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Question on the 144,000


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Some ladies and I are reading through Revelation.  Today I was reading chapters 6 and 7 and it specified the tribes of Israel the 144,000 comes from.  I found it curious that the tribes mentioned were slightly different from the Old Testament.  Evidently Dan and Ephraim were left out, and Joseph was included (when Manassas and Ephraim, his sons, had been designated in his place and Levi's in land)  Just wondering why the change.  I figure there must be some proclamation in the Old Testament I must be missing as to why this happened....

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Some ladies and I are reading through Revelation.  Today I was reading chapters 6 and 7 and it specified the tribes of Israel the 144,000 comes from.  I found it curious that the tribes mentioned were slightly different from the Old Testament.  Evidently Dan and Ephraim were left out, and Joseph was included (when Manassas and Ephraim, his sons, had been designated in his place and Levi's in land)  Just wondering why the change.  I figure there must be some proclamation in the Old Testament I must be missing as to why this happened....

First, in the Old Testament there are 13 tribes of Israel, not 12.  Jacob-Israel has 12 sons, but then Jacob-Israel took Joseph's 2 sons in Joseph's place, making Joseph equivalent to 2 tribes, rather than just 1 tribe.  Thus we have 13 total tribes.

Second, in Revelation 7 since the tribe of Manasseh (one of Joseph's 2 sons) is specifically mentioned, but Ephraim is not, yet Joseph is mentioned instead, Joseph's name is being used in the place of Ephraim's name to represent the tribe of Ephraim.

Third, why Dan is left out . . . ?????  I am not certain on that point.

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what i was trying to say was that there were only 12 tribes that had land designated to them -- Levi served in the temple and didn't have land, though i think the cities of refuge were designated to them?

Fully correct.

However, why the tribe of Levi is included in the 144,000 and the tribe of Dan is not included remains uncertain.

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Just now I looked through all of the passages wherein the tribe of Dan is specifically mentioned.  I still cannot find an answer as to why the tribe of Dan is not included among the 12 tribes for the 144,000.  In fact, in Ezekiel 47-48 Dan is included for both a land promise and a gate name (see Ezekiel 48:30-35).

However, I did find an answer to a question that I had concerning the 12 gates and the 12 names over the gates of the New Jerusalem.  I have often wondered which of the 13 tribes of Israel will not be included.  Now, I know - none of them will, but Manasseh and Ephraim will be recombined under Joseph's name (as per Ezekiel 48:30-35).

Edited by Pastor Scott Markle
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The list of tribes in Genesis 29-30, Numbers 1 and Revelation 7 are all different.

We can also notice how the two sons of Joseph are often referred to as "half tribes". Which, if Ephraim and Manasseh are each counted only as half, that would make the two of them together one, giving us 12 rather than 13 tribes. Yet even with that consideration, it doesn't solve the differences of tribe listings between Genesis, Numbers and Revelation.

(good topic!)

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Ge 49:16 Dan shall judge his people, as one of the tribes of Israel.
Ge 49:17 Dan shall be a serpent by the way, an adder in the path, that biteth the horse heels, so that his rider shall fall backward. 

 

Judges 18:1 In those days there was no king in Israel: and in those days the tribe of the Danites sought them an inheritance to dwell in; for unto that day all their inheritance had not fallen unto them among the tribes of Israel. 

Judges 18:30 And the children of Dan set up the graven image: and Jonathan, the son of Gershom, the son of Manasseh, he and his sons were priests to the tribe of Dan until the day of the captivity of the land. 

1 Kings 12:29 And he set the one in Bethel, and the other put he in Dan. 

Amos 8:14 They that swear by the sin of Samaria, and say, Thy god, O Dan, liveth; and, The manner of Beersheba liveth; even they shall fall, and never rise up again. 

 

It is my opinion that Dan is excluded from the list in Revelation 7 because they were the first tribe to go wholesale into idolatry.  Further, they were leaders in the idolatrous revolt against the worship of Jehovah.  I realize the list of verses I provided is a bare-bones outline, but if you are willing to put some more research and thought into this line of thinking I believe you will understand my position.  When a person studies the depths of depravity idolatry brings a person to, that person will begin to understand why God hates it so much.  It is not only that idolatry takes away from the worship of the true God, but it encourages all manner of immorality and unspeakable things.  Our God is gracious enough to couch that immorality in appropriate terms for us so as not to defile the innocent among us, but we adults should be able to grasp the significance of it.  Leviticus 18 is most instructive in regards to the gross immorality that accompanies idolatry.  Pay close attention to the last several verses.

 

My opinion.  Hope it helps.

