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I just wanted to add that I hadn't realized there were so many qualifications for the pastorate. It shows that God is serious about this position and it shouldn't be taken lightly by those who are pastors or who are thinking of becoming a pastor. In regards to the 2nd point that was brought up, that line of reasoning could actually be applied to all of the 15 of the listed qualifications, all you have to say is: "well, God/the Bible doesn't specifically mentioned my unique circumstances, so it must be okay for me. But it wouldn't be okay for so-and-so because their unique circumstances are different from mine."  This is why women are now accepted as pastors. This is why "Christian" rock music is sung in churches. This is why immorality is running rampant and accepted in churches. Because Pastors are becoming lenient. They are not taking their office seriously. They are not taking the Bible seriously. The Bible is being changed to suit the changing times (and I don't just mean the different versions, some who are KJV only will pick and choose what they want to preach and what they don't touch with a ten foot pole because they themselves might be convicted of something). The Bible does not need to spell out every little thing in our lives. We just need to understand "Thus saith the LORD." and not say "well, everything isn't all black and white. Look at this shade of gray, so pretty." while stepping closer and closer to that black area that used to be so obviously black. The Bible gives multiple warnings about this sort of thing, yet they're continuously ignored or glossed over.

"Thus saith the Lord", with regard to the 2nd point is "husband of one wife". By itself, that's clear, but add in "can't be divorced or married to a divorced woman" and now we've added to the "thus saith the Lord".

That is very different from the issue of women being accepted as pastors since Scripture is totally clear pastors are to be men: "Thus saith the Lord" using male pronouns and referring to the pastor as being a husband.

As to the other issues mentioned, the Lord didn't give us a list of qualifications for music or Bible versions/translations, those are matters we must address through other biblical means.

One of the major problems with regards to many pastors today is the lack of calling. If a man isn't called of God to be a pastor, then he shouldn't be a pastor. Yet many men (and now women) go into the pastorate for reasons other than being called of God. Some because they see it as an easy career choice; some think it's a way for them to "do good", others for various reasons. Only men called of God to be a pastor can serve properly as a pastor.

Then, somewhat coupled with the above, is the problem with the schools prospective pastors attend which are filled with unsaved teachers and professors that confuse and corrupt the minds of future pastors.

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I just wanted to add that I hadn't realized there were so many qualifications for the pastorate. It shows that God is serious about this position and it shouldn't be taken lightly by those who are pastors or who are thinking of becoming a pastor. In regards to the 2nd point that was brought up, that line of reasoning could actually be applied to all of the 15 of the listed qualifications, all you have to say is: "well, God/the Bible doesn't specifically mentioned my unique circumstances, so it must be okay for me. But it wouldn't be okay for so-and-so because their unique circumstances are different from mine."  This is why women are now accepted as pastors. This is why "Christian" rock music is sung in churches. This is why immorality is running rampant and accepted in churches. Because Pastors are becoming lenient. They are not taking their office seriously. They are not taking the Bible seriously. The Bible is being changed to suit the changing times (and I don't just mean the different versions, some who are KJV only will pick and choose what they want to preach and what they don't touch with a ten foot pole because they themselves might be convicted of something). The Bible does not need to spell out every little thing in our lives. We just need to understand "Thus saith the LORD." and not say "well, everything isn't all black and white. Look at this shade of gray, so pretty." while stepping closer and closer to that black area that used to be so obviously black. The Bible gives multiple warnings about this sort of thing, yet they're continuously ignored or glossed over.

Yea and amen! Thank you for your posting concerning the aspect of all the qualifications listed by Paul to Titus. :thumb: I agree with every word and every thought. One of the major reasons our IFB, and other churches, are lacking in holiness is due to the pulpit lacking in holiness and is full of worldy reasoning and leniency in just about all matters.

