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It is the Comforter or Holy Spirit in the Christian that reproves the world of sin John16:7-8. That is who letteth or restrains the Antichrist.

Um, what about these? Is the Spirit on recess every once in a while or what?

 Little children, it is the last time: and as ye have heard that antichrist shall come, even now are there many antichrists; whereby we know that it is the last time.

Who is a liar but he that denieth that Jesus is the Christ? He is antichrist, that denieth the Father and the Son.

And every spirit that confesseth not that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh is not of God: and this is that spirit of antichrist, whereof ye have heard that it should come; and even now already is it in the world.

 

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I am lost here Eric. Did you by chance give a wrong reference here? I don't see anything in these verses saying what you said.

Thank you!

Isaiah 60:1-2,19-20

GP,

Isaiah 60:1-2, 19-20

Jesus will come to Israel who sits in darkness while the rest of the world is scorched by the sun. The kingdom begins in verse 3, notice that the sun and moon do not give light to Israel but they don't withdraw or set. The kingdom of Antichrist will stay dark as judgment from God. The New Jerusalem will be over Israel in the shadow of the moon so the light of Jesus glory will shine down on Israel. The rest of the people will come to Israel to look up and see the light of Jesus. Out side the shadow of the moon the sun's light will hurt the peoples eyes.

 

Um, what about these? Is the Spirit on recess every once in a while or what?

 Little children, it is the last time: and as ye have heard that antichrist shall come, even now are there many antichrists; whereby we know that it is the last time.

Who is a liar but he that denieth that Jesus is the Christ? He is antichrist, that denieth the Father and the Son.

And every spirit that confesseth not that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh is not of God: and this is that spirit of antichrist, whereof ye have heard that it should come; and even now already is it in the world.

 

We Christians have not done a very good job at reconciling the world to God. But it will get much worse when we are gone.

Edited by Eric Stahl

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Wow, fascinating..I doubt I have ever witnessed Scripture reduced to hearsay and rumor so well. Early church writers, huh? I would ask who but the proper question is who cares?

John is the only one who uses the word Antichrist.  He also said.

1John 1:1 ¶  That which was from the beginning, which we have heard, which we have seen with our eyes, which we have looked upon, and our hands have handled, of the Word of life; 2  (For the life was manifested, and we have seen it, and bear witness, and shew unto you that eternal life, which was with the Father, and was manifested unto us;)
3  That which we have seen and heard declare we unto you, that ye also may have fellowship with us: and truly our fellowship is with the Father, and with his Son Jesus Christ. 4  And these things write we unto you, that your joy may be full.
5 ¶  This then is the message which we have heard of him, and declare unto you, that God is light, and in him is no darkness at all. See also Ch 2:7, 2:24: 3:11 . 

The reason John put strong emphasis on that which was taught from the beginning was because many departed from thefaith, following false doctrines. These he termed "antichrists".

2:18 ¶  Little children, it is the last time: and as ye have heard that antichrist shall come, even now are there many antichrists; whereby we know that it is the last time. 19  They went out from us, but they were not of us; for if they had been of us, they would no doubt have continued with us: but they went out, that they might be made manifest that they were not all of us. 20 ¶  But ye have an unction from the Holy One, and ye know all things.

They went "out from us", ie they were professing Christians. Even Scofield  said "They went out from us" that is doctrinally.

1 John 2:22-26 Who is a liar but he that denieth that Jesus is the Christ? He is antichrist, that denieth the Father and the Son. 23  Whosoever denieth the Son, the same hath not the Father: (but) he that acknowledgeth the Son hath the Father also. 24  Let that therefore abide in you, which ye have heard from the beginning. If that which ye have heard from the beginning shall remain in you, ye also shall continue in the Son, and in the Father. 25  And this is the promise that he hath promised us, even eternal life. 26  These things have I written unto you concerning them that seduce you. 

Many try to seduce us these days. The 'antichrists'  that John mentions were professing Christians, trying to seduce us with false doctrines.

 4:1 ¶  Beloved, believe not every spirit, but try the spirits whether they are of God: because many false prophets are gone out into the world. 2  Hereby know ye the Spirit of God: Every spirit that confesseth that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh is of God: 3  And every spirit that confesseth not that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh is not of God: and this is that spirit of antichrist, whereof ye have heard that it should come; and even now already is it in the world.
    4 ¶  Ye are of God, little children, and have overcome them: because greater is he that is in you, than he that is in the world. 5  They are of the world: therefore speak they of the world, and the world heareth them. 6  We are of God: he that knoweth God heareth us; he that is not of God heareth not us. Hereby know we the spirit of truth, and the spirit of error.

There were to be false teachers arising "among you."     2 Peter2: 1 ¶  But there were false prophets also among the people, even as there shall be false teachers among you, who privily shall bring in damnable heresies, even denying the Lord that bought them, and bring upon themselves swift destruction. 2  And many shall follow their pernicious ways; by reason of whom the way of truth shall be evil spoken of.  The papacy arose among the church and departed from sound doctrines.

