One Rapture or Two?

[PreacherBen]

Dearest Board Brethren,

As some of you know, I am not convinced regarding the pre-tribulation rapture. I know all the scriptures used to teach pre-trib rapture, having been in IFB churches for over 15 years and having graduated from an IFB college. However, this is the question I have and I ask it in sincerity: Could you please show me the scripture or scriptures that teach that there are two raptures. Namely, Rapture One, at the beginning of the tribulation for all the saved, and Rapture Two at the end of the tribulation for the Tribulation Saints.

The reason I ask is the Bible only teaches that there are two resurrections: The Resurrection of the Righteous, just before the 1000 year kingdom,( I'm with you on that,) and Resurrection Two, of the ungodly at the Great White Throne Judgment.

#1 Rev 20:6 Blessed and holy [is] he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years.

#2 Rev 20:13 And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works.

Here is the problem if the scripture teaches there are only two resurrections and the righteous go up in the first, then it only makes sense that all the righteous are not tallied up yet until the end of the tribulation (including the tribulation saints.) According to the scriptures used to teach the rapture, i.e.

1Th 4:15 For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive [and] remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep.
1Th 4:16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:
1Th 4:17 Then we which are alive [and] remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.

I would appreciate your input because I am in the midst of serious study of end time events and want scripture that establishes belief rather that belief that manipulates scripture.

Bro. Ben

[Guest Guest]

Good afternoon, PreacherBen. The only advice that I can give you is to challege those questions that you were aksed in IFB college. Also, challege the answers that were given, as well.

My hubby will be starting back at the Bible Institute on September 8th. I have 2 full sheets of paper on my desk with 101 Questions Concerning the Future. BIBLE PROPHECY. The Bible Institute was only able to touch on a certain number of topics...so far. As you know, it is an extensive study. I only attended last Fall. My hubby has attended all sessions so far.

BTW, my pastor is originally from Cleveland, Tennessee. He is quite familiar with Murfreesboro, TN. :smile

[PreacherBen]

No problem on the double post, I think you can extract one of them. I have never been to Cleveland, but I know Rock of Ages Prison Ministry is based out of there. I have actually moved to Columbia, TN now. We bought property back in 2005 and have been building.

I do ask these questions for that very purpose. I have some differences of opinion now, but I am also open to scripture...it IS right!

Ben

[Calvary]

There are two raptures. One before the time of Jacob's trouble and one in the mid point of that time period.

That is where much confusion has been done, by making all the references apply to only one catching away, folks have put the church in the middle trib point rapture.

Do some more homework before you come back and ask for the verses. You have the verses. You simply need to place them at the right junctures.

God bless,

Calvary

[Guest Guest]

We support "Rock of Ages" prison ministry.


I will also keep you updated, as well...if you want. I only have a couple of more things to post. However, these 101 Questions Concerning the Future...BIBLE PROPHECY, are really something. I am sure that my hubby is going to be learning much more thoughout the next 2-3 years. The thread I posted only "cracked the surface."

[Guest Guest]

The reason I ask is the Bible only teaches that there are two resurrections: The Resurrection of the Righteous, just before the 1000 year kingdom,( I'm with you on that,) and Resurrection Two, of the ungodly at the Great White Throne Judgment

Well, we know that Christ is the resurrection and the life, and that he can resurrect anyone at any time he chooses. I don't think you can limit either resurrections or raptures with scripture. There are a number of cases of both happening already.

Concerning other resurrections we have this OT prophecy:

"Isaiah 26:19 Thy dead men shall live, together with my dead body shall they arise. Awake and sing, ye that dwell in dust: for thy dew is as the dew of herbs, and the earth shall cast out the dead."

Fulfilled here:

"Matthew 27:52-53 And the graves were opened; and many bodies of the saints which slept arose, And came out of the graves after his resurrection, and went into the holy city, and appeared unto many."

Then we have all the people that Jesus brought back to life during his time on earth, Lazarus, the 12 year old girl, etc. We also have the two witnesses brought back to life in the book of Revelation. All those are resurrections...

