The Sovereignty of God

[Leonard Sylvia]

how has everyone been. It's been a crazy week.

Here is a question for us to ponder going into the weekend. Do you believe in the Sovereignty of God? Do you believe in a total sovereign God? Do you believe that there is some things that God doesn't know? As in the future or what man may or may not do? Is God ever surprised or caught off guard?

hope you all have a great weekend with your families,.....

[wretched]

how has everyone been. It's been a crazy week.

Here is a question for us to ponder going into the weekend. Do you believe in the Sovereignty of God? Do you believe in a total sovereign God? Do you believe that there is some things that God doesn't know? As in the future or what man may or may not do? Is God ever surprised or caught off guard?

hope you all have a great weekend with your families,.....

He knows all and it is impossible to surprise Him...

The problem with people who harp on this type of idea is that they think His knowledge applies to them in some way alleviating their sole purpose after salvation which is to the preach the Gospel to every person and to CEASE NOT daily.

He knows everything friend, you and I know jack squat and jack already left town. Lets get busy winning the lost and stop wasting our lives.

[OLD fashioned preacher]

Omniscience and Sovereignty are two different things.

Omniscience --- God knows everything hidden and secret, past, present, future.       Yep

Sovereignty --- God has the authority to do as He pleases.        Yep. If He chose to violate His Word, who's going to be able to stop Him?

 

Ah, but alas -- He has, of His own volition, chosen to confine himself at times. He righteousness and justice confine Him to His Word due to His own volition. He gives man the ability to refuse the invitation of "let him come" (think, "whom ye do always resist").  

This is the same God who chose to limit his omniscience -- though he knew what the Pharisees "said within themselves", yet he said the Son knew not the "day nor hour" (which I believe He now knows).

 

 

Oh yeah, lest you decide to use responses to this thread as an opportunity to get aggressive in a promotion of Sovereign Grace doctrine -- you'd best read the thread entitled "Announcement from the Mod room" (I think that's the title).

Edited September 4, 2015 by OLD fashioned preacher

[heartstrings]

God is everywhere, He fills time, eternity and space. He knows how many hairs are on your head, knows when every sparrow drops to the ground, he knows the number, size, velocity and location of every molecule, atom, electron, proton, quark, neutrino and photon in the universe at any given time. He is all powerful and neither small nor great will escape His mighty wrath. But as to some people's definition of "sovereign": No, He is not. He is a God with a free will and He graciously extends the same freedom to every man. You can say yes to Him and He will take you to heaven. Reject Him, and He will put you in Hell....no exceptions, no escape.

Omniscience and Sovereignty are two different things.

Omniscience --- God knows everything hidden and secret, past, present, future.       Yep

Sovereignty --- God has the authority to do as He pleases.        Yep. If He chose to violate His Word, who's going to be able to stop Him?

 

Ah, but alas -- He has, of His own volition, chosen to confine himself at times. He righteousness and justice confine Him to His Word due to His own volition. He gives man the ability to refuse the invitation of "let him come" (think, "whom ye do always resist").  

This is the same God who chose to limit his omniscience -- though he knew when the Pharisees said "within themselves, yet he said the Son knew not the "day nor hour" (which I believe He now knows).

 

 

Oh yeah, lest you decide to use responses to this thread as an opportunity to get aggressive in a promotion of Sovereign Grace doctrine -- you'd best read the thread entitled "Announcement from the Mod room" (I think that's the title).

Exactly.

[heartstrings]

 A "sovereign" entity, can make robots, but the all powerful one can make things which the power to do things of their own volition. He can make something with a soul and spirit which can willingly say "I love Him because He first loved me."

[Leonard Sylvia]

Oh yeah, lest you decide to use responses to this thread as an opportunity to get aggressive in a promotion of Sovereign Grace doctrine -- you'd best read the thread entitled "Announcement from the Mod room" (I think that's the title).