Daniel tells us of four kingdoms.  These are usually identified as the four kingdoms of Dan 2;.  Babylon, Medo-Persia, Greece and Rome.  The last (Rome) had 10 horns.  Daniel explains the  horns.   24  And the ten horns out of this kingdom are ten kings that shall arise: and another shall rise after them; and he shall be diverse from the first, and he shall subdue three kings.  

The little horn was to be a Roman power and came from the Roman  empire..  History tells us the Roman empire broke up into 10 kings or kingdoms. These are named as the Heruli,the Suevi, Bugundians, Huns, Ostrogoths ,Visigoths, Vandals, Lombards, Franks and the Germans.  The papacy subdued or overthew three of these kings, the Heruli in 493,  Ostrogoths in 534 and Vandals in 553.

25  And he shall speak great words against the most High, and shall wear out the saints of the most High, and think to change times and laws: and they shall be given into his hand until a time and times and the dividing of time. 

No one can deny that the pope has spoken great words against the most high.  Here is just one "All the faithful of Christ by necessity of salvation are subject to the Roman Pontiff who judges all men Therefore we declare, assert, define and pronounce, that to be subject to the Roman Pontiff is to every human creature altogether necessary for salvation." Boniface VIII.

The little horn was to make war with the saints, and wear them out. Christians were persecuted by Jews, then the Empire but the most intense persecution lasting centuries was by the Papacy.  It almost wiped out the church. Certainly it wore it down.

in 2 Thess, Paul tells us of a falling away or apostasy before the man of sin was to be revealed.   The Pope could not have arisen if the apostasy had not come first.  The man of sin was to come before we gather to meet the Lord, not after.

  1 ¶  Now we beseech you, brethren, by the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, and by our gathering together unto him, 2  That ye be not soon shaken in mind, or be troubled, neither by spirit, nor by word, nor by letter as from us, as that the day of Christ is at hand.
    3 ¶  Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition; 

The falling away was to come first.

4  Who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped; so that he as God sitteth in the temple of God, shewing himself that he is God. 

The papacy has done all that.  Millions worship him at his travelling masses, Cardinals and others prostrate themselves before him and kings had to kiss his feet.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

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John is the only one who uses the word Antichrist.  He also said.

1John 1:1 ¶  That which was from the beginning, which we have heard, which we have seen with our eyes, which we have looked upon, and our hands have handled, of the Word of life; 2  (For the life was manifested, and we have seen it, and bear witness, and shew unto you that eternal life, which was with the Father, and was manifested unto us;)
3  That which we have seen and heard declare we unto you, that ye also may have fellowship with us: and truly our fellowship is with the Father, and with his Son Jesus Christ. 4  And these things write we unto you, that your joy may be full.
5 ¶  This then is the message which we have heard of him, and declare unto you, that God is light, and in him is no darkness at all. See also Ch 2:7, 2:24: 3:11 . 

The reason John put strong emphasis on that which was taught from the beginning was because many departed from thefaith, following false doctrines. These he termed "antichrists".

2:18 ¶  Little children, it is the last time: and as ye have heard that antichrist shall come, even now are there many antichrists; whereby we know that it is the last time. 19  They went out from us, but they were not of us; for if they had been of us, they would no doubt have continued with us: but they went out, that they might be made manifest that they were not all of us. 20 ¶  But ye have an unction from the Holy One, and ye know all things.

They went "out from us", ie they were professing Christians. Even Scofield  said "They went out from us" that is doctrinally.

1 John 2:22-26 Who is a liar but he that denieth that Jesus is the Christ? He is antichrist, that denieth the Father and the Son. 23  Whosoever denieth the Son, the same hath not the Father: (but) he that acknowledgeth the Son hath the Father also. 24  Let that therefore abide in you, which ye have heard from the beginning. If that which ye have heard from the beginning shall remain in you, ye also shall continue in the Son, and in the Father. 25  And this is the promise that he hath promised us, even eternal life. 26  These things have I written unto you concerning them that seduce you. 

Many try to seduce us these days. The 'antichrists'  that John mentions were professing Christians, trying to seduce us with false doctrines.

 4:1 ¶  Beloved, believe not every spirit, but try the spirits whether they are of God: because many false prophets are gone out into the world. 2  Hereby know ye the Spirit of God: Every spirit that confesseth that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh is of God: 3  And every spirit that confesseth not that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh is not of God: and this is that spirit of antichrist, whereof ye have heard that it should come; and even now already is it in the world.
    4 ¶  Ye are of God, little children, and have overcome them: because greater is he that is in you, than he that is in the world. 5  They are of the world: therefore speak they of the world, and the world heareth them. 6  We are of God: he that knoweth God heareth us; he that is not of God heareth not us. Hereby know we the spirit of truth, and the spirit of error.