Then we have the fact that both Enoch and Elijah were raptured... So... it doesn't seem like we can set a definite scriptural limit on either resurrections or raptures...

[Guest Guest]

I believe that there are three Resurrections of the Righteous: as Seth pointed out, the "firstfruits" was at Christ's crucifixion, the "harvest" will be the Rapture of the Church, and the "gleanings" will be the rapture of the Tribulation Saints. It gets interesting when you couple that with five Judgments and all that other stuff! :lol

[PreacherBen]

Calvary you said:

Do some more homework before you come back and ask for the verses. You have the verses. You simply need to place them at the right junctures.

Please, bless us all with your view and place the verses in a concise way.

Seth and Princess, I know there are several resurrections spoken of in the Bible but only the two listed above in reference to the last days. Paul said:

1Cr 15:23 But every man in his own order: Christ the firstfruits; afterward they that are Christ's at his coming.
1Cr 15:24 Then [cometh] the end, when he shall have delivered up the kingdom to God, even the Father; when he shall have put down all rule and all authority and power.

According to this verse, "they that are Christ's..." will be resurrected AT his coming, "THEN cometh the end..." You see, this is what I'm talking about. I may be wrong, but the Lord sure throws some intersting verses out there in regards to timing and sequence to keep us on our toes. We should not be sold out to a theory, but to careful study and application.

[christian]

Revelation 3:10 proves the first Rapture and Luke 21:36 also proves the first rapture. But matthew 24 sais there will be another gathering of the elect when Christ returns. 1st Cor 15:51-52 sais the second rapture will happen at the Last Trumpet and there are 7 trumpets in the tribulation. :wave:

[Guest Guest]

Calvary you said:

Do some more homework before you come back and ask for the verses. You have the verses. You simply need to place them at the right junctures.


Please, bless us all with your view and place the verses in a concise way.

PreacherBen. I would like the blessing, as well...from Calvary! :fall:

[Invicta]

Revelation 3:10 proves the first Rapture and Luke 21:36 also proves the first rapture. But matthew 24 sais there will be another gathering of the elect when Christ returns. 1st Cor 15:51-52 sais the second rapture will happen at the Last Trumpet and there are 7 trumpets in the tribulation.

Well that would show that the tribulation is not future.

[Calvary]

Sounds sort of sarcastic, but my apologies if it is not.

Is 26; Psalms 50; Song 2:12-14; Proverbs 25:7; Rev 7 / 14; 1 Cor. 15:24; Psalms 68

Brethren, the question was about raptures, not resurrections. Several have already confused the two different and distinct events.

These are salient passages. I am out of the country right now, unable to access my notes. I do know however that these scriptures are key to understanding the two raptures the Bible teaches.


There are 7 resurrections, 2 raptures.

God bless,

Calvary

[Truthseeking]

Sounds sort of sarcastic, but my apologies if it is not.

Is 26; Psalms 50; Song 2:12-14; Proverbs 25:7; Rev 7 / 14; 1 Cor. 15:24; Psalms 68

Brethren, the question was about raptures, not resurrections. Several have already confused the two different and distinct events.

These are salient passages. I am out of the country right now, unable to access my notes. I do know however that these scriptures are key to understanding the two raptures the Bible teaches.


There are 7 resurrections, 2 raptures.

God bless,

Calvary

Wow, serious, 7 resurrections, Keep talking !!!!!

[Calvary]

Wow, serious, 7 resurrections, Keep talking !!!!!

Though we haven't yet dealt with the 2 raptures, I will give you some notes on the 7 resurrections.

# 1 ? The Resurrection of Jesus Christ

(1Co 15:14) And if Christ be not risen, then is our preaching vain, and your faith is also vain.

(1Co 15:15) Yea, and we are found false witnesses of God; because we have testified of God that he raised up Christ: whom he raised not up, if so be that the
dead rise not.

(1Co 15:16) For if the dead rise not, then is not Christ raised:

(1Co 15:17) And if Christ be not raised, your faith is vain; ye are yet in your sins.

(1Co 15:18) Then they also which are fallen asleep in Christ are perished.

(1Co 15:19) If in this life only we have hope in Christ, we are of all men most miserable.

