The Sovereignty of God

[No Nicolaitans]

If sin doesn't come from God, then why did Lucifer sin? Both Lucifer and man were created without sin in them...yet they sinned. How did this happen if God is sovereign and in total control in all aspects? How did sin start if sin doesn't come from God?

 

Good question, something I struggle with time to time. Because the only one that is perfect is God.

so I would ask you here then do you think God is not sovereign over the fall of Adam and Lucifers rebellion? 

I think so, part of His plan of redemption.

 

I could be wrong, but my opinion (as to why you struggle with that from time to time) is as I mentioned earlier...it would make God the author of sin.

To answer your question...no, I don't think God was sovereign OVER the fall of Adam and Lucifer's rebellion, but I do believe that God was sovereign DURING the fall of Adam and Lucifer's rebellion.

Their choices didn't surprise God or catch him off guard. He knew what would happen before they did it. In his sovereignty, even though man messed things up, God still made a way for man to come back to him.

Leonard, do you know why God created man? There are many assumptions as to why God created man. Among the most popular that I've heard, some say it was so he could fellowship with man. Some say that it was the only way God could show his attribute of grace. I've even heard some say that it was because God was lonely.  

Well, God had Jesus and the Holy Spirit to fellowship with; he didn't have to have man for that.

To show his attribute of grace? Jesus and the Holy Spirit already knew that God had grace.

God was lonely?    What better company could there be than Jesus and the Holy Spirit?

So...why did God create man? The answer is in the Bible...

Isaiah 43:7
Even every one that is called by my name: for I have created him for my glory, I have formed him; yea, I have made him.

God created man to bring him glory Leonard. That's our purpose in life. It can be accomplished in many different ways, but that's why we're here...to bring glory to God. Now, if that's why God created man (and it is), then why did God even allow sin to come in to being? He could have made man (and Lucifer) without the ability to sin...after all, he's God and all-powerful. He could have made man (and angels) so that they just automatically glorify him all of the time.

Yet...

God wants to be glorified, but he wants it to come from our hearts. Do you remember what the Lord said the greatest commandment was?

Matthew 22:36-37
36   Master, which is the great commandment in the law?
37   Jesus said unto him, Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy mind.

He wants those things from us...he wants it come from us...he wants us to love him with all of OUR heart, all of OUR soul, and all of OUR mind. That means he wants it to come from US...not from him. He wants us to want to do it...to choose to do it. Otherwise, he could have just made us to be robots who parrot glory unto him.

God is sovereign Leonard, and he will lead, guide, and direct our steps...if we let him. If we step out on our own, he's still sovereign. In his sovereignty, he will allow us to suffer the consequences of whatever foolish choices we make, and if and when we come back to him...he will again lead, guide, and direct our steps.

God made us in order that we might glorify him. He wants us to do it willingly, from our heart, from our mind, and from our soul. He wants us to do it, because we want to do it...not because we are made to do it. He wants us to do it freely...of our own free-will.

The only way that God can truly receive glory from us is if we do it of our own free will; otherwise, it would be feigned glory if he made us do it, caused us to do it, or instigated us to do it.

If God is controlling each and every aspect of our lives in order to receive glory from us, then he's sinning. He's using us for selfish reasons...as slaves. Do you recall how often God reminded Israel that if they had any slaves, they should treat them with love, respect, and fairness? He often reminded them to treat slaves well, because they were to remember how terribly they were treated when they were slaves in Egypt.

We're not robots Leonard; we're not slaves. We are his children, and he wants his children to love him from our heart. He wants it to come from us...not him.

All right, I've rambled on way too long.

Let me end with this...

Luke 19:38-40
38   Saying, Blessed be the King that cometh in the name of the Lord: peace in heaven, and glory in the highest.
39   And some of the Pharisees from among the multitude said unto him, Master, rebuke thy disciples.
40   And he answered and said unto them, I tell you that, if these should hold their peace, the stones would immediately cry out.

Choose to glorify him today Leonard...choose to look for ways to bring him glory. Whether through witnessing, making godly choices, prayer and praise, Bible reading, and the list could go on and on. Choose to bring him glory, because you love him from your heart, your mind, and your soul.