 

  funny you all went there. I proved what I wanted in the "Free Will" thread. But I wasn't going there with this. I have been having conversations with one of my customers over this very subject for months now. He is an Open Theist and claims that God is ever learning and God is surprised or learns what man will do over a given incident. 

I do make the claim though that synergism/free will eventually leads to open theism. But that wasn't what I am trying to do. My goal was to basically get a feel for the dispensationslist view on this. I do not personally know anyone who holds to this doctrine. So I come here to learn. 

To OFP Is this how you engage people when you talk to them about Christ?or anybody else that disagrees  with you? You just shut down the conversation? How do you vocalize the Gospel if someone mounts an argument  that challenges a specific position that is contrary to yours?

 

 

 A "sovereign" entity, can make robots, but the all powerful one can make things which the power to do things of their own volition. He can make something with a soul and spirit which can willingly say "I love Him because He first loved me."

he doesn't make robots, he creates a new heart in somebody

Ezekial 36:

25 Then will I sprinkle clean water upon you, and ye shall be clean: from all your filthiness, and from all your idols, will I cleanse you.

26 A new heart also will I give you, and a new spirit will I put within you: and I will take away the stony heart out of your flesh, and I will give you an heart of flesh.

27 And I will put my spirit within you, and cause you to walk in my statutes, and ye shall keep my judgments, and do them.

do you see vs.27? He makes a person new that is able to worship God

Edited September 4, 2015 by Leonard Sylvia

[No Nicolaitans]

 

  funny you all went there. I proved what I wanted in the "Free Will" thread.

Okay, I decided to make a quick appearance after being gone for a while. I don't know what you thought you proved about free will, and I don't know exactly what your definition of God's sovereignty is...but you can't explain these verses apart from free will. This is God talking...read them carefully.

Jeremiah 19:4-5

Because they have forsaken me, and have estranged this place, and have burned incense in it unto other gods, whom neither they nor their fathers have known, nor the kings of Judah, and have filled this place with the blood of innocents;

They have built also the high places of Baal, to burn their sons with fire for burnt offerings unto Baal, which I commanded not, nor spake it, neither came it into my mind:

 

Jeremiah 32:32-35

Because of all the evil of the children of Israel and of the children of Judah, which they have done to provoke me to anger, they, their kings, their princes, their priests, and their prophets, and the men of Judah, and the inhabitants of Jerusalem.

And they have turned unto me the back, and not the face: though I taught them, rising up early and teaching them, yet they have not hearkened to receive instruction.

But they set their abominations in the house, which is called by my name, to defile it.

And they built the high places of Baal, which are in the valley of the son of Hinnom, to cause their sons and their daughters to pass through the fire unto Molech; which I commanded them not, neither came it into my mind, that they should do this abomination, to cause Judah to sin.

 

Edited September 4, 2015 by No Nicolaitans

[OLD fashioned preacher]

 

To OFP Is this how you engage people when you talk to them about Christ?or anybody else that disagrees  with you? You just shut down the conversation? How do you vocalize the Gospel if someone mounts an argument  that challenges a specific position that is contrary to yours?

 

 

No sense in trying to read into one of my posts something I did not say -- you'll miss at least 90% of the time.

I wasn't telling you to shut up, I wasn't closing the topic (if I was going to do that, I would have either locked or deleted the OP). It appears that you may not have read my "recommended reading list".

I was actually doing you a favor by requesting you read something that you may have not seen yet. I could have left it unsaid and shrugged my shoulders and said, "Wow, I hate it when that happens", if you crossed the wrong mod with no apparent warning. You had not crossed a line, I was trying to let you know in advance that there's no guardrail past the unpaved shoulder.

Edited September 4, 2015 by OLD fashioned preacher

[Alimantado]

 funny you all went there. I proved what I wanted in the "Free Will" thread. But I wasn't going there with this. I have been having conversations with one of my customers over this very subject for months now. He is an Open Theist and claims that God is ever learning and God is surprised or learns what man will do over a given incident. 

I do make the claim though that synergism/free will eventually leads to open theism. But that wasn't what I am trying to do. My goal was to basically get a feel for the dispensationslist view on this. I do not personally know anyone who holds to this doctrine. So I come here to learn.