His literal body came up from he grave. Jesus said in Luke 24 ? a spirit hath not flesh and bones, as ye see me have.

(1Co 15:3) For I delivered unto you first of all that which I also received, how that Christ died for our sins according to the scriptures;

(1Co 15:4) And that he was buried, and that he rose again the third day according to the scriptures:


If that isn?t true, we are dead in sins and trespasses and I have nothing by way of good news to offer you.

# 2 ? The Resurrection of the Firstfruits ? (Old Testament saints)

(1Co 15:23) But every man in his own order: Christ the firstfruits; afterward they that are Christ's at his coming.

See the plural ? firstfruits? Someone came up with him.

(Mat 27:45) Now from the sixth hour there was darkness over all the land unto the ninth hour.

(Mat 27:50) Jesus, when he had cried again with a loud voice, yielded up the ghost.

(Mat 27:51) And, behold, the veil of the temple was rent in twain from the top to the bottom; and the earth did quake, and the rocks rent;

(Mat 27:52) And the graves were opened; and many bodies of the saints which slept arose,

(Mat 27:53) And came out of the graves after his resurrection, and went into the holy city, and appeared unto many.

(Mat 27:54) Now when the centurion, and they that were with him, watching Jesus, saw the earthquake, and those things that were done, they feared greatly, saying, Truly this was the Son of God.

In the 2nd resurrection Old Testament saints rose up from the dead. Some of them went into Jerusalem and appeared to many.

# 3 ? The Resurrection of the Christian
This is a spiritual resurrection.

(Eph 2:4) But God, who is rich in mercy, for his great love wherewith he loved us,

(Eph 2:5) Even when we were dead in sins, hath quickened us together with Christ, (by grace ye are saved;)

(Eph 2:6) And hath raised us up together, and made us sit together in heavenly places in Christ Jesus:

This is Christ giving us life; we were among the dead, now we are among the living.

(Rom 6:3) Know ye not, that so many of us as were baptized into Jesus Christ were baptized into his death?

(Eph 5:14) Wherefore he saith, Awake thou that sleepest, and arise from the dead, and Christ shall give thee light.

(Rom 7:24) O wretched man that I am! who shall deliver me from the body of this death?

Every Christian is a living dead man. This should provoke you to study the dual nature of the believer.
This is the spiritual resurrection of the believer.

# 4 ? The resurrection of Israel as a nation

(Rom 11:25) For I would not, brethren, that ye should be ignorant of this mystery, lest ye should be wise in your own conceits; that blindness in part is happened to Israel, until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in.

(Rom 11:26) And so all Israel shall be saved: as it is written, There shall come out of Sion the Deliverer, and shall turn away ungodliness from Jacob:

Paul is saying plainly there will be a national resurrection of the nation of Israel.
A good cross reference would be Ezekiel 37:1-20. Much could be said about the fact that God has not done away with his people, but that would be another day. The body of Christ is not an extension of or part of the nation of Israel. We are not spiritual Jews and we have not entered into the New Covenant mentioned in Jeremiah 31.

# 5 ? The Resurrection/Rapture of the Church

(1Th 4:16) For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:

(1Th 4:17) Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.

(1Th 4:18) Wherefore comfort one another with these words.

These are the not the firstfruits mentioned in 1 Corinthians. This is the harvest, those that are Christ?s.
Simply put, every farmer knows this basic truth about sowing. A farmer sows the seed. It brings forth a crop. There is always a part of the crop ready for reaping, or it will spoil on the vine. That is the firstfruits. Then the general harvest comes. Just about the entire crop is harvested and there is always a little bit left on the vine that was not ready. A while later the farmer returns for the gleanings. There are 3 parts to the general resurrection. # 5 is the general harvest of the NT church.

# 6 ? The Mid Tribulation Resurrection


(Rev 11:5) And if any man will hurt them, fire proceedeth out of their mouth, and devoureth their enemies: and if any man will hurt them, he must in this manner be killed.

(Rev 11:6) These have power to shut heaven, that it rain not in the days of their prophecy: and have power over waters to turn them to blood, and to smite the earth with all plagues, as often as they will.