 John81 said, "One of the major problems with regards to many pastors today is the lack of calling. If a man isn't called of God to be a pastor, then he shouldn't be a pastor. Yet many men (and now women) go into the pastorate for reasons other than being called of God. Some because they see it as an easy career choice; some think it's a way for them to "do good", others for various reasons. Only men called of God to be a pastor can serve properly as a pastor.

Then, somewhat coupled with the above, is the problem with the schools prospective pastors attend which are filled with unsaved teachers and professors that confuse and corrupt the minds of future pastors. "

John81,

Thank you for very for your posting. Excellent anyalysis and correct flow of thought concerning the linkage to part of the problem is the schooling that some of these men receive. We apprecitate your comments very much.

Alan

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"Thus saith the Lord", with regard to the 2nd point is "husband of one wife". By itself, that's clear, but add in "can't be divorced or married to a divorced woman" and now we've added to the "thus saith the Lord".

Now, I believe opposite. To me, personally, "husband of one wife" has a crystal clear meaning and saying "divorced men or a man married to a divorced woman are still qualified to pastor" is adding to the Bible. You and the majority of folks here on Online Baptist disagree with me and see a gray area where because God allows divorce under some circumstances, it's perfectly okay for pastors, under some circumstances. I will not debate or discuss this anymore, as there is already a thread dedicated to that subject (and I doubt it will be a fruitful discussion as we are both firm in our belief). And since this thread is dedicated to the study of Titus, I'll not belabor the point.

As to the other things you brought out, I agree there aren't qualifications for certain standards, I was just pointing out that when a pastor doesn't take his role seriously, doesn't take the very words of God seriously, and allows certain things to slide into gray areas in his own personal life, he's leading the church down a dangerous path. So because the pastor allows certain things in his life (whatever it may be), those same or similar things start slipping quietly into the church and the pastor doesn't address them because he himself would be affected, and soon there is less and less preaching against sin and more and more acceptance of sin. Things that used to be crystal clear are now gray and God's people are confused about what is right and what is wrong. Pilate's question to Jesus is becoming commonplace among Christians today - "What is truth?" 

If God holds pastors to a higher standard than laypeople (15! qualifications!), than so should we. A pastor should be above reproach. A pastor should not lead the church God has called him to down a path that leads to sin. God will hold that pastor accountable for everything he says and does behind the pulpit and as a pastor.

#15 - Faithful to the Word. I believe this qualification is very important, but sadly becoming increasingly rare. Titus 1:9 -  "holding fast the faithful word as he hath been taught, that he may be able by sound doctrine both to exhort and to convince the gainsayers." 

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I have no intention of trying to start debate (I believe they are pointless anyway) but I wanted to state my viewpoint of this topic. For some time my husband and I been bothered by people taking "bishop" to mean "pastor."  Greek is a very precise language, and Paul was a "lawyer" before his salvation, so I believe that he chose his words very carefully.  Ephesians 4 has been cited above as "proof" that bishop and pastor is interchangeable.  However, if we look at the context (Eph. 4:8) it is clearly speaking of gifts given to the church members.  Pastors and teachers is a gift given to certain individuals for the building up of the body.  The Greek word used refers to a "shepherd."  These are people who are best suited for discipleship -- they are nurturing and able to instruct in an effective way.  Now, in Titus, the word bishop is from a Greek word meaning superintendent or overseer.  That indicates an administration type role.  Also, there is a parallel passage in 1 Timothy 3 where Paul states that the bishop is an office.  So a pastor and a bishop are not the same thing.  I do believe that for someone to hold the office of bishop they need to have the gift of pastor, but not everyone with the gift of pastor should hold the office of bishop.  I fear that because of the association of the word bishop to religions we take strong issue with -- such as the Catholic church, and the cult of the Mormons, we have "thrown the baby out with the bathwater" and have misconstrued scriptures to support our justification for not using that term.  A gift is not gender specific.  I know many women who have the "gift of pastor" -- I think it is somewhat innate to the female to be a nurturer and teacher.  I also think this is why many women mistakenly go into "pastorates" when clearly scripture indicates that the overseer of a church is to be a man.  An office can be gender specific and this one clearly is. 

