnipresent. You may question how can that be when Jesus says. 

"And now, O Father, glorify thou me with thine own self with the glory which I had with thee before the world was" in John 17 :5?

      While here on earth he did not possess the glory, that he shared with the Father before the world was, in the flesh, but he is one with the Father and I would say in spirit, which would make him omnipresent and omniscient.  Jesus says this in John 14 6- 11.

Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me. 7 If ye had known me, ye should have known my Father also: and from henceforth ye know him, and have seen him. 8 Philip saith unto him, Lord, shew us the Father, and it sufficeth us. 9 Jesus saith unto him, Have I been so long time with you, and yet hast thou not known me, Philip? he that hath seen me hath seen the Father; and how sayest thou then, Shew us the Father? 10 Believest thou not that I am in the Father, and the Father in me? the words that I speak unto you I speak not of myself: but the Father that dwelleth in me, he doeth the works. 11 Believe me that I am in the Father, and the Father in me: or else believe me for the very works' sake". Jesus clams that the Father dwells in him. He even affirms that if you see him you see the Father. He even asks Phillip "has thou not known me." and asks "how sayest thou then show us the Father?".

     When he references glory, it means with fullness of His body that He had with the God the Father in the times of the Old Testament.  Genesis 1:26 where God said

Let us make man in our image, after our likeness: and let them have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl of the air, and over the cattle, and over all the earth, and over every creeping thing that creepeth upon the earth. 27 So God created man in his own image, in the image of God created he him; male and female created he them".  Notice the singular words and phrase image and likness along with the plural word us and takes a possession of the image of God by stating "his own image".

     Christ has always been with the Father and image is that physical body that Jesus had.  Paul even says in Colossians 1:15-19 and 2:9

 "Who is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of every creature: 16 For by him were all things created, that are in heaven, and that are in earth, visible and invisible, whether they be thrones, or dominions, or principalities, or powers: all things were created by him, and for him: 17 And he is before all things, and by him all things consist. 18 And he is the head of the body, the church: who is the beginning, the firstborn from the dead; that in all things he might have the preeminence. 19 For it pleased the Father that in him should all fulness dwell;"  "For in him dwelleth all the fulness of the Godhead bodily".

    Jesus is the image of the invisible God and Paul puts Jesus Christ with the Father in creation and showing that all things were created by him. It also states "in him should all fullness dwell in him bodily". 

 Paul further confirms this in Hebrews 1:2 and 3

"Hath in these last days spoken unto us by his Son, whom he hath appointed heir of all things, by whom also he made the worlds; 3 Who being the brightness of his glory, and the express image of his person, and upholding all things by the word of his power, when he had by himself purged our sins, sat down on the right hand of the Majesty on high;".

 Enoch and Elijah are examples of a rapture. Where else would God take these righteous men if not heaven or Abraham's bosom/paradise?

 

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