To me it looked more like you left claims unargued for, and didn't respond to rebuttals. Anyway... I haven't seen open theism come up very much on this board, but one of the few times was actually earlier this year. The thread doesn't start on that topic, but moves onto it later. I think the same chap started another thread on much the same thing, but I can't find it.

[Leonard Sylvia]

Omniscience and Sovereignty are two different things. Yes, His omniscience is part of His sovereignty.

Omniscience --- God knows everything hidden and secret, past, present, future.       Yep

Sovereignty --- God has the authority to do as He pleases.        Yep. If He chose to violate His Word, who's going to be able to stop Him?

 

Ah, but alas -- He has, of His own volition, chosen to confine himself at times. He righteousness and justice confine Him to His Word due to His own volition.can you show me where God says he limits his omniscience?  He gives man the ability to refuse the invitation of "let him come" (think, "whom ye do always resist").  Im sure you have heard the saying "Given instruction does not imply capacity to follow", that applies here.

This is the same God who chose to limit his omniscience -- though he knew what the Pharisees "said within themselves", yet he said the Son knew not the "day nor hour" (which I believe He now knows).

Jesus was fully man and fully God, remember Jesus knew their hearts also. 

 

 

Oh yeah, lest you decide to use responses to this thread as an opportunity to get aggressive in a promotion of Sovereign Grace doctrine -- you'd best read the thread entitled "Announcement from the Mod room" (I think that's the title). I looked can you link it to me? I cant find it.

 

No sense in trying to read into one of my posts something I did not say -- you'll miss at least 90% of the time.

I wasn't telling you to shut up, I wasn't closing the topic (if I was going to do that, I would have either locked or deleted the OP). It appears that you may not have read my "recommended reading list".

I was actually doing you a favor by requesting you read something that you may have not seen yet. I could have left it unsaid and shrugged my shoulders and said, "Wow, I hate it when that happens", if you crossed the wrong mod with no apparent warning. You had not crossed a line, I was trying to let you know in advance that there's no guardrail past the unpaved shoulder.

Im sorry, I took it the other way

Edited September 5, 2015 by Leonard Sylvia

[Leonard Sylvia]

To me it looked more like you left claims unargued for, and didn't respond to rebuttals.

I went back and reread the thread, I thought I covered everything, is there something I need to answer you feel I didn't adequately answer? 

[Leonard Sylvia]

Okay, I decided to make a quick appearance after being gone for a while. I don't know what you thought you proved about free will, and I don't know exactly what your definition of God's sovereignty is...but you can't explain these verses apart from free will. This is God talking...read them carefully.

Jeremiah 19:4-5

Because they have forsaken me, and have estranged this place, and have burned incense in it unto other gods, whom neither they nor their fathers have known, nor the kings of Judah, and have filled this place with the blood of innocents;

They have built also the high places of Baal, to burn their sons with fire for burnt offerings unto Baal, which I commanded not, nor spake it, neither came it into my mind:Jeremiah 32:32-35

Because of all the evil of the children of Israel and of the children of Judah, which they have done to provoke me to anger, they, their kings, their princes, their priests, and their prophets, and the men of Judah, and the inhabitants of Jerusalem.

And they have turned unto me the back, and not the face: though I taught them, rising up early and teaching them, yet they have not hearkened to receive instruction.

But they set their abominations in the house, which is called by my name, to defile it.

And they built the high places of Baal, which are in the valley of the son of Hinnom, to cause their sons and their daughters to pass through the fire unto Molech; which I commanded them not, neither came it into my mind, that they should do this abomination, to cause Judah to sin.

Glad to have you back, -Let me ask you; are you an open theist? Do you think from these verses that God was caught off guard?

First off let me answer this by saying that Scripture doesn't contradict itself. Scripture says God is omniscient, He knows the past and future, or prophecy couldn't be trusted. So if God were not to have any of these qualities, even to the minute degree, He would violate His own holiness.