There were to be false teachers arising "among you."     2 Peter2: 1 ¶  But there were false prophets also among the people, even as there shall be false teachers among you, who privily shall bring in damnable heresies, even denying the Lord that bought them, and bring upon themselves swift destruction. 2  And many shall follow their pernicious ways; by reason of whom the way of truth shall be evil spoken of.  The papacy arose among the church and departed from sound doctrines.

Daniel tells us of four kingdoms.  These are usually identified as the four kingdoms of Dan 2;.  Babylon, Medo-Persia, Greece and Rome.  The last (Rome) had 10 horns.  Daniel explains the  horns.   24  And the ten horns out of this kingdom are ten kings that shall arise: and another shall rise after them; and he shall be diverse from the first, and he shall subdue three kings.  

The little horn was to be a Roman power and came from the Roman  empire..  History tells us the Roman empire broke up into 10 kings or kingdoms. These are named as the Heruli,the Suevi, Bugundians, Huns, Ostrogoths ,Visigoths, Vandals, Lombards, Franks and the Germans.  The papacy subdued or overthew three of these kings, the Heruli in 493,  Ostrogoths in 534 and Vandals in 553.

25  And he shall speak great words against the most High, and shall wear out the saints of the most High, and think to change times and laws: and they shall be given into his hand until a time and times and the dividing of time. 

No one can deny that the pope has spoken great words against the most high.  Here is just one "All the faithful of Christ by necessity of salvation are subject to the Roman Pontiff who judges all men Therefore we declare, assert, define and pronounce, that to be subject to the Roman Pontiff is to every human creature altogether necessary for salvation." Boniface VIII.

The little horn was to make war with the saints, and wear them out. Christians were persecuted by Jews, then the Empire but the most intense persecution lasting centuries was by the Papacy.  It almost wiped out the church. Certainly it wore it down.

in 2 Thess, Paul tells us of a falling away or apostasy before the man of sin was to be revealed.   The Pope could not have arisen if the apostasy had not come first.  The man of sin was to come before we gather to meet the Lord, not after.

  1 ¶  Now we beseech you, brethren, by the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, and by our gathering together unto him, 2  That ye be not soon shaken in mind, or be troubled, neither by spirit, nor by word, nor by letter as from us, as that the day of Christ is at hand.
    3 ¶  Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition; 

The falling away was to come first.

4  Who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped; so that he as God sitteth in the temple of God, shewing himself that he is God. 

The papacy has done all that.  Millions worship him at his travelling masses, Cardinals and others prostrate themselves before him and kings had to kiss his feet.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Here are the issues I see and I appreciate the run down I really do, that clears up some things and confuses others at the same time.

1. You seem to bring down the Bible to a base form as if it written by the whims and environments of the men God chose to write it. Especially Revelation

2. You feel the need to validate Scripture by the writings of men after it was completed. This may be the worst in my opinion.

3. You can't prove your points with the Bible alone, you seem to place equal weight on the writings and history recordings of men.

Without faith it is impossible to please God. Intellectualism (pride/self-glory) is the exact opposite of faith. I fear you have allowed the sin of intellectualism to steal your faith in God's Word as written.

This is where all the whacky ideas come from and it is always of the flesh....ALWAYS

 

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Here are the issues I see and I appreciate the run down I really do, that clears up some things and confuses others at the same time.

1. You seem to bring down the Bible to a base form as if it written by the whims and environments of the men God chose to write it. Especially Revelation

2. You feel the need to validate Scripture by the writings of men after it was completed. This may be the worst in my opinion.

3. You can't prove your points with the Bible alone, you seem to place equal weight on the writings and history recordings of men.

Without faith it is impossible to please God. Intellectualism (pride/self-glory) is the exact opposite of faith. I fear you have allowed the sin of intellectualism to steal your faith in God's Word as written.

This is where all the whacky ideas come from and it is always of the flesh....ALWAYS

 

Consider carefully the overall point Invicta is making. Scripture prophecy is for OUR learning & attention - it has specific fulfilment and general fulfilment. We should ALWAYS be aware that there are many antichrists, & be prepared to recognise them from Scripture. Church history is the outworking of prophecy, though not the complete record of prophecy - God is working towards the second coming of the Lord Jesus Christ for resurrection & final judgement.

The danger of futurism is that we may not recognise antichrists as they arise, and that we may find ourselves looking in the newspapers (or the sun, moon & stars) for prophecy fulfilment. To that extent, futurism has always proved false - yesterday's papers telling yesterday's news - the history of failed prophetic interpretation, & the history of man's rebellion against God. 

In 1 Cor. 10:11 Paul writes, 11 Now all these things happened unto them for ensamples: and they are written for our admonition, upon whom the ends of the world are come.
 

He is asserting that Christians should read the history of Israel (not just prophecy) and learn the lessons from it for ourselves. 

Thanks, Invicta.

