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Invicta

How many second comings?

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I asked earlier how many second comings there would be.  I was taught that there were two, one coming for the saints and then with the saints.  However we had a dispy preacher  a couple of years ago or so who said that Acts 1:10-11 was a coming to the Jews because the angel was speaking to Jews.   Of course the angel was speaking to Christians. When I asked him “where were the Christians at this time,” he said “In heaven.”  So which coming was this?

 And while they looked stedfastly toward heaven as he went up, behold, two men stood by them in white apparel; 11  Which also said, Ye men of Galilee, why stand ye gazing up into heaven? this same Jesus, which is taken up from you into heaven, shall so come in like manner as ye have seen him go into heaven.

Sometime before that another dispy who was a great friend of ours, said of Matt 25, sheep and goats that Christians weren’t there and Jews were not either as Jews were not to be numbered amongst the nations, so what coming is that?

32  And before him shall be gathered all nations: and he shall separate them one from another, as a shepherd divideth his sheep from the goats: 33  And he shall set the sheep on his right hand, but the goats on the left. 34  Then shall the King say unto them on his right hand, Come, ye blessed of my Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world: 35  For I was an hungred, and ye gave me meat: I was thirsty, and ye gave me drink: I was a stranger, and ye took me in: 36  Naked, and ye clothed me: I was sick, and ye visited me: I was in prison, and ye came unto me.37  Then shall the righteous answer him, saying, Lord, when saw we thee an hungred, and fed thee? or thirsty, and gave thee drink?38  When saw we thee a stranger, and took thee in? or naked, and clothed thee? 39  Or when saw we thee sick, or in prison, and came unto thee? 40  And the King shall answer and say unto them, Verily I say unto you, Inasmuch as ye have done it unto one of the least of these my brethren, ye have done it unto me.41  Then shall he say also unto them on the left hand, Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels: 42  For I was an hungred, and ye gave me no meat: I was thirsty, and ye gave me no drink: 43  I was a stranger, and ye took me not in: naked, and ye clothed me not: sick, and in prison, and ye visited me not. 44  Then shall they also answer him, saying, Lord, when saw we thee an hungred, or athirst, or a stranger, or naked, or sick, or in prison, and did not minister unto thee? 45  Then shall he answer them, saying, Verily I say unto you, Inasmuch as ye did it not to one of the least of these, ye did it not to me. 46  And these shall go away into everlasting punishment: but the righteous into life eternal.

As neither of these interpretations fit into the coming for the saints or coming with the saints, or each other that makes it four comings as I see.

Edited by Invicta

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And what event does the following event relate to?

Matt 24:37  But as the days of Noe were, so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.
38  For as in the days that were before the flood they were eating and drinking, marrying and giving in marriage, until the day that Noe entered into the ark,
39  And knew not until the flood came, and took them all away; so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.
40  Then shall two be in the field; the one shall be taken, and the other left.
41  Two women shall be grinding at the mill; the one shall be taken, and the other left.
42  Watch therefore: for ye know not what hour your Lord doth come.
43  But know this, that if the goodman of the house had known in what watch the thief would come, he would have watched, and would not have suffered his house to be broken up.
44  Therefore be ye also ready: for in such an hour as ye think not the Son of man cometh.

 

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From a dispensationalist perspective, I would say a couple things. First, like John81 said, the Second Coming is an overall end-times event and not necessarily a single action. Second, I personally do not consider the  rapture (I.e. Christ coming for the saints) as a "Second Coming" because His presence never comes to the earth. Rather, we meet him in the clouds and return with him to Heaven. His physical Second Coming and presence on earth will not happen until the end of the Tribulation when the Millennial Kingdom is established.

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That's an excellent point/question. I would still say the Rapture and subsequent tribulation. If you understand the Rapture as the beginning point of the event we call the Second Coming, it doesn't present any difficulties. What I think creates the confusion is that we throw everything that has to do with Christ's activity in the end times into one term.  Primarily, I think, what we talk about as the Second Coming is Jesus arriving on earth to institute His Millennial Kingdom, correct? If that's what we're talking about, then nothing associated with the Rapture qualifies because He never arrives or dwells again on earth in that event. Rather, He steps out of Heaven and calls us to meet Him in the air and go back to Heaven. It's a great mirror of how the ancient Jews used to conduct wedding ceremonies. On the eve of the wedding, the groom would come to the bride's house and call her from the gate. She would then meet him there at the gate and accompany him back to his home where the festivities would occur.

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OK.  It I understand you correctly, this passage refers to the rapture (I use the word even though it is not scriptural as it is the word used these days) when the saints are caught up to meet the Lord in the air.  Is that correct?

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That's where this topic can really get muddled because there are a host of different views on the end times. For me as a pre-trib dispensationalist, the rapture (or whatever terminology you would like to use) precedes the beginning of the tribulation (by how much time exactly isn't something I'm prepared to stand on) and marks the beginning of the eschatological timeline. In this view the one and only Second Coming happens at the end of the tribulation and begins the Millennial Kingdom.

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As I understand, the rapture, so-called, is not a 'coming', as he does not come to earth, regardless of the timing. his actual coming is directly after the wrath of God falls, with the seven vials of wrath, then in rev 19, is His coming. It is the same coming as we see in Zechariah 14-in both He destroys the nations coming against Israel. The sheep and goats judgment take places after His coming, when He takes His throne, and judges those of the nations that came against Israel-not the armies, but the people who lived in those nations. They are separated according to their treatment of the people of God when they are presecuted, whether they had compassion upon the or not: those who did were brought into the kingdom bodily, (and those are they mentioned in Zechariah 14:16, who will come year to year to worship Christ in Jerusalem), while the goats who had no compassion, will be cast into Hell. This begins the millennial reign of Christ.  So only one coming, only one return.