My husband and I taught a class on spiritual gifts, where we took all the passages we could find dealing with those and compared and studied them very deeply and came to this conclusion for ourselves.  We realize that it is not a popular Baptist belief so we generally keep quiet about it, but I did want to put it out there for other to consider. 

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Thank you for your viewpoint.

Ephesians 4:11 and 12, "And he gave some, apostles; and some, prophets; and some, evangelists; and some, pastors and teachers; For the perfecting of the saints, for the work of the ministry, for the edifying of the body of Christ." This, in my estimation, "pastors and teachers" is clearly referring back to the office 'overseer, bishop, in 1 Timothy 3:1and 2 and Titus 1:5 and 7 as generally believed and accepted. I still accept as all three terms; bishop, elder and pastor meaning the one and the same office: commonly called pastor.  The pastor is the overseer of the church and is the office of the bishop. Due to the misuse of the word, and office of the bishop, I feel there is no harm done is using the title pastor instead of bishop.

 

 

Rebecca said,"If God holds pastors to a higher standard than laypeople (15! qualifications!), than so should we. A pastor should be above reproach. A pastor should not lead the church God has called him to down a path that leads to sin. God will hold that pastor accountable for everything he says and does behind the pulpit and as a pastor.

This statement is entirely true. The qualifications for the office of the pastor is more stingent than the qualification for the priest under the Old Testament Law. The pastor of the church will be held more accountable for the direction of the church than the members of the church.

 

 

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Hi! I'm joining in on the study a few days late (sorry).  I wanted to say it's been an excellent study so far, Alan! As far as the first thread of conversation went, my 2 cents is: 1. I'm thankful Paul was an apostle because although he did spread the gospel to the Jews, but he was also called to spread the gospel to the gentiles! In 2nd Timothy 1:11 it tells us that Paul is: " appointed a preacher, and an apostle, and a teacher of the Gentiles."  

2.  I used the words "called to spread the gospel" above because the account of how Paul came to be an apostle is quite interesting! In Acts chapter 9 Paul was on his way to Damascus, and the Lord basically knocked him to the ground and temporarily blinded him! Talk about a "wake-up call"! 

3. Paul had in the past persecuted believers and delivered them up to be killed, and other disciples were a bit wary of him... why wouldn't they be, right? But God makes it clear he CHOSE Paul in Acts 9 verse 15 the lord said of Paul: "he is a chosen vessel unto me to bear my name before the Gentiles, and kings, and the children of Israel" 

4. I tend to agree with the above interpretations about bishops being the leaders of churches, whether called pastors or other names meaning the same as the head of the church (not above the Lord, of course), that they should adhere to the biblical teachings, not to add or take anything away from the word of God.  I also agree that the bible clearly teaches that women should not be the head of a church.  I think many of the problems of today's churches stemmed from adding to or taking away from the words the bible states and after they dip their toes into the "gray areas", it then leads further and further away from the word of God.  

5. Now as to the current topic of study: false teachers and false doctrines: Paul was talking about certain people back then spreading false doctrines and he gave some characteristics of those people.  That topic is VERY relevant today... there are a slew of false teachers and false doctrines, teaching the "commandments of men" (as verse 14 states) and gullible people are following right behind them saying "Amen"!!!! There is no substitute for READING the word of God yourself and studying.  I know we are in Titus in this study, however I have to say that each one of us should be able to follow 2nd Timothy 2:15 "Study to shew thyself approved unto God, a workman that needeth not to be ashamed, rightly dividing the word of truth."  God expects us to read and study His word and not just "take someone's word" for the doctrine they teach.  I agree with Alan (and more importantly, the bible... GOD's word)  that we should call out and expose those who are teaching false doctrine. 

Thanks for including me in on this study and I hope to "get to know" others here for fellowship and study. 