 

 

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At this time the main reason the pre-trib rapture view is coming into disfavor is due mostly to that views own most vocal proponents. Over the past several decades there has been a never ending "new" prophetic revelation, insight or occurrence proclaimed which has failed to prove true. The constant barrage of "look at this news story, this is prophetic revelation we are in the end of the end times" has worn people down.

Israel reborn in 1948: Jesus must return within 40 years. 1988 comes and goes yet no rapture.

Since Jesus didn't return by 1988 the prophecy experts point to the Israeli capture of Jerusalem in 1967; saying Jesus must return by 2007. Yet again they were wrong. That led to various debates over the meaning of "generation". Some now say a generation is 60 (not 40) years, with others claiming 100 years (which is safer for them since they will be gone before that 100 years comes about). Others dropped the whole thing and turned to other "prophetic signs".

The United Nations, NATO, Common Market, EU, North American Free Trade Agreement were all pointed to as direct signs Jesus would return very soon. "Very soon" was typically presented as literally meaning very soon, often as soon as within a year or so; at other times presented as meaning within the next few years. Again, each claim proven false.

Nearly every war America participated in during the 20th century (and now in the 21st century) was pointed to as a prophetic sign of Christ ready to appear in the clouds. For decades the Soviet Union was said to be a key part of end times prophecy...until the Soviet Union ceased to exist. Soviet leader Gorbechev's birthmark on his head was declared to be everything from a sign of the end to the actual mark of the beast! Some even used a form of numerology to declare Ronald Wilson Reagan (president of the USA at the time) to have a name equal to 666.

Saddam Hussein was declared to be the one who would rebuild Babylon. Then the First Gulf war changed that. The Iranian Khomeni was once held forth as one who would bring about the end.

Some prophecy preachers would actually take several things from every daily news cycle and declare them to be signs of the end. Many set dates without actually setting a specific date and all have proven false. Of course, those ones which did give in to setting an actual date all proved false as well.

On and on this has gone for several decades so that millions of Christians, especially in America, have been awash in this most or all their lives. It's little wonder so many have come to question the pre-trib view given the constant claims they have heard for the last 10, 20, 30, 40 or more years of their lives which have all proven false.

Some still believe in the pre-trib view to one extent or another but have become so disillusioned by the prophecy preachers they no longer even think of the end times, they avoid aspects of prophecy and the prophetic books/portions of Scripture. Some have decided they no longer know what to think on the matter of the return of Christ and the end times. Others have turned to looking at some of the other end times views and moving to one of those positions.

Whether one believes the pre-trib view to be biblically correct or not, it should be clear to see the way it's been presented over the past several decades along with the countless thousands of false predictions, it was those on the side of the pre-trib view that have done the most harm to their own position and not those of other views.

 

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John81,

I, along with a lot of other brethren, feel the same way. Along with what you mentioned the Charismatics have discredited the proper biblical view of the Second Coming of Christ to the earth as depicted in 1Thessalonians 4:13-18.

Be that as it may, the Second Coming of Christ as depicted in 1 Thessalonians 4:13-18, commonly called the Rapture, is still sound, biblical truth. Those brethren who disagree with this truth (such as the a-millennalist and others), use the sensationalism of the Charismatics, the date-setting antics of the brethren, and the disillusioned saints, to discredit the truth.

In spite of these teachers, we should not be moved from the truth of the Second Coming of Christ as depicted in 1 Thessalonians 4:13-18 

Alan

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John81,

I, along with a lot of other brethren, feel the same way. Along with what you mentioned the Charismatics have discredited the proper biblical view of the Second Coming of Christ to the earth as depicted in 1Thessalonians 4:13-18.

Be that as it may, the Second Coming of Christ as depicted in 1 Thessalonians 4:13-18, commonly called the Rapture, is still sound, biblical truth. Those brethren who disagree with this truth (such as the a-millennalist and others), use the sensationalism of the Charismatics, the date-setting antics of the brethren, and the disillusioned saints, to discredit the truth.

In spite of these teachers, we should not be moved from the truth of the Second Coming of Christ as depicted in 1 Thessalonians 4:13-18 

Alan

No. The Second Coming of Christ is NOT depicted in 1 Thessalonians 4:13-18  It is taught plainly, in unambiguous words. The "proper view" is:

For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first: Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.

It is the futurists who have discredited the truth, by teaching a secret rapture, by inventing a fantastic scenario of life on earth after the supposed rapture. 

What does Paul go on to teach?

For yourselves know perfectly that the day of the Lord so cometh as a thief in the night. For when they shall say, Peace and safety; then sudden destruction cometh upon them, as travail upon a woman with child; and they shall not escape.

But ye, brethren, are not in darkness, that that day should overtake you as a thief. Ye are all the children of light, and the children of the day: we are not of the night, nor of darkness.

No, we amillennialists use Scripture to discredit the false futurist teaching. The ungodly will NOT be "left behind" but will suffer sudden destruction.