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As I understand, the rapture, so-called, is not a 'coming', as he does not come to earth, regardless of the timing. 

Yes Mike, I know that teaching, I was taught it for years.

16  For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first: 17  Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.

Christ will descend and we will meet him in the air, it says. I believe there is only one coming.  That is described in Acts 1.9  And when he had spoken these things, while they beheld, he was taken up; and a cloud received him out of their sight. 10  And while they looked stedfastly toward heaven as he went up, behold, two men stood by them in white apparel; 11  Which also said, Ye men of Galilee, why stand ye gazing up into heaven? this same Jesus, which is taken up from you into heaven, shall so come in like manner as ye have seen him go into heaven.

He ascended into the clouds once, He will descend from the clouds once and we will meet Him in the air.  Then will the wrath of God be poured out in the judgment.

Your comments re sheep and goats seem some will be saved by works. I believe the sheep are Christians, the goats are professors but not saved. (What some call worldly Christians)

 

Edited by Invicta
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16  For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first: 17  Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.

Christ will descend and we will meet him in the air, it says. I believe there is only one coming.  That is described in Acts 1.9  And when he had spoken these things, while they beheld, he was taken up; and a cloud received him out of their sight. 10  And while they looked stedfastly toward heaven as he went up, behold, two men stood by them in white apparel; 11  Which also said, Ye men of Galilee, why stand ye gazing up into heaven? this same Jesus, which is taken up from you into heaven, shall so come in like manner as ye have seen him go into heaven.

He ascended into the clouds once, He will descend from the clouds once and we will meet Him in the air.  Then will the wrath of God be poured out in the judgment.

I think you're conflating two passages that don't necessarily reference the same thing. Your first reference out of 1 Thess 4 specifically says that He will descend from Heaven to the clouds (not the earth) where we will meet him. He never steps foot on the earth in that event. Acts 1:9 says He will descend from the clouds to the earth the same way that he went up. You're right that He ascended to the clouds once and that He will descend from them once, but for the rapture He does not descend from the clouds, but rather descends to them. These two passages are actually make my point more clearly than I did earlier.

 

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I think you're conflating two passages that don't necessarily reference the same thing. Your first reference out of 1 Thess 4 specifically says that He will descend from Heaven to the clouds (not the earth) where we will meet him. He never steps foot on the earth in that event. Acts 1:9 says He will descend from the clouds to the earth the same way that he went up. You're right that He ascended to the clouds once and that He will descend from them once, but for the rapture He does not descend from the clouds, but rather descends to them. These two passages are actually make my point more clearly than I did earlier.

 

1 Thess does emphatically not say that He will not to return to earth.  Read it, then read it again, then read it again.

1 Thess 4:16  For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first: 17  Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.

 

It says he will descend, it doesn't say he will ascend again.  That is a teaching invented by J N Darby. Read what it says.

 

David

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Yes Mike, I know that teaching, I was taught it for years.

16  For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first: 17  Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.

Christ will descend and we will meet him in the air, it says. I believe there is only one coming.  That is described in Acts 1.9  And when he had spoken these things, while they beheld, he was taken up; and a cloud received him out of their sight. 10  And while they looked stedfastly toward heaven as he went up, behold, two men stood by them in white apparel; 11  Which also said, Ye men of Galilee, why stand ye gazing up into heaven? this same Jesus, which is taken up from you into heaven, shall so come in like manner as ye have seen him go into heaven.

He ascended into the clouds once, He will descend from the clouds once and we will meet Him in the air.  Then will the wrath of God be poured out in the judgment.

Your comments re sheep and goats seem some will be saved by works. I believe the sheep are Christians, the goats are professors but not saved. (What some call worldly Christians)

 

No, they won't be saved by their works, they will go into the kingdom, in the flesh, because, having shown mercy, they will receive mercy. But being in the flesh tells me they will still need to receive Jesus as Saviour. And before you say, how can it be they will reject when they SEE Him?, I say, according to scripture, during the millennial reign, many will see Him and yet reject Him, and instead will follow Satan when he is freed.

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No, they won't be saved by their works, they will go into the kingdom, in the flesh, because, having shown mercy, they will receive mercy. But being in the flesh tells me they will still need to receive Jesus as Saviour. And before you say, how can it be they will reject when they SEE Him?, I say, according to scripture, during the millennial reign, many will see Him and yet reject Him, and instead will follow Satan when he is freed.

Hm

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1 Thess does emphatically not say that He will not to return to earth.  Read it, then read it again, then read it again.

1 Thess 4:16  For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first: 17  Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.

 

It says he will descend, it doesn't say he will ascend again.  That is a teaching invented by J N Darby. Read what it says.

 

David

I've never read Darby, so I can't really comment on what he does/doesn't teach. I'm just taking the passage for what it says. I'll give you that it does not specifically say that there is an ascent back to heaven, but it is certainly not excluded as a possibility. What IS excluded as a possibility (using your own logic of non-mention) is His feet touching the earth since we meet Him in the clouds/air. Therefore, we either remain there in the clouds forever or we will return to heaven for the Marriage Supper of the Lamb (Rev 19:7-9), which specifically takes places in heaven, and then join Him for the Second Coming (Rev 19:11-15).

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