Pastoral Qualifications and Rebellious Posterity.

[Jordan Kurecki]

So my basic question is, is a Pastor who has an adult child that goes astray unqualified for the Pastorate?

I have some verses in mind with questions for each one:

1.Pro 22:6  Train up a child in the way he should go: and when he is old, he will not depart from it. 

According to this verse, it would imply that if we do what's right with our children, they will not depart from the faith. What other possible ways are there that we could interpret this without being in unbelief?

2. Titus 1:6  If any be blameless, the husband of one wife, having faithful children not accused of riot or unruly. 

a few questions first. Is a man blameless if he has an adult child that goes astray? and second does the phrase "faithful children" only refer to young children? or does it mean all the immediate posterity that one has?

3. 1Ti 3:2  A bishop then must be blameless, the husband of one wife, vigilant, sober, of good behaviour, given to hospitality, apt to teach;

Again, is a pastor blameless who has an adult child that completely rebels and goes to the world

4. 1Ti 3:4  One that ruleth well his own house, having his children in subjection with all gravity; 
1Ti 3:5  (For if a man know not how to rule his own house, how shall he take care of the church of God?) 

Is "his own house" here referring to his household or those who are physically only living under his roof? is he relieved of them once they leave the house? 

Edited August 28, 2015 by Jordan Kurecki

[MountainChristian]

And it came to pass, when Samuel was old, that he made his sons judges over Israel........................And his sons walked not in his ways, but turned aside after lucre, and took bribes, and perverted judgment......................Then all the elders of Israel gathered themselves together, and came to Samuel unto Ramah, And said unto him, Behold, thou art old, and thy sons walk not in thy ways: now make us a king to judge us like all the nations.............................And the LORD said unto Samuel, Hearken unto the voice of the people in all that they say unto thee: for they have not rejected thee, but they have rejected me, that I should not reign over them.

[Jordan Kurecki]

And it came to pass, when Samuel was old, that he made his sons judges over Israel........................And his sons walked not in his ways, but turned aside after lucre, and took bribes, and perverted judgment......................Then all the elders of Israel gathered themselves together, and came to Samuel unto Ramah, And said unto him, Behold, thou art old, and thy sons walk not in thy ways: now make us a king to judge us like all the nations.............................And the LORD said unto Samuel, Hearken unto the voice of the people in all that they say unto thee: for they have not rejected thee, but they have rejected me, that I should not reign over them.

I am sorry but I don't see what your point is?

Is your point that Samuel didn't properly train his children and it affected the people's view of God? 

 

[OLD fashioned preacher]

My son married and they "became one flesh". That man and woman are now a picture of Christ and the church. They (and any children they may later have) are his household not mine. If they were of my household then I, in ruling my house, could lay out household standards , expectations and requirements for him, his wife and children.

[heartstrings]

1 Samuel 3

11And the LORD said to Samuel, Behold, I will do a thing in Israel, at which both the ears of every one that heareth it shall tingle. 12In that day I will perform against Eli all things which I have spoken concerning his house: when I begin, I will also make an end. 13For I have told him that I will judge his house for ever for the iniquity which he knoweth; because his sons made themselves vile, and he restrained them not. 14And therefore I have sworn unto the house of Eli, that the iniquity of Eli's house shall not be purged with sacrifice nor offering for ever.

 

Eli, was not a "Bishop"; he was a priest, But the principle is the same. The sons of Eli were already grown and married when God judged them and their father.  but God did hold him responsible for what his grown sons were doing.

[OLD fashioned preacher]

If my son is the song director or a Sunday School teacher and is doing as described above then I would say it applies. If they are in another church then I would say this is a misplaced example.

[trapperhoney]

1 Samuel 3

11And the LORD said to Samuel, Behold, I will do a thing in Israel, at which both the ears of every one that heareth it shall tingle. 12In that day I will perform against Eli all things which I have spoken concerning his house: when I begin, I will also make an end. 13For I have told him that I will judge his house for ever for the iniquity which he knoweth; because his sons made themselves vile, and he restrained them not. 14And therefore I have sworn unto the house of Eli, that the iniquity of Eli's house shall not be purged with sacrifice nor offering for ever.

 

Eli, was not a "Bishop"; he was a priest, But the principle is the same. The sons of Eli were already grown and married when God judged them and their father.  but God did hold him responsible for what his grown sons were doing.