Notice that if we had been "raptured" before the day of the Lord there would be no danger of being overtaken like thieves. We wouldn't be there. 

And if you are in ANY doubt about the second coming affecting believers & unbelievers, read the next chapter to the Thessalonians:

7 And to you who are troubled rest with us, when the Lord Jesus shall be revealed from heaven with his mighty angels, 8 In flaming fire taking vengeance on them that know not God, and that obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ: 9 Who shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord, and from the glory of his power; 10 When he shall come to be glorified in his saints, and to be admired in all them that believe (because our testimony among you was believed) in that day.

One final coming, to vindicate & glorify his saints, & inflict everlasting destruction on the unbelievers. 

 

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I would rather believe the teaching once delivered to saints rather than a new teaching that has been dreamed up in the last  years.

The church in the past has taught what I have believed.  That the Pope is Antichrist  and there is no need to look for a future Antichrist.

Some have said that the Antichrist is an individual and an atheist.  I have already addressed the latter point but on the former, he was come from the 4 kings.  These kings were all dynasties or kingdoms.  In England we have a saying when the king dies. "The king is dead, God save the king."  

I am listing some names in the church who believed such.  For most I am just listing names for the sake of space.

In about AD 1200 The Waldensians published "A treatise on the Antichrist"

Eberhard II Archbishop of Salzburg (1200-1246)

John Foxe Martyrologist gives a list of learned men between 1331 and 1360 who challenged the false claims of the pope. One Michael of Cesena who declared the pope "to be Antichrist and the church of Rome to be the whore of Babylon, drunk with the blood of the saints."

John Wyclif  "Why is it necessary to look for another Antichrist."  Wrote a book "The Mirror of Antichrist." 

The followers of Wyclif were the Lollards.  One Lord Cobham brought before King Henry V said  "As touching the pope and his spirituality, I owe him neither suit or service, forasmuch as I know him by the scriptures to be the great Antichrist, the son of perdition. This was a century before Luther.

The Lollards were active in the area where we live.   One was John Brown of Ashford.  he was burnt to death beside the River Stour in Ashford.  That is less than 20 miles from here.  

About 9 miles from here is Canterbury. There is a street there called Martyrs Fields. At the end of it is a memorial an the spot where many martyrs were burnt to death.

Walter Brute accused in 1391 of saying the Pope is Antichrist and seducer of the People.

Sir John Oldcastle (1360-1417) I think he may be the same person as Lord Cobham.  He was slowly roasted to death suspended over a fire.

John  Huss (1369-1415) Wrote a lot about the pope being Antichrist including many letters to the English Lollards burnt to death by Lake Constance.

Martin Luther

Andreas Osiander (1498-1552) 

Nicolaus von Amsdorf.

Phlipp Melanchthon (1497-1560)

John Knox (1505-1572)

Huldreich Zwingli (1484-1531)

Heinrich Bullinger (1504-1575)

Theodore Bibliander (1504-1564)

Alfonsus Conradus wrote in 1560 in a commentary on Revelation said “It is useless waiting for the coming of Antichrist in the future for he had already been revealed.

John Napier (1150-1617)

William Tyndale first translater of the NT from Greek into English, taught that the pope was Antichrist or man of sin seated in the Temple of God, that is the church, 2 Thess 2.

Nicholas Ridley (1500-1555)

John Bradford (1510-1555)

Thos. Cranmer(1489-1556)

John Hooper (1495-1556)

Thos. Becon (1511-1567)

1611  King James Bible translators wrote in their epistle of dedication that the work has given such a blow to Antichrist as will not be healed.

King James (1566-1625) believed that following the removal of the emperors, the reign of Antichrist began.

Sir Isaac Newton. (1642-1727)

Johann Albrect Bengel (1687-1725)

John Wesley (1703-1791)

I could have mentioned more, but that will do for now.

All the great  confessions of faith, say the same, The Westminster, the Savoy, the Baptist confessions The Philadelphia Confession,

The Morland Confession of the Waldensians, says in Article 8.  That Antichrtst. that man of sin. doth sit in the temple of which Christ and his apostles foretold, admonishing all the
godly, to beware of him and his errors, and not suffer themselves to be drawn aside from the truth.

As Churches were established in America, the same view of the papacy was held. Leroy E Froom said “This was the commonly aacceptedAmerican position.   Samuel Lee (1625-1691) Minister of New Bristol, Rhode Island, said “It is agreed among all maintainers of the Evangelical Church that the Roman Pontiff is Antichrist.

Roger Williams, (1603-1683) Founder of Rhode Island,pastor of the first Baptist Church in America spoke of the pope as the “pretended Vicar of Christ, on earth, who sits in the temple of God, exalting himselfabove not only all that is called God, but over the souls and conciences of his vassals, yea over the spirit of Christ…..” 

Samuel Cooper (1725-1783)

Jonathan Edwards 1703-1758) said the pope and his clergy were the powers prophesied in 2 Thess. 2 and other places.

