One Rapture or Two?

[Guest Guest]

The two witnesses might be Enoch and Elijah. That's what my husband thinks, anyway. :smile

[Anon]

I think Moses and Elijah for the witnesses...same as the Mt of Transfiguration, as well as hints in Revelation seem to point that way.

[Guest Guest]

I think Moses and Elijah for the witnesses...same as the Mt of Transfiguration' date=' as well as hints in Revelation seem to point that way.[/quote']

That would be an interesting topic, if anyone feels like discussing it. Seriously, it's not something I've looked into... so I'd like to see what others here believe (based on what they've seen in Scripture) about who the two witnesses are.

[Anon]

One main verse my hub points out is this:

6 These have power to shut heaven, that it rain not in the days of their prophecy: and have power over waters to turn them to blood, and to smite the earth with all plagues, as often as they will.

In history, Elijah did the first....and Moses did the second.

Also Elijah and Moses were on the Mt. of Transfiguration.

Enoch and Elijah would be logical (I used to believe that) because they never died...but as far as any clues the Bible gives, Moses and Elijah fit the verse listed above, plus the appearance with Christ in the Gospels.

[pneu-engine]

One main verse my hub points out is this:

6 These have power to shut heaven, that it rain not in the days of their prophecy: and have power over waters to turn them to blood, and to smite the earth with all plagues, as often as they will.

In history, Elijah did the first....and Moses did the second.

Also Elijah and Moses were on the Mt. of Transfiguration.

Enoch and Elijah would be logical (I used to believe that) because they never died....but as far as any clues the Bible gives, Moses and Elijah fit the verse listed above, plus the appearance with Christ in the Gospels.

Add to this reasoning the fact that Enoch is a "type" of the Raptured Church age saints that will never die because they will be alive at the time of the Rapture. E.G. If the Rapture of the Church occurred right now all of us believers would be in that group. Neither Enoch nor we will ever come back to earth to die.

Enoch walked with God so closely that God may have revealed to him the occurrence of the Great Flood to come upon the earth. I say this because he named his son Methuselah, which means, "When he dies it will come". I believe the antecedent to that pronoun "it" is the Great Flood. Also, we are told, "As the days of Noe (i.e. Noah) so shall also the coming of the Son of Man be." Matt. 24:37. There are a lot of parallels re. the time just before the Flood and the time before the Tribulation. They ate, they drank and they married all with no thought of God in their hearts. We see the same thing happening today. Just look how Christendom is being watered down to make it null and void by CCM, new perversions of the Bible and emerging seeker-friendly churches.

[Anon]

Right, that too, I forgot about that one.

[Truthseeking]

I think Moses and Elijah for the witnesses...same as the Mt of Transfiguration' date=' as well as hints in Revelation seem to point that way.[/quote']

Yeah, That would make sense....

[Guest Guest]

That would be an interesting topic, if anyone feels like discussing it. Seriously, it's not something I've looked into... so I'd like to see what others here believe (based on what they've seen in Scripture) about who the two witnesses are.

"Malachi 4:5-6 Behold, I will send you Elijah the prophet before the coming of the great and dreadful day of the LORD: And he shall turn the heart of the fathers to the children, and the heart of the children to their fathers, lest I come and smite the earth with a curse."

I think it is likely that Elijah(or possibly someone in the spirit and power of Elijah like John the baptist was) is one of the two witnesses because of this verse. I believe this is one of those passages with a double meaning(like Isaiah 61:1-7 for example). Part of it applies to his first coming, and part of it applies to his second coming for judgement.

The first part applies to his second coming for judgement because that is "the great and dreadful day of the LORD". His first coming was clearly not "the great and dreadful day of the LORD". If you search the "day of the LORD" in scripture it always deals with his second coming and not his first coming. However, the 'And he shall turn the heart of the fathers to the children, and the heart of the children to their fathers, lest I come and smite the earth with a curse." applies to John the Baptist coming in the spirit and power of Elijah before Christs first coming.

John 1:19-23 And this is the record of John, when the Jews sent priests and Levites from Jerusalem to ask him, Who art thou? And he confessed, and denied not; but confessed, I am not the Christ. And they asked him, What then? Art thou Elias? And he saith, I am not. Art thou that prophet? And he answered, No. Then said they unto him, Who art thou? that we may give an answer to them that sent us. What sayest thou of thyself? He said, I am the voice of one crying in the wilderness, Make straight the way of the Lord, as said the prophet Esaias.

So here John directly denied being Elijah. Instead he quotes from Isaiah 40 which is about Christs first coming:

"Isaiah 40:1-5 Comfort ye, comfort ye my people, saith your God. Speak ye comfortably to Jerusalem, and cry unto her, that her warfare is accomplished, that her iniquity is pardoned: for she hath received of the Lord's hand double for all her sins. The voice of him that crieth in the wilderness, Prepare ye the way of the LORD, make straight in the desert a highway for our God. Every valley shall be exalted, and every mountain and hill shall be made low: and the crooked shall be made straight, and the rough places plain: And the glory of the LORD shall be revealed, and all flesh shall see it together: for the mouth of the LORD hath spoken it."

Yet, on the other hand, Christ calls John Elijah, and here is where I believe the double meaning comes into play...

Matthew 11:13-15 For all the prophets and the law prophesied until John. And if ye will receive it, this is Elias, which was for to come. He that hath ears to hear, let him hear.