 

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Ronda, Rebecca and the other Fine Ladies on Online Baptist,

Thank you very much for 'liking' the various posts! :sign0200:

I am very glad that the lessons are a blessing to you and an encouragement.

I also want to let all of the ladies on OnLine Baptist know that your comments, or any areas of discussion, are welcomed. We would enjoy your participation.

Alan 

Edited by Alan
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I have no intention of trying to start debate (I believe they are pointless anyway) but I wanted to state my viewpoint of this topic. For some time my husband and I been bothered by people taking "bishop" to mean "pastor."  Greek is a very precise language, and Paul was a "lawyer" before his salvation, so I believe that he chose his words very carefully.  Ephesians 4 has been cited above as "proof" that bishop and pastor is interchangeable.  However, if we look at the context (Eph. 4:8) it is clearly speaking of gifts given to the church members.  Pastors and teachers is a gift given to certain individuals for the building up of the body.  The Greek word used refers to a "shepherd."  These are people who are best suited for discipleship -- they are nurturing and able to instruct in an effective way.  Now, in Titus, the word bishop is from a Greek word meaning superintendent or overseer.  That indicates an administration type role.  Also, there is a parallel passage in 1 Timothy 3 where Paul states that the bishop is an office.  So a pastor and a bishop are not the same thing.  I do believe that for someone to hold the office of bishop they need to have the gift of pastor, but not everyone with the gift of pastor should hold the office of bishop.  I fear that because of the association of the word bishop to religions we take strong issue with -- such as the Catholic church, and the cult of the Mormons, we have "thrown the baby out with the bathwater" and have misconstrued scriptures to support our justification for not using that term.  A gift is not gender specific.  I know many women who have the "gift of pastor" -- I think it is somewhat innate to the female to be a nurturer and teacher.  I also think this is why many women mistakenly go into "pastorates" when clearly scripture indicates that the overseer of a church is to be a man.  An office can be gender specific and this one clearly is. 

My husband and I taught a class on spiritual gifts, where we took all the passages we could find dealing with those and compared and studied them very deeply and came to this conclusion for ourselves.  We realize that it is not a popular Baptist belief so we generally keep quiet about it, but I did want to put it out there for other to consider. 

Very interesting and seems very reasonable IMO. I am not sure of the history of why IFBs stay away from the term Bishop. I suppose the catholic association but ? There is certainly a difference between the two in Scripture.

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Hi! I'm joining in on the study a few days late (sorry).  I wanted to say it's been an excellent study so far, Alan! As far as the first thread of conversation went, my 2 cents is: 1. I'm thankful Paul was an apostle because although he did spread the gospel to the Jews, but he was also called to spread the gospel to the gentiles! In 2nd Timothy 1:11 it tells us that Paul is: " appointed a preacher, and an apostle, and a teacher of the Gentiles."  

....... 

5. Now as to the current topic of study: false teachers and false doctrines: Paul was talking about certain people back then spreading false doctrines and he gave some characteristics of those people.  That topic is VERY relevant today... there are a slew of false teachers and false doctrines, teaching the "commandments of men" (as verse 14 states) and gullible people are following right behind them saying "Amen"!!!! There is no substitute for READING the word of God yourself and studying.  I know we are in Titus in this study, however I have to say that each one of us should be able to follow 2nd Timothy 2:15 "Study to shew thyself approved unto God, a workman that needeth not to be ashamed, rightly dividing the word of truth."  God expects us to read and study His word and not just "take someone's word" for the doctrine they teach.  I agree with Alan (and more importantly, the bible... GOD's word)  that we should call out and expose those who are teaching false doctrine. 

Thanks for including me in on this study and I hope to "get to know" others here for fellowship and study. 

 

Ronda,

Thank you very much for joining the discussion. Anytime you want to add your  :twocents: to the discussion please feel free to do so. Thank you for the hearty Amen!

Also, you are correct, it is  very relevant in our day and age, and it is still the responsibility of the man of God, ye, every student of the scriptures, to expose false doctrine.

Wretched,

Thank you for your comments.