But in this instance they were priests functioning under the authority of Eli.  He was responsible for dealing with their behavior, not necessarily as sons, but as priests under his authority and he did not do that, he turned a blind eye to what they were doing. He does seem to exhibit a permissive behavior towards his sons that possibly contributed to their behavior as adults, but I think God was holding him responsible for not dealing with priests under his authority and therefore bringing shame on the office.

[heartstrings]

Sounds reasonable; them being Levites, bound to the priesthood.

[Pastor Scott Markle]

Brethren,

I have entered this discussion because Brother Kurecki, through a private message, has specifically requested that I might do so.  To begin I would provide the warning that I do not necessarily hold to the commonly accepted position on this matter.

 

So my basic question is, is a Pastor who has an adult child that goes astray unqualified for the Pastorate?

In the two Biblical listings of qualifications for pastoral leadership (1 Timothy 3:1-7 & Titus 1:5-9), there are two specific references to the qualification of a pastoral leader in relation to his children, as follows:

1 Timothy 3:4-5 – “One that ruleth well his own house, having his children in subjection with all gravity; (For if a man know not how to rule his own house, how shall he take care of the church of God?)”

Titus 1:6 – “If any be blameless, the husband of one wife, having faithful children not accused of riot or unruly.”

Grammatically and precisely, these two passages present two different qualifications for a pastoral leader in relation to his children.  Grammatically, 1 Timothy 3:4-5 employs the active verb “ruleth” concerning the pastoral leader’s relationship toward his household and his children.  Even so, the pastoral leader is required actively to rule his own household well, that is – in accord with the precepts and principles of God’s Holy Word concerning good, godly leadership in the home (including his leadership responsibility over both his wife and his children).  In addition, and as a sub-point (which is signaled by the participial phrase that begins with the participle “having”) to this “ruling-well” responsibility and qualification, the pastoral leader is required actively to have (authoritatively to maintain) his children in a position of subjection to his authority.  (Note: Grammatically, the preposition phrase “with all gravity” could either modify the verb “having,” in which case it would be a requirement for the attitude by which the father handles his authority over his children, or could modify the noun “subjection,” in which case it would be a requirement for the attitude that the father should be instilling in his children to have toward his authority.  At present, I myself lean toward the second option.)  

As such, the qualification of 1 Timothy 3:4-5 sets its focus upon how the pastoral leader actively engages in the responsibility of leading his household and of having his children in a right relationship toward his God-given authority over them and the household.  Even so, this qualification can only be speaking toward a case wherein the pastoral leader actually has parental leadership over his children while they are yet a part of his household.  Once an adult son leaves the home to become his own man, or once an adult daughter has been given in marriage to a husband, this qualification would no longer have application; for in such cases these children would no longer be under the father’s leadership and rulership authority.

On the other hand, the qualification of Titus 1:6 sets its focus differently.  In Titus 1:6 the focus is not upon the character of the father’s leadership and rulership over his household and his children, but is upon the character of the children themselves.  Titus 1:6 indicates that a pastoral leader must have (possess) a certain type of children who themselves possess a certain type of character.  Even so, there are three characteristics that must be true concerning the pastoral leader’s children, with one of them being positive (what ought to be so) and with two of them being negative (what ought not to be so).  First, positively the pastoral leader’s children should be characterized as “faithful children.”  Now, the most basic meaning for this characteristic is that they are believing children, children who have placed faith in Christ for salvation.  The more extensive meaning for this characteristic would include faithfulness in God-given responsibilities as a believer.  Second, negatively the pastoral leader’s children should not be accused of riotous living (that is – literally, of an “unsaved”-like lifestyle).  Such would have been the living of the “prodigal son” (see Luke 15:13); and such would include a drunken lifestyle, a fornicating lifestyle, an utterly covetous (worldly) lifestyle, etc. (see Proverbs 23:20-21; 28:7; Romans 13:13; 1 Peter 4:3-4; 1 Corinthians 5:11).  Third, negatively the pastoral leader’s children should not be unruly (that is – literally, “unsubmissive” and rebellious against God-given authority). 

So then, at what point does this qualification apply unto the pastoral leader’s children?  Since God’s Word appears to teach that a riotous lifestyle and an unruly behavior are more applicable to the realm of adulthood, than to the realm of childhood, I myself would contend that this qualification specifically is to be applied unto the pastoral leader’s children when they are in their adulthood, even after they are no longer in the household and under his authority.  Indeed, I would contend that this qualification is not focused upon the nature of the father’s active authority over his household and his children, but is focused upon the character of his children after the years of their upbringing is completed.

