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The Sovereignty of God


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Let me start answering with "Free Will":

2nd Peter 3:9 "The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance."
How could ANY man come to repentance if that person did not have the free will to choose whether to do so or not?
Notice the scripture doesn't say "just the ones who are preselected"here, it says ANY man

In Mark 16 Jesus told His disciples in verse 15: "And he said unto them, Go ye into all the world, and preach the gospel to every creature."
Now WHY would Jesus say to preach the gospel if only those who were preselected were the ones who would receive it?

John 3:16 " For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life."
Who can believe? WHOSOEVER

John 5:24 "24 Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that heareth my word, and believeth on him that sent me, hath everlasting life, and shall not come into condemnation; but is passed from death unto life."
Here's a good example of WHY we spread the gospel. Jesus made the qualifying statement:He who HEARS and BELIEVES... he does NOT add (just the preselected ones).

John 7:37-38
37 In the last day, that great day of the feast, Jesus stood and cried, saying, If any man thirst, let him come unto me, and drink.
38 He that believeth on me, as the scripture hath said, out of his belly shall flow rivers of living water.
Once again Jesus said ANY man (not just the preselected)

John 11:25 Jesus said unto her, I am the resurrection, and the life: he that believeth in me, though he were dead, yet shall he live:
WHO? He that believeth... He did NOT say he who was preselected.

I could go on and on with verse after verse after verse, showing us that God gave us free will to decide whether or not we as indiviuals will or will not decide to accept Him or not.
 
NOW onto your questions: Do you believe in a total sovereign God? Do you believe that there is some things that God doesn't know? As in the future or what man may or may not do? Is God ever surprised or caught off guard?

My answer is: GOD's mind is so infinite... we as mere humans cannot even begin to know HOW He does what He does and how dare we TRY to ascertain what God knows:
Job 38:4 "Where wast thou when I laid the foundations of the earth? declare, if thou hast understanding."
The rest of the chapter (as well as chapters 39-41) also go on to humble us when we begin to get puffed up and think we know the mind of God or HOW or WHY or WHAT He thinks or does. 

The next time a person tries to determine what God knows, I suggest we should humble ourselves within His words:
Isaiah 55:8-9
8 "For my thoughts are not your thoughts, neither are your ways my ways, saith the Lord."
9 "For as the heavens are higher than the earth, so are my ways higher than your ways, and my thoughts than your thoughts."

 

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Glad to have you back, -Let me ask you; are you an open theist?

No.

Do you think from these verses that God was caught off guard?

No.

First off let me answer this by saying that Scripture doesn't contradict itself. Scripture says God is omniscient, He knows the past and future, or prophecy couldn't be trusted. So if God were not to have any of these qualities, even to the minute degree, He would violate His own holiness.

Very true.

So you have to ask yourself; was God not thinking when the Jews sinned against God? for Him to be surprised would mean that He isn't being God.

No, I don't have to ask myself that question. The verses (that I asked you to consider) in no way imply such.

The answer is simple, This is God basically saying "I didn't command them to do this (1), these are not thoughts I entertain, (3)...", to use today's venacular.

You left out part of it (#2) and kind of twisted #3...

  1. God didn't command them to do it.
  2. God didn't tell them to do it.
  3. It never entered God's mind to have them do it.

Still, by what you wrote from your interpretation of the verses, I see that you admit that they did these things of their own free will.

Now, can you explain the following verse apart from man's free will? And before you attribute open theism to me because of this verse saying "I knew it not", you do realize that to "know" has different meanings in scripture I hope. In this case, "knew" means "instructed". Now, can you explain this verse apart from man's free will?

Hosea 8:4
They have set up kings, but not by me: they have made princes, and I knew it not: of their silver and their gold have they made them idols, that they may be cut off.

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Ge 1:26 And God said, Let us make man in our image, after our likeness: and let them have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl of the air, and over the cattle, and over all the earth, and over every creeping thing that creepeth upon the earth.

There you go, God by his free will gave man free will. (my key board is going) My views are on my blog.

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http://rabmour.wix.com/lifes-great-goal#!Foreknowledge-Freewill-Election/c1q8z/553d68d60cf23d0164544894

It is true what the OFP said earlier, about knowing all and having all power are 2 different things. What I put on my blog might be simplistic, but I think it is at least part of truth. God could know the future in different ways, but there is no way that anything could be hidden from him.

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Leonard:

 

I'm apparently not techie enough to figure out how to link (I tried) but if you go to "Home" then "Welcome to Online Baptist" then "Announcements" you'll find it. It should have showed up on your "New Postings" (or threads, or comments, or however it's listed)

 

As to "limiting omniscience", I gave it. He knew what was in the Pharisees' hearts and yet (here's the limitation) He said the Son didn't know the day nor hour of His coming.