...ain't no rock gonna cry out instead of me today!

Edited September 12, 2015 by No Nicolaitans

[John81]

Being sovereign doesn't equal total dominating control. God has the sovereign power to use total control or to grant a measure of freedom of action, or free will. We see the same thing with a parent and child. The parent could force their child to do everything just as they say, or in some areas they can choose to allow the child to take independent action. Either way, the parent is still sovereign. As well, God is sovereign whether He chooses to use His sovereignty in the form of taking total control or granting a measure of independence.

Knowing God is all wise, we can trust whatever course of action He takes it's for the ultimate fulfillment of His perfect plan.

[Ukulelemike]

 

Mike you have asked often, now let me ask you, can you find free will in Scripture?

Not in word, just as you can't find 'sovereign'. However, the example is abundant, both in old and new testaments.

"Notwithstanding ye would not go up, but rebelled against the commandment of the LORD your God:" (Deu 1:26)

"And the LORD said unto me, Say unto them, Go not up, neither fight; for I am not among you; lest ye be smitten before your enemies. So I spake unto you; and ye would not hear, but rebelled against the commandment of the LORD, and went presumptuously up into the hill." (Deu 1:42, 43)

"Because they have not hearkened to my words, saith the LORD, which I sent unto them by my servants the prophets, rising up early and sending them; but ye would not hear, saith the LORD." (Jer 29:19)

"O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, thou that killest the prophets, and stonest them which are sent unto thee, how often would I have gathered thy children together, even as a hen gathereth her chickens under her wings, and ye would not!" (Matt 23:37)

"Thus saith the LORD, Stand ye in the ways, and see, and ask for the old paths, where is the good way, and walk therein, and ye shall find rest for your souls. But they said, We will not walk therein." (Jer 6:16)

"For whosoever will save his life shall lose it: but whosoever will lose his life for my sake, the same shall save it." (Luke 9:24)

"And the Spirit and the bride say, Come. And let him that heareth say, Come. And let him that is athirst come. And whosoever will, let him take the water of life freely." (Rev 22:17).

These are all examples of people and nations exercising free will, most showing them clearly going against God's spoken will, as well as, the last two, examples of there being a choice made to people. Choice-free will.  Here's a few more:

"And it shall come to pass, that whosoever shall call on the name of the LORD shall be delivered: for in mount Zion and in Jerusalem shall be deliverance, as the LORD hath said, and in the remnant whom the LORD shall call." (Joel 2:32)

"And it shall come to pass, that whosoever shall call on the name of the Lord shall be saved." (Acts 2:21)

"For whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved." (Rom 10:13)

 

[Leonard Sylvia]

 

 

I could be wrong, but my opinion (as to why you struggle with that from time to time) is as I mentioned earlier...it would make God the author of sin.

 

And how many times have I said that sin emanates from man? Again I ask, if I missed the answer I'm sorry, but did Pharaoh harden is own heart? Who hardened his heart?. So Pharaoh was already sinful. It wasn't from God. But yet God used it for His purpose. Rom 9:19-24  and way did God raise up the Assyrians only to judge them for what they did to Israel? You see Gods  way are above our ways, I don't think you comprehend that. That's why your theology fits into a nice little box that you pushed God into so you can explain everything away. Sometimes God does things that I have no answer for. It doesn't mean that my position is weak as you seemed to interpret.

Being sovereign doesn't equal total dominating control. 

either God is in control of all or He isn't control  at all.

[Leonard Sylvia]

Not in word, just as you can't find 'sovereign'. However, the example is abundant, both in old and new testaments.