Froom said the futurist view of an individual Antichrist was unknown amongst the protestants of North America prior the the nineteenth century.

Many Christians today have only heard futurist views and not aware that another interpretation exists.

 

 

Edited by Invicta
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On the Temple of God

2 Thessalonians 2.

1 ¶  Now we beseech you, brethren, by the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, and by our gathering together unto him, 2  That ye be not soon shaken in mind, or be troubled, neither by spirit, nor by word, nor by letter as from us, as that the day of Christ is at hand.
3 ¶  Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition; 4  Who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped; so that he as God sitteth in the temple of God, shewing himself that he is God. 5  Remember ye not, that, when I was yet with you, I told you these things?

Futurists say this refers to a future literal temple.

Covenanter says that the Catholic Church was never Christian and that the man of sin sat in the temple and was killed in the AD 70 destruction. If I understand him correctly.

The problem with both of these interpretations, is that Paul never uses "the temple of God" except to speak of the Church, never to a literal building.

1 Corr. 3:16 ¶  Know ye not that ye are the temple of God, and that the Spirit of God dwelleth in you? 17  If any man defile the temple of God, him shall God destroy; for the temple of God is holy, which temple ye are.

1 Corr. 6:19  What? know ye not that your body is the temple of the Holy Ghost which is in you, which ye have of God, and ye are not your own?

2 Corr. 6:16  And what agreement hath the temple of God with idols? for ye are the temple of the living God; as God hath said, I will dwell in them, and walk in them; and I will be their God, and they shall be my people.

Ephesians 2:19  Now therefore ye are no more strangers and foreigners, but fellow citizens with the saints, and of the household of God;
20  And are built upon the foundation of the apostles and prophets, Jesus Christ himself being the chief corner stone; 21  In whom all the building fitly framed together groweth unto an holy temple in the Lord: 22  In whom ye also are builded together for an habitation of God through the Spirit. 

See also

1 Peter 2:5  Ye also, as lively stones, are built up a spiritual house, an holy priesthood, to offer up spiritual sacrifices, acceptable to God by Jesus Christ.

15  But if I tarry long, that thou mayest know how thou oughtest to behave thyself in the house of God, which is the church of the living God, the pillar and ground of the truth.

The church is now the temple of God.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

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The amillenialist teaching is heretical and the literal, futeristic interpretation of the Book of Revelation is correct.

I suggest you do a google search for the Catholic origins of futurism and preterism, and you will find that Futurism is also  heretical.

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I based my statement on the teachings of the scriptures.

You may want to review the detailed teachings of the Second Coming as depicted in 1 Thessalonians 4:13-18 and the Revelation of the Lord Jesus Christ as depicted in Revelation 19:11-21 that I did in my  Revelation chapter 19-22 Study. None of the adverse comments given in that study by the Preterists and A-Millennialists dis-proved the literal, and futuristic, view in any manner. In fact, it was proven without a shadow of a doubt that the literal and futuristic view is the only correct view of the Book of Revelation and that the Preterist and A-Millennial beliefs are in complete error.

Here is the link to the Revelation chapter 19-22 Study: http://www.onlinebaptist.com/home/topic/23115-revelation-chapter-19-22-study/?page=1

In view of the recent comments made that most of the studies on the rapture are based on date-setters, sensationalism, and that the Preterists and A-millennialists are trying to discredit the futuristic interpretation of Revelation, I would remind the reader that during my study, (and most good independent Baptist authors that are truly fundamental,) I did not set any dates nor sensationalize the study in any manner. Almost all of the date-setters and and other wacky views of  Revelation are from the Charismatics, brethren seeking financial renumeration, and other unstable brethren.

Also, most of the writings of the true saints in the early days of the church age are not available to us in our age, and most of the saints in the early Church Age did not have the means to write commentaries. So, the scriptures remain as our guide and any interpretations written by the Catholic Church is not a reliable source of material as they believe some good beliefs and some bad beliefs and they change their beliefs on occasion.

Alan

Edited by Alan
grammer

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Finally some actual informative and interesting posts in this thread. I appreciate the contributions. It's good to see at least three different end times views put forth so folks can get at least a general understanding of each. Hopefully that will lead to direct reading and studying of Scripture to see how they stand up, or fall flat, in light of Scripture.

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Who has set dates?

Who said "It is time?"  That is the nearest that I have seen to date setting on the site.

My studies are of he scripture, and then I find that is what Christians have always believed.

 

 

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10 Things That Are Going to Happen Within 15 Days of the End of the Shemitah

 

Is a great shaking coming to America? An amazing convergence of events is going to take place during the last several weeks of September 2015.

Many are suggesting that this could indicate that something really big is about to happen. In fact, some vendors of emergency food are reporting shortages because so many people are stocking up on food and supplies in anticipation of what is coming.