 

In Christ,

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Ge 49:16 Dan shall judge his people, as one of the tribes of Israel.
Ge 49:17 Dan shall be a serpent by the way, an adder in the path, that biteth the horse heels, so that his rider shall fall backward. 

 

Judges 18:1 In those days there was no king in Israel: and in those days the tribe of the Danites sought them an inheritance to dwell in; for unto that day all their inheritance had not fallen unto them among the tribes of Israel. 

Judges 18:30 And the children of Dan set up the graven image: and Jonathan, the son of Gershom, the son of Manasseh, he and his sons were priests to the tribe of Dan until the day of the captivity of the land. 

1 Kings 12:29 And he set the one in Bethel, and the other put he in Dan. 

Amos 8:14 They that swear by the sin of Samaria, and say, Thy god, O Dan, liveth; and, The manner of Beersheba liveth; even they shall fall, and never rise up again. 

 

It is my opinion that Dan is excluded from the list in Revelation 7 because they were the first tribe to go wholesale into idolatry.  Further, they were leaders in the idolatrous revolt against the worship of Jehovah.  I realize the list of verses I provided is a bare-bones outline, but if you are willing to put some more research and thought into this line of thinking I believe you will understand my position.  When a person studies the depths of depravity idolatry brings a person to, that person will begin to understand why God hates it so much.  It is not only that idolatry takes away from the worship of the true God, but it encourages all manner of immorality and unspeakable things.  Our God is gracious enough to couch that immorality in appropriate terms for us so as not to defile the innocent among us, but we adults should be able to grasp the significance of it.  Leviticus 18 is most instructive in regards to the gross immorality that accompanies idolatry.  Pay close attention to the last several verses.

 

My opinion.  Hope it helps.

 

In Christ,

Beat me to it.

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It is my opinion that Dan is excluded from the list in Revelation 7 because they were the first tribe to go wholesale into idolatry.  Further, they were leaders in the idolatrous revolt against the worship of Jehovah.  I realize the list of verses I provided is a bare-bones outline, but if you are willing to put some more research and thought into this line of thinking I believe you will understand my position.  When a person studies the depths of depravity idolatry brings a person to, that person will begin to understand why God hates it so much.  It is not only that idolatry takes away from the worship of the true God, but it encourages all manner of immorality and unspeakable things.  Our God is gracious enough to couch that immorality in appropriate terms for us so as not to defile the innocent among us, but we adults should be able to grasp the significance of it.  Leviticus 18 is most instructive in regards to the gross immorality that accompanies idolatry.  Pay close attention to the last several verses.

I dug out a commentary and it also indicated that while there is no dogmatic answer he suspected it had to do with their idolatry.  That seems to be the consensus :)   Thanks so much, guys!

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Ge 49:16 Dan shall judge his people, as one of the tribes of Israel.
Ge 49:17 Dan shall be a serpent by the way, an adder in the path, that biteth the horse heels, so that his rider shall fall backward. 

 

Judges 18:1 In those days there was no king in Israel: and in those days the tribe of the Danites sought them an inheritance to dwell in; for unto that day all their inheritance had not fallen unto them among the tribes of Israel. 

Judges 18:30 And the children of Dan set up the graven image: and Jonathan, the son of Gershom, the son of Manasseh, he and his sons were priests to the tribe of Dan until the day of the captivity of the land. 

1 Kings 12:29 And he set the one in Bethel, and the other put he in Dan. 

Amos 8:14 They that swear by the sin of Samaria, and say, Thy god, O Dan, liveth; and, The manner of Beersheba liveth; even they shall fall, and never rise up again. 

 

It is my opinion that Dan is excluded from the list in Revelation 7 because they were the first tribe to go wholesale into idolatry.  Further, they were leaders in the idolatrous revolt against the worship of Jehovah.  I realize the list of verses I provided is a bare-bones outline, but if you are willing to put some more research and thought into this line of thinking I believe you will understand my position.  When a person studies the depths of depravity idolatry brings a person to, that person will begin to understand why God hates it so much.  It is not only that idolatry takes away from the worship of the true God, but it encourages all manner of immorality and unspeakable things.  Our God is gracious enough to couch that immorality in appropriate terms for us so as not to defile the innocent among us, but we adults should be able to grasp the significance of it.  Leviticus 18 is most instructive in regards to the gross immorality that accompanies idolatry.  Pay close attention to the last several verses.

 

My opinion.  Hope it helps.

 

In Christ,

That's the most prominent view I've heard put forth on this, as well as the most reasonable of the various views I've heard/read. From my own study of the matter, if the above isn't the reason, then I think it's a mystery because the other views I've looked at don't seem plausible.

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