Edited by OLD fashioned preacher
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hello Old Fashioned Preacher, do you mean a link like the one I did in my last post there? coz if you do it is easy, you just go to the page you want to show someone and go to top and select and copy the text at the top which usually starts with '' www. '' copy the whole line and then paste it in here. All done using the right click on the mouse.

 

If you mean something diffrent, then I don't know how to do it either. :(

 

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NN wasn't even talking about omniscience in the post you quote, so where do you get the idea he might be advocating open theism? He was talking about free will. See: "...you can't explain these verses apart from free will." NN is obviously arguing that God is claiming that he did not intend for the people to do those things (which isn't necessarily the same as not knowing they would), i.e. they did them of their own volition and not God's. 

yes I see where I misread that, that's what happens when you answer at midnight and you should be in bed:D. God's will is never thwarted but mans does violate God's preceptive will. example; God says we should not kill, but we do. He commands all to repent, not everyone will.But it is something that doesn't take God by surprise.

By the way, I agree with OFP that sovereignty and omniscience are different things. 'Sovereignty' is an English word that refers to authority, not to awareness.

So are you saying that God is limited in His awareness?

In these discussions, a distinction is usually made between God's omniscience (extent of awareness) and God's omnipotence (extent of authority, or sovereignty), notwithstanding other properties like omnipresence and immutability. Trying to mix both those concepts under the title sovereignty will just lead to a muddle, imo.

So I guess my own answer to your questions would be yes I believe in a total sovereign God and no I don't think there are some things that God does not know and moreover I see those as unrelated questions.

Let me start answering with "Free Will":

2nd Peter 3:9 "The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance."
How could ANY man come to repentance if that person did not have the free will to choose whether to do so or not?
Notice the scripture doesn't say "just the ones who are preselected"here, it says ANY man

In Mark 16 Jesus told His disciples in verse 15: "And he said unto them, Go ye into all the world, and preach the gospel to every creature."
Now WHY would Jesus say to preach the gospel if only those who were preselected were the ones who would receive it?

John 3:16 " For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life."
Who can believe? WHOSOEVER

John 5:24 "24 Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that heareth my word, and believeth on him that sent me, hath everlasting life, and shall not come into condemnation; but is passed from death unto life."
Here's a good example of WHY we spread the gospel. Jesus made the qualifying statement:He who HEARS and BELIEVES... he does NOT add (just the preselected ones).

John 7:37-38
37 In the last day, that great day of the feast, Jesus stood and cried, saying, If any man thirst, let him come unto me, and drink.
38 He that believeth on me, as the scripture hath said, out of his belly shall flow rivers of living water.
Once again Jesus said ANY man (not just the preselected)

John 11:25 Jesus said unto her, I am the resurrection, and the life: he that believeth in me, though he were dead, yet shall he live:
WHO? He that believeth... He did NOT say he who was preselected.

I could go on and on with verse after verse after verse, showing us that God gave us free will to decide whether or not we as indiviuals will or will not decide to accept Him or not.

Hey Ronda, I will answer this over at the free will thread later,.....
 
NOW onto your questions: Do you believe in a total sovereign God? Do you believe that there is some things that God doesn't know? As in the future or what man may or may not do? Is God ever surprised or caught off guard?

My answer is: GOD's mind is so infinite... we as mere humans cannot even begin to know HOW He does what He does and how dare we TRY to ascertain what God knows:
Job 38:4 "Where wast thou when I laid the foundations of the earth? declare, if thou hast understanding."
The rest of the chapter (as well as chapters 39-41) also go on to humble us when we begin to get puffed up and think we know the mind of God or HOW or WHY or WHAT He thinks or does. 

The next time a person tries to determine what God knows, I suggest we should humble ourselves within His words:
Isaiah 55:8-9
8 "For my thoughts are not your thoughts, neither are your ways my ways, saith the Lord."
9 "For as the heavens are higher than the earth, so are my ways higher than your ways, and my thoughts than your thoughts."

absolutley true,

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Ge 1:26 And God said, Let us make man in our image, after our likeness: and let them have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl of the air, and over the cattle, and over all the earth, and over every creeping thing that creepeth upon the earth.

There you go, God by his free will gave man free will. (my key board is going) My views are on my blog.

first off, this is God giving man dominion over the Earth,  This has nothing really to do with Man having free will against God's sovereignty. God ordains all the actions of man (Proverbs 20:24).  

Leonard:

 

I'm apparently not techie enough to figure out how to link (I tried) but if you go to "Home" then "Welcome to Online Baptist" then "Announcements" you'll find it. It should have showed up on your "New Postings" (or threads, or comments, or however it's listed)

 

As to "limiting omniscience", I gave it. He knew what was in the Pharisees' hearts and yet (here's the limitation) He said the Son didn't know the day nor hour of His coming.