And of course the list I am about to share with you is not necessarily exhaustive. There are events that are currently unknown or unanticipated that could also fall during this time frame. But without a doubt, the incredible confluence of events that we already know will happen appears to be unlike anything that we have ever experienced before.

It all starts with the end of the Shemitah year on Sept. 13. During the last two cycles, we witnessed historic stock market crashes on the very last day of the Shemitah year (Elul 29 on the Biblical calendar). For example, if you go back to Sept. 17, 2001 (which was Elul 29 on the biblical calendar), we witnessed the greatest one-day stock market crash in all of U.S. history up until that time. The Dow plunged 684 points, and it was a record that held for exactly seven years until the end of the next Shemitah cycle.

On Sept. 29, 2008 (which was also Elul 29 on the biblical calendar), the Dow plummeted 777 points, which still today remains the greatest one-day stock market crash of all time in the United States.

Now we are in another Shemitah year. It began in the fall 2014, and it ends on Sept. 13, 2015.

So will we see a stock market crash in the United States on Sept. 13, 2015?

No we will not, because that day is a Sunday. So I can guarantee there will not be a stock market crash in the U.S. on that day. But as author Jonathan Cahn has pointed out in his book on the Shemitah, we have witnessed major stock market crashes happen just before the end of the Shemitah year and we have also witnessed major stock market crashes happen within just a few weeks after the end of the Shemitah year. So we are not necessarily looking at one particular date.

And this time around, a whole bunch of critical events just happen to fall in the period of time immediately following the end of the Shemitah year.

The following are 10 things that are going to happen within 15 days of the end of the Shemitah:

Sept. 14: Rosh Hashanah

Sept. 15: The Jade Helm military exercises are scheduled to end.

Sept. 15: The 70th session of the U.N. General Assembly begins on this date. It has been widely reported that France plans to introduce a resolution that will give formal U.N. Security Council recognition to a Palestinian state shortly after the new session begins. Up until now, the U.S. has always been the one blocking such a resolution, but Barack Obama has already indicated that things may be different this time around. If alarm bells are going off in your head as you read this, then you probably already understand how significant this event could potentially be.

Sept. 20 to Sept. 26: The "World Week for Peace in Palestine Israel" sponsored by the World Council of Churches.

Sept. 21: The U.N. International Day Of Peace. Could this be the day when the U.N. Security Council resolution establishing a Palestinian state is actually adopted?

Sept. 23: Yom Kippur

Sept. 23: Pope Francis arrives at the White House to meet with Barack Obama. Some have suggested that the timing of this event is highly unusual.

Francis is the 266th pope, and he will be meeting with President Obama on the 266th day of the year, leading one Internet preacher to wonder if "something is being birthed" on that day, since 266 days is the typical human gestation period from conception to birth.

Sept. 24: The Pope addresses a joint session of the U.S. Congress.

Sept. 25 to Sept. 27: The United Nations is going to launch a brand-new sustainable development agenda called "The 2030 Agenda." The following is an excerpt from an article that I just wrote about this insidious new plan:

"If you didn't like 'Agenda 21,' then you really are not going to like 'The 2030 Agenda.'

"Next month, the United Nations is going to launch 'The 2030 Agenda' at a major conference that will be held from Sept. 25 to Sept. 27 in New York City. The pope is actually traveling to New York to deliver an address that will kick off this conference.

"Unlike Agenda 21, which primarily focused on the environment, the 2030 Agenda is truly a template for governing the entire planet. In addition to addressing climate change, it also sets ambitious goals for areas such as economics, health, energy, education, agriculture, gender equality and a whole host of other issues. As you will see below, this global initiative is being billed as a 'new universal Agenda' for humanity. If you are anything like me, alarm bells are going off in your head right about now."

Sept. 28: This is the date when the Feast of Tabernacles begins. It is also the date for the last of the four blood moons that fall on biblical festival dates during 2014 and 2015. This blood moon falls on the very first day of the Feast of Tabernacles, it will be a "supermoon," and it will be clearly visible from the city of Jerusalem. There are many that dismiss the blood moon phenomenon, but we have seen similar patterns before. For example, a similar pattern of eclipses happened just before and just after the destruction of the Jewish temple by the Romans in A.D. 70.

Many have also suggested that the Large Hadron Collider "is scheduled to perform a controversial experiment in September," but so far I have been unable to find any solid confirmation of this.

Just recently, author Jonathan Cahn released a new video in which he expressed his belief that a "great shaking is coming to America and the world." He points to the biblical pattern of desecration preceding judgment, and he is convinced that we recently witnessed a historic act of desecration here in the United States.

Many have asked Cahn whether America is headed for revival or shaking. He is convinced that revival can come out of shaking.

Personally, I believe that we will not have revival unless there is shaking.

As a nation, we have unapologetically embraced evil. We are extremely proud, arrogant, greedy and cold-hearted. I do not believe that there is any hope for our nation unless we are shaken to our core.

I am fully convinced that the months ahead are going to dramatically change life in America, but whether it happens right now or not, I am 100-percent convinced that a great shaking is coming to this nation at some point.