[OLD fashioned preacher]

So then (not to be argumentative) you would say that a man who gets saved at some point in life after his lost child/children are out of the house will not be eligible later to pastor?

Edited August 28, 2015 by OLD fashioned preacher

[Pastor Scott Markle]

So then (not to be argumentative) you would say that a man who gets saved at some point in life after his lost child/children are out of the house will not be eligible later to pastor?

Brother "Old Fashioned Preacher,"

(Not to be argumentative back) I am just seeking to present the passage as it is delivered in Scripture.  

Certainly, I recognize that a precise application thereof might result in a cry -- "Not fair, not fair!"

Edited to add -- I am also willing to consider "balancing" passages on the subject, if any are legitimately presented.

Edited August 28, 2015 by Pastor Scott Markle

[Salyan]

A riotous lifestyle and unruly living is also typical of many teenagers - these would be under the parents' roof and not adults out on their own.

[Pastor Scott Markle]

A riotous lifestyle and unruly living is also typical of many teenagers - these would be under the parents' roof and not adults out on their own.

Indeed.  However, I would contend that this scenario is not the central point of the passage for the following reasons:

1.  God's Word does not speak of "teenagers" as if they are some separate group from the category of "children."
2.  God's Word does not speak of a riotous lifestyle and unruly behavior as being primarily a "teenager" problem, but as being an adulthood problem.

On the other hand, if a pastoral leader's teenaged children are engaging in a riotous lifestyle and in unruly behavior, and if he is not engaging Biblically in his God-given role of rulership over them so as to discipline them adequately and so as to disciple them spiritually, then he would be disqualified under both passages of qualification.

[wretched]

So my basic question is, is a Pastor who has an adult child that goes astray unqualified for the Pastorate? NO

I have some verses in mind with questions for each one:

1.Pro 22:6  Train up a child in the way he should go: and when he is old, he will not depart from it.  WHATs THIS HAVE TO DO WITH SALVATION?

According to this verse, it would imply that if we do what's right with our children, they will not depart from the faith. What other possible ways are there that we could interpret this without being in unbelief?

2. Titus 1:6  If any be blameless, the husband of one wife, having faithful children not accused of riot or unruly. CHILDREN means 13 and younger in Scripture (EVERYWHERE)

a few questions first. Is a man blameless if he has an adult child that goes astray? and second does the phrase "faithful children" only refer to young children? or does it mean all the immediate posterity that one has?

3. 1Ti 3:2  A bishop then must be blameless, the husband of one wife, vigilant, sober, of good behaviour, given to hospitality, apt to teach; NOTHING TO DO WITH CHILDREN

Again, is a pastor blameless who has an adult child that completely rebels and goes to the world

4. 1Ti 3:4  One that ruleth well his own house, having his children in subjection with all gravity;  CHILDREN (SEE age above)
1Ti 3:5  (For if a man know not how to rule his own house, how shall he take care of the church of God?)  HIS HOUSE? Is this grown son in his house?? If so, he is a guest at adulthood and can be morally/legally removed

Is "his own house" here referring to his household or those who are physically only living under his roof? is he relieved of them once they leave the house? 

See bolds above; Not rocket surgery folks. The absolute only reason these pastor/deacon passages confuse people is because of man's teachings/traditions about the matter that are contradictory to plainly written Scripture.

Edited August 28, 2015 by wretched

[Pastor Scott Markle]

2. Titus 1:6  If any be blameless, the husband of one wife, having faithful children not accused of riot or unruly. CHILDREN means 13 and younger in Scripture (EVERYWHERE)

See bolds above; Not rocket surgery folks. The absolute only reason these pastor/deacon passages confuse people is because of man's teachings/traditions about the matter that are contradictory to plainly written Scripture.

Brother Wretched,

First, could you provide at least a single passage of Scripture that indicates that adulthood is at the age of thirteen?

Second, I shall provide a list a Scripture passages that teaches something different, as follows:

Exodus 30:11-14 – “And the LORD spake unto Moses, saying, When thou takest the sum of the children of Israel after their number, then shall they give every man a ransom for his soul unto the LORD, when thou numberest them; that there be no plague among them, when thou numberest them.  This they shall give, every one that passeth among them that are numbered, half a shekel after the shekel of the sanctuary: (a shekel is twenty gerahs:) an half shekel shall be the offering of the LORD.  Every one that passeth among them that are numbered, from twenty years old and above, shall give an offering unto the LORD.”