So you have to ask yourself; was God not thinking when the Jews sinned against God? for Him to be surprised would mean that He isn't being God. The answer is simple, This is God basically saying "I didn't command them to do this, these are not thoughts I entertain,...", to use today's venacular.

Edited September 5, 2015 by Leonard Sylvia

[MountainChristian]

Matthew 8:10 When Jesus heard it, he marvelled, and said to them that followed, Verily I say unto you, I have not found so great faith, no, not in Israel.

Mark 6:6 And he (Jesus) marvelled because of their unbelief. And he went round about the villages, teaching.

 

Luke 7:9 When Jesus heard these things, he marvelled at him, and turned him about, and said unto the people that followed him, I say unto you, I have not found so great faith, no, not in Israel.

 

Jesus could be surprised, but I've often wondered if it was because He limited His powers being in a human body. That it was part of His humbleness.

 

God the Father never limited His powers so I think it was impossible for Him to be surprised. The greatness of God can never be understood by the limited mind of man. But when we get our new bodies this limit will become unlimited because we shall see him as he is.

 

Leonard, I know this troubles you. The limits of our human minds trying to understand the unlimited. At some point to find peace a man has to accept there are things in Scripture that is beyond our limits. Understanding God's mind and His will is beyond our limits. It seems like you are at a great turning point in your spiritual life. I hope you follow Paul and glory in your weakness so that you can accept the unknowable.

 

Ken

 

[Alimantado]

I went back and reread the thread, I thought I covered everything, is there something I need to answer you feel I didn't adequately answer? 

You made a logical argument that God can't be truly sovereign by definition if man has a choice about his salvation but then didn't respond to my criticisms of that argument.

Also, I feel you didn't adequately explain your interpretation of Romans 8:29. You said 'It's essentially saying that "God knew ahead of time because he ordained it"', so you've still got the separate concepts of foreknowledge and predestination in there but, obviously, ordered differently to how others here intepret the verse. You claim this is valid because the word 'foreknowledge' at the beginning of the verse can be re-translated as 'predestination' (although you also didn't deal with SFIC's criticism of your translation) but you haven't really shown us how the rest of verse 29 and 30 works in light of that--for example you haven't shown which bit does now mean foreknow, given your interpretation of the verse is "God knew ahead of time because he ordained it". All you've done is quote the entire two verses and claim it makes sense in context--that's not an explanation.

I don't mind if you don't explain, since it's your time, but there we are: if we want to have a discussion then that means backing up arguments and responding to questions and rebuttals.

[Alimantado]

Glad to have you back, -Let me ask you; are you an open theist? Do you think from these verses that God was caught off guard?

First off let me answer this by saying that Scripture doesn't contradict itself. Scripture says God is omniscient, He knows the past and future, or prophecy couldn't be trusted. So if God were not to have any of these qualities, even to the minute degree, He would violate His own holiness.

So you have to ask yourself; was God not thinking when the Jews sinned against God? for Him to be surprised would mean that He isn't being God. The answer is simple, This is God basically saying "I didn't command them to do this, these are not thoughts I entertain,...", to use today's venacular.

NN wasn't even talking about omniscience in the post you quote, so where do you get the idea he might be advocating open theism? He was talking about free will. See: "...you can't explain these verses apart from free will." NN is obviously arguing that God is claiming that he did not intend for the people to do those things (which isn't necessarily the same as not knowing they would), i.e. they did them of their own volition and not God's.

By the way, I agree with OFP that sovereignty and omniscience are different things. 'Sovereignty' is an English word that refers to authority, not to awareness. In these discussions, a distinction is usually made between God's omniscience (extent of awareness) and God's omnipotence (extent of authority, or sovereignty), notwithstanding other properties like omnipresence and immutability. Trying to mix both those concepts under the title sovereignty will just lead to a muddle, imo.

So I guess my own answer to your questions would be yes I believe in a total sovereign God and no I don't think there are some things that God does not know and moreover I see those as unrelated questions.