Michael T. Snyder is the publisher of The Economic Collapse Blog and author of The Beginning of the End.

http://www.charismanews.com/opinion/51107-10-things-that-are-going-to-happen-within-15-days-of-the-end-of-the-shemitah

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The problem is faith in God's Word as being complete and timeless. unbound by regional environment, culture or time period. To even imagine that the Word was influenced by those factors is blasphemy IMO and carries a heavy judgement at the Great White Throne.

Whether a date setter or a preterist, both are by sight and not by faith and neither idea is of God. I call none brethren who believe either way. These types believe what can be "proven" to them by sight or other resource. That is no belief (faith) at all.

It is sad to imagine it but I wonder if these types belief in the finished work of Christ is also dependent on outside corroboration? Well if parts of God's Word is dependent on outside corroboration then it is reasonable to assume that all of IT is. Without faith in God's Word, their is no faith at all.

Strange how the lost have more belief in the Divinity of the Bible than intellectual christians do.

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The problem is faith in God's Word as being complete and timeless. unbound by regional environment, culture or time period. To even imagine that the Word was influenced by those factors is blasphemy IMO and carries a heavy judgement at the Great White Throne.

Whether a date setter or a preterist, both are by sight and not by faith and neither idea is of God. I call none brethren who believe either way. These types believe what can be "proven" to them by sight or other resource. That is no belief (faith) at all.

It is sad to imagine it but I wonder if these types belief in the finished work of Christ is also dependent on outside corroboration? Well if parts of God's Word is dependent on outside corroboration then it is reasonable to assume that all of IT is. Without faith in God's Word, their is no faith at all.

Strange how the lost have more belief in the Divinity of the Bible than intellectual christians do.

Strange teaching and even stranger understanding of what others believe.

I posted a list of some who believed in the historical view aka Continuous Historical.  Many of them lived long before futurism was invented, the rest when the teaching was confined to the Catholic Church.  Futurism did not come to the protestant Church until 1826, through an Anglican.

The teaching that the Pope was Antichrist was having such an effect on the papal structure that it was shaken to the core and had not it had the power over Catholic princes getting them to implement the inquisition it would pro  Simple.  She used the Jesuits to create another doctrine. 

Francisco Ribera published a 500 page commentary on the main points of Babylon and Antichrist.  He made the first five chapters of Revelation to the first century. and the remainder  to a literal three and a half years at the end of time.  He said the Jewish temple would be built by a single individual Antichrist  who would abolish the Christian religion, deny Christ, claim to be God and conquer the World.

When Thomas Brightman (1562-1607) first saw a copy of Ribeira's book, he was indignant.  "Once they would not suffer any man to scarce touch the bible, now they produce a commentary to explain it - to point men away from the papal Antichrist."

This teaching was developed further by later Jesuits, their masterstroke was written by the Jesuit Lacunza who wrote under the false name of Juan Josefat Ben Ezra, a converted Jew.  To give this teaching  more credence amongst non Catholics it was placed on the Catholic banned list.

It was two centuries before the teaching was adopted by Protestants.  

"in Ribeira's commentary, was laid the foundation for that great structure of Futurism, built upon and enlarged by those who followed, until  it became the common Catholic position.  And then, wonder of wonders, in the nineteenth century this Jesuit scheme of interpretation came to be adopted by a growing number of Protestants, until today, Futurism, amplified and adorned with the rapture theory, has become the generally accepted belief of the Fundamentalist wing of popular Protestantism."  LeRoy E Froom, The Prophetic Faith of our Fathers. Washington Review and Herald 1945

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I know the old Baptist pastors, and some others, used to preach the pope as antichrist and the RCC as that mentioned in Revelation. While some still preach against aspects of the RCC, the message has changed to a simple pointing out of differences between them and us, with little mention anymore of the pope and RCC in connection with Revelation.

The RCC made great inroads in America and the pope became a "conservative hero" with the rise of the "Christian Right" political movement. By yoking with the RCC politically to speak out against abortion and to try and win elections, the door was thrown open for the RCC to become viewed as a partner of Christians. Reagan joining with the pope in the fight against communism further made embracing the pope and the RCC acceptable. Promise Keepers propelled this entangling alliance which spread it through many churches across America.

We are now at the point where many pastors, churches and American Christians in general accept the RCC as a Christian church, the pope as a Christian leader, and yoking with them as a good thing.

Where once Christians expected a president to hold to at least some form of "Protestant" (term used for simplicity sake) Christianity, today the so-called Christian Right willingly embraces Catholics and Mormons as fellow Christians and give them their full support.

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That is the case here as well.  Back in the 1960s I mentioned that I had seen in a book that someone had said the Pope was Antichrist, and a member of our church said "That's a terrible thing to say, I think the pope may be a true Christian." 

Of course that would never have happened if the dispensationalist teaching had not arrived.  

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