(Rev 11:7) And when they shall have finished their testimony, the beast that ascendeth out of the bottomless pit shall make war against them, and shall overcome them, and kill them.

(Rev 11:8) And their dead bodies shall lie in the street of the great city, which spiritually is called Sodom and Egypt, where also our Lord was crucified.

(Rev 11:9) And they of the people and kindreds and tongues and nations shall see their dead bodies three days and an half, and shall not suffer their dead bodies to be put in graves.

(Rev 11:10) And they that dwell upon the earth shall rejoice over them, and make merry, and shall send gifts one to another; because these two prophets tormented them that dwelt on the earth.

(Rev 11:11) And after three days and an half the Spirit of life from God entered into them, and they stood upon their feet; and great fear fell upon them which saw them.

(Rev 11:12) And they heard a great voice from heaven saying unto them, Come up hither. And they ascended up to heaven in a cloud; and their enemies beheld them.


These are the 2 witnesses. Their fruit are the 144,000 Jews that get saved during the Time of Jacob?s Trouble. Did you notice the voice from heaven saying ?Come up Hither??

This is the mid point of the tribulation period. Moses and Elijah are resurrected and are caught up to heaven.

In Revelation 7 we are introduced to 144,000 and a great multitude that no man could number. (I believe there will be more folks saved during the tribulation period than we could imagine). They are presented to us as being on the earth.

In Revelation 14 this group is now in heaven. Not only did Moses and Elijah go up to heaven, but the martyred saints from the tribulation did as well. I also believe this indicates a mid point tribulation appearance of the Lord Jesus to Israel. (Again, another day, another study)

# 7 The Unsaved Dead

(Rev 20:11) And I saw a great white throne, and him that sat on it, from whose face the earth and the heaven fled away; and there was found no place for them.

(Rev 20:12) And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is the book of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works.

(Rev 20:13) And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works.

(Rev 20:15) And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire.

Remember what I said about the firstfruits, the harvest, and the gleanings? Come up hither, come up hither, come up hither. The Bible sues this phrase 3 times and each one refers to one of these parts of the general resurrection.

These are the unsaved dead. Read Matthew 22 will help you see the condition of unsaved men at the great White throne, although doctrinally it is speaking about the end of the trib.

7 resurrections are found in the Bible.

God bless,

Calvary

[Guest Guest]

#1 I can agree with. :Green #2 I am begining to think may be speaking of some believers who had died recently coming back to life in their carnal bodies(think something like lazarus). At one point I thought that it might be close to what you are saying but recently after study I am coming to view that as less and less likely. Not 100% sure, but I am finding your view more and more doubtful because it seems to mesh so poorly with the rest of scripture.

#3 and # 4 are something of a stretch. They are resurrections of course but not physical resurrections. If your going to count spiritual resurrections as part of "the seven resurrections" then why shouldn't you count the resurrection that takes place every time someone gets saved as an individual resurrection rather than lumping it under "the resurrection of the Christian" just to come up with the number seven.

#5 is the rapture/resurrection of the just. This is the one most spoken of in scripture I believe. That is when ALL believers up to that time will get their glorified bodies. IT is THE resurrection of scripture so to speak.

In regards to your #6, it only involves the two witnesses and you are only guessing that they are Moses and Elijah. It MIGHT be Moses and Elijah, but it can't be proved. It is something that there may be some indications for, but no biblical proof.

Your #7 I agree with you on. :Green

Lastly, where would you put those who were resurrected at various points throughout scripture, the boy Elijah raised, the dead man who was thrown into Elisha's grave, the many people Jesus raised to life, the fellow who fell down from the third loft while Paul was preaching, as well as likely Paul himself, etc. They don't fit real well into just those "seven resurrections" as far as I can see, and they would raise your count quite a bit.

I think this is the key:

"John 11:25 Jesus said unto her, I am the resurrection, and the life: he that believeth in me, though he were dead, yet shall he live:"

Christ IS the resurrection and the life, as such he can raise anyone at any time, and I believe scripture has shown that he does. I do not believe you can put a biblical limit on resurrections any more than you can put a biblical limit on miracles. :Green