Exodus 38:25-26 – “And the silver of them that were numbered of the congregation was an hundred talents, and a thousand seven hundred and threescore and fifteen shekels, after the shekel of the sanctuary: a bekah for every man, that is, half a shekel, after the shekel of the sanctuary, for every one that went to be numbered, from twenty years old and upward, for six hundred thousand and three thousand and five hundred and fifty men.”

Leviticus 27:2-7 – “Speak unto the children of Israel, and say unto them, When a man shall make a singular vow, the persons shall be for the LORD by thy estimation.  And thy estimation shall be of the male from twenty years old even unto sixty years old, even thy estimation shall be fifty shekels of silver, after the shekel of the sanctuary.  And if it be a female, then thy estimation shall be thirty shekels.  And if it be from five years old even unto twenty years old, then thy estimation shall be of the male twenty shekels, and for the female ten shekels.  And if it be from a month old even unto five years old, then thy estimation shall be of the male five shekels of silver, and for the female thy estimation shall be three shekels of silver.  And if it be from sixty years old and above; if it be a male, then thy estimation shall be fifteen shekels, and for the female ten shekels.”  (Notice the break-down of age groupse – (1) from one month to five years, (2) from five years to twenty years, (3) from twenty years to sixty years, and (4) from sixty and above.)

Numbers 1:2-3 – “Take ye the sum of all the congregation of the children of Israel, after their families, by the house of their fathers, with the number of their names, every male by their polls; from twenty years old and upward, all that are able to go forth to war in Israel: thou and Aaron shall number them by their armies.” (See also Numbers 1:18, 20, 22, 24, 26, 28, 30, 32, 34, 36, 38, 40, 42, 45)

Numbers 26:1-4 – “And it came to pass after the plague, that the LORD spake unto Moses and unto Eleazar the son of Aaron the priest, saying, Take the sum of all the congregation of the children of Israel, from twenty years old and upward, throughout their fathers’ house, all that are able to go to war in Israel.  And Moses and Eleazar the priest spake with them in the plains of Moab by Jordan near Jericho, saying, Take the sum of the people, from twenty years old and upward; as the LORD commanded Moses and the children of Israel, which went forth out of the land of Egypt.”

Numbers 32:11 – “And the LORD’S anger was kindled the same time, and he sware, saying, Surely none of the men that came up out of Egypt, from twenty years old and upward, shall see the land which I sware unto Abraham, unto Isaac, and unto Jacob; because they have not wholly followed me: save Caleb the son of Jephunneh the Kenezite, and Joshua the son of Nun: for they have wholly followed the LORD.”

1 Chronicles 23:24 – “These were the sons of Levi after the house of their fathers; even the chief of the fathers, as they were counted by number of names by their polls, that did the work for the service of the house of the LORD, from the age of twenty years and upward.” (See also 1 Chronicles 23:27)

1 Chronicles 27:23 – “But David took not the number of them from twenty years old and under: because the LORD had said he would increase Israel like to the stars of the heavens.”

2 Chronicles 25:5 – “Moreover Amaziah gathered Judah together, and made them captains over thousands, and captains over hundreds, according to the houses of their fathers, throughout all Judah and Benjamin: and he numbered them from twenty years old and above, and found them three hundred thousand choice men, able to go forth to war, that could handle spear and shield.”

2 Chronicles 31:16-18 – “Beside their genealogy of males, from three years old and upward, even unto every one that entereth into the house of the LORD, his daily portion for their service in their charges according to their courses; both to the genealogy of the priests by the house of their fathers, and the Levites from twenty years old and upward, in their charges by their courses; and to the genealogy of all their little ones, their wives, and their sons, and their daughters, through all the congregation: for in their set office they sanctified themselves in holiness:”

Ezra 3:8 – “Now in the second year of their coming unto the house of God at Jerusalem, in the second month, began Zerubbabel the son of Shealtiel, and Jeshua the son of Jozadak, and the remnant of their brethren the priests and the Levites, and all they that were come out of the captivity unto Jerusalem; and appointed the Levites, from twenty years old and upward, to set forward the work of the house of the LORD.”