Notice a couple of things about this passage though, first, he says: "And if ye will receive it" and second he says: "He that hath ears to hear, let him hear."

As far as I know every other time Christ says: "He that hath ears to hear, let him hear." in scripture, he is speaking in a parable.

"Matthew 17:10-12 And his disciples asked him, saying, Why then say the scribes that Elias must first come? And Jesus answered and said unto them, Elias truly shall first come, and restore all things. But I say unto you, That Elias is come already, and they knew him not, but have done unto him whatsoever they listed. Likewise shall also the Son of man suffer of them."

Notice the unusual way of putting it. first he says: "Elias truly SHALL first come, and restore all things." Notice the "shall" which would be an odd way of putting something that is in past tense. Then he says: "But I say unto you, That Elias is come already, and they knew him not, but have done unto him whatsoever they listed." Speaking of John the Baptist. Still, I think from the way he put it, a double meaning is quite likely...

I don't feel that the proof is strong enough to be SURE, but it is a good possibility...

[PreacherBen]

Anyways, back to the original quesiton: One rapture or two of the saved. Consider the following passage, which though there are many thoughts on resurrection, and etc., the Bible gives us two of end times significance.

Rev 20:4 And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and [i saw] the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received [his] mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years.

Rev 20:5 But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. This [is] the first resurrection.

Rev 20:6 Blessed and holy [is] he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years.

Those mentioned in the underlined text are those who will be part of the second resurrection. Those mentioned in vss. 4, the end of 5, and 6 are partakers of the first resurrection. Following is the second resurrection.

Rev 20:12 And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is [the book] of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works.

Rev 20:13 And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works.

Here is Pauls accout of the sequence of events:

1Th 4:15 For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive [and] remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep.
1Th 4:16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:

1Th 4:17 Then we which are alive [and] remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.

So, again, is there two raptures? Paul only mentions one, and when it occurs. Explain.

Bro. Ben

[kingdom-heir]

PreacherBen

I started my christian studies believing in the rapture and future 70th week of Daniel's prophecy, etc. But after several thousands of hours of studying, I found that all of the dispensational doctrines are fabricated misinterpretations of the Bible. If you will take a look at www.monergism.com under directory in controversial issues, there is much info about dispensationalism. Also for a good handle on what beliefs people had about the end times, get "John's Revelation Unveiled" by Dr. Francis Nigel Lee, he covered all church history and hundreds of the patriarches. You will be amazed at how much is in that book!

[Guest Guest]

I started my christian studies believing in the rapture and future 70th week of Daniel's prophecy, etc.

"1 Corinthians 15:51-55 Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed, In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed. For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality. So when this corruptible shall have put on incorruption, and this mortal shall have put on immortality, then shall be brought to pass the saying that is written, Death is swallowed up in victory. O death, where is thy sting? O grave, where is thy victory?"

[kingdom-heir]

Seth Doty

Please read the documents I indicated. Please!

[Guest Guest]

I already looked at it. It seemed to be hyper calvinistic and unbiblical.

[Wilchbla]

There are two raptures. One before the time of Jacob's trouble and one in the mid point of that time period.

That is where much confusion has been done, by making all the references apply to only one catching away, folks have put the church in the middle trib point rapture.

Do some more homework before you come back and ask for the verses. You have the verses. You simply need to place them at the right junctures.

God bless,

Calvary

This is correct. The two raptures deal with two different groups of people at two different periods of history. Most people who wrest scriptures to their own destruction do it by take verses that apply to Jews and lay them down on the church.

Read Isaiah 26 and Revelation 13 for the rapture at the midway point of Jacob's trouble or at the end of the "beginning of sorrows" and at the beginning of "the great tribulation."

Bill

[dblev]

Ben

I do realize in Rev. 20:5-6 we are told of two resurrections and two deaths; however, Christ teaches that there will be only one physical resurrection which occurs at His second coming (John 5:28-29, 6:39, 40, 44, 54, 12:48; Acts. 24:15), so as there is only one physical death there is only one physical resurrection. So what is ment by two resurrections and two deaths in Rev. 20:5-6? In order to understand we must consult Scripture. Christ Himself speaks of two resurrections in John 5, and from His teaching we can gain understanding of when the two resurrections in Rev. 20:5-6 take place. In John 5:25 Jesus explains that there is a current resurrection which is now taking place as well as a future resurrection which will later take place, as He says, ?the hour is coming, and now is, when the dead will hear the voice of the Son of God; and those who hear will live.? In the preceding verse Jesus explains that whoever hears His Word and believes in Him ?has passed from death into life? (John 5:24). Here Christ clearly teaches that upon belief Him one passes from death unto life, establishing the first resurrection, a spiritual resurrection, and this resurrection is echoed all throughout the New Testament (Rom. 6:4-5, 13; Eph. 2:1,5-6; Col. 2:13). Christ then explains the future resurrection as the resurrection which occurs at His second coming ?the hour is coming in which all who are in the graves will hear His voice and come forth?those who have done good, to the resurrection of life, and those who have done evil, to the resurrection of condemnation? (John 5:28-29). At this resurrection those who believe in Christ and took part in the first resurrection are physically raised to life, while those who rejected Christ are raised unto the second death; so according to Scripture the righteous take part in one death and two resurrections while the unrighteous take part in one resurrection and two deaths. This second resurrection takes place at the end of the thousand years (Rev. 20:13).

dblev