Alan

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Very interesting and seems very reasonable IMO. I am not sure of the history of why IFBs stay away from the term Bishop. I suppose the catholic association but ? There is certainly a difference between the two in Scripture.

Thank you, wretched, for your thoughts.  While not looking for debate, I am interested in other's thoughts/reactions to my opinion.  I appreciate your response.

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Chapter 2

Sound Doctrine

      Verse 1, “But speak the things, which become sound doctrine.”

Paul is continuing his theme from 1:9, “Holding fast the faithful word as he hath been taught, that he may be able by sound doctrine both to exhort and to convince the gainsayers.”

1 Timothy 4:16, “Take heed unto thyself, and unto the doctrine; continue in them: for in doing this thou shalt both save thyself, and them that hear thee.” A heart belief in sound doctrine is able to save the soul from hell.

After a person is saved he needs to know and believe sound doctrine. Why? Sound doctrine, from the Bible, will give the person true security, a solid foundation for life, personal holiness, good works before God and man, and a personal relationship with God. It is God’s desire for us to walk with Him in a personal way. In order to walk with God, we need to find out what He thinks and agree with Him. The prophet Amos said, “Can two walk together, except they be agreed?” Amos 3:3. The answer is no. To walk with God, to abide in Jesus Christ, is, first of all, to agree with what they say. Therefore, we need to agree with what God says and what is taught in the Bible. These beliefs are called doctrine.

A sincere, and heart, belief in sound doctrine produces good works and a proper relationship with God.

Some examples of sound doctrine are as follows.

     1. The Inspiration and Preservation of the Scriptures. 2 Timothy 3:16 and Psalm 12:6-8

     2. The Trinity. 1 Timothy 3:16 and 1 John 5:7

 3. A Literal Heaven. John 14:6

     4. A Literal Hell. Luke 16:19-31

     5. God Created the World in a literal Six Days. Genesis 1:1-31

     6. One True God. Deuteronomy 6:4

     7. The Literal Second Coming of Christ. Acts 1:9-11 and 1 Thessalonians 4:13-18

     8. The Sinful Nature of Man. Romans 3:23

     9. The Virgin Birth of Christ. Isaiah 7:14 and Matthew 1:23

     10. Salvation by Grace Alone. Ephesians 2:8 & 9

     11. The Atonement by Christ on the Cross for the salvation of the soul. Hebrews 10:5-19

    12. The literal restoration of the nation of Israel as foretold by the prophets of the Old Testament and confirmed in the New Testament by the Lord Jesus and Paul the Apostle. Isaiah 1:25-27, 49:5-26, Romans 11:1-5, 12, 23, 25-29 and Romans 15:8, “Now I say that Jesus Christ was a minister of the circumcision for the truth of God, to confirm the promises made unto the fathers.”

The Man of God is commanded to speak Sound Doctrine

Paul told Titus to, “...speak thou the things which become sound doctrine.” The man of God needs to know, preach and teach sound doctrine to his people in order for them to be saved and to know the truth. The Lord Jesus said, “And ye shall know the truth, and the truth shall make you free.” John 8:32. Sound doctrine will set us free from sin, self and the deceitfulness of Satan. False doctrine, through the teaching of reprobates, deceives people and will destroy and trap them for eternity in hell and will cause them to be reprobate concerning good works.

It is the responsibility of the man of God to speak (to preach), the truth concerning the whole counsel of God. Paul had related this truth to the church at Rome when he asked them this spiritual question, “...and how shall they hear without a preacher?” Romans 10:14. It is the responsibility of the man of God to preach sound doctrine in order for their hearers to know the truth concerning the things of God. Sound doctrine produces salvation and good works.

 

Edited by Alan
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Is there a difference between IFB and southern baptist? Maybe I have been away from church for so long that I just don't recognize the termonology. From what I have read on this site about IFB beliefs, it's also what I and the baptist church I attend's beliefs. Just wanting clarification. Thanks in advance.

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