I read the thread and it appears that differing viewpoints are not tolerated. That's what I took away from it. Some of the things that you oppose I would be for. I have said before, I don't know anybody who are of a dispensationslist viewpoint so I wanted to come here and interact. So far, sadly, it has been disappointing.

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first off, this is God giving man dominion over the Earth,  This has nothing really to do with Man having free will against God's sovereignty. God ordains all the actions of man (Proverbs 20:24).  

 

Leonard: I think if you are free to ponder what it means when God gave man dominion, you will surly come to the conclusion that dominion must by necessity include power to exercise ones own God given authority, it is free will within God's authority. God gave man a space and the rule over it, sort of like as husbandsman, Mt 21:33 

I used to believe in determinism, until I noticed a contradiction in Scripture, then another, then another, something like dominoes. A false theology is stubborn because it becomes an Idol which stands in the place of truth, very blinding. I believed that error for some twenty years, before the light of Scripture started to shine through.

As for Pr 20:24 Man's goings are of the LORD; how can a man then understand his own way? One of the the first things that the Lord does is wakes us up so we can't sleep, some time latter he makes us sleep so we can't stay awake, he has may other more subtle ways in which he sends us or sends us not, such as our measure of intelligence, of imagination, inspiration, fear, dread, He motivates by His Spirit, or by His hand or by his rod, or by any of his many types of angels, but our life is real, we are responsible to believe and to do the right thing.

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Leonard: I think if you are free to ponder what it means when God gave man dominion, you will surly come to the conclusion that dominion must by necessity include power to exercise ones own God given authority, it is free will within God's authority. God gave man a space and the rule over it, sort of like as husbandsman, Mt 21:33 

Im sorry, but I am not following you in this parable. I am not sure what you are getting at in trying to explain your view point.

I used to believe in determinism, until I noticed a contradiction in Scripture, then another, then another, something like dominoes. A false theology is stubborn because it becomes an Idol which stands in the place of truth, very blinding. I believed that error for some twenty years, before the light of Scripture started to shine through.

As for Pr 20:24 Man's goings are of the LORD; how can a man then understand his own way? One of the the first things that the Lord does is wakes us up so we can't sleep, some time latter he makes us sleep so we can't stay awake, he has may other more subtle ways in which he sends us or sends us not, such as our measure of intelligence, of imagination, inspiration, fear, dread, He motivates by His Spirit, or by His hand or by his rod, or by any of his many types of angels, but our life is real, we are responsible to believe and to do the right thing.

I believe this is a misinterpretation of the proverb. We are directed by the Lord, because we don't know what God has for us, we don't know the future. What his plans are; a NT cross reference is James 4:13-14

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Thanks for responses, Leonard. Fine to take your time.

your welcome! I think you are not giving God enough credit for how sovereign He really is. by the verses I provided so far, I see it as God in total control of man in all aspects of life and beyond. How can God tell Moses what he was going to do to the Egyptians, especially about them going to find favor with Isreal and would give them things on their way out,..and actually did it in ch 12! It wasn't the Egyptians free will to give it away, It was God moving among them.

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your welcome! I think you are not giving God enough credit for how sovereign He really is. by the verses I provided so far, I see it as God in total control of man in all aspects of life and beyond. How can God tell Moses what he was going to do to the Egyptians, especially about them going to find favor with Isreal and would give them things on their way out,..and actually did it in ch 12! It wasn't the Egyptians free will to give it away, It was God moving among them.

Thanks, Leonard. I appreciate there are verses that seem to support the reformed/Calvinist/predetermination view. When we have these discussions, each of us can easily fire off all the verses we think most favour our position, or that do the most violence to anothers' position, like howitzers on a battle field. I'm not really interested in getting into that kind of a discussion right now--maybe others are (though note that the forum rules are clear on this not being first and foremost a debate forum). I don't mind taking verses or arguments one at a time, but then I already tried to do that in the other thread...

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Thanks, Leonard. I appreciate there are verses that seem to support the reformed/Calvinist/predetermination view. When we have these discussions, each of us can easily fire off all the verses we think most favour our position, or that do the most violence to anothers' position, like howitzers on a battle field. I'm not really interested in getting into that kind of a discussion right now--maybe others are (though note that the forum rules are clear on this not being first and foremost a debate forum). I don't mind taking verses or arguments one at a time, but then I already tried to do that in the other thread...

I don't see how you are doing damage. But I think it's evident that you don't fully understand the concept of God sovereignty, or you don't fully give God credit for his work in man's life. I don't understand how anyone cannot give God glory fully, where He deserves it. Rather than give man partial credit for something that God clearly has done.

Edited by Leonard Sylvia
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