"Notwithstanding ye would not go up, but rebelled against the commandment of the LORD your God:" (Deu 1:26)

"And the LORD said unto me, Say unto them, Go not up, neither fight; for I am not among you; lest ye be smitten before your enemies. So I spake unto you; and ye would not hear, but rebelled against the commandment of the LORD, and went presumptuously up into the hill." (Deu 1:42, 43)

"Because they have not hearkened to my words, saith the LORD, which I sent unto them by my servants the prophets, rising up early and sending them; but ye would not hear, saith the LORD." (Jer 29:19)

"O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, thou that killest the prophets, and stonest them which are sent unto thee, how often would I have gathered thy children together, even as a hen gathereth her chickens under her wings, and ye would not!" (Matt 23:37)

"Thus saith the LORD, Stand ye in the ways, and see, and ask for the old paths, where is the good way, and walk therein, and ye shall find rest for your souls. But they said, We will not walk therein." (Jer 6:16)

"For whosoever will save his life shall lose it: but whosoever will lose his life for my sake, the same shall save it." (Luke 9:24)

"And the Spirit and the bride say, Come. And let him that heareth say, Come. And let him that is athirst come. And whosoever will, let him take the water of life freely." (Rev 22:17).

These are all examples of people and nations exercising free will,

 

no, these are verses that show of sinful man, not people making a choice, remember, all have sinned and there are NO GOD SEEKERS!!

 

 

"And it shall come to pass, that whosoever shall call on the name of the LORD shall be delivered: for in mount Zion and in Jerusalem shall be deliverance, as the LORD hath said, and in the remnant whom the LORD shall call." (Joel 2:32)

"And it shall come to pass, that whosoever shall call on the name of the Lord shall be saved." (Acts 2:21)

"For whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved." (Rom 10:13)

 

the focus isn't on whosoever ; but rather the one who believes, the one preordained will come to repentance because God has for ordained it

[Alimantado]

Being sovereign doesn't equal total dominating control. God has the sovereign power to use total control or to grant a measure of freedom of action, or free will. We see the same thing with a parent and child. The parent could force their child to do everything just as they say, or in some areas they can choose to allow the child to take independent action. Either way, the parent is still sovereign. As well, God is sovereign whether He chooses to use His sovereignty in the form of taking total control or granting a measure of independence.

Knowing God is all wise, we can trust whatever course of action He takes it's for the ultimate fulfillment of His perfect plan.

either God is in control of all or He isn't control  at all.

This response from Leonard is just a bald assertion, a piece of rhetoric even, that doesn't explain anything at all, let alone address the criticisms (John's above, and mine from two weeks ago) of this particular argument of his.

 

[No Nicolaitans]

And how many times have I said that sin emanates from man?

And how many times have I asked where sin came from? How did it come into being?

And how many times have I said that sin emanates from man? Again I ask, if I missed the answer I'm sorry, but did Pharaoh harden is own heart? Who hardened his heart?. So Pharaoh was already sinful. It wasn't from God. But yet God used it for His purpose. Rom 9:19-24

If you read the account, you'll see that God hardened Pharaoh's heart...AND...Pharaoh hardened his own heart. Regardless, before any "heart-hardening" happened, at the very first meeting, Pharaoh was given the opportunity to let the people go...but he refused, and he had to pay the consequences for his disobedience to what God commanded. 

and way did God raise up the Assyrians only to judge them for what they did to Israel?

He used Assyria as judgment against sinful Israel; he judged Assyria because of their sinful arrogance.

You see Gods  way are above our ways,

Amen!

You see Gods  way are above our ways, I don't think you comprehend that.

Sorry Leonard, but I had to laugh when I read that...

That's why your theology fits into a nice little box that you pushed God into so you can explain everything away.

Man, please...

Sometimes God does things that I have no answer for. It doesn't mean that my position is weak as you seemed to interpret.

No, I don't think your position is weak Leonard...I think your position is wrong.

either God is in control of all or He isn't control  at all.

So...sin came from God?

 

 

[No Nicolaitans]

no, these are verses that show of sinful man, not people making a choice, remember, all have sinned and there are NO GOD SEEKERS!!

Ezra 7:13
I make a decree, that all they of the people of Israel, and of his priests and Levites, in my realm, which are minded of their own freewill to go up to Jerusalem, go with thee.

Now who keeps saying that freewill isn't in the Bible?

Edited to add...sorry, I forgot to include this about "NO GOD SEEKERS"...

You need to be more specific Leonard. The Bible is rife with verses about those who seek after God.

Edited September 17, 2015 by No Nicolaitans

[Ukulelemike]

no, these are verses that show of sinful man, not people making a choice, remember, all have sinned and there are NO GOD SEEKERS!!

Seriously? There's a difference? Sinful man makes decisions to follow or not follow God. These aren't people seeking or not seeking God, these are people who KNEW God, who KNEW his will, from the words of the law and the prophets, but they willingly rejected Him. They made a choice. Just in Matthew 23:37, Jesus makes it clear that it was HIS will to gather them, but they willingly and knowingly rejected Him.

 

the focus isn't on whosoever ; but rather the one who believes, the one preordained will come to repentance because God has for ordained it

Whosoever means just that, "WHOSOEVER". no preordained, just called, as all are called, all are lightened. They make the choice to respond to the call, or reject it.

I am really done with this-when a challenge is made to find any example of people exercising free will, and those examples are given, very CLEAR examples, I might add, people who plainly knew God's will beforehand and knowingly rejected Him, and those things are shrugged off as not being such, its clear the truth is just being ignored. When God has a people, and God says, "Thus saith the LORD..." and those people say, "No", this is clearly people defiantly and willingly rejecting God. I do not believe that God chose an entire nation to Himself, having already preordained that they would, as a whole, reject Him. KNOWING they would is a different thing, but already planning it, pre-ordaining it, what value is that for anyone?  "I am the LORD thy God, Thou shalt not...(but really, you will do what I say you must NOT, because that's my will for you to disobey me!). Sorry, for God to preordain anyone to sin is an unrighteous act. If God does not tempt man to sin, as He says He doesn't, he would not foreordain them to do the very same. I won't tempt you, but I'll MAKE you? Really? Sorry, that's not the God of the Bible nor the God I have entrusted my soul to.

[John81]

And how many times have I said that sin emanates from man? Again I ask, if I missed the answer I'm sorry, but did Pharaoh harden is own heart? Who hardened his heart?. So Pharaoh was already sinful. It wasn't from God. But yet God used it for His purpose. Rom 9:19-24  and way did God raise up the Assyrians only to judge them for what they did to Israel? You see Gods  way are above our ways, I don't think you comprehend that. That's why your theology fits into a nice little box that you pushed God into so you can explain everything away. Sometimes God does things that I have no answer for. It doesn't mean that my position is weak as you seemed to interpret.

either God is in control of all or He isn't control  at all.

Which you apparently missed the rest of my post and the point. God, who is in total control, can choose whether or not to exercise that total control by forcing His will at a given time or not. God is still in control if He allows, as a part of His total control, to give room for free choice. Allowing free choice, whether broadly or in limited fashion doesn't diminish God's sovereignty as He's still controlling the situation and outcome and, if He chooses, may step in at any time to change the situation as He chooses.

[No Nicolaitans]

either God is in control of all or He isn't control  at all.

If God is in control of all, and we have no freewill...then what about when we are judged? What's the purpose of it? Why would God give us rewards for the things he made us do?

What about the parable of the talents? For example...

Matthew 25:20-21
20   And so he that had received five talents came and brought other five talents, saying, Lord, thou deliveredst unto me five talents: behold, I have gained beside them five talents more
21   His lord said unto him, Well done, thou good and faithful servant: thou hast been faithful over a few things, I will make thee ruler over many things: enter thou into the joy of thy lord.

Leonard, can you honestly say that there is no freewill (and the results of freewill) displayed in those verses?

 

 

 

 

[Old-Pilgrim]

Hello Leonard, you have said at least once,

>>>But not unbelievers, they cannot please God [have fellowship with (my interpritation)].<<<<

It is true that unbelievers can't please God, but they can put their heart right so as to be willing to hear from him.

Psalms 50:23  Whoso offereth praise glorifieth me: and to him that ordereth his conversation aright will I shew the salvation of God.

[Salyan]

FYI for all involved in this thread, Leonard is no longer on OB